PDA

View Full Version : "Tactical" forend live up to the hype?


eap
September 27, 2002, 06:03 PM
i have a question about the "short" forends. rumor seems to be the short ones are less likely to jam since they don't overlap the receiver like a stock rem 870 forend

i've never noticed it myself, i tend to "short stroke" my 870 sometimes when dove hunting, or atleast i think i am. i've tried flexing the forend from side to side and cannot contact the receiver.

offers/suggestions welcome.

Tim Whittaker
September 27, 2002, 08:16 PM
I have an 870 PM with plain old wood stocks and haven't had a problem with short-stroking. I also took Dave McC's advice and burned through about 2 cases of ammo with it. My buddy has the same model and I can tell a difference between his and mine even though I can't see any difference between the two. .......Whit

Jim Crews
September 27, 2002, 09:27 PM
The reason most people short stroke the slide action shotgun is not because the forend is too long.

It is because most people do not understand that you have to keep your support arm under the forend of the shotgun when you rack the action.

Binding occurs between the action bars and receiver, barrel lug and at the forward end of the receiver. See the attachment.

The reason most people cannot keep their support arm directly under the forend is because most shotgun stocks are too long for the shooter. This forces the shooter to mount the shotgun out of the pocket, causing a situation where the shooter will cant the shotgun. When the shotgun is canted, lateral pressure is placed on the forend which is exacerbated when the shooter cannot keep his support arm under the forend. The result is twisting of the action bar, creating a bind between the action bar and the receiver as well as setting up a condition where the forend will contact the receiver and the barrel lug.


My two cents worth, or maybe even less.

www.marksmans.com

Jm Crews
Copyright 2002 by Jim Crews

Jim Crews
September 27, 2002, 09:33 PM
Here is the attachment that I forgot to post with the previous message.

9mmMike
September 27, 2002, 10:50 PM
Neat pic Jim. May I assume that is from your book? The Copyright tipped me off. :)
Mike

Jim Crews
September 27, 2002, 11:22 PM
Yes sir it is .

I just cut and pasted it, hoping it would answer a few questions.

Jim

Dave McC
September 28, 2002, 09:33 AM
After much use of 870s,I've not had a short stroke yet.I take a 36" shirt sleeve,which may be a factor,and I have a pretty good and well honed loading stroke. The extended forends are for those with shorter arms.

Jim has it about stock length as far as "Serious" shotguns go.Being a behemoth,the ideal trap stock for me would be over 15" LOP, but I do best work with the factory stocks on my two "Serious" 870s.

And, I could do OK with the 12 1/2" LOP on the kids' 870YE. "Serious" shotguns are shot like rifles, to oversimplify.

One adjusts to a stock length by adjusting where they support the weapon when mounted.The extended forend enables shortarmed(No bad jokes, sailors) people to use a pump.

A note....

Pumps are handled and shot a little differently than other types of shotguns. Other shotguns are supported by the forward hand, and the firing hand pulls the weapon back into the shoulder cup. Pointing the shotgun is controlled mostly by the support hand.

Many pumpgunners use the support hand to pull the weapon into the cup, and get a running start on loading the next shell this way. More control is done by the firing hand using this method.Neither method has a clear advantage using non pumpguns, but pumpgun shooters often do better work with the latter.

A few cases of ammo will eliminate bad strokes, practice well and often to get past this.

HTH....

MrMurphy
September 28, 2002, 02:28 PM
It's not a "tactical" fore-end it's the standard police/riot gun forend. A "tactical" fore-end would probably be the SureFire one with a built in light (very effective, trust me, I've been on the wrong end of one in an excercise........)

Jim Crews
September 28, 2002, 04:16 PM
>One adjusts to a stock length by adjusting where they support the weapon when mounted.The extended forend enables shortarmed(No bad jokes, sailors) people to use a pump.

I do not agree with that. The buttstock goes into the firing shoulder's pocket. The length of pull is extremely important regarding the cheek weld and for recoil transmission through the body.

>Pumps are handled and shot a little differently than other types of shotguns. Other shotguns are supported by the forward hand, and the firing hand pulls the weapon back into the shoulder cup. Pointing the shotgun is controlled mostly by the support hand.

I do not agree with that either. The firing hand is used to pull the buttstock into the shoulder. The support hand is just that, it supports the forend of the shotgun until the action needs to be racked.


>Many pumpgunners use the support hand to pull the weapon into the cup, and get a running start on loading the next shell this way. More control is done by the firing hand using this method.Neither method has a clear advantage using non pumpguns, but pumpgun shooters often do better work with the latter.

If you are pulling to the rear on the forend when using a slide action shotgun, you will reduce your probability of hitting. One reason is that as soon as the shot breaks and you start running the forend to the rear, the first thing that happens is you will start to raise the muzzle, and you will do that before the shotload or the slug leaves the barrel. If you are doing that, it is going to difficult for you to follow through on the front sight and extablish a subsequent sight picture. I have seen this so many times it is not funny and I have seen shooters who practice this miss a 10 inch steel plate at 5 yards.

When you shoot the slide action shotgun, the first form of follow through is to find the front sight, the second is to attempt to establish a subsequent sight picture, the third is to run the forend all the way to the rear and then all the way forward, and the fourth is to reset the trigger. DO NOT USE THIS TECHNIQUE WITH AN ITHICA SHOTGUN or one of similar action design. Ithica shotguns will fire as soon as you run the action forward.

>A few cases of ammo will eliminate bad strokes, practice well and often to get past this.

I do not see the need to run a few cases of ammo to teach a shotgunner how to run the shotgun properly. Usually it only takes about 5-15 rounds of birdshot to get them in the groove.

And a few cases of ammo is not going to eliminate a buttstock that is way too long for a shooter and a few cases will not correct bad habits or poor technique. You can learn to shoot the shotgun incorrectly and many do and have for a long time. That does not make them right.

Many men shy away from running 300 rounds of #4 or #2 shot, 100 rounds of Double 0 buck and 50 rounds of slugs per day. The reason is because they get hurt by their shotgun. With a correctly fitting shotgun you can easily shoot this many per day with a slide action shotgun.

Another problem with a stock that is too long, is that the first time they cannot get a good cheek weld and the buttstock pops them on the cheek bone, they are done for the rest of the day. Because every time they shoot they will pull their head off the shotgun, pushing the stock low and right, raising the muzzle and getting a high left miss.

So, now you have the problem of teaching a woman how to shoot a shotgun that is too long. You let her shoot the shotgun incorrectly with too long a stock and you will damage her breasts to the point that they will no long produce milk. Not to mention the number of men, who have inadvertently mounted the shotgun on the biceps and damaged the nerve there or ended up with a bruise from the shoulder to the forearm because their stock was too long.

So, the answers are to set your shotgun up in such a manner as to fit your body, learn how to manipulate the shotgun correctly and learn how to apply the shotgun. With a properly set up shotgun you can shoot it all day long with no more discomfort that shooting a 30-30. My 16 year old daughter shoots the crap out of my 870 using buck and slug and she is only 5-4 and has never once complained about recoil or short stroking.

You know why?

The shotgun fits her little body.

My 3 cents worth for today.

Jim Crews
Copyright 2002

Dave McC
September 30, 2002, 07:00 AM
Jim, if you search the Archives, you'll find a few dozen times I've spoken of the need for proper fitting for best work with a shotgun.

As for adjusting for LOP by placement of the support hand, you, I, and every other shotgunner out there does EXACTLY this every time we shoot wearing different clothes.Or wearing/not wearing body armor.

Waterfowl guns used during bad weather require a sightly shorter stock than a dove gun, used in T shirt conditions by a given shooter.LOP is more than just the distance between center of pad to center of trigger.

A stock that's too long is too long. One that's just a bit too long or short, we compensate by placing the support hand more rearward or forward.

We also tend to take a longer hold when pass shooting than on a snap shot. Holding the forend closer to the rear gives a little more leverage, thus swinging the bbl a bit faster.Holding further out reduces variations in the swing.

All else equal, it's easier to deal with a stock that's too short than one that's too long.

And if pulling the forend to the rear is so egregious, how come so many things I've shot using this technique died rat thar? Ever shoot a triple on a covey rise with a riot bbled 870?

Figure three COM hits on targets the size of a coffee cup moving on three different vectors at speeds of 20 MPH or more in under 3 seconds.

For that matter, I've done very well on fast COFs using that technique.

Also, please explain how much we pull off the target by using that method when dwell time of the charge in the bbl is measured in milliseconds.

And BTW, approximately 40% of the hundreds of people I taught to shoot for the MD Dept of Public Safety were female. I made myself unpopular with the administration at the time by repeatedly telling them that if they wanted to make shooters out of all these folks, shorter stocks and longer training were mandatory and crucial.

I also found that sanding the toe of the pad slightly to remove the pointy part improved comfort and performance of both women and barrel chested men.

I think we agree on the importance of fit, and our differences here are more semantic than actual.

Also, I don't know how well I'd hold up to a 500 round marathon. Methinks fatigue would be more of a factor than kick, because I use good form and my stocks fit. If you're supplying the ammo, I'm willing to give it a try,tho(G)...

Jim Crews
September 30, 2002, 11:11 AM
Dave,

You are probably right, our differences are more semantic than anything else.

As for missing, I have seen people miss 10 inch steel at 7 yards. Their primary problem is follow through.

I am withdrawing from TFL, this will be my last post.

Take care.

Jim