Scenario 2: What would you do?

[jrsower]

I try to come up with realistic, believable scenarios that could actually happen, nothing so unrealistic that it belongs in the I'm-a-one-man-death-dealing-force-to-be-reckoned-with category.

Here it is...

The rest of your family is away somewhere, vacation, beach, just somewhere that isn't home and you don't expect them to be coming back anytime soon. You're coming home from a quick trip to the grocery store. You have a plastic grocery bag in your left hand with whatever in it, milk, hot wings, etc. You unlock your door with your other hand and push it open. You see in your living room two men. One is unarmed (at least visibly) and holding your tv, vcr, whatever. The other (read this part carefully) is standing in front of your desk, cabinet, or whatever else you might have in your house. He has one hand in the drawer, obviously pushing things around, trying to see if there's anything worth stealing. The other hand holds a shotgun. It's hanging at his side. He's obviously in condition white since no one was home when they arrived. Both men are approx. 15 feet away and immediately turn when you push the door open.

I understand that there's a lot of unknowns at this point in the scenario. I have no idea what the two theives will do now. What I want to know is what you'd do. You have your CCW with you.

Those of you with dogs that roam the house can either sit this one out or share what you'd do if you didn't have a 300 pound Doberman with surgically removed vocal chords keeping the fort down while you're away.

[BujinZero]

With the family gone, there's nothing in the house worth getting shot for. I don't know how legal this is, but I would run to a safer place, hide, and call the police on the cell phone when I had the chance(best physical weapon you have). I would also draw the pistol in case they give chase, and if they do, I would think that justifies my shooting them.

[Lawnmower]

Two to the body, one to the head for both.

[LASur5r]

JRSower, Most scenarios are "force to be reckoned with"scenarios unless you(the reader) are out of the picture. Most of us believes that "the buck stops here," otherwise we wouldn't be regulars on this web site.

Having said that, we all vary on where we draw the line.

In your scenario, I'd draw my CCW while retreating for some good cover where I can watch the house as best I can. As soon as I get in a decent defensive position, I pull out my trusty cellphone and call for the cavalry. Stay on the cell to keep the troops posted and keep the BG's inside as best I can.

Course it's touch and go...you could have gone the other route if one of the BG's had raised his barrel of his weapon in your direction.

Some years back when I first moved into my present house, I had my house broken into 10 times in one year. So I know the feelings.
Good luck on finding your answers.

[MikeTx]

With the family gone, there's nothing in the house worth getting shot for. I don't know how legal this is, but I would run to a safer place, hide, and call the police on the cell phone when I had the chance(best physical weapon you have). I would also draw the pistol in case they give chase, and if they do, I would think that justifies my shooting them.

Since your stuff ain't worth defending, send it to me.

If I saw some bastard in my house with a gun, I'd make them stop it.

[Edward429451]

Hmmm. I'd throw the plastic bag at them while retreating and drawing my CCW. I'd seek cover, and watch the door, and wait. If I had a cell phone on I'd call 911 and fill em in, if not I would watch and wait. If they showed themselves, I'd probably drop the guy, if not, continue to wait.

[BujinZero]

Since your stuff ain't worth defending, send it to me.

Eehhh, wrong idea. Ask yourself this: is there any object (not person) in your house you would give your life for? I can't think of anything in my house worth dying for. In a situation like this, it is your goal to first minimize risk to yourself and stay safe before you try to increase the risk to your assailant(s) (like trying to shoot them). Even when the sh!t hits the fan, you can still avoid some trouble.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Retreat if I could and call 000 (911 equivalent here in Australia) with my mobile phone, which I always carry. At the same time, I would draw my pistol.

If one pointed a gun, I would be forced to run like Hell (this could very well be the better option) and if I couldn't; well, I would shoot the guy. Simple as that.

Blasting the bad guys should be a last resort I believe. Especially here in Australia.

[Master Blaster]

My alarm would be sounding loudly, already called the police, so I doubt they would be taking their time perusing my belongings.

But given the scenario: I would drop my bag and grab my G-26 which is in my pocket or my waistband depending on dress and holster selection. Pull front door partly closed in front of me as cover (solid 1.5" oak door)crouch and I would shoot the shotgun holder from behind my front door three shots, or until he was on the floor prone.

I would then shoot the TV holder.

I would call police again and advise them that the robbers were armed and now down, and being held by an armed homeowner, so please dont shoot me when you arrive.

:p

I will assume that since they have a gun my life is in immediate danger. I will not give a warning, that's for the police, my job is self defense. A man with a gun in my house he means to kill me and I fear for my life, there is no time for retreat, I will immediately open fire from behind cover. Visibly armed felon first, unarmed felon three shots or less later. repeat as needed if anyone moves.

[pbarrick]

bujinzero seems like he's on the same track as my suggestion.

Tactically, you only have two basic maneuvers. You can close distance or create distance. Do the one that makes the most sense for the given situation.

In this case, I would try to retreat to a known position of safety--back the way I came (I just cleared the area when I walked up). Then I would get to a position of cover and call for police.

You could also close and engage. Not as preferrable as retreating to cover and waiting for a LEO response but that may be the best alternative available. Which one do you take out first? The nearest. And as fast as possible. Distance may not allow you to draw first (the shotgun's potentially available much quicker than your handgun since it's not concealed), so you may have to engage hand-to-hand and earn the right to draw your gun to shoot the other guy. James Keating has an article in the latest issue of Black Belt about using a Bad Guy as mobile cover. That might be a viable option, too.

All the questions like this are situationally dependent on so many variables and there is no one "right" answer. One day you might close, the next you might retreat. Thinking these things out is definitely the best way to formulate a plan (you certainly won't figure one out spontaneously).

[Jato]

Seek cover, call the cops, monitor bad guys, memorize descriptions, engage if they come after me.

[carluminatti]

You are out gunned. One has a shotgun in hand. Even if you are able to draw and point your weapon in the same amount of time it takes to raise his shotgun he still has the advantage, and while your focused on shotgun guy, meanwhile the other guy is drawing his Lorcin. Under this situation I would move out of the house while drawing and seeking cover. If it was possible for family members to be in the house, I would throw the bag at shotgun guy while moving and drawing. Then I would fire until I either couldn't or didn't have to.

[goodcatjack]

the guy with the shotgun lost his rights by having it in my home; I'd put 2 COM etc etc.

as far as the other guy, in this state I very likely wouldn't be charged if I did shoot him, but I wouldn't unless he showed force. that's the view from the comfort of my armchair at this point. in the heat of the moment, who knows? all I do know on the given facts is what I said first, the guy with the shotgun has to go.

--alex

[Schweizer]

One of the BGs already holds a shotgun in his hand. You in contrast have your shopping bags and most likely your keys in the other hand. There's no way you'll be able to shoot the shotgunner first! If you try that you're going to experience a (maybe) heroic but certainly senseless death.
Even if something/someone was in the house that is worth dying for you better go for cover first while drawing your gun and get back immediately after you've improved your chances. You can't help anyone if you're dead! If you're sure that it is "only" about property stay in cover, call the police and wait for them to handle the situation.

[seeker_two]

Retreat.
Cover.
Call for help.
Engage if threatened.
Shoot both.

[Master Blaster]

The other hand holds a shotgun. It's hanging at his side. He's obviously in condition white since no one was home when they arrived. Both men are approx. 15 feet away and immediately turn when you push the door open.

My draw and fire from behind the front door is an action. they will have to react to it. They will have to think when they see me if they want to run or fight since I have surprised them.
Since an action beats a reaction, my unhesitating dive for cover and draw and fire will beat the bad guys reaction. So long as I dont hesitate, I will have the drop on them.

Cover behind front door shoot shotgun man first and TV man second if he does not trurn tail and run fast enough.

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, the one with my TV is pretty well ballistically protected from handgun fire, at least that is what I have learned from this and other forums. Given the whole alteration of time perception in the situation, everything turns to slow motion as I do a tremendously quick mental review of my home owner's insurance that tells me that if I shoot my own TV, they won't pay for it, but if a burglar/robber walks away with it, I have 100% replacement cost. Realizing that there is nobody in my home that I care about and nothing worth dying for, I simply retrograde as fast as possible from the premises and call 911. I then go to the neighbors house, ask to borrow their video camera, and then watch the exciting action as the cops arrive and these guys try to take my TV and end up destroying it. In the end, I have a new TV via insurance, a video tape that I submit to the World's Dumbest Criminals for which I win $1000, and I forget to return the video camera and so now I have one of those as well.

And to think if I had used all my training, I could have shot two bad guys in my home, risked biohazard contamination from thier bodily fluids, risked injury by them on me, risked repairs associated with holes in the walls, new carpeting, etc.

What a no brainer!!! There is no way in hell that in the circumstances described that I would try to effect a stop of the situation where I was out manned, potentially out gunned, and the one gunman who was armed was carrying ballistic protection in the form of my TV. I work hard for my belongings, but I won't die for them. I also work hard to pay my insurance. Insurance can die for my goodies. That is why it is there.

By the way, for those of you who don't know, the house was full of bad guys. You could only see two from the door.

[BamBam-31]

Exactly what I was thinking, Double Naught Spy.

You only SEE two. There could be several more a heartbeat away.

My first inclination was to blast the mofo's away, shotgunner first. It's my home, after all. I've every right to bury them. But what of the unknown burglars?

Retreat is the wisest option. Use your home court advantage to gain cover and avoid confrontation. Only engage if retreat is not possible. Call for help.

As much as this kind of invasion enrages me, it's only stuff, and my loved ones aren't being threatened. I'd let this one go.

If family members were home, all bets are off. :mad:

[Seeker]

For this scenario, I agree toss bag in high arc towards center of room and back out asap while drawing CCW.

OK, scenario 2a:
You unlock your door with your other hand and push it open. You see in your living room two men. Rather than seeing them as you enter, suppose you have an enrty hall/foyer. You unlock the door, put you keys on the door side table, close the door, pass thru the enrty hall and then see the BG's?

[ThePatriot29]

Eehhh, wrong idea. Ask yourself this: is there any object (not person) in your house you would give your life for? I can't think of anything in my house worth dying for.

:barf:

Is nothing worth dying for? Dignity, honor, are these not more valuable then our temporal existence? One's home is one's castle. I would defend the sanctity of my family's home just as I would defend the sanctity of my nation were it to be invaded by a foreign nation, with as much vigor and passion. Would you be willing to risk your life to take a stand against the thugs who are overrunning our neighborhoods, cities, and nation? If you would not protect your belongings and house (mere property), would you defend our Constitution, (a mere document) or our nation's form of government (merely one political philosophy). Life is not worth the destruction of everything that makes life worth living. Rape, of myself or another, is an invasion of dignity that I would be willing to risk my life to prevent, even if I knew I could survive the encounter through inaction. Property crime is also an invasion of privacy and honor. Life is not more valuable then one's principles.

A Nation of Cowards (http://www.mindspring.com/~brco/cowards.htm)

I know I will probably get flamed for being a vigilante, I will be accused of being rash and reckless, naive and idealistic. I accept this. My opinion has been carefullly thought through, and I have come to the conclusion that I would be willing to take a stand in any situation to preserve my principles. If that means defending the pizza guy in a holdup, or the single mother being harrassed in the inner city, or sticking up for an abused friend against their boyfriend, or other situations in which my personal safety is not directly threatened, then I would do so. The Founding Fathers considered these to be fundamental rights, rights worth dying for, and they did include property rights in this list. If I die, so be it, at least I have given my life protecting the lives, liberty, and property of others weaker then I. If this makes me an idealist, then I am in good company with the Wallaces, Patrick Henrys, Bonhoefers, and Kings in our world. As Martin Luther said:

On this I take my stand. I can do no other. God help me.

[Double Naught Spy]

Pat29, if you want to die for your stuff, that is fine. There is nothing wrong with that if you make that choice yourself. That is the beauty of this country. I choose not to decide in that manner. The choice hopefully will be yours when the time comes and hopefully I will have the same chance to decide should it come for me. What will suck is being in a situation where somebody else decides my life is worth destroying for some material items.

Of course, when somebody pulls a knife or gun on you and demands a wallet, the situation at that point really has nothing to do with your wallet, does it? At that point, your life is being threatened, the wallet only being the reason for the bad guy being in your face. You aren't defending your wallet at that point, but your life.

[itgoesboom]

I think this is a very bad scenerio to be in honestly.

First off, when you open that door, theres a good chance they are going to see you, or at least hear you. If you try to retreat, they are probably going to hear or see you. If you drop the groceries to draw, they are going to hear/see you.

So no matter what, you are going to be undergunned.

With that being said, my response would be to grab my CCW, drop groceries, get low, and engage the BG holding the shotgun, with ATLEAST 4 rounds COM. No warning, no challenge. No reason to even give him a chance. He is holding a weapon in my home, i have no good cover to retreat to, so if i can beat him on the draw, then i will. If not, then i am dead.

If i score hits on BG1, and he goes down, then its on to #2, and my tactic would be to close to my nearest light cover/concealment, and hold him at gunpoint. If he moves aggressivly, then engage him. If not, then stay in a position with atleast some cover/concealment, tac reload, and call the cops. Keep an eye on the stairs in case there are more of them, and incase they got my rifles as well as my shotgun.

Like i said, i dont see this a being an easy scenerio. If you retreat, then they will have a clean shot at your back, and since you are a witness, they might take that shot. If you challenge the one with a shotgun, and he reacts fast enough, your dead. Youre hand is forced.

I.G.B.

[M1911]

Is nothing worth dying for?
Plenty of things are worth dying for. My wife is worth dying for. Our freedom and way of life are worth dying for. My 18-year-old insured TV is not worth dying for.

M1911

[ThePatriot29]

A careful reading of my post will show that I was not arguing that a television set is worth dying for, but rather what is worth dying for is taking a stand against the criminals who have said that nothing today is sacred, nothing is safe. The fact that they are in my home illegally, with a shotgun no less, in the commission of the crime is as much an act of violence against my person, my dignity, and my home, as a violent assault would be. Accordingly, I would respond with appropriate force.

[LiveWire]

Since your stuff ain't worth defending, send it to me. If I saw some bastard in my house with a gun, I'd make them stop it.In short, nothing in your house---bar your loved ones---is worth dying for.

And if you take comfort in your perceived ability, under stress, to make all the right decisions on cue, consider this: Assuming you survive the encounter and the intruders do not, is anything in your house worth the cost of your defense in civil court? Because you will go.

In the above CQC scenario, things can get awful nasty mighty quick, and you certainly have the option to act on your gut-level instinct. But wouldn't you rather opt to defuse and de-escalate the situation by backing out, not knowing full well what the hell was going on, although it seemed like nothing good?

Yeah, Texas law may give you carte blanche in this case, and allow for what arguably amounts to a "discretionary" homicide (although goodness knows that many critical variables have been left out of the picture, without which I cannot realistically predict what can or should be done. A sudden, threatening movement on their part will unquestionably earn them each a ticket to Mozambique; but that doesn't appear to be the case here. They could be cops, for all I know, moving things about after nabbing a burglar.) But if you are able to retreat without a fight---furthermore, if the DA, the prosectutor, the judge and the jury are bound to see it that way---then that's what you really ought to do. Never mind your territorial paroxysms.

Then again, it's your time and money.

[tag]

The pages of history are full of dead heroes.

While your honor and dignity may require you to defend your tv and dvd player, a wise man would better choose his battles. Drawing from concealment, against an armed intruder with an unknown number of accomplices, is not the smartest decision. While your intentions are honorable, there is no reason to force yourself into this situation based on some misguided sense of honor. Saving your own skin doesn't make you any less of a man, hero or patriot. Sometimes, even the best of us have to retreat.

[ThePatriot29]

Better to be a dead hero then a living slave.

By your logic, the Founding Fathers fought and died to be free from taxation, in actuality, taxation far less offensive then that paid by the average Londoner of the period.

The physical circumstances of the fight were immaterial, it was a battle over principle.

[tag]

Your comparison between the our liberation from the English and defending your television is ridicilous and is meant for nothing more than dramatic effect. Think of it this way: a war is nothing more than a group of battles. Do you think that our founding fathers sent the troops into battle to "do or die" no matter what the odds? Do you think that we never retreated when the odds weren't in our favor? If you do, you need to go back and retake your elementary school history class.

In order to win the war, sometimes you fight, sometimes you retreat and sometimes (gasp!) you don' fight at all. A smart man picks his battles wisely and knows when to fight, when to retreat and when to provide recon. Using our scenario as an example, you have walked into your own home to discover AT LEAST two men robbing the place. AT LEAST one of them is armed. Your hands are full of packages and your firearm is concealed. The man that is obviously armed is carrying a shotgun, which means his aim doesn't have to be all that great to put you in a grave. Are there other BGs in the house? What about out in the car acting as lookout? Since you know that your family is not at home there is nothing in the house worth dying for. Are you so fast a draw that you can draw and shoot a man who has a weapon in his hand? Doubtful (most of us aren't.) Even if you do hit him, what about his friend? What about his other friend around the corner that you didn't see.

By retreating to a safe location and calling in renforcements, not only do you save your own butt, but you put yourself is a better position to get physical descriptions, liscence plate, vehicle descriptions and direction of travel after leaving the scene. Still itchin' to get into a gunfight? A quick retreat allows you to find cover (not concealment, like your interior walls) and return fire from a fortified position. This is far preferable that standing in the front door and shooting it out like an idiot.

Do you actually think that dying in your front door is going to make some grand statement about "taking back the streets" or defending our turf? Unlikely. Instead, it will be reported in the news as a home invasion gone wrong, and the media and anti-gunners will use it as an example of another gung-ho fool who got himself killed trying to kill some poor, disadvantaged youths who were forced to defend themselves.

Wise men tread lightly where fools rush in (or something like that)

[Oracle]

First, I'd take the frag grenades out of my grocery bag and throw one in...ok, just kidding :).

I'd drop the groceries, pull my CCW while retreating to cover, then take out the cell phone and dial 911. I'm not going to try to draw on and engage a guy with a shotgun in his hands, especially when I don't know whom else might be either inside the house or outside the house. Just because I only see 2 guys, that doesn't mean there aren't more. So, I get the heck out, dial 911, and continue to move and retreat.

[ThePatriot29]

Tag: Do not lecture me about history. The Founding Fathers were fighting over property rights essentially, but more then that, they were fighting over intangibles, principles. That was my point. Oh, and by the way, the odds were NEVER in the Americans' favor during the Revolution. One would think that a history expert such as yourself would have recognized that.

Itgoesboom makes a good point, you are already engaged, with little chance for a tactical withdrawl. This scenario is a sticky one, and there is no need to vilify those who would act in their best judgment to engage a threat to their life, who is standing no more then 20 feet away with a shotgun. Possessions notwithstanding, I am in fear for my life, so I will take any appropriate measures to neutralize that threat. If that means drawing and engaging the first threat while he is in condition white, so be it.

And for your "there may be hordes of bgs around" argument, any lookout outside would probably notice you on the way in, or the way out. It would suck to get shot in the back by the thug behind you, while retreating from your house and any cover you may have had now, wouldn't it?

[stevie_d_64]

Mine is one wheels, and is 60" of viewing pleasure...It is insured, and I would get an even better replacement for the money...

I see a lot of people on this thread state they would retreat and observe...Certainly call the law to catch them, but engaging when they (untill they saw you) were not a direct threat to you to begin with...

Of course the natural (knee-jerk) reaction would be: "HOW DARE YOU BREAK INTO MY HOME AND TRY TO STEAL MY STUFF!"

This is something we should all come to expect, and should all attempt to quell when the real deal happens...

The most important thing to remember is that you DO have the means to deal with any dangerous threat to you in the most decisive way...Thats half the battle...

The hard part is that that does not mean you are invincible, even people like Massad Ayoob understand that its just a matter of mind over matter...Someone breaks into your home armed...They have already made the decision, that no matter what happens, if they hear or see a threat, they don't hesitate...

I can almost guarantee that in a senario like this, the first gunshots are going to come from the bad guys...Second, if you're not quick enough, you may be in trouble...

Third...Nothing in your home that is not living and breathing is worth taking a life...That does not mean if it shoots first, all bets are off...I can think of a great variety of things to say (and not to say) if that is the outcome...Because if it did happen like that...I would do every thing I could to be the one left standing, all else is secondary...

This is always the hardest thing to realize...And its the hardest thing to let go...Nobody can make a decision for you in this regard...And there is no way to prepare for it...When the time comes, how the thing between your ears works is just as deadly as the thing on your hip...

Remember, and this is not meant to discourage, but the one left standing (and I hope its one of us, in a senario like this) has to live with that decision...And that is not necessarily a bad thing...

Me? I happen to have a hard time with things like this, but I know in the end, if I were you, regardless of the outcome...I'm going home and sleeping in my own bed that night...Thats what makes it easy, regardless of the decision you make...

[tag]

I find it hilarious that you equate your tv being stolen with the struggle for our freedom from the British. This is the point I am trying to make. Its obvious that the only reason you're making this comparison is for dramatic effect. I'll try to leave this out of my future arguments and quit fueling the fire. If you wish, e-mail me offline and I will suggest some reading material you didn't read last semester in American History.

You need to learn to choose your battles a little better. Actions like the ones you're suggesting don't end like they do in the movies. You want to blaze away standing in the front door? Go ahead. You're not gonna miss, right? You'll draw and fire in less than a second, right? You won't fumble your draw, right? One shot and they will drop like flies, right? Your monthly range time has prepared you perfectly for this situation, right? Who needs cover when you're that good.

Think of it this way: if you end up dead, what happens to the BGs? Nothing. They still get your stuff, plus "street cred" for killing a stupid college kid with a gun. Your family struggles because you aren't there to protect them and provide for them. Your principals die with you. But hey, at least you died a man, right? That's really all your talking about; some misguided macho attitude that "real men don't run from a fight." Your a big history buff, huh? What did the British think about the Americans who shot at them from the tree lines and ambushed their processions? They thought they were cowards for not fighting out in the open as had been the traditional way of war for hundreds or thousands of years. Guess its a good thing that our founding fathers weren't afraid of the coward label.

Who's to say you can't still have your principals AND save your own skin? Personally, I would rather live AND help put these guys in jail than die and let them go free. Your not doing society any good by bleeding to death in your doorway. There are other ways to stand up to crime than to square off and draw down with every bad guy you see.

You are right about the BG in the car. He's probably already seen you. Better that you distract yourself with shooting his buddies and make it easier to put one in the back of your head. All those people who say a moving target is harder to hit are fools anyway.

Now please, if you are going to continue this argument, stop trying to compare you tv being stolen to the fight for this country's freedom, or raping and beating innocent women and children. I'm still waiting for you to draw some correlation between your tv and 9-11. :rolleyes:

[ThePatriot29]

First off, I did not equate the American Revolution and this violent home invasion in scope or magnitude. It's so much more then a television, I didn't ever suggest one take a stupid stand for a tv. I was arguing that principles play into all decisions in life. Besides, while you're obviously a history buff, you must have never heard of the rhetorical device of hyperbole. However, this was not my only reason for bringing up the argument, I was stating that the Founders were not suffering incredibly terrible physical abuse at the hands of the British. Their lives were not threatened to the point that they were forced to fight, they were fighting for principles. If you can't understand the concept of following one's principles in all circumstances, however minor, then I will agree to foregore continuing this line of argument in favor of returning to the issue at hand. But don't patronize me, I don't want to get into a ******* contest over who knows more history.

You need to learn to choose your battles a little better. Actions like the ones you're suggesting don't end like they do in the movies. You want to blaze away standing in the front door? Go ahead. You're not gonna miss, right? You'll draw and fire in less than a second, right? You won't fumble your draw, right? One shot and they will drop like flies, right? Your monthly range time has prepared you perfectly for this situation, right? Who needs cover when you're that good.

That is completely uncalled for. Did I ever once suggest not taking cover, no. Did I ever suggest that when the SHTF, that everything will go alright, no. I infact made no suggestion as to exactly how to engage the targets, merely that I would rather then taking flight from my home. I left the discussions of the bare bones of how to engage to the more knowledgeable armchair gunfighters her. What guarantees do you have that you will succeed in your plans? It's an uncertain world we live in. Back off with the arrogance buddy.

Throughout this debate your arguments have been characterized by vitriolic attacks on my character, intelligence, age, principles, and arguments. You have put words in my mouth, you have twisted my arguments into straw men, and been condescending, all the while claiming moral superiority. If you want to continue this debate on an intellectual level, when we can discuss issues rather then ad hominem attacks, fine, I'll be here. If you can't defend your principles without stooping to junior high tactics of namecalling, then come back when you grow up.

[tag]

Sorry if you were offended, I'm not used to dealing with people who are so sensitive. Sometimes I use sarcasm with people to demonstrate the outrageousness of their statements. Seems like it worked this time. But don't blame me for taking this path, you're the one that brought up the founding fathers. That was insulting to everyone who had replied that they would retreat, as it implied that they were unpatriotic, cowardly and that the founding fathers would only approve of a full-on assault. Nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe if you had skipped the rhetoric and dealt with the scenario at hand we could have avoided this little disagreement.

I'm glad that you quoted that section of my previous post, because it means I made my point. These are the types of things that have to be considered in every scenario where you choose to use a gun for self defense. Since you won't have time to think about them at the time of the incident, you have to be willing to think about them now. It's Murphy's Law, and if something can go wrong, it will. At best, the scenario gave you a split second to react, since there are multiple assailants and one of them had a gun in hand. Since you are still standing in the door, retreat is the best option.

I took a training class last year, and part of the class was an ATM scenario using Sims guns. I was playing the bank customer approaching the ATM to withdraw some money. As I got up to the ATM, I noticed a BG lurking behind the corner, about 20 ft away. I quickly decided that this was an unsafe situation, and made a quick retreat while keeping an eye on the BG. I drew my pistol while retreating, just in case he came after me. Now, I could have stood my ground on the principal that it was my money in that machine and no one could keep me from it, but I didn't. BTW, everyone that stood their ground and withdrew money ended up shot and killed. I have been through alot of this type of training, and it has helped me understand that you can never be prepared for everything, the odds are usually against you, and sometimes a good defense is the best offense. You should try some Sims or FATS training and you will see what I mean.

It's great to see a young person with such strong convictions in his principals, but you need to temper them with a little common sense. Charging into every situation waving your principals like a banner will do nothing but get you beaten, humiliated or killed.

[ThePatriot29]

First, I was not offended at all. Besides, it would take a heck of a lot more then that to offend me. I myself enjoy the use of sarcasm, both as a humor style, and to make points. However, your sarcasm was directed at a caricature of my argument, and not the real one. I do believe my point still stands. I was not directly a personal attack at anyone here, but rather the whole idea that in violent confrontations, one must suffer almost anything before using deadly force, a view which I believe contributes to the victimization of our society.

While it is not a sense of false bravado or machismo which prompted my original comment, I am man enough to apologize for any offense given. If you were insulted, for that I apologize. I'm here to engage in rational, albeit somewhat heated discussion. Sometimes youthful enthusiasm is mistaken for arrogance or rashness. While I still stand by my argument, I want to make it clear that I am interested in constructive discussion, and have most definately considered the issue thoughtfully.

To make you happy, I won't even mention the idea that the people in the first two planes on 9/11 likely went along with the hijackers because of a misguided view that "If we go along we won't get killed." But I won't even bring that up. ;) (BtW, this was in no way directed at anyone here, but rather the sheeple in our society.

I value the comments made in your second paragraph, that's what I like to see, a reasonable discussion of the issue. The focus on thinking things through prior to the event is one of the things that drew me to TFL. While I may disagree with your conclusion, I believe we all benefit from a rational discussion.

I appreciate the advice for pursuit of practical training. As soon as my budget and schedule permit (spending lots of time in remedial US history will hurt :D ), I plan to do so. Most of the time in these scenario threads I sit by quietly and observe what the older and wiser have to say. I do enjoy playing devil's advocate, and was trying to make a point that would not attack others, but hopefully prompt some thoughts, and I hope that you look at the article I linked to, it has some great points. There was so much of a non-confrontational attitude portrayed in the thread, I thought I'd spice up the intellectual debate with a few comments. I hope they haven't gotten out of hand on either side.

Lastly, I never intend to charge into any situation half-cocked, waving a suicidal banner of mistaken principles. Far from being a reckless kid, I have devoted more time to studying the great minds of personal defense, from both the legal and tactical side, then most CCW holders I know. I believe that when I do get my CCW, I will be both a concerned citizen with not only street smarts, but a rational argument for why I believe what I believe, and do what I do. I've enjoyed our exchange, and hope that we all may have learned from it. While I firmly stand by my position as strongly as ever, I think the emotion on both sides has gotten out of hand. Let's get back to discussing this lose-lose scenario, shall we?

[k-boom]

I would touch my communicator and say "beam my up Scotty!"

Seriously….take cover as I draw and then assess the situation. Preferably, don’t let them know you have a gun (let them think your one of the sheeple) your out gunned and will need the element of suprize if they advance on your position.

Attempting a quick draw is the least desirable situation because even in a tie…you loose!

[HS/LD]

Here in Colorado we have the "make my day law".

In your house ANY force is justified and you are immune from criminal and civil prosecution.

In my house these guys would be the unluckiest burglars in the world.

MF with the scatter gun gets scattered then BG with sh*t in pants gets scattered next.

Move inside with big evil grin.
Reload and finish both the BGs off.

Hard pressed on my right.
My center is yielding.
Impossible to maneuver.
Situation excellent, I am attacking!

HS/LD

[youngun]

Who can say till it happens, but, I get the feeling my first inclination would be to duck out of there.
Not necessarily from any tactical negotiations standpoint, premeditated or ptherwise, but simply because - holy ___ - there's guys in there with GUNZ!!
Once back outside, I guess I'd draw the gun and the phone (practice that supportside dialing folks!) and assess.
Depending on the day, and how my religious sentiments were holding up, I may or may not go around the otherside to recon.
If they're just stealing my stuff, I can't kill them.
-But that might just be on a count of all the stuff I stole when I was a young and stupid heathen.

Plus, my guess is they're turning tail at this point, and either they're on foot or I've got their tags, so nothing major is going very far.

Major mitigating factor: do I see they've got my firearm(s).

Another way it might go (again, not so much from a what-would-you-do standpoint, more just how I see it unfolding) is for me to weigh that 15 yards against the whiteness of #2's condition and rush him, while #1 decides where he stands and does something with the tv. (Remember Tueller.)
I'm willing to bet I have more H2H training than this guy, and can have him down and hurting before he can bear his weapon.
After that I choose either the CW or shotgun against #1 depending on his mood (most likely the CW, since I know it runs).

Final note, I doubt I could make it through my door with this guy's hand still in the drawer. It takes at least 3 seconds of fumbling to get through a door, even in condition yellow. Most likely I'd have a much clearer idea of who was armed and how serious they were - a view that might last a half-second or so....

[Master Blaster]

Some folks have sort of flamed me for being a Ninja / revolution minuteman for my response which included opening fire on these guys, from cover.

My experience with burglars was over 12 years ago in another house we owned being broken into 3 times in 12 months by the same burglar, and nearly surprising them the second time.

You all have heard of armed home invasions right??

most burglars watch the house and try to break in when you are not there, at work or somewhere that you will not return from unpredictably. They do not come armed, let alone with a shotgun that will reduce the amount of booty they can carry out and sell.

There are the home invasion types though who want to find you at home and beat or even kill you, and they try to break in when you are home. I would put the burglars in this case in that category. They are armed and have not picked a time when my regular habits would put me at work. I assume they are looking for me, and will come back. I also assume they are not experts with a firearm who practice twice a week as I do.

I will have the drop on them, I will take cover and engage.
Self preservation is my motive here. Whos to say the next time that they will not ambush me when I get out of my car with my wife and kids.

JMHO YMMV.

[HS/LD]

MASTER BLASTER gave all the good reasons and I could not agree with him more!!

You train, you get a CCW permit, you spend money on a pistol and ammo and range time, you take classes and you practise your draw from concealment. You carry a 'tactical folder' and dream of a smooth tac reload...

You rave endlessly about civil liberties and rights on forums.

You wail that the only way the BATfmen are getting your guns are bullets first.

The moment two little sh*ts come uninvited into your house you pee your pants and run. What happened to back bone and mind set. You want to call the cops and send them in to protect YOUR house. That is sick!

"Well that's their job!" "I could get sued!" "I have a family to think of!"
I'm amazed it was possible to procreate!

You want guys to fly to Afganhistan and "Kick ass."
Crawl into a dark cave and find Bin Laden, when you aren't prepared to protect your own home, imagine if all the courageous men (and women) in the service thought like you.

If it was my wife coming to the door she has standing orders to move as quickly as possible to safety.

I don't have that luxury it is my responsibility to protect my home.

"A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well." Proverbs 25:26

"And all the time - such is the tragic comedy of our situation - we continue to clamor for those very qualities we are rendering impossible. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful."
C.S.Lewis

Now this post may indeed **** some of you off. Good!
Just like my CT instructor ****** me off we he said I button holed doors like a scared rabbit.

Well I have calmed down now.

Flame away.

HS/LD

[tag]

Now were quoting bible passages? Good grief.

If you have such convictions about defending your home, why aren't you willing for your wife to risk her life? Get her some training, get her a pistol, a few spare mags and a cood ccw rig and let her make her own stand for justice. Bullets from a woman's gun work the same as they do from a man's. Or do your principals only count for men? Can't a woman die for "freedom?"

Of course, the reason you would tell your wife to run and hide is you don't think her life is worth wasting to save a TV. But your misplaced sense of machismo REQUIRES you to risk your life. Of course, it helps if you picture yourself fighting along with the soliders in Afganistan, or maybe that Bin Laden himself is stealing your TV. Or you quote bible verses and picture yourself doing god's work.

Master Blaster, how do you figure that these guys are trying to find you at home, when they clearly broke in while you were out and don't seem to be lying in wait for your return? At least you chose to take cover first and not just to blast away from the doorway.

[maze51]

Wow! you all are amazing. I would run like crazy, call the police, then call my insurance company and get new stuff. Pretty simple huh? Stay alive and get new stuff, DUH!!!!

You all have been watching too many movies!!!!!!

[Master Blaster]

When I was burglarized the police arrived and they knew who the burglar was right away they knew his name record and where he lived.

The Officer said

"****** ****** he's a one man crime wave he breaks into three houses a day"

That was the first time the second time the Officer said:

"So ****** **** broke in again, yeah we cant catch him in the act cause he's so slick (this is a 17 yearold who is already a drug dealer burglar fence and a juvy hall resident) He's a regular Fagen"

I said what if he comes back again when we are home, the dtective lifted his coat and said get one of these (357 mag S&W revolver)

[Double Naught Spy]

Master Blaster, you are a brave soul. Here is a little first person story for you to describe your situation.

Yes, we were watching your house to see when you would leave. You left and we broke in. Time is short and we are all in a need of a fix. It is critical we find the valuables that we will exchange for crack. We will do anything to get it, but we aren't completely stupid as we have done this many times before. WE may not be organized in the sense you may think, but we do have a plan, simple as it may be.

I see you return with your wife. Unfortunately, I was not quick enough to warn my buddies because I did not expect you so soon. You open the door and see Frankie and Guido. The look of surprise on Guido's face is funny as it is contorted by the weight of the TV.

Apparently you have experienced strong target fixation. You think you have seen the whole group, but you have only seen the two who were immediately visible when you opened the door. I laugh to myself as you think you are going to be some hero, pushing your wife out of the way, beating your chest like a big gorilla to announce that you are a he-man, then drawing your weapon and send your TV to hell with hopes of hitting Guido and Frankie?

You move quick, but I move even quicker and you don't even see me. As your gun comes out, I am already showering your with 9 mm rounds from my Tech 9. You never even see me as the first of the bullets strike your back. Your wife now cries out as she is splattered with your blood and I quickly turn the gun on her. By now Frankie is shooting wildly, striking you only once in the chest with a shotgun blast as you fall from my bullets.

No doubt the shots have have alerted the neighbors and we will be leaving soon. I quickly run over and strip the keys from your hand, your gun as well, which looks nice. Your wife's rings go in my pocket and we are soon on our way. It would have been a lot easier if you hadn't come home, but we still did well.

It was funny to watch, at first, the way you wanted to play the hero. You had no idea I was even behind you. You never saw me step out from between the houses. You never saw me as I landed shots in your back. Your wife saw me, but she won't be telling anybody about it now, will she.

Thanks for the gun and thanks for the car. How funny! You thought you would be a hero and you never knew I was there. We'll be stoned tonight and you will be stone cold.

[Master Blaster]

Double Naught You are right.

You sound just like the antis I hear on TV saying that no one can successfully defend themselves with a firearm. You are more likely to shoot yourself with that dangerous gun.
Its completely foolish to defend your self or your home.
Run away and dial 911

Because no matter what the situation you will never have full knowlege or a guarrantee of the outcome.
There could at any time in any situation be an unseen third or fourth acomplice with a Belt fed BAR, or even a tech nine waiting for you to defend your self.

The runny nosed addict who confronts you at the ATM, the burglar who breaks in the middle of the night, or the example given here.

Suppose that I turn tail immediately and run as fast as I can and dial 911. Right down the street is the third man with a Belt fed BAR he opens up on me the minute I exit the house. Or he has a 10" kitchen Knife and he is hiding in the bushes. Did you know this would be his third arrest and there is no way he is ever going to jail again? I have now seen them I could be a witness. Oh well running and cowering would be suicidal HUH?

I suggest that you send all of your guns and ammo to me so you can cower in a corner and suck your thumb.




;)

[HS/LD]

When I go to the range (with my wife who has a CCW permit and is an accomplished pistolero - tag) I like to practise this drill:

I stand squarely in front of a target down range, my handgun loaded almost to overflowing with the ultimate one shot knock down carry ammo. I super high grade ultra tactical folder made from kryptonite on the the other hip. I growl, get the warrior mindset, visualise detroying my enemy. I like the targets that show the bad guy with his gun out and a particularly frightening scowl on. I get ready, I scowl right back.....

...then bam quick as lightening I run out of the range while speed dialing 911!!

Give me break we have enough ducking and running in this world.

HS/LD

tag - is it ok to quote C.S Lewis and Ferdinand Foch but the moment I quote the bible..... good grief? I'm an agnostic and still find the ocassional drop of wisdom in the bible. I didn't realise this was the liberals forum. Where I am not allowed to mention religion.
Sorry if you were offended, I'm not used to dealing with people who are so sensitive.

HS/LD

[CULLENIII]

Start shooting ---retreating to vehicle calling 911 and bringing in heavier car guns to bear.

[tag]

Your right. How could I expect someone who fancys himself an operator to retreat? Surely your multiple layers of body armor would deflect the shotgun pellets while you brought your MP5 from low ready, closed distance to the target, double tap, switch tangos, double tap, scan, tac reload and call clear to your wife who is covering your 6.

Some people are just too dense to realize that there are actually some situations where retreat is the best option. Facing an opponent with shotgun in hand is probably one of them. Even if you just retreat to suitable to cover to return fire, its better than standing in the door and drawing down like a fool. Unless, of course, you're high speed / low drag.

Everything you say, even your chosen screen name, just reinforces the fact that your decision is based on nothing more that some misguided macho bull poopy.

If your wife has a CCW, why is she not required to make the same stand that you are? Because she's a woman? Do women have no honor since they are allowed to run and hide? If she is so accomplished, she could easily dispacth these BG's, right? We should all be willing to die for our tv's, unless we are married to a wannabe operator, I guess.


CONTACT RIGHT! ENGAGE! TANGO DOWN! CLEAR! ;)

[Double Naught Spy]

Master Blaster, not an anti, not by a long shot. I am just merely pointing out a blatant lack of situational awareness.

As for protecting one's home, home insurance is a fine thing. It isn't as if the bad guys are actually stealing your home, just a few items inside. Why fight for things of such limited value that would be covered by insurance? The bad guys will be leaving soon enough anyway, so the situation is temporary.

The best defense is to simply not be there. While I do not suggest that you don't have a right to defend your things, but in doing so in the situation described means putting yourself in additional danger for meager items.

As for your scenario where the BAR opens up on you, maybe, maybe not. While the burglars may not be the brightest guys, if they do have a lookout covering their situation, he is unlikely to open up on you if you have not already shot. The reason why is that gunshots will bring attention to the situation and an immediacy that would otherwise not be present.

IN the scenario, you are in the doorway and the guy you know who has the shotgun (the only known gun of the bad guys) has it by his side. He is not ready to shoot any direction, much less at you. You have the opportunity at that moment to immediately be out of view simply by sidestepping from the doorway on the outside. If you have a brink house, that means you have not only gained concealment, but also cover. In other words, you could be out of sight long before either had a chance to shoot you. In just a few seconds, you would be completely removed from that situation. One of the best ways to survive a fight is to not even be at the fight. This could be achieved very quickly.

Now, had the situation been different, say where you were inside the house before you realized intruders were present, you obviously would not be able to extact yourself from the situation with any such ease as in the original stated scenario. Without being able to gain distance and cover nearly as well as in the original situation, the context of being in the same room with the bad guys means that you in definite peril. Without possible quick escape, no doubt then the time is upon you to protect your life. Here, starting the battle is to your benefit because if you don't, they will and your chances won't be great if that happens. You will not have the benefit of increasing your distance to target by any significant amount and likely won't have much in the way of cover. If you get to blast first and score a hit, maybe even neutralizing your first threat, the odds of the immediate fight within the room have just jumped remendously for you from 2:1 to 1:1.

For the original scenario, even with the rights to start blasting being perfectly legal in your particular state (it would be here in Texas as I understand it), why start a fight that will undoubtedly put your life at risk for a few material items when you don't have to do so?

There are other benefits as well if you don't start the fight and egress out of the situation post haste. First, you don't have to deal with the cops endless questioning, potential arrest (at least until they get things sorted out completely), confiscation of your weapon for an indefinite amount of time, the biohazard of the blood spills, occupation by the police of your home for many hours, the expenses of having carpeting, furniture, walls, drapes, etc. professionally cleaned and decontaminated or replaced, etc. All of that is going to cost you a lot of time and expense to get things settled. Maybe insurance will pay for the cleanup and replacement, maybe not as the reason for the blood was actually caused by you. If you do shoot and/or kill people in your home, probably the last thing that may bother you even more than knowing bad guys were snooping around your home is that the cops are going to be all over it, looking through everything to determine exactly what the bad guys were doing and to find out if your story is substantiated. So not only did you lose some privacy to the burglars, but now you have lost privacy to the police and the information may make it into public record.

And to think had you just egressed away, the time the cops would have spent there would have been much less, your insurance company dealings would have been less complicated, and your life would have gotten back to normal much more quickly.

An anti perspective? Nope, I don't think so. Fighting smarter sometimes means not fighting at all and any time you have the option of leaving a potential lethal confrontation situation physically unharmed, you are way ahead of the game.

[tag]

...Fighting smarter sometimes means not fighting at all and any time you have the option of leaving a potential lethal confrontation situation physically unharmed, you are way ahead of the game....

Very well said.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Alas, due to work commitments, I haven't been able to hang here much of late.

This, unfortunately, got out of control & off-topic. Therefore, it's closed.

Folks....Think Twice, Post Once! Questions?