Anybody ever been sprayed with OC?

[ThePatriot29]

Voluntary or otherwise? I ask because I'm buying some foxlabs OC, and am considering "testing" it. There doesn't seem to be long term effects, so I would be willing to make a sacrifice in order to understand the strength of something I'm testing, and know how it might affect a BG. Comments? Has/would anyone do this?

[David Blinder]

I'm a certified instructor for a number of OC manufacturers and have been sprayed by all of them. I carry Fox. As to you getting sprayed, I'd suggest that you only do that in a class as it's pretty nasty even under contolled circumstances with proper decontamination. I'd hate to think about how bad it would be without a decent setup. I can promise that it would be uncomfortable at best and dangerous at worst.

[milcaztra]

I second Blunder's opinion. If you can find a course, get sprayed under controlled conditions. Have a plan for someone to drive you home. If I ever have to be sprayed again for recertification, I'll probably skip some sleep the night before and take two tylenol pm's after getting home to sleep off the effects, as much as possible.

It hurts, and time seems to be the only remedy that blunts the pain. If you want to get sprayed, use a "lower" rated spray, not the 2 million SHU formulas. The other sprays will hurt plenty. Just imagine poring tabasco x 10 into your eyes. Ouch.

[ThePatriot29]

Thanks for the good advice.

Where would I find a class in my area?
Also, I'm planning on getting some of Fox's decontam wipes, as a precaution.

Blunder: What were your experiences with Fox? Did it incapacitate you? Did you have any sort of window of still being tactically capable between getting sprayed and the effects taking hold?

[Erick Gelhaus]

Been sprayed, both intentionally & inadvertantly.

The intentional spray had a pretty good effect. Not anxious to experience that on the street.

The inadvertant has happened during arrests, when someone decided to spray when we were in contact. Got through it, arrested was made.

[HAWK-HKG11]

I have a friend that did it on himself with some Fox...he said he threw up...

[imadork]

I sprayed myself accidentally with 10% when I was walking down a public street (don't ask). It hurts like hell for the first couple of minutes and you can't open your eyes very well, after which it just burns. I had to stand still for about 2 minutes before I felt like walking. I have to say that the pepper grains in the eye were worse than the liquid. The tabasco in the eyes feeling lasts for several hours. I quickly discovered that blotting my eyes with my shirt was effective, and so was drinking heavily. Of course, I was then left with a pair of bright red eyes and tears everywhere to stagger back to my place in full view of the cruel, indifferent public. I slept it off and felt fine the next day. I haven't decided whether to carry pepper spray again.

[fed168]

I used the Bio Shield product when I was last sprayed. I was hit by the stuff I carry, from Zark, and the decon was alot quicker and less painful than without it. Heck, I could even put my contacts back in about an hour later.
Try the wipes.

[David Blinder]

People will react in different ways but in my experience (personal and observed), Fox works quicker and more effectively on more people than it's competitors. The time window that a truly motivated, goal-oriented person could react is small because even though you MIGHT be able to fight past the pain, it's fairly difficult to fight effectively when your eyes are swollen shut. The best way I can describe the pain of a direct blast is that if you can imagine someone scraping off the outer layer of your eyes, poring acid in them, and then grinding it in with sandpaper. This would be in addition to having your larynx invaded by wasps and toss in an NFL lineman sitting on your chest while slam dunking your lungs into a vat of nitroglycerine. Summing up, it won't go down as one of your better days.

[ThePatriot29]

David,
Were there any long term effects?

[yorec]

Nice image Blunder! You even sound like an OC instructor, lol.

I was sprayed a few years ago to certify to carry OC on the job. We used Deftech MK IVs. Probably some of the best stuff around at the time and still no slouch today...

I made sure to keep my eyes wide open to get the full effect of the spray - really wanted to know what it would be like in a worse case scenario.

The stream took me fully in both eyes... It did nothing for two or three seconds, but then the heat hit and my eyes slammed shut. I found I could open my eyes, but it took great effort to keep them open, even to flush with water. Never did much to my respiratory system, a little snotty to match my streaming eyes, but I coulda run a mile. However, I would have had trouble trying as I was effectively blind. I could make out brief visions and glimpses of what was going on around me. Just enough for a sight picture and trigger press I estimated......

As had been said before - affects everyone differently. But I bet everyone will agree its pretty uncomfortable. ;)

[Coronach]

Concur.

I've been sprayed or near-sprayed 4 times now.

1. Training. I have no idea what stuff was used, but it was OC-only, no CS involved. It was sprayed on my forehead, eyes and nose. It was quite painful, but I had several seconds of near-100% functioning before I began to wish for death. I had about 45 minutes of 'I don't wanna do anything except lay here and die' type pain, followed by an almost immediate relief from the symptoms. My eyes were a little sore afterwards, but it pretty much magically went away, all at once.

2. Training again, this time with Fox labs. Holy chit. Wanted to die. I still had a few seconds of near 100% functioning, then I just wanted to go fetal and cease to exist. I was sprayed in the eyes, up the nose, and into the mouth. I'm pretty sure I inhaled a good blast of the stuff too, as my airway really felt like it was blocked and that I could not breathe, which was the most horrifying part of the experience. Again, it all went away magically about 45 minutes (felt like 45 lifetimes) later...except, I had a nagging sensation of having something in my eye, which no amount of flushing or rinsing would relieve. The next morning I woke up and my eye was gummed shut. They sent me to the hospital, where I was diagnosed with a chemical burn on my cornea. They gave me some truly wonderful eye-numbing drops (tetracaine?) and I was fine.

3 and 4. Both were near-misses from grappling with resisting suspects who were subsequently hosed for their actions. Both times I got it on the side of my face and on my arms and hands. It felt like my skin was on fire but I would not say that it affected my performance in any way. Just remeber, if you have it on your hands, do not rub your eyes. ;)

Mike

[fed168]

To follow up on what Coronach said, or use the john. Take my word for it, it burns.

[David Blinder]

Patriot,

No long term effects other than a great respect for pepper spray.

Yorec, trust me that while Deftech is good stuff, it isn't as vile as Fox. In fact, one of the reasons some departments don't use Fox is because it's harsher and they are more concerned with liability and speed of booking process.

[Gomez]

(Moving Soapbox into Position)

(clears throat)

Most OC training sucks! It is unrealistic and leads to false expectations of effectiveness in the real world.

Standing still and being sprayed on the forehead or, even better, being sprayed on the finger and told to "wipe your eyelid" with the product is NOT the way that you should be exposed to OC.

You should be given a task to accomplish, preferably one that requires aggressive action, after being sprayed. You need to be exposed to spray in an adrenalized state and learn that you can work through its effects to accomplish your mission.

Example: You are armed with a padded baton. Your mission is to beat, I'm sorry, effectively engage, your opponent with baton strikes. He sprays you with a lovely 2 second burst of OC. Life Sucks. You continue with your mission. Locate him and deliver effective blows (he should probably have a striking pad) prior to being escorted to the water point.

OC is not used in a vacuum. It must not be trained in a vacuum. If OC is 100% percent effective in training, the training is not appropriate. OC is not 100% effective. Nothing is 100%.

I like OC. I feel that OC is a valuable addition to my personal arsenal. I carry OC at all times. If you carry a gun, I believe that you should carry OC. If you carry OC, I believe that you should have appropriate training and exposure to it.

While I realize that most people won't go to that extreme, at the very least you do need to know what OC is, when it's appropriate and when it's not, how it works, why it fails to work, how to employ it, advantages/disadvantages of different dispersal patterns, how to determine what's a "good" product (SHUs & percentages, carriers,propellants, can design, top design).


(Looks around, sheepishly. )

(Steps off soapbox.)

(Kicks soapbox into corner.)

(Scuttles aways.)

[ThePatriot29]

Thanks Gomez. I appreciate your opinion, and you made several good points.

If/when I try this, it would probably involve one of my friends who is also buying some Fox, and set up a scenario much like the one you described. I planned on getting sprayed full in the face, and then seeing if I was still able to complete my 'combat' mission.

Also, any suggestions on size/top style of Fox spray? I was thinking a 3 oz, flip top heavy stream.

[Gomez]

ThePatriot29:

One possible venue for, at least, an introductory OC course is to check out who in your area is offering training to the local security companies. Generally, it's a local law enforcement trainer who is training the security guards as a side-line. Given the low wage scale of security jobs, the per person cost is generally kept down. The training quality may vary greatly from "just the minimum required by state law" all the way up to "I only teach one program, the one that I've always wanted to attend." (This is ideal. I was very lucky the first time I tryed this.)

I think I've made this suggestion in one of the threads on ASP batons, it holds true here also. Is the training that your average security guard going to get in a 4 hour class going to be the latest, greatest, cutting edge stuff. No, of course not. But is it better than no training. Of course.

As to what I look for in an OC product:

1) minimum 100,000 SHU "in the can"
That works out to a minimum 5% 2million SHU formula. The 2% 5.3million Fox works out to 115,000 SHU "in the can". Good Stuff. 10% 2million works out to 200,000 SHU "ITC"

2) Fog/Burst dispersal. Streams are the equivalent of an old dime-store water gun. They require far to much precision for me to be comfortable with. Mist/Cones are a little better, but I'm a wasp & hornet killer kind of guy. A good Fog/Burst unit puts out OC like a can of wasp & hornet killer. Yeah, the can doesn't last as long, but I can put up a wall of nastiness very quickly.

3) Can & Top design. I like a top design that gives me a physical index as to which way the stuff comes out. I also like a design which incorporates a "passive safety" to help ensure that it only goes off when I want it to. Some examples of "good tops", for me, would be the recessed button with break-trough safety tabs as seen on the Aerko Punch II burst units, or the flip-top fogger used on the BodyGuard LE-10 foggers. Designs which I don't like would be the standard dish-top found on Aerko stream or mist units and any "trigger" units. I don't care for "active safeties" on OC cans.

Currently, I'm carrying a 3oz Body Guard LE-10 flip-top fogger unit (10% 2million SHU). I've carried Fox Labs 2% 5.3 Million in both the heavy cone, old-style (splatter)stream and the newer flip-top stream cans. I've always had very good luck with Aerko Punch II. And Winner International's Phase IV has served me well. The brand is nowhere near as important as the quality.

Though, I will suggest that noone carry a can of "WhoopAss" 15% 3 million OC. I actually found a can of this at a local pawn shop. Haven't picked any up to see how it actually stacks up, though.:)

[PeacefulWarrior]

BEEN THERE DONE THAT...several times

ADVICE: Avoid a steam room for a day or two after gettng sprayed it will draw it back out of your skin agian. I found out the hard way :(

If you want to test it do it under controlled conditions with someone else there,some people can still function thru the pain (but are essentially blinded) while others just shut down completly.

[Penman]

I think it's a good idea to get sprayed in training. You get to experience the pain, and know that you will recover and can still function to some extent. You will also know what you'd put someone else through if you use it. Some companies have "inert" units filled with water, and those can be good for training, to give you some practice. If you use those, have your "target" wear safety glasses as a precaution.

[C.R.Sam]

P-29...
Highly recommend you follow Blunder's advice and do your initial testing under controlled circumstances with the guidance of QUALIFIED instructor.

Most of the stuff works well on most people most of the time.

There are two rare extremes of exceptions to the above.
1. The person who can use it for nasal decongestant spray.
2. The person who has an allergic reaction, goes into anaphalactic shock and dies if not treated very rapidly.

Sam

[rlpinca]

I agree with Gomez. Just being sprayed isn't enough. When I was in the Sherif department's reserve program, they sprayed us in the face and then we had to fight off a "bad guy" who was trying to get our gun(training gun in a security holster) for 30 seconds. Having to actually wrestle with someone after being sprayed is fairly realistic and will show you what will happen if the wind is working against you or something like that.

One guy during that training session was like C.R. described. He took a full stream to the eyes and just stood there. After a second spray, everyone pretty much decided the guy was a freak of nature. Everyone else was coughing up their lungs just by standing next to him, but all that happened to him was he got a runny nose and red eyes. Then there was the other extreme where the biggest meanest looking guy of our bunch curled up into a ball and cried like a baby.

[mdlowry]

How effective is OC against someone wearing glasses. I know it will depend on the person, but I would think wearing glasses would keep most of it out of the eyes.

[Coronach]

Concur with gomez...my first mace training was just get sprayed, go decontaminate. My second round involved getting hosed and then delivering strikes to a hitman and cuffing a resisting subject. Then we got to go curl up and become fetal and wimper a lot. The second training sucked more, but was more valuable by far.

Also, most if not all OC cannisters have some manner of indexing so you know which way it points...but if for some reason yours doesn't, swtich. It would kinda suck to be about 180 degrees off...

Also, lock-out safetys don't always work. Off-duty I had a cannister of Fox Labs Liquid-Death (tm) discharge in my pants once. :eek: Fortunately it was aimed away from any, uhm, sensitive areas.

Mike

[rdavis@vanion.com]

There is another important reason to find a class. A class taught by an instructor, certified by his/her agency or the manufacturer of the OC you plan to carry, is also documentation you can use if you end up in court. You may have to explain to a judge why you chose to use OC, or why, based upon your knowledge of its limitations, you chose not to. Take a camera to the class, have someone get a good pic of you after you get hit. You may want to be able to document OC's effects on you, particularly if you have to explain why you used as much force as you did on someone trying to use OC on you.

[CRUSHER]

I`ve been through several OC and chemical agents classes.
But the one that really stands out in my mind was an instructor level class hosted by ArmorHoldings training division.
We where contaminated(sprayed) and then had to runuh walk a combat course fighting several people with red suits useing open hand then foam baton and finally training weapon takeing down the instructor. then you took a walk to let the adreniolin pass then you got to decon.
Wow it hurts just thinking about it
Bit to the point I agree with the thought get real training not just sprayed and then stick your head in a bucket of water
Training gives you the klnowlage to use OC and the confidence to be able to handle it if you recieve it , Its all to common to use it and get a good dose your self ! And this class should have good documentation for future referance just in case. Just my thoughts!

[NotQuiteSane]

Yep.

Which is why i don't trust it.

didn't do anything but stink.

NQS