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Nightcrawler
October 7, 2002, 12:11 AM
Loved the November issue, especially the article where they went through Urban Rifle with a .30-30 (especially since I had a partial hand in giving the folks the idea for that article on this very forum).

One thing, though. In Denny's briefing, he says that "a .223 has significantly less penetration than 9mm ball fired from a handgun."

In my experience in owning two AR-15s and shooting M16s in the military, this simply hasn't been the case. .223 55grn FMJ (like South African surplus), in my experience, simply doesn't fragment as well as its proponents think it will. I've shot thorugh both sides of a steel GI helmet and a 55 gallon drum, and I don't think the bullet slowed down much. There was a clean entry hole and a clean, slightly larger exit hole, and no signs of fragmentation. Thus, from my own experience, I wouldn't bet on a .223 FMJ round (leaving the barrel at 3,000 feet per second) fragmenting when hitting wall board or drywall.

Also note that .223 will slide through a soft armor vest easily, whereas 9mm will not.

However, this has been a topic of signifcant discussion on TFL. Many members have opinions, few have actually done tests.

This is where I think SWAT should step in. Perhaps they could settle it "once and for all"? I'm imagining a test where they build mockups of common house walls, such as brick, drywall, sheetrock, 2x4s, etc. Then, take various handgun rounds, (FMJ and JHP), as well as some rifle rounds (.223, 7.62x39, .308, .30-30) and see what kind of penetration you get with various loads.

To me, this would be an extemely interesting article, though it'd probably be difficult to put together the test.

Just an idea. :cool:

Tamara
October 7, 2002, 01:55 AM
I've kinda wondered about 55gr .223 fragmenting at close ranges myself. I've shot it through car doors and water heaters and had nice single entry & exit holes...

It'd make for an interesting article, for sure.

Denny Hansen
October 7, 2002, 10:40 AM
Wrote the piece, saw it after Dennis proofed it, read it again after lay-up, and read it a final time at the prep-house stage. Once I saw the printed issue I knew I should have said clairified between frangible and ball:rolleyes:

OK, ya'll want a test, we'll do one. I still have some wall mock-ups left from the last time we shot birdshot through to show that it will penetrate soft cover.

Denny

4V50 Gary
October 7, 2002, 11:07 AM
That statement should have been read in context of house fighting. The .223 will penetrate less wallboard, studs, and other things than a 9mm bullet will in a house environment. That's why LE favors the .223 over the 9mm in house clearing - less collateral damage.

Nightcrawler
October 7, 2002, 12:13 PM
So you meant that .223 frangible will penetrate less than 9mm ball? Makes sense.

At any rate it's cool that they're going to do the test. SWAT magazine rules! I should submit an article sometime. Heh.

KSFreeman
October 7, 2002, 07:11 PM
Ehhh, depends on what your shooting and what kind of round, just like any other projectile.

All the ballyhoo came into being when the .223 was sold to the po-po as "the one true way" as a solution to 9mm 147 grainer overpenetration shootings and suits. The problem is (as always) that the policicrats focused only on the caliber (or the magic sword, e.g. HK54s) instead of the hunk o' metal that comes out of it or the trained hand and finger guiding it.

We have superweapons! There is no need to follow Rule #4 or train up our boys in Rule #4! The weapons will fire themselves and the city attorney will stop jumping up and down.

4V50 Gary
October 8, 2002, 09:52 PM
Just got mine today. Love that cover photo with the M-1D. However, the shooter shouldn't look into the camera. :D