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View Full Version : Par time for draw and fire 1 shot COM or double-tap COM 21ft


braindead0
September 30, 2002, 07:39 AM
This weekend I finally figured out where my wifes real weak point is for IDPA and SD in general, she has a problem with her draw and was doing a few things a bit wrong.

So, we went back to basics. Started with Draw fire 1-shot COM, them moved on to draw and double-tap COM. Probably burned through 50 or so rounds of that and got a lot of improvement.

The question I have, anybody have rough par times for this? On the double tap about the best I could do was 1.9 seconds, wife is up at around 3.

I'm thinking that's not too bad, not real fast though.

Double Naught Spy
September 30, 2002, 08:13 AM
Par times are quite variable depending on several circumstances. You hammer out some of the circumstances by noting it was IDPA, 21 feet, and COM (which I assume is on and IDPA target and is the 0 circle).

The questions I have are whether or not you and your wife are wearing concealment garments and types of holsters being used?

A reasonable par time is to draw from concealment and fire one shot in less than 2.0 seconds. Follow-up shots should be no more than 0.25-0.30 seconds later.

Still in general terms, concealment garments will add about 0.50 seconds to one's draw if they are normal garments like vests. Sweatshirts where you have to pull up with one hand and start the draw with the other will add more time, about 0.75 seconds. Lighter weight covers, like an open front button shirt worn untucked over your gun will often be quicker than a vest because it offer less reistence and so it might be only about 0.30 seconds slower than wearing no cover garment, assuming it doesn't flop around and actually slow you down.

It has been my observation that folks carrying IWB will tend to be slightly slower than those carrying OWB. OWB folks usually find it a little easier to get a grip on their gun and are less likely to grab a handful of shirt as can happen with IWB.

You mentioned your wife's best time was around 3.0 seconds. That isn't bad if she is hitting her shots, but it can be improved. Something else to consider is that she may be fighting a problem you don't have so much, upper body strength. Drawing the gun and bringing it to firing position involves overcoming the friction of the holster (thumb break too?), gravity, and mass of the weapon. The initial draw is often slow because of having to overcome all three of those aspects, especially for some women or smaller guys who do not have a lot of upper body strength. Once the gun is in motion, then the upward travel has to be stopped, the gun orientation changed, and then the gun thrust forward to shooting position, somewhere in there meeting with the off hand. Then the forward momentum needs to be stopped as well. For a given size and weight of gun, the person with more upper body strength will be more likely to handle the gun better and faster than the person with less.

This is not to say women can't be quick. A lot of the problems of body strength can be overcome with a proper choice of weapon, holster, and then a practiced smooth style (very important). Ever noticed how some of the people look slow but have quick times. Those are the folks with some of the smoothest practiced styles.

There are other considerations. How good is hand fit to the gun? Also, hand size can be a factor in one's holster. A guy with big hands carrying IWB will have more difficulty producing a gun flush against his body than carrying OWB where the gun may be less flush or actually away from the body. The smaller fingers of women may make producing an IWB gun a little quicker for this reason, but longer glamor fingernails may slow things down.

So there are a lot of things that can influence one's time. So when you ask about what is a good par time, consider it in context. If you are just looking for the best time for competition, then you both can improve and maybe some of the information here will help with getting a better time. It can't be stressed enough that practice and a proper draw sequence are critical. After that, then making the right clothing, gun, and holster decisions can also affect one's time.

braindead0
September 30, 2002, 08:42 AM
Thanks for the detailed response, and yes official IDPA targets and the standard points down scoring.

As far as concealment garments, neither of use was wearing one at the time. Holsters, Wife is using a basic uncle mikes nylon hip holster, not really CCW ready as it hangs a bit low. I was using a high rise paddle (safariland) that doesn't fit my GP-100 properly so it was riding really high, probably put me at a bit of a disadvantage there.

You mentioned your wife's best time was around 3.0 seconds. That isn't bad if she is hitting her shots, but it can be improved. Something else to consider is that she may be fighting a problem you don't have so much, upper body strength. Drawing the gun and bringing it to firing position involves overcoming the friction of the holster (thumb break too?), gravity, and mass of the weapon. She's hitting her targets, and her upper body strenght is good. I think the gun to hand fit is probably an issue, but she loves the stock 'stocks' on her Tracker.

Thanks again for the detailed answer, we were just curious if we are a slow as molasses, or at least passable. I'm mostly trying to build up my wife's confidence so that next year when we start diong more local IDPA she'll not feel quite as frazzled and hopefully have the muscle memory for drawing and getting on target built up a bit so that she can devote more thought to executing the COF properly (we both had problems with that last time).

Oh yeah, and we're both using revolvers which probably makes a bit of a difference on the follow-up shot timings.

Jim Watson
September 30, 2002, 11:17 AM
You are passable, right in line with my Sharpshooter times.
Your wife is rather slow. I suspect she needs instruction in draw technique, plenty of practice AFTER learning the moves, and a good holster. That nylon thing is an active handicap. As one top competitor said, you can pay $500 or $5000 for a gun, but a hundred bucks will buy you the best holster in the world. I think a Kydex holster from Blade-Tech or Talon Tactical would help a lot. (I know those places make specific lady's holsters with a little drop and offset. There are probably others.) Then some coaching from an experienced non-relative, then practice, practice, practice. Dry fire will do a lot for the draw.

braindead0
September 30, 2002, 02:29 PM
You are passable, right in line with my Sharpshooter times. Shoot, not bad considering using the totally wrong holster and having to grab the gun from under my armpit (just about).


That nylon thing is an active handicap. As one top competitor said, you can pay $500 or $5000 for a gun, but a hundred bucks will buy you the best holster in the world. I think a Kydex holster from Blade-Tech or Talon Tactical would help a lot. (I know those places make specific lady's holsters with a little drop and offset. There are probably others.) Then some coaching from an experienced non-relative, then practice, practice, practice. Dry fire will do a lot for the draw. Try finding a blade-tech or Talon Tactical holster for a 4" Taurus 627, our holster options are very limited. Granted, that revolver isn't IDPA 'legal' but the local club doesn't care for club matches and we have no intention of competing on large scale.

I'm looking for a better holster for her now, checking all the usual places and making inquiries. Luckily this weekend she'll be at a class (I'll be there assisting) and we can probably get the instructors to give her some pointers.

Double Naught Spy
September 30, 2002, 06:18 PM
Something I should have mentioned. First is that if your wife is doing well with her shooting and speed is her only downfall, speed with come. It is much more critical to be hitting the target than to be too fast to be accurate. It is a lot easier to work with somebody who is slower and accurate and fine tune their motions to be more efficient than somebody who won't slow down and is sloppy. It is always harder to get somebody to achieve better accuracy than speed. Speed with come with proper practice. Accuracy is an issue we all continue to work on forever. Since she has accuracy, she is ahead of the curve.

Jim Watson may be correct in that she might benefit from some instruction. We all can from time to time, if only to have a pro point out where we have started slouching.

I am going to guess that since your wife was not hampered by a concealment garment or issues of strength, then it may be that she is not getting a proper grip or she is not well aligned when her gun reaches shooting position such that she loses time finding the correct alignment of the sights. That issue may have to do with practice in getting it down correctly and can be done with an unloaded gun and not even shooting. Or, it may be a sighting issue on her part. Does she wear glasses and have to deal with focal issue problems? Middle-aged and older shooters have deteriorating eyesight find their arms are too short for their guns sometimes and it turns out they need reading glasses or bifocals. I have never seen something mess up a person so bad as having glasses to see far and then finding out bifocals are needed. With the new bifocals, they spend anywhere from 1-5 seconds tilting and retilting their head going between focussing on the front sight and then the target. I am sure that will only be a matter of time for me as well.

braindead0
September 30, 2002, 06:42 PM
I am going to guess that since your wife was not hampered by a concealment garment or issues of strength, then it may be that she is not getting a proper grip or she is not well aligned when her gun reaches shooting position such Pretty much what I observed, after having it pointed out she corrected pretty well.. she even found that she was faster if she spent the time to get a proper grip before even trying to pull it from the holster. I didn't notice that aspect, but she did.

As far as vision correction, we're both pretty young (she just turned 32 last year), I've got eye issues but wear corrective lenses and don't have too much trouble.

I may start shopping around for a gunsmith to install an insert in her front sight though, I think that would help with acquisition.

I'm also hoping that blade-tech gets back to me and says "yeah, the 'x' model will fit the Taurus 627". We tried a friends S&W K frame blade-tech and it fit okay, but didn't lock in as tight as I'd expect.