View Full Version : Which Side-by-Side Shotgun for CAS
October 21, 2002, 11:15 PM
I have a Stoeger/IGA Coachgun and like it OK, but it just doesn't feel right to me. It feels...I don't know...too bulky or something.
I handled an EAA/Bakail Bounty Hunter II and it seemed lighter, trimmer, and overall handier than the Stoeger.
The EAA is about an inch shorter and about a quarter pound lighter than the Stoeger.
The slim forend on the EAA fills the hand less than the fat beavertail forend of the Stoeger.
Other features...the Stoeger is choked Modified and Improved Cylinder while the EAA is choked Cylinder and Cylinder.
The Stoeger has 3" chambers while the EAA is limited to 2 3/4.
The Stoeger is stocked with generic hardwood and the EAA apparently is too according to their website (although I thought I read before that it was stocked in walnut...now apparently every model except the one I would get is walnut).
Neither is made in the USA...one in Brazil and one in Russia.
Both are relatively cheap as far as the grand scheme of firearms pricing goes. I could easily find a buyer for my Stoeger. I am considering ditching it in favor of the EAA (internal hammer version).
Should I or shouldn't I?
Is there something I am missing?
EAA and Stoeger fans and foes speak up.
October 22, 2002, 08:23 PM
sounds to me like you answered your own question, you just need someone to say, Go Ahead;)
October 22, 2002, 10:27 PM
If I had answered my own question, I wouldn't have asked it. I am not looking for somebody to just agree with me for the sake of agreeing with me. I want an honest comparison and opinions of these two guns so I can make an informed decision. The EAA may be a piece of crap. If it is, I want to know about it. If it is an awesome SxS that eclipses the Stoeger, I want to know that too. Sorry jjmorgan for any confusion, I'm not just looking for a "Yes Man".
October 22, 2002, 10:46 PM
No yes man involved
I handled an EAA/Bakail Bounty Hunter II and it seemed lighter, trimmer, and overall handier than the Stoeger. Then you will be more comfortable with it, hence faster, on a rapid fire course
Other features...the Stoeger is choked Modified and Improved Cylinder while the EAA is choked Cylinder and Cylinder The Stoeger is built for hunting, while the cylinder chokes are installed in the Eaa for short CAS courses
The Stoeger has 3" chambers while the EAA is limited to 2 3/4 A wash at CAS, 3" shells would draw some attention
The quality on these is very comparable, It depends more upon the individual gun you get than the brand. one is a general purpose shotgun, while one is a CAS special.
All the points you mention are either a wash or favor the EAA
If you've put all this work into comparing the 2 then when you already own one then, you obviously are looking for someone to say you should do it, but i'm not gonna, you're on your own
October 22, 2002, 11:15 PM
Actually, whether it was your intention or not, this second post of yours was much more helpful. You made some excellent points. Thanks.
Now does anyone have anything bad to say about EAA in general or the Bakail Bounty Hunter Shotguns in specific.
Does anybody have one? Do you like it? Why or Why not?
October 22, 2002, 11:44 PM
I don't own a Baikal. I don't want to own a Baikal. Those I have seen were rough, crude, and stiff to operate. And that in comparison with IGA. The supposedly better handling of the Russky is completely wiped out by the effort it takes to load the blamed thing. Maybe a gunsmith can straighten it out. I don't know and I don't want to guinea pig one. I don't have to. I shoot an old Verney Carron which is a much finer gun than either of those clunkers.
Which brings up something I just don't understand. Most CAS shooters get the best sixguns and carbines they can afford; then cheap out on the shotgun. Russian and Brazilian double barrels. Chinese pumps. I don't think they actually run out of money. Most of the people on my last posse paid more for their boots than they did their shotguns. Maybe it is the image. The shotgun is a sodbuster's weapon, real cowboys shoot rifles and pistols.
I did a survey on the SASS wire. Nobody was willing to pay as much for a shotgun as they had given for their pair of revolvers. They thought a Ruger shotgun would be real nice... at the price of a Vaquero. Ruger must have realized that. They priced their new SxS more than the most extravagant cowboy would pay, going for the grouse hunting trade, I guess.
Another problem is, there are very few double shotguns in the price range of a pair of Rugers or Ubertis. Either way cheap or way expensive. The collectors and speculators are driving the prices of good older doubles out of sight.
So I don't know of a cure for it. There are some pretty slick IGAs in use, though. Silk purses out of a sow's ear.
October 23, 2002, 11:05 AM
I'll echo some of what Jim says in that the springs on a Biakal are pretty stiff, and the barrels tend to partially close unless the lever is held open or the barrles held down. This makes reloading a bit problematic.
I own two Stoegers. The gun I shoot in matches is actually a combo of the two. One is a standard Coachgun, while the other is an Uplander Supreme with a single trigger, ejectors, and 28" barrels w/ choketubes. My match gun is the barrel and forearm of the Coachgun mated to the receiver of the Supreme. It has worked flawlessly for about a year, and my Coachgun did duty for about 3 years before that with no problems. The only problems I have seen from Stoegers is a tendency for some new guns to stick closed due to the firing pins not retracting, and from guns that have seen lots of use (40 matches a year for several years) and the springs and/or locking lugs just wear out.
A good gunsmith experienced with these shotguns can usually cure any problems they have, and both the Stoeger and Biakal both can benefit from an action job.
October 23, 2002, 11:23 AM
Something to also consider is that the Baikal is evidentally hard for a smith to work on and usually requires smith work to be competitive. The usual rough and oversprung problems you have with most CAS guns. On the other hand the Stoegers may be ready out of the box. I believe the BH IIs were cheaper than the stoegers before gunsmithing but not sure if this is the case anymore.
I have heard multiple accounts of people having troubles with the locking lugs on Stoegers. Wearing and cracking is not unheard of in a gun that has seen a lot of use.
October 23, 2002, 03:41 PM
I own a Baikal and my wife's uncle just picked up the Stoeger. We both just went to a match last weekend.
I like the way his looks sort of. It looks like a better wood, and finish. It was only about 50 bucks more than mine. His looked pretty clean out of the box, mine had some crud in a few places like inbetween the barrels. I didn't clean his so I don't know if it has the same stuff in it. You couldn't see it in mine, I just wanted to make sure every nook and cranny was cleaned out and found stuff in some of the hidden spots.
They both seem to shoot well, but mine unloaded faster, that is the shells dropped out with a quick jerk, he had to pull his out. The shells made a difference from what one guy said,but I don't know for sure.
They both seem to have the same stiffness breaking them open. Actually his was new and stiffer, I atleast had a couple of boxes through mine and it wasn't as bad. But in the begining, you definatly needed to force it open.
The Stoeger seems to be more blocky, and it has cuts into stuff for better grip, like the saftey, which I didn't really like.
I had a hard time taking his down, but that maybe due to unfamiliarity with how it works. I couldn't get the grip off to seperate the barrel from the stock like mine.
I can't tell you any difference in shooting since I didn't use his in the match, nor did he use mine.
After 3 boxes through it I had one problem with it that didn't happen again, and I don't know why or what happened. The second trigger would not pull. I broke it open and closed it, and it worked, so it could have been that I slipped on the saftey on accident after my first shot, or something went and moved after my first shot. I don't know. I didn't see anything wrong, and it didn't do it again for the next 3 stages.
October 23, 2002, 03:56 PM
The type of shotgun shells you use definitely makes a difference in whether the shells will just fall out of the gun or whether you have to claw them out. Smooth hulled shells, especially the Winchester AA hulls, will generally slide right out of the chambers. Ribbed shells (even slightly), like the Walmart shells that are $3 a box, will usually need to be pulled out of the chambers. Efficiency in loading and unloading your SxS is crucial to being even moderately speedy shooting your shotgun, and not having to dig the shells out certainly helps. If you still have problems when even using smooth hulled shells, the you probably need to get you chambers flex honed.
October 26, 2002, 01:20 AM
Very interesting discussion. Hope y'all don't mind if I throw a couple more logs on the fire.
While your title said "Which" the discussion has pretty much been a Baikal and Stoeger fest. Both of which get lots of use in CAS.
Just by dumb luck, which is about the only kind I get, I stumbled into three different brands; Browning BSS, Stevens 311 and Rossi Squire.
All have good points, and I'll give you a quick thumbnail of each. The Browning is very well made and handles well. I picked mine up cheap about 10 years ago when a family friend died and his widow was selling his huge collection off. The BSS has a single trigger and ejectors which must be disabled. It is no longer made and the ones I've seen for sale are going for $600-1000. Way more than I paid. So I quit banging it around.
I picked up a 311. American made and cheap. Double trigger and solid as a rock. $50 gunsmith bill got it smooth and easy opening. For the money, it can't be beat. $200-$300 is normal.
Then my boy was ready for a 20 and I lucked into a Rossi. I don't know if this gun has had any work done on it. I slicked the chambers, but it really didn't need it. It breaks wide open and is easy to handle. I find myself stealing it from the kid at least once a month. $250-350, add $50 for external hammers.
Sure not my intention to complicate your decision. Because none of these guns are currently being made, you will have to shop more and there won't be any warranty period.
One more note on the Stoeger. I recall reading that there have been troubles with the locking lug on some models. I don't know any more than that and there are several gunsmiths I could refer you to if needed.
When did you run that survey on SASSWIRE, I musta missed it. The results don't surprise me. Except folks will pay a bit for a 97.
October 26, 2002, 11:30 AM
I've got one of the older Stevens 311s. I have fired both the Baikal and the Rossi. The Baikal handled and shot a lot better for me than the Rossi, but this can vary quite a bit from one gun to the next with double guns. Overall I think that the Baikal would make a better handling gun with a spring job, disabling the auto safety and slicking up the action a bit. I like those cylinder chokes for CAS shooting applications and prefer them to the tighter chokes of the Rossi. I do like the older Rossi shotguns especially the hammerguns. Big Hext, One of my pards shoots one of those Brownings and they are indeed a fine shooting gun. I have another Pard who shoots an old Parker. I never can seem to find anything like that for sale in my area. I am shopping for an older Stevens Hammer gun.
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