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jrsower
September 27, 2002, 12:06 PM
You're eating at the Pizza Inn buffet about 8 at night. You finish and walk up front to pay. As you turn the corner to where the cash register is located, you see a BG (by himself) holding a gun over the counter as the pizza boy is scrambling in the register (obviously gathering loot for the BG.) Said BG hasn't seen you yet. You're alone, no family with you. The place has maybe 10 folks left eating. You have your CC weapon on you. What do you do?

This seems a very realistic and possible scenario to me. I frequent the pizza inn just down the road from work. It's been hit probably 3 times in the past two years.

Shodan
September 27, 2002, 12:28 PM
Since this is slightly more than theoretical for you, is he between you and the exit or can you make a run for the door in the opposite direction?

Shodan

Christopher II
September 27, 2002, 12:31 PM
There's probably an emergency exit somewhere in the dining room. Now would be a good time to use it.

Once I'm in a safe position to do so, 911.

- Chris

LASur5r
September 27, 2002, 01:28 PM
If those ten folks are together, I'd gather them up and make like a sheperd and get the flock out of there.
Then do the 9-1-1 call.

Joe Demko
September 27, 2002, 01:32 PM
Somebody has to say it so that everybody else can critique it...

He hasn't seen me? That means I can make a good, clean headshot on the BG and drop him right where he stands.

Litlman
September 27, 2002, 01:54 PM
Let him have Pizza Hut's Money. If it escalates further the do what you have to. Can you make that shot or will you hit the Pizza Boy? Shooting at a guy with a gun pulled is alot differant than shooting at papper. Besides your reaction time is probably slow due to the digestion of that heavy pan pizza..............





Litlman......................................

Erich
September 27, 2002, 02:44 PM
Well, "let him have the money" is one thing, let him threaten me/others with a gun is another.

When I managed a gun store a dozen or so years back, I had a customer in his 70s who experienced a similar situation while he was standing in line at the bank. He shot the gunman in the back of the head (just like Golgo-13 would do).

DA didn't charge him.

Personally, if I have the drop on a jackass who's threatening someone else with a gun, I might be likely to drop the hammer on him.

In the words of Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle,
"Think of it as evolution in action."

King
September 27, 2002, 03:14 PM
If time permits, I would call 911 and advise what was going down. I would also try to keep from being seen for as long as possible but still able to observe.

That said, it's hammer back and take aim if a clean shot is available. If it looks like the robber does not intend to kill (but merely using his weapon to scare the clerk and rob), I let'em go. If it appears that the clerk is going to be killed or shot, I would likely take him out.

Simply stated, I don't think I could stand by and watch an innocent person be executed.

It's obviously a judgement call, better to avoid bloodshed if at all possible but unless you're there to see how it's going down, you can only speculate.

Bogie
September 27, 2002, 06:17 PM
Yeah, if the guy's waving the gun around, no big deal. If it looks like he's raising it up to aim, or makes a similar "more threatening" motion, put him down.

gryphon
September 27, 2002, 06:58 PM
Be a good witness until the guy appears to do more than just menace the poor pizza guy. After that you might want to dispatch with all due hast.

Don't just go in there blasting away.

OF
September 27, 2002, 10:52 PM
If the scumbag shows a pistol in the commisson of a robery, It'd be front-sight/press before you can say 'justifiable'. A situation like this will go from 'looks like empty threat' to 'dead Pizza guy' waaaay faster than you are going to be able to go to red, draw and save the day.

If a slimball points a gun at someone in a threatening manner, you have to assume they will shoot. If you don't, and they do, how could you live with yourself? How much slack are we going to give a scumbag who threatens (and possibly plans) to kill someone for money on the hope that you won't have to shoot and become a part of this? If you don't act, you are gambling not your life, but the life of the Pizza guy on the outcome.

If I took the shot, I could live with the wondering whether or not the guy was really going to shoot or not. I could not live with knowing that I could have saved the Pizza guy's life and chose not to.

- Gabe

k5blazer
September 27, 2002, 11:17 PM
I'd back away slowly and call 911. I am not trained to intervene in a situation such as this. Can't carry legally in my state anyway.

King
September 28, 2002, 07:41 AM
For a fact....if you pop the BG, the world is no worse off for it. An armed robber assigns a value to his life equal to the amount of money in the cash drawer.

Dead BG's with gun in hand should viewed as justifiable.

Greybeard
September 28, 2002, 08:21 AM
Unless life is in "immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent", lots of risks - possibly only over someone else's property.

If the place has recently been robbed 3 times without anyone getting shot, what makes you to think there will be shooting this time? Unless you start it?

OF
September 28, 2002, 08:35 AM
possibly only over someone else's property'Possibly', but possibly not. The armed robber is threatening to kill the guy over money. Maybe he'll do it, maybe he won't. It's not my responsibility to figure out what's in his head. I didn't point my gun at someone in the commission of a robbery. When the bad guy decided he was going to commit armed robbery, he lost the benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned.

- Gabe

OF
September 28, 2002, 08:39 AM
If the place has recently been robbed 3 times without anyone getting shot, what makes you to think there will be shooting this time? Unless you start it?You're not starting anything, your're stopping it. And what's so great about getting robbed 3 times? If someone stood up and stuck a .45 in one of those guys faces maybe there wouldn't be any more robberies there. The first time one of the underprivileged entrepreneurs gets a permanent dirt nap I'll guarantee the rest of the little honor students will think twice about armed robbery, at least in that joint.

- Gabe

rlpinca
September 28, 2002, 10:50 AM
What about his friend that you don't see standing off to the side? You might turn a regular robbery into a bloodbath. What happens if your gun gets hung up in your shirt or he turns right as you start your draw? Most armed robberies don't have anyshots fired. I know there is the possibility, but there's also the possibility of you getting the other 10 customers killed if you try to be the hero. It's not your money, pizza hut isn't going to miss it.

It's hard to say what to do unless you're actually there and can see the bg's actions and attitude. If you truly believe the bg is going to start shooting, by all means remove his head. Just realize that not everyone thinks the same as us and if something goes wrong the da is going to give into the pressure from the media and the antis.

Greybeard
September 28, 2002, 11:19 AM
' Don't know what state some of you guys are in, but the "He-just-needed-killin'-defense" ain't taught here.

Yep, in Texas, if all went down as planned, the above could and possibly should be ruled "justifiable". But that's not to say the legal system would not subsequently give the "hero" the ride of a lifetime - in all probability, over someone else's money!

Ben Shepherd
September 28, 2002, 12:33 PM
Get mine out quietly, get a good sight picture(assuming clean line of sight), then inform the BG he has 2 choices, drop it and get on the floor, or get dropped where he stands.

This way if he has buddies hid, they have to decide if they can get you before you sqeeze off.

One of four things, or a combination of them, has gone wrong.

1. The pizza clerk just found out why he shouldn't be an anti.

2. The clerk wasn't paying attention.

3. The pizza place enforces a stupid policy.

4. There are no other people in the place with the ability/backbone to get involved.

This exact situation happened twice in my county last year.

In the first case the BG ended up being shot by several patrons.

The second time the BG pulled his gun and asked for the money. The cashier asked him if he was sure he wanted to do this. When the BG answered "Yeah, why?", he was warned he better look behind him. He turned around and found himself facing several drawn weapons.

No charges filed against any of the patrons in either case.

No attempted robberies so far this year.

Gotta love a pro-gun state, that's attempting to live by the 2nd ammendment.

King
September 28, 2002, 01:21 PM
My last comment on the subject....it ain't got squat to do with the business's money. Nada, zero, no nothing. No one cares about the pizza places money or protecting the money. The BG is presumably about to kill an unarmed, innocent guy.

If the BG gets dropped, you ask that worker bee if he's glad that you stepped in. You'll be his hero and you'll have done society a favor.

Personally, I'm tired of hearing about armed robbers. When they start getting popped by other people who are fed up with it, perhaps armed robbery incidents will reduce a bunch.

Do you owe it to the community to not do something stupid such as putting others at serious risk or hitting a bystander with shot's you can't make? Yes......

I think if you were there, you would know what action to take for the greater good.

Mannlicher
September 28, 2002, 05:55 PM
There is only one good response. Kill the guy. His act of holding a gun on another person is reason enough. Call 911 after it is over. Cops are only good for taking reports anyway.

richhelton84
September 28, 2002, 07:06 PM
In that situation there is no doubt in my mind what I would do, and there shouldn't be any doubt in the minds of anyone else either. Who knows if he is or isn't going to shoot the cashier?

If you put a bullet through his head, everyone but him is going to make it out fine. There's enough scumbags in the world anyway, and I'm sure we can get by with one less.

What if you don't take action, and he shoots the cashier, and then starts shooting other people? Then it should be your butt in the frying pan as well.

If you have the perfect opportunity to stop a situation like that, and you choose to do nothing, then I must ask WHY THE HECK YOU HAVE A CARRY PERMIT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Rich

Christopher II
September 28, 2002, 07:31 PM
To protect my life.
Not anyone else's.

- Chris

richhelton84
September 28, 2002, 07:41 PM
So are you saying that you'd wait around and let him shoot everyone else in the restaurant as long as he didn't point the gun at you? I think that if you have the opportunity to stop something like that, you should do it.

Rich

easymoney
September 28, 2002, 08:04 PM
So the BG has a gun drawn and is pointing it at the employee. At what point do you decide whether or not he is going to shoot? What if the BG happens to have stolen a pistol with a light trigger to use in this heist?

It's not about the money!! This idiot is probably going to kill someone and God has placed you in the position to stop him dead in his tracks. If you hesitate you might be feeling like the trooper who killed himself a couple days ago- because he was in the position to prevent a murder (several) and made a small mistake- now the people in the bank are dead (Nebraska bank robbery gone bad).

I vote to drop him where he stands as soon as a clean shot is available.

easymoney
September 28, 2002, 08:05 PM
What's the law say will happen to you if you do drop him even though you had clear access to an exit???

Blackhawk
September 28, 2002, 09:05 PM
King is right, or at least that's what I'd do.

Christopher II
September 28, 2002, 09:08 PM
No.
I'm saying the same thing I say whenever these type of threads come up.
I'm saying that I would protect myself, and a few other people who I feel obligated to, first. That means retreating, if possible. In this case, it almost certainly would be. I'd be out of the resturant through the kitchen/emergency exit/convienent window/any other line of retreat available.

- Chris

Chris W
September 28, 2002, 09:25 PM
easymoney,

I don't know about the law in all states, but I do know that here in NC, I have the right to use 'justifiable deadly force' in the place of anyone else who has that same right. Now, it is conceivable that pizza-counter guy does not have this right in this situation--if, for instance, he has escalated a conflict that wasn't originally about money by pulling a knife and insulting the BG's girlfriend. Right--pretty thin odds. Chances are very good he has the right to use deadly force here (armed robbery is a violent crime and justifies deadly force, at least here); so shooting the BG where he stands and without warning is legally supported, unless the clerk has really thrown a wrench in the machine.

That doesn't mean it's gonna be pleasant to deal with the legal system, though, and it doesn't mean there are no consequences to killing a guy, even a B guy. I think I'd draw from cover, if I could get back around that corner, get a bead on the guy and hope nothing comes his deadly threat to the Pizza guy; maybe that's just an Airsoft he's wavin' around. ;) I'd hate myself, of course, if he did kill the kid (and, of course, I'd shoot him).

cw

Glamdring
September 29, 2002, 05:09 AM
Ben: Where do you live? I want to move!

***

I have intervened (stopped) in assaults a few times in the past. I know I would intervene in a situation like this, how exactly would depend on the details (ie angles of fire etc). Ideally would engage from cover and some type of supported shooting position.

IMO defending someone else is the price I pay in exchange for the hope that someone else might help me or one of the people I care about if some goblin has the drop on us.

I know that at least one female family member was aided by strangers when being attacked/stalked by aggressive/violent ex. BTW she did file police report, get restraining order, and obtain a CCW after that incident.

I am curious, if the goblin was threatening a women that was pregant or that had children would those that would retreat from this situation do anything different? If so, why?

pbarrick
September 29, 2002, 06:18 AM
I would leave the scene and call the cops on my cell phone from a position of cover. You can't outdraw a weapon that's already in play and you'll do more good by making sure that the cops and EMS get there ASAP.

DT Guy
September 29, 2002, 08:53 AM
How did we get to a time and place where pointing a gun at someone and threatening their life ISN'T threatening enough to justify defensive force...?

What would YOU expect to happen if you pointed a pistol at someone near Jeff Cooper or Ray Chapman?

Trying to decide when the pistol pointing turns 'dangerous' is simply pointless.

Larry

rlpinca
September 29, 2002, 09:52 AM
Like I said before, what about his friend that's over by the door? Unless you're there in the situation you can't really decide what to do. If you just automatically say"I'd shoot the bastard" then you aren't really prepared for anything. You've watched too much TV and will give gun owners a bad name.

However if you start asking questions like a few other people have, then you're prepared and can make an inteligent choice on what to do. Think about who's on the other side of the bg's head, if he's alone, if your bullet is going to go through his head into the parking lot into a the first responding officer. How about if you have an IWB holster with a shirt tucked around it and a jacket on top of that? If you know you can't draw quickly and quitely, then you're screwed unless you hide and slowly draw before getting itno position.

If you were in the situation and just automatically jump up and start shooting without analyzing the situation, you're an idiot. His friend by the door shoots you, original bg is startled by shot and shoots the cashier, someone jumps up to check on you and bg thinks they are going for your gun, and it goes on and on.

But if you look all around, he's alone and obviously focused on the money and not paying attention, nobody is on the other side of him, and you know where the bullet is going to stop, then you can proceed to remove a large chunk of his head.

OF
September 29, 2002, 10:00 AM
If you just automatically say"I'd shoot the bastard" then you aren't really prepared for anything. You've watched too much TV and will give gun owners a bad name.You know, you're not the only one here who comprehends the importance of awareness and analysis of the situation as best you can. No one that I have noticed is saying you should act in the most ill-informed spontaneous and irresponsible manner possible. OF COURSE you take into account where your rounds will land, how many perps there are, where they are, how you are armed, etc. etc. etc. It is a GIVEN that you will intervene in the most careful and prudent manner possible after weighing your options and evaluating the scene.

The scenario is that there is a lone slime involved in an armed robbery.

That said, can we get back to the important point of whether or not you would intervene, assuming you could do it without shooting anyone's kids. :rolleyes:

- Gabe

Capital Punishment
September 29, 2002, 12:43 PM
He has a gun. I have a clear shot. I will take it. Simple as that. Im doing the world good by removing the BG from the gene pool.

Any questions?

BTW- lets say he was pointing the gun directly at the clerks head. Well, that scenario calls for a headshot. By shooting him in the head, you remove the possibility of him "accidentally" shooting, as you remove his ability to move, let alone shoot.

Ben Shepherd
September 30, 2002, 07:41 AM
I live in Utah.

It is actually legal to carry openly fully loaded, as long as you have a permit. I and several others that I am acquainted with do so quite often. I have yet to have anyone do more than a second glance when doing so.

When carrying it is law that when aproached by an officer you must inform them you are armed. I've talked "officially" to police more than a dozen times since obtaining my permit. Not one of them was even slightly upset that I was armed.

Double Naught Spy
September 30, 2002, 08:42 AM
No doubt that you can shoot the bad guy, at least in most states.

What I didn't follow was just how far you were from the bad guy. At a local place where I like to sit, I would be a good 20 yards from the register. Do I really want to attempt that far of a shot?

Probably the most critical question would pertain to where I had gone wrong in assessing the situation. There is one bad guy that I see. There are 10 people whom I believe to be patrons. There is one clerk giving the bad guy the money or trying to. Okay, so where are the other bad guys and where are the other pizza employees. Chances are, he isn't alone, so I am no doubt missing some critical information about the situation. Maybe his partner(s) is outside, inside, or both.

If I did not see the bad guy come in and don't notice him until the action starts, how do I know he is alone in the store? Does his partner(s) have the manager going through the safe in the back of the store. Maybe his partner is outside the pizza shop behind me with a shotgun. Have I surveyed everything sufficiently enough to know that if I do decide to act that I won't immediately come under fire or the other 10 patrons won't immediately come under fire as a result of my action. I realize I am not responsible if a bad guy (that I see now or who may also be in the store or outside looking in with his shotgun) shoots the other patrons, but do I risk that?

rlpinca
October 1, 2002, 12:43 AM
GRD the scenario is that you SEE a lone gunman. Nobody said they would act in an uninformed manner, but only a few brought up how they would analyze it and what potential dangers there were or are we supposed to assume that everyone thinks before shooting? :rolleyes:

CMichael
October 1, 2002, 10:07 AM
I am concerned about the other people in the restaurant. There is a danger to them to potentially starting a shoot out in a crowded restaurant.

Michael

Hemicuda
October 1, 2002, 10:23 AM
You say I am undiscovered, and that I have a CLEAR shot... meaning that my bullet path (even beyond the perp) is clear?

I drop him... 2 COM, and 1 to the head... no question in my mind...

I was in fear for the life of the pizzaguy... and also my own... one less idjit in the world... (or suicide by CCW, if you prefer)

MP Freeman
October 3, 2002, 11:38 PM
Pull the pin on my Concealed Carry Grenade, roll towards perp, jump for cover.

Or

Mentally burn good picture of what I saw and take note of time and description of threat. Strategically manuevar my hind quarters away from threat. Check holster, Open cell phone, call in Po-po, be good witness for po-po, go home.

If other people are in resturaunt, and there is a crowd of customers, perp prolly won't discharge gun. And prolly has a buddy in a get away car outside, beware of that. Don't know if perp is alone or with others.

OF
October 4, 2002, 10:54 AM
are we supposed to assume that everyone thinks before shooting?Actually, yes, I was assuming that everyone would think before acting. For me, the big question of the scenario was whether or not it was morally defensible to engage someone in the act of armed robbery.

- Gabe

Razorplane
October 4, 2002, 06:55 PM
richhelton84,

No, I think what Chris may be saying is that in this situation, since he was unnoticed and his life was not immediately threatened, the more prudent thing would be to slip out and call 911.

It's one thing to take on the responsibility to protect yourself and your family, and yet another to take on the responsibility to protect society at large.

richhelton84
October 4, 2002, 08:21 PM
quote: "It's one thing to take on the responsibility to protect yourself and your family, and yet another to take on the responsibility to protect society at large."

That's very true. I hadn't thought about slipping out. Most of the Pizza Huts I've been in have the exits to due right and left of the cash register, so there wouldn't be much of a chance of slipping out without the BG noticing you. Then, if you did somehow get to the door unnoticed, he'd definitely know you were trying to get out.

I just assumed that the people in Pizza Hut were all unable to exit the restaurant because of the position of the doors to the cash register. Smashing and jumping out a window might be an option. ;)

Rich

Fred Hansen
October 4, 2002, 08:30 PM
What GRD said.

All I would add is that:

"I was in fear for my life, and that of the employee's. I am very upset right now, and I would like to speak with my attorney."

Edward429451
October 4, 2002, 10:02 PM
The scenario spelled it out that I am alone, without my family.

I'd immediately move closer to the ground towards cover or at least concealment (while making assessments and drawing), and if he didn't lower his weapon out of the clerks face in about 2 seconds or so I'd take him out. Then to calm the patrons of the sound of the shot, I'd say loudly "Oh my god, he was going to shoot the clerk, is everyone OK?" "someone call the police..."

Lotsa good replies. Lots to think about quickly.

the blind lefty
October 5, 2002, 01:29 AM
my first thought:where's the other guy?
besides,
i'm not questioning wether or not killing the guy is lawfull,i just note an all too willingness to kill.excuses for playing God.
-i agree that hesitation is your enemy. you must morally uphold the safety of the general public. it is time to be a hero.-
i say,take cover and assess the situation. if/when the money is had and the criminal is turning to flee,then give him a choice. if the situation escalates before hand,you have to shoot.
i think we all know the rules of intervention,so i won't bother with the play by play.

Chuck Ames
October 7, 2002, 12:24 PM
Folks,

There are too many factors to say what you would do one way or the other. Many of the leading defense experts say do nothing; be a good witness.

Sorry, but most of us are good shots, not great, though as men we tell ourselves we are. I am SRT qualified, Executive Protection qualified, and I am an agent with the Army's CID, but I can't say that I would start putting rounds downrange.

Are you sure that once you shoot, he is not going to get a shot or shots off? I saw the two to com, one to the head post, and whatever. I've seen a lot of federal agents shoot, and I'm not very confident that many of them could make the shot under stress.

And do you ever throw rounds at the range? For most of us the answer is probably. Even if it's every once in a while. Are you sure you won't miss and spark a gunfight, which possible kills the person you were saving or even yourself. Gunfighters miss all the time. And I'm talking about cops, who generally have more training than a lot of the people on this post. The question is: how good are you? Most people I know are not very good at appraising their own shooting skill.

Law is also a critical factor, too. If I'm not mistaken, Florida requires you to retreat as long as there is an avenue of escape, but Alabama lets you whack a car-jacker.

Mr. Capital Punishment,

If you ever shoot someone pray that no one associates your name with that post. We shoot to stop. Period! The army, of which I am a member, shoots to kill (actually wound, but that's some theoretical crap about it taking two soldiers to care for a wounded one). So you put one in the BG's brain bucket and you had better be prepared to articulate why you did it. If you come across as I'm ready to kill any bad guy stupid enough to cross my path, the defense, media, and media influenced prosecutor is going to have a field day.

"Mr. Punishment, is it not true that you didn't really need to fire that head shot; that you were simply looking to kill some one?

No? Well did you not one post a message where you stated that you would be happy to remove someone from the 'gene pool.'"

It's downhill from there. It doesn't matter if what you did was right or wrong, but how it is perceived.

There is no easy answer. In some situations, you may shoot based on nothing more than things which you can't articulate, a feeling, a premonition. In others, you may sense that there is no need to shoot. That the criminal is merely posturing. I can't be sure and neither can anyone here.

Regards to all,
Chuck Ames

He who knows neither himself nor his enemy is a fool, and will meet defeat in every battle.
~Sun Tzu

Master Blaster
October 8, 2002, 07:22 AM
I am NOT a police officer.

Starting a gunfight in a restaurant over a few dollars is s bad idea.

I would get the 10 people out the back door, and call 911 on my cell phone.


Or I could call in a B-52 strike on my space command radio.:rolleyes:

You folks who would take em out with a head shot need to stop watching movies and get a clue. Other wise you will end up dead, or in a cell with Buba.

justmeandmydr200
October 8, 2002, 12:18 PM
Valid responses!
My choice:
A. Get the other ten people outside for safety.
B. Cover the BG for them.
C. Call 911.
D. Continue armed monitoring of the situation, shoot if need be to
save the clerk.
E. Secure your weapon as soon as the cops pull up.

pbarrick
October 9, 2002, 09:26 AM
Leave the area. Call the cops. Your job as a citizen is to report crime, not stop it--unless you are the one being assaulted or know the person being assaulted and are willing to intervene.

Survival is the goal here, guys, not trying to relive your favorite episode of [fill in name of your favorite '80's action TV show]. If it doesn't play as well in reruns, how do you think it will play in court?

Double Naught Spy
October 9, 2002, 03:29 PM
Master Blaster and others, I do agree that there is no reason in starting a gun fight over a few dollars of somebody else's money. And, I would definitely put the lives of my family and myself before those of complete strangers. I would not want to START a gunfight if I didn't have adequate cover.

However, it should be pointed out that the gunfight would never be over protecting somebody else's money. Contrary to very popular opinion, espeically by those who think compliance is the answer to getting out of crimes safely, once the bad guy produced a weapon and threatened the employee, robbery only becomes the minor goal of his actions and catalyst for putting him and the employee in the same situation. At that point, it IS a life and death situation. The bad guy has the means, opportunity, and ability, plus has expressed the will to kill the employee. Robbery is no longer consequential to the situation in terms of evaluating whether or not you should act.

Besides, how do you really know robbery is the intent? Like some other murders, maybe this is being staged to look like a robbery gone bad to hide the fact that somebody wanted the employee killed.

Also, even if it is just a robbery at that point, who is to say the bad guy won't still off the employee once he gets the money or won't turn and start blasting the crowd? For some reason, many people who are into compliance feel that a robbery is a form of contractual situation whereby the robber is obligated to let you live if you give what is requested. Sure, some robbers will then split, but in about 10-12% of the time, they go ahead and shoot people anyway and the people shot are not always the clerks, but may be other customers (the statistic is supposedly FBI data presented in one of the documentary detective shows on Discover or TLC). In at least two case I have seen from video tapes, the robber gets the goods, exits the store, then runs back in like he forgot something and what he forgot was to cap a couple of the folks in the store. After doing so, he then leaves again.

Once threats are made and a weapon produced, the situation really is no longer about robbery, is it?

Spectre
October 9, 2002, 07:57 PM
If the place has recently been robbed 3 times without anyone getting shot, what makes you to think there will be shooting this time?

Robbery, by definition, places the victim in fear for his life. Had I a clear shot, absent other data that could influence, shot would be taken.

Yelf
October 10, 2002, 03:22 PM
Ironically this near exact scenario happned to my sister in law. She worked at Pizza Hut (Hit) and was robbed at gunpoint. He was yelling and waving a gun around, next thing she knows PD rolls up in the parking lot and the guys says "I'm busted" drops the gun and walks out with his hands up. Unknown to the employees a customer slipped out the door called the police and they arrived in time to catch the guy in the act.
No self deputized hand cannon action needed.
I say leave the society protection to the police or get deputized and trained to handle close combat situations.
CCW does not give you the right/permission to do the police's job.
You never know maybe the guy pointing the gun at the clerk is actually pointing his gun at a bad guy in the back and you shot him only to find out he was a off duty cop or even better you shoot the guy and someone in the restaurant shoots you.

LiveWire
October 11, 2002, 10:10 AM
Walk up to the BG and say, while pointing a finger at the floor: "Careful! Don't slip on the anchovy." When he looks down in confusion, connect a right hook to his jaw.

Alternative outcome: The expression "You need it like you need a hole in the head" suddenly loses its colloquial appeal.

:rolleyes: :D



Chris...

To protect my life. Not anyone else's.Is that how much other people's lives are worth to you? Have a heart, dude!

I would first seek cover; then, from behind it, I'd instruct BG in a loud voice to drop his weapon. If he didn't, I'd drop him.

Look at it on the bright side. Even if you DID get canned (and who says you will?) you're looking at a lifetime supply of free pizza, delivered directly to you cell; compliments of the house. :p

Christopher II
October 11, 2002, 12:51 PM
Is that how much other people's lives are worth to you? Pretty much. Not to say that I don't value the lives of strangers, I just value their lives a lot less than I value mine.

Have a heart, dude! I have one, it's sitting on my mantlepiece in a jar even as we speak. ;) The trick is not let one's heart override one's brain. Seriously, are you truly willing to risk your life, your freedom, and the twenty to fifty thousand dollars it will cost you to defend yourself against an automatic homicide charge, all for a total stranger? If you are, well, okay. Just be aware of what is at stake.

I would first seek cover; then, from behind it, I'd instruct BG in a loud voice to drop his weapon. If he didn't, I'd drop him. Please don't do this; it's an excellent way to get the cashier or yourself shot. If the BG has a gun out, and you're determined to intervene, don't waste time with a verbal challenge.

Look at it on the bright side. Even if you DID get canned (and who says you will?) you're looking at a lifetime supply of free pizza, delivered directly to you cell; compliments of the house. Yeah, you might be able to trade the pizza to your cellmate to maintain the sanctity of your tight little booty! ;)

- Chris

LiveWire
October 11, 2002, 01:45 PM
You might be able to trade the pizza to your cellmate to maintain the sanctity of your tight little booty!

Not if he knows what's good for him. They call me "Gorilla"! ;)

eotp
October 13, 2002, 10:06 PM
Think of the person behind the cash register as your beloved son or daughter. Now, tell me what you would do. Would you really rely on the mercy of some guy (who may be a gang member, strung out on crack or other drug, etc) who is holding a gun pointed at your child?

I practice and carry mainly in order to protect my loved ones if a need ever arises that requires a lethal response. In a scenario like the one described, the person behind the cash register becomes my loved one (at least for that instant).

Gunter
October 14, 2002, 04:53 PM
Now lets see...

Statistics say that one in four (25%) of cooperating victims are injured in the US.

By pointing the gun, the BG has actually said that he is not willing to shoot the clerk (yet). If he wanted to shoot somebody, he would have done so straight away. Maybe he just doesn't want to find out how to open the cash drawer (there have been clerks killed by nervous robbers because they forgot how to open the register - most now have a special "no sale" type key).

Move to cover, asess the situation. Has anybody else noticed? Is anybody suspiciously watching the robbery? Any other BGs (they do tend to move in packs)? Does anybody look likely to start screaming when you produce your piece? Or make them aware of the robbery, for that matter?

Attempting to shoot the BG comes only after I am behind cover and reasonably sure of the shot and what is beyond.

If there is some shooting, I would not follow a BG outside the shop. And I would be sure to make the 911 call myself and give a good description of myself to avoid getting shot by the responding officer(s).

Spectre
October 15, 2002, 07:20 PM
No self deputized hand cannon action needed.
I say leave the society protection to the police or get deputized and trained to handle close combat situations.
CCW does not give you the right/permission to do the police's job.

Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled it is not the responsibility of the police to prevent crime, just to investigate it. The POLICE are not trained to handle "close combat situations"*. By definition, "combat" is reserved for the armed forces, and thinking you have any clue about CQB/MOUT after cursory training for a PD is a good route to a purty pine box.

*With the possible exception of some SWAT/SRT-type units, and the Constitutionality and advisability of what is essentially pure combat training to these "peace officers" is another debate altogether.

Soujurn
October 16, 2002, 01:37 AM
The first order of the day is to go home safe and get your loved ones home safe.
Inserting yourself into a situation where you may not know all the facts is fool hardy to say the least.
As heartless as it may sound, if a store or restaurant clerk is not my child, spouse, sibling, parent, niece or nephew I am not going to intervene. My life is precious to me and to my family and I won't risk it for strangers.
The sad truth is that these things happen so fast, and unless you are mentally prepared at all times to aggressively counter them, you most likely will just end up with shots being thrown around.
This can lead to the deaths of the people you are trying to save.
Use your cell phone to call the police. If they screw up and someone gets killed, they have very deep pockets and a string of legal aid to deal with it. How many of you have the same resources? Yet you want to act like police.

OF
October 16, 2002, 12:25 PM
not my child, spouse, sibling, parent, niece or nephew I am not going to intervene.Fine. But don't expect anyone to intervene on their behalf in your stead, either.

I believe that what goes around comes around. I let people into traffic in front of me every time anyone asks to be let in. My wife comments on how I always seem to be let into traffic whenever I need to be. I let people in because I appreciate being let in.

I hope that if my family were in danger, someone with the power to do so would intervene on their behalf. It would be rude and cowardly of me not to be prepared to do the same for someone else's family if put in the position.

- Gabe

Spectre
October 16, 2002, 06:23 PM
Hooah! I hear ya, Gabe.

eotp
October 16, 2002, 10:56 PM
I hope that if my family were in danger, someone with the power to do so would intervene on their behalf. It would be rude and cowardly of me not to be prepared to do the same for someone else's family if put in the position.

Very well said.

Sounds like a practical application of the Golden Rule to me.

Gabe, your neighbors are blessed.

Yelf
October 18, 2002, 10:44 AM
And if the person doing the intervening accidently shoots and kills your loved one?

Spectre
October 18, 2002, 02:22 PM
Y' know, there's a "what if" for everything. Your responses seem to show a distinct bias against legal self-defence, as well as marked elitist tendencies. Are you uncomfortable around defensive tools? If so, do you know why? As with any unreasonable feeling, understanding there is a problem is the first step to resolving it.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
October 18, 2002, 05:43 PM
Do a search on Google or your favorite search engine of choice for "Kentucky Fried Chicken, Kilgore,TX., and robbery kidnapping homicide" around September of 1983.

I was living in the area when 5 people were abducted from the restaurant during a robbery gone bad; they were driven across a county line and executed with a bullet to the back of the head and another to the back by persons believed to be 3 in number. Total take may have been $400, US$. Still 'unsolved', but this month there are possibly persons linked, perhaps reliably to the crime.

I was driving past the location at the approximate time this took place. It deeply affected the community and divides it to this day.

If I were in a business...any business...knowing what I do now...knowing that I could be harrassed by the perp's 'family' for offing the little goblin before he pops the pizza boy...

I'd take the little bastard out immediately without saying a word and sleep great that night and every night after that, knowing I had done the right thing.

Regards,
Rabbit.

To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. - Confucius, Analects, c.400 b.c.

Spectre
October 18, 2002, 07:48 PM
Thanks.

FWIW, I reckon I have to look in the mirror every day, and I want to like what I see. (Hey, no wise cracks!) :)

Yelf
October 21, 2002, 10:54 AM
Spectre-
Those "what-if's" are things that every person should consider before using deadly force in any situation. Otherwise, its a sure way to find yourself in a "pine box" or a barred room.
You don't know me, don't act like you do after reading 2 messages. Personal attacks do nothing to boost your argument.

Spectre
October 21, 2002, 09:40 PM
"If you shoot it, you bought it." If there is no clear shot, no shot should be taken unless (perhaps) there is nothing to lose- i.e. it is a given that the innocent will be taken out, regardless.

There is a proud history of individual action and responsibility in America. It is deeply ingrained into our national identity. Those who do their homework know that the committed amateur is often more skilled in the US than the avg LEO. Follow your conscience, and thankfully, others will follow theirs.

Remember, if we left things to the "professionals", we would have no need to pay any attention to the politicians...:rolleyes:

Peetmoss
October 27, 2002, 06:01 PM
I have read through this whole thread and it's alot to think about. Not sure what I would do. I also think that anyone who says they know what they would do is full of it, unless they have expierenced this situation previously. I also am not sure of the legality of the whole situation either.

And what about civil suits? This secnario made me think of a story told to me during my basic safety class required for my permit. A local liqour store owner who had been robbed previously decieded to get a pistol and permitt to defend himself at his store. He was robbed at gunpoint sometime after he abtained his weapon. During the robbery he was fired at twice both shots missed. He proceeded to return fire and killed the BG. He was arrested for Manslaughter witch was dissmissed almost immiadtly. Now I bet you guys are thinking all good right well WRONG. He was then sued by the BG's family for killing there son. The BG's family won the lawsuit because the store owner failed to warn the BG he was going to shoot him. I don't know about all of you guys but I am a measly public servent that can't afford to pay some BG's family hundreds of thousands of dollars. Just something to think about.

ninenot
October 27, 2002, 07:29 PM
Ah, one could make the argument that a weapon pointed at somebody's head is an immediate threat of grave bodily harm or life endangerment. Thus, the duty is to find the 'holy ground' in the restaurant, draw, and announce to the perp that he ought to stop or be dropped.

That being said, there's also the possibility that one could herd the other patrons out of the joint, call 911, and leave the clerk to his own devices. In all likelihood, there will not be a shooting--most armed robberies are 'no shots fired' events.

ANALYSIS: Stopping the BG is the better action. When he is stopped, there is NO possibility of harm to ANYONE. Herding the 10 others out leaves the clerk defenseless, and possibly hurt or dead. However, the obligation to stop the BG carries the requirement that, to the maximum extent possible, YOU are certain that you can STOP him and NOBODY gets hurt.

They are all tough cases.

sarbuck
October 28, 2002, 01:32 PM
chances are he's out on bail.a majority of bg's are.you are in fear of the boy's life,your life ,and 10 other people's lives.shoot him dead.do not wound him.there may even be a reward on him.What if the cops had picked up the maryland terroists the first time they stopped them?maryland by the way is one of the stricter gun control states,of course so is wash dc.go figure.sarbuck:mad:

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
October 28, 2002, 05:34 PM
Oh, by the way:

I saw your post on this this thread Navy Joe. Unfortunately it, along with my previous response was deleted during the server follies.

A word for you, sir.
HUZZAH!

Regards,
Rabbit.

pdmoderator
October 28, 2002, 10:36 PM
If within 10 feet, blast BG with OC at 5 million Scoville.

- pdmoderator

BrianB
October 29, 2002, 10:47 AM
I'm not sure I read that last one correctly. OC as in pepper spray? Against an armed man?

Anyway, interesting thread. I noticed a lot of the responses assumed things that quite possibly won't be the case, time being one of them. Withdrawing and getting the customers out of the restaurant may be a good idea, but that's going to take a lot of tme, and it's going to take your attention away from the gunman. Not only that, you increase the risk of drawing the gunman's attention toward the rest of the patrons. And now you've got your attention divided.

The first thing to do is to look out the window. Is there a car and driver awaiting the subject? Just one occupant? Is the car in a position to see into the restaurant? These are good things to know. You can't be a mindreader, but you can try to pick up on the state of the gunman as much as possible. Drugged? Nervous? Agressive? Apologetic? There are all kinds of surface emotions that might be readable in a short period of time, from body language or voice.

Once you've made a (very fast, and probably not reliable) assesment, you need to decide (very quickly) whether or not to use force. If you decide not to, stay out of sight. If you decide force is necessary, better to draw while concealed around the corner, and perhaps better to engage from a lower position when you come back around the corner.

If you do engage, do you give a verbal command or do you simply shoot the guy? I'd have to say that it's probably best for everyone to give the verbal command. so long as the person's gun is pointed away from the clerk. If the clerk's still at the point of the gun, you'd better skip the verbiage, and aim for a CNS hit and hope that your accuracy holds up under the pressure and adrenaline.

Keeping in mind, you've probably got a couple of seconds at best to assess the situation and decide to act and how to act. I'd have to say the best preparation for this kind of scenario isn't so much in reviewing use of force (gun pointing at victim, use of force justified right there) as in practicing your ability to quickly take in as many details as possible. You certainly don't want to engage the guy if he's got a car full of armed partners just outside, or for that matter seated at one of the tables. On the other hand, you may be compelled to engage regardless if the subject seems intent on meyhem.)

Just my .02.

pdmoderator
October 30, 2002, 10:54 AM
See the following thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137754

If you (a) are within range; (b) can get a good shot at the BG, and; (c) have the good stuff within a year after manufacture and and fully charged: then it might work about as reliably as a firearm in this scenario. And it certainly avoids some of the dilemmas pointed out in this thread.

Plus, if you don't have a firearm, ya gotta use what ya got.

Just trying to think outside the box here.

- pdmoderator

BrianB
October 31, 2002, 04:11 AM
Sounds like good stuff. Given the unlikelihood of concealed carry in the PRK, it might be a viable alternative in a tight spot.

pbarrick
October 31, 2002, 08:36 AM
OC spray against a gun isn't a winning scenario. It doesn't control the firearm and the BG has the ability to pull a trigger while suffering the effects of OC. At contact distance, it might be viable to close with OC and engage empty-empty hand but I certainly wouldn't close if I wasn't already close to the BG.

I think, the way the scenario was initially described, you would be better off making for an exit (or making an exit--i.e., bust a window) and moving to a position of cover and then call the police/EMS. Distance=safety.

pdmoderator
October 31, 2002, 09:20 PM
Gun against gun isn't a winning scenarion either, if the BG has it aimed and his finger on the trigger. Same reasons.

- pdmoderator

Cowdogpete
November 1, 2002, 02:44 PM
I love scenarios. They are essential to the training process. Whenever I train or train someone else I develop a scenario for the stage I'm shooting.

In addition when I'm driving with nothing else to do I'll run through scenarios mentally. I also dry fire and practice my draw, stance and presentation from time to time with out a weapon at all. Think of it as Kata.

With that said don't over analyze your scenarios. You can't predict every thing that will happen. Encounters are not static. They are constantly changing and moving.

In the above scenario:

Do the other patrons know what’s going on or are you the only one that’s seen the robber?
Has anyone else noticed he has a gun?
If you take a shot, what happens to the hysterical person that just noticed what’s happening and runs across your line of site just as you pull the trigger?
If you take the shot how do you know he’s going to drop? A single shot to instantly kill is difficult. Will his reflexes discharge his weapon that’s pointed at the clerk? Will he turn and fire multiple rounds around the room in a dieing fit rage.
Have you ever shot anyone before? (don’t actually answer this …I’ve been chastised enough). Truth: You don’t know how you will react in this situation until you are there. Training can help, but you still are unproven until actually there.
Is the guy just after the money or is he really intending to kill some one? If he can take the cash and go; will he?
Is there available cover? Is there an alternate way out? Does he have an accomplice? Is the second man inside or out? Does he have a gun too?

If I find myself in the above engagement what do I do? I have absolutely no idea.

I train to do this: Assess the situation. Can I escape? Can I get to cover? Can I deescalate the situation?
Then I have to answer these questions:
Can I draw my weapon before he can train his on me? What are his intentions?
Am I justified in killing him? Am I emotionally capable of killing him? Am I financially capable of defending myself in court? What are the ramifications of killing him? Will the cops shoot me thinking I’m the bad guy? Will another CCW holder shoot me thinking I just shot a customer paying for his pizza? Etc. etc. etc.

Keep in mind that if you shoot someone and are completely no-billed for the shooting, even if they throw you a parade, these things are going to happen. You will be arrested. The cops probably will point their guns at you and cuss at you. The cops may rough you up. They will take your gun. You will be handcuffed and stuffed into a smelly scout car. You will be removed from your family and taken to jail. You will go to court. You will have to pay for your defense. How will your family, the community, your co-workers, your boss view all this? Even if you are justified you can count on being sued by the deceased’s family. Here comes civil court. More costs. More time away from work and family.

I’ve could go on but you’re starting to get the idea by now. Talking these scenarios out in these forums may or may not be good. I’m still sitting the fence. Too much second-guessing and what ifs. But it serves to explore all the possibilities of what can go wrong or what else the shooter must be aware of.

When you train you take the shot. When you practice mentally you take the shot. When you are thrust into a lethal force situation you must assess all the factors, answer all the questions I posted, all the what ifs and questions everyone else posted, and do it all as fast as you can blink an eye. Then you will still not know how you will react or if you will react.

CULLENIII
November 14, 2002, 04:39 PM
Using judgement --plan a pull gun and shoot attacker --depends on body language, gun readiness ie cocked, temper of attacker, plan b---duck behind pull gun retreat while protecting other people--while calling 911 on cell

Talon66
November 14, 2002, 07:04 PM
Since he hasn't seen me, I'd make my way out back with the rest of the patrons, call 911 and take up a defensive position.

OF
November 15, 2002, 10:53 PM
I also think that anyone who says they know what they would do is full of it, unless they have expierenced this situation previously.A very good point. Although that is no reason not to discuss it. And I believe the thought process that you must engage in during the discussion just might be of value if you are ever in that situation.

It would be more accurate to say that I am stating what I sincerely hope I would do. Summoning the will is another story, certainly. There are many here who have had the will, and I'm sure many who found they did not. There are some here who will eventually find out. But the greatest number will never have to, and talking about it is as close as they will get. In which case, all the talk may have been a waste of time. The thing is, you never know which group you're in beforehand.

Someone once said that nature is the hardest teacher, as she gives the exam first and the lesson only afterward.

- Gabe

univtxattorney
April 5, 2005, 03:18 AM
That said, it's hammer back and take aim if a clean shot is available. If it looks like the robber does not intend to kill (but merely using his weapon to scare the clerk and rob), I let'em go. If it appears that the clerk is going to be killed or shot, I would likely take him out.


If the BG has a gun, I am going to assume it's not for window-dressing. If you don't want to get shot, you shouldn't go around waiving a gun in an innocent person's face. I think you have to assume he is going to use it and use yours to protect innocent life.

Twycross
April 7, 2005, 01:44 AM
Seriously, are you truly willing to risk your life, your freedom, and the twenty to fifty thousand dollars it will cost you to defend yourself against an automatic homicide charge, all for a total stranger?
In a heartbeat. As a human male, I believe that that is one of my functions here on earth.

I would view a verbal challenge as almost mandatory. To omit this, unless you believe betraying your presense would result in the death of the victim, looks really bad to a jury.

Fleeing the scene is not an option. You have the ability to stop the crime, and to not do so is to aid the BG.

armedandsafe
April 7, 2005, 10:51 AM
I would (and have) intervene. The act of pointing a gun at someone during the commission of a felony is attempted murder. Scope out the scene with one quick look while drawing, shout to distract the perp and shoot.

Pops

snacktrack
April 7, 2005, 12:58 PM
I really enjoyed reading the responses on this thread. However, theoretical scenarios are really just acacemic. I would have to say I would rely on my instincts as it unfolded. If you think it out in your mind before hand, guaranteed it wont happen that way if it ever was to happen. I trust my instincts in a situation like this. There are determining factors that are hard to describe and that can only be "felt" I believe.

I do agree with a bunch of points on here, such as its not about the money in this situation, its about saving a life. There is no way to judge whats going through someones head. If the gun is already pointed at the clerk, it takes a fraction of a second to go from alive to dead clerk for whatever reason, he is taking too long to get the money or he is paranoid of being identified.Someone who is pointing a gun at someone innocent for 100-200 dollars? They dont have any respect for life.

So honestly, I dont know what I would do. I would take the shot for sure if I knew my life wouldnt be ruined by having to defend my actions, and that I could get a clean shot without being noticed.

Also the person who asked whether your actions would be different if the gun was pointed at a pregnant woman makes an interesting point. I would have to say if a gun was pointed at any member of my family or friend the BG has already made the choice for me. This a tough situation to be in. A robbery's motive by nature is about money and most just want the money. BG's realize nobody is going to hand you money if you dont have a gun pointed at them. But whether or not that BG is the one who wants the money AND doesnt care if that poor clerk's head is blown off, its a gamble. Im going to leave it up to my Spidey sense to make that decision if I ever am in this scenario.

Topthis
April 7, 2005, 01:19 PM
I am in agreement with "scenarios", too much room for subjectives and no real details. I am wondering why the hell a robber would take down a pizza joint filled with patrons? He is gonna get $200 at the most and have to worry about 11 other people identifying him? A scenario where they are closing up shop and you are the only person there, finishing up a late snack...now that is more realistic.
In this case...I would use "The Force" and make his weapon fly out of his hand, into mine! Then I would fry him with the laser beams that shoot out of my eyes, followed by my Freezey Breath so that he would be detained until the police arrive!!
I mean...since we are talking hypotheticals...right?? ;)

Dwight55
April 7, 2005, 09:30 PM
I am no expert by any means in "reading" other people, . . . but if there are several patrons, . . . armed pistol robbery in progress, . . . I have my 1911 and am within 35 feet, . . . and have a clear shot:

I am going to quietly and unobtrusively as possible, . . . un-holster and get behind some kind of cover. Line up on him with best shot possible, . . . probably COM if 25 to 35 ft, . . . head/neck at less than 25.

I would apply all my "reading" skills I could muster to determine in my mind that this guy is or is not going to shoot. If he convinces me that he is after the cash, . . . chances are he will get out, . . . I'll call 911 later, . . . no shots fired.

I would look particularly at how he is holding the weapon, what kind of weapon is it (single action revolver not cocked???? he ain't shooting nobody), . . . is his finger on the trigger, . . . is he shakey/nervous, . . . is he cool, . . . is he looking around at an accomplice, . . . check him out. I trusted my instincts and reading ability for 60 years and so far it has done me well.

The instant he gives me cause to believe he is intent on shooting, . . . he is going down, . . . then, there, 1911 style. In order to do that, . . . remember you gotta get unholstered, . . . get that sight picture, . . . threat scan right & left, . . . get some cover, . . . you have been placed by some sort of destiny to be there, that day, at that place, at that time, . . . make the best decision you can. You are responsible for it.

May God bless,
Dwight

Radiki
April 7, 2005, 11:08 PM
Just my quick 2cents here:

"All that is need for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing"

I agree that one should sum up the situation as best they can before making the shot. Accomplices? Exits? Collateral Damage? But at best in a situation like this, you will only have a couple of seconds. My opinon: Take cover while drawing, clear line of sight-aim, verbal command and if there isn't a downward movement of the gun immediately fire. And rotational movement towards you, fire. Any more threatning move towards pizzaboy, fire. Down is about the only option he is walking out of there -- and into jail.

This reminds me though of a situation though. About two years ago, two men tried robbing a resturant near my house. They couldn't have been from around here or they would know they picked the wrong resturant. This particular place is where most of the local cops hang out after their shift. They were walking towards the counter while drawing their weapons. They got about two feet before there must have been a dozen of so weapons pointed at them. So in this situation, what are the other 10 patrons doing? Because if you shoot and they didn't know what what happening, they might assume you are the BG and one of them might take you down. As for a BG outside. If they see their partner get dropped they are more than likely going to flee not go inside. No loyalty among thieves. But if there is another inside somewhere he would probably try to fight his way out.

Travis Bickle
April 7, 2005, 11:41 PM
Well, here in Colorado, the law says:

"Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force in inadequate and...

(a bunch of 'or' situations)

or:

c) The other person is committing... robbery as defined in section 184-301 or 184-302 (which includes armed robbery) (CRS 18-1-704)


Even so, my training says to draw only to prevent loss of live or prevent serious injury. Even though it would seem to be legal in Colorado to shoot an armed robber, I would not draw unless the guy did more than pull the gun, because I would avoid escalating the situation. Chances are the guy is not going to shoot, and by me drawing, I'm escalating the situation. But if it is clear that the situation has already escalated, and he's already shot or is probably going to shoot, I might draw.

caegal
April 8, 2005, 05:34 AM
Here is the second half of the scenerio:

you do draw and he just happens to catch a reflection in a toaster of you. He turns and you are dead.

Or...

You draw just as he is turning his head, he steps to the side and grabs the pizza boy. Now you have escalated the situation to a hostage situation, and may be legally responsible for any deaths that occur.

Or...

You shoot the guy in the head, the police come and pick up the gun. It turns out to be fake. The guys brothers best friend knows Jesse Jackson, or his mom is head of 44 Moms Against Guns (or 44 MAG for short), or the Brady foundation finds out about it. Even if you are not found guilty, the lawyer fees for both the criminal and civil cases against you will be measured in the 100's of thousands.

Or...

You pull the trigger, the BG's gun discharges as his muscles spasm one last time. Pizza boy gets killed. The parents and DA agree that if you didnt think you were John Wayne, the BG would never of pulled the trigger. You are now responsible for the death of the Pizza boy.

Or...

You draw your gun and point it, a person behind you misunderstands the situation and tackles you as you are pulling the trigger. In all cases like this, the bullet immediately goes into the pregnant woman. (murphys law). The DA believes that the situation would of worked itself out if you didnt pull the gun and finds that you were neglegent for trying to play Dirty Harry, without the proper training.

Or...

Everything goes perfectly! Bang, bad guy dies. Pizza boy lives. Customers herald you as a hero. Free pizza! The DA investigates and finds out that a vast majority of armed robberies (I believe it is in the high 90%) are performed without anybody being shot. The legal questions are now,
"do you believe your life was in danger?" (NO)
"Was the pizza boys life in danger?"(yes)
"Did your actions escalate the situation??" (yes, someone is now dead)
The DA flips a coin and prosecutes.

Or...

The police and DA are a bit freaked out about the precidence that this shooting will set. Now they have to worry about vigilantes running around the city shooting bad guys. This is very bad for them politically.

Edison Carter
April 8, 2005, 07:49 AM
Old thread, but still a good scenario.

It seems to me that there is plenty of legal and moral justificaton
to shoot the bad guy in the back of the head.... A clear opportunity to
fire: the scenario was....

Immediate defense of life. It's not about money, at all....

But wait, this pizza place has a liquor license, and carrying a gun there
is a fourth degree felony.

So sorry, I don't have my gun, HERE.

I'm out the back exit, so sorry.

I'll call 911 for you though. Good luck with all that.

EC

big daddy 9mm
May 25, 2005, 09:46 AM
If I knew that I would not go to jail and I had a bunch of witnesses, I would blow his fuccin head off. other wise call the cops ftom a safe distance. but in the 'more perfect world' I like the statement about people behind him being armed and ready. wazzzup bich! I love guns.... I love people who love guns...... here in ohio there are 2 ci ci's pizza's that have the very dangerous sign 'no guns' and I think to my self 'I almost hope this place gets robbed to make a point about that stupidity. all these people defenseless. not me! guns are not dangerous, stupid people are I love you guys enjoy life :rolleyes: :D

shield20
May 25, 2005, 10:08 AM
BG threatening to use deadly force, committing a robbery, is a shootable situation. (this in NY anyway)...

S 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use
physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably
believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from
what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful
physical force by such other person
...
2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) He reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to
use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he knows that he can with complete safety
as to himself and others avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating;

except that he is under no duty to retreat if he is:

(i) in his dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
officer or a peace officer at the latter`s direction, acting pursuant to
section 35.30; or
(b) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or
attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
sexual act or robbery; or


Legally the defense/justification is there. Sooo - would I intervene at this point? Really tough call - something I will have to think about now, so I would know what I would do then. Hmmm...

Relayer
May 25, 2005, 11:58 AM
With all due repsect, I think some of you would be pushing women and children out of the way in order to get a seat in a lifeboat on the Titanic.

It takes about .5 second for the BG to put a bullet in the innocent skull of the cashier. For all your reading of the BG, up until then you can't know if he's gonna off him or not. You'll "know" when the brains splatter against the wall. If you're fortunate, maybe none will get on you.

If I'm the cashier, I praying that one of you good souls will take this guy down (or do your damndest just BEFORE he decides to put a slug in me. If it's your daughter that's the cashier, I bet your hoping for the same. Or maybe you'd rather me wait to see if the nice BG is gonna pull the trigger on your daughter, first, and then I'll take him out.

Of course, few of us can absolutely say what your actually going to do in this situation, but this thread is logically more what you think you'd do if confronted with it. If I am, I pray that I have the moral courage to do the right thing. I'm praying you do, too.

RsqVet
May 25, 2005, 12:05 PM
Guys ---

Clearly a lot is going ot be riding on the surroundings and the read you have of the BG even if it's happening very quickly --- guy walks up quietly with a gun demands money --- much diffirent than guy walks in screaming "gangsta style"

In any armed robbery, the threat on life is implicit and I don't think anyone would have a criminal legal problem unless they did something stupid.

All of the points about alternative options, leaving through the back door, getting all the other patrons out and so forth are excellent and depending upon the exact situation one ot the things I might do. That being said if you have an absolutly clean no collateral damage shot, and confidance in your shot, I say take it, by doing so and ending it you are absolutly preventing escalation. Again all of the dynamics of a real life situation can't make it into a scenario discussion but if there is a chance of having to shoot I would much rather shoot on my terms, preferably with cover and suprise on my side than wait and possibly end up in a gun fight.

racinstylez
May 25, 2005, 12:54 PM
I am here in the state of texas. so pretty much everyone 21 and older has a CHL here, and you can count on that. I know of several differant stories where BGs were shot and killed while leaving the robbery. The problem is that the BGs know of this high risk that they would get shot in the end would end the life of anyone they were robbing. If it were me, and I could get a clear shot I would take it. Better his life ending than the cashier.

BUT :

Maybe the cashier and robber are in it together.

Maybe there is other suspects around.

Maybe the gun is fake.

Maybe the gun isnt loaded.



TOO many things that coudl happen, and me not being a police officer would not want to end up going to jail for trying to protect other people. That being said. I would probably just hid or escape and call the proper authorties.

axslingerW
May 25, 2005, 01:08 PM
I bought my first handgun and applied for a ccw permit the day after my wife and I watched a friend get robbed at gunpoint. I called 911 from my cellphone and observed where the BG went. If a gun had been available that night I would not have hesitated to kill. This was at a 7/11 I stop at every night, and the night clerk is a friend of mine. I thought I was going to watch him die. I will NEVER be in that position again.

YANKEESPY
May 25, 2005, 02:28 PM
We call our license to carry a concealed weapon a CWP in Idaho.

Did you ever think that each of the adults in that pizza might also have theri own weapon. After all they already made up their minds about self protection. If they are from out of town from say Massaachusetts they may be someone who voted the extreme antigun law there.. I also have a Massachusetts Fire Arms Card since the first month they were issued. I was born there.

Some say blast them in the head... You may miss!!! (A body shot provides the best target.) If you miss you may find the BG is a better shot.. ( No matter; you are a loner with no family right?) You are sure that the gun toting BG does not see you.. Then you move for your gun... He sees you now drawing your weapon... Now his life is at stake.. He didn't intend to kill anyone but just scare them. He is now scared of you. You are going to blast him without so much as a word like "FREEZE" ......

Recently in Idaho and elsewhere the Police have fired several times at close range at armed assailent and hit them in the arm, leg, and stomach after three or more quick shots. Now they are trained to take out a BG with a gun. The go to pratice ranges all the time... THEY MISS !!! My self I am an expert with a few weapons and a combat vet. I have missed the mark and the BG coming over the barbed wire too.... Hae you seen the recent Police chase shootings lately on he news???? These experts fire dozens and even hundreds of rounds a the BG.... They don't kill him sometimes or he lingers on. You say you can drop him in a single shot.. I don't carry a .357. I learned the hard way that it often takes two rounds of a .380 to kill a sick or injured cat.

I don't think it is self defense to shot any one in the back of the head. You do have the requirement of the law that states imminant danger for self defense. He does not know you are there.. You are not in danger. There is no reason you can not get out safely right? I think you run into a legal problem ..... I don't think they'll give you a 'pass'..

I am a part time Private Investigator ( work for lawyers only ) .. I served two terms in an elected County Seat. I was once voted into a very high office in the Repulican Party. The Sheriff told me that if I shot someone in my own home that I would be arrested and jailed before I got to speak with an attorney about any defensive rights. And warned not to shoot anyone excaping out side my house

Say you do bring him down and get a 'pass' .. Now everyone in the pizza parlor can sue you as well as the BG family. Maybe the Pizza House Corp. will sue you too. You violated their polices. First is give the BG the money. Secondly they may have a 'no gun' rule in thier business....

Advise == watch out for potential BG before you go to a place that might get held up. Sit near an exit.... Don't carry a gun unless you need it. Don't shoot at skunks in allys ( they stink and the round will not normally stop in their body).


The 2nd Amendment does not say you can shoot local jerks stealing pizza. It does say that you can own a gun and carry it. That being watered down with the laws of certain States.


Now if the question were about an obvious Terrorist type person with a weapon or explosive I think the shot to kill quick would be accepted as a self defense action in most places..

shield20
May 25, 2005, 02:53 PM
You can't be worrying about an "empty gun" or a "fake gun" - you are LEGALLY justified - you had VERY GOOD reason to believe 1) imminent use of deadly force was possible, and that 2) a robbery was being committed. I would worry about other suspects though.

"Don't carry a gun unless you need it"??? That type of...intuition would get us all alot farther in life - if it were only possible.

Relayer
May 25, 2005, 03:47 PM
YANKEESPY.... where to begin...

Are you really saying that if someone standing near you has a gun pointed at your head, that person shouldn't be shot because, hey, they MIGHT NOT kill you?

You want to wait to see if he kills you first?

Maybe it's not "self defense to shoot any one in the back of the head". However, (sadly, depending maybe on your location) it may certainly be justifiable homicide, if that "any one" has a gun drawn down on a innocent (cashier,in this case).

Finally, "Don't carry a gun unless you need it" ?? Wow, I really don't get that, at all.

cqbshooter
May 25, 2005, 03:50 PM
I personally have no problem stepping up to the plate. A fellow human is being threatened by an animal. Sorry but I choose the human over the animal.BG GETS DROPPED.

Don

RsqVet
May 25, 2005, 05:41 PM
Thread is not just about self defense / preservation --- is also about the potental defense of others, if only worried about self preservation retreat and exit is probibly the safest bet (exit or not, windows work as well),

If worried about the defense of others then things get a little muddy, when a firearm is involved and a clean shot is there I say take it, back of the head or not, if deadly force is allowed to stop the comission of a crime you feel needs stoping then do it, don't lose a tactical advantage by announcing yourself if you don't have to, if it's not a firearm things change a little as while it may still be a deadly wepon you may be more inclined to announce and make demands or allow the bad guy to retreat, again being a judgement call on your part ---- calm guy maybe, obvious crank head probibly not, atliest for me. interms of any potental shooting situation it's much better to have things on your terms and to your advantage than to theirs (why do you think police do felony stops the way that they do? ) What you don't want to do is be in that place when you here shots from up front followed by foot steps your way

BioDemon
May 28, 2005, 06:18 AM
Since in that case normaly a BG wants to get money and get out not realy trying to murder some one, I would become a witness to the crime. If he started shooting at people that would change. I wouldn't want a cash crime to turn deadly. At the same time if a guy was shooting in the air, He is probably not going to kill eather. By standers can always get hit by stray bullets too if you were thinking of trying to be a hero. A true hero sees that NO ONE gets hert!

MountainJoe
May 28, 2005, 01:02 PM
First, a quick look beyond/around the area to check for a possible accomplice and to see whether any bystanders are present. If there are multiple BGs or innocent folks close to the line of fire, I quickly note as much as I can about the BG(s) descriptions, back off and use my cell phone to call 911 for professional backup.

If there appears to be only the single robber, and the pizza guy and any other innocent people are out of my line of fire, I draw my weapon and level it at the BG's COM. Assuming I have managed to draw down on him without him seeing me yet, I yell FREEZE! DROP THE GUN! and give him one chance to choose his own survival. If at any point while doing the above he turns toward me or makes any move to harm the pizza guy, or if he doesn't comply instantly when I order him to drop his weapon, he gets new holes in his body as fast as I can send rounds downrange.

The BG may not have been a direct threat to me in the first place, but he is committing armed robbery ... a felony where I live ... he is threatening the life of another innocent human being (the pizza guy) and, indirectly, me and everyone else in the place. He is scum and probably doesn't even deserve the warning I yell at him (that is just me being too decent of a human being, I guess). He deserves to go to prison for a long time, and if he persists in his attack after my warning, he deserves to eat lead. And if my hands aren't shaking so much as to make me miss ... well ... down he goes, and I won't lose any sleep over it.

Wraith
May 28, 2005, 07:21 PM
Someone is gonna get brain splatter on their clothes.

jtkwon
May 28, 2005, 07:26 PM
The typical answer: "Shoot him, toss a twenty on the counter and say, Sorry about the mess."

In real life - I don't think we know until it happens.

hummelsander
May 28, 2005, 10:26 PM
I say, draw on the BG, tell him to drop the gun and get on the floor, hold him till the police arrive. Even if he pulls the trigger he still has to spin to hit you. You drop him, head shot, lot's of time there to react. You are the only one that stands between him and innocent people. You have chosen to carry so take the responsiblity that comes with it. Even if you go to jail for it, you save the lives of all those in the place.

progunner1957
May 28, 2005, 11:26 PM
To quote Jeff Cooper:
"people today have gotten the idea in their heads that armed robbery is somehow okay as long as no one gets hurt. The ONLY proper resolution to an armed robbery is a dead robber on the floor, period."

If the scumsucker is brandishing a gun or pointing it at the pizza guy, you must operate under the belief that he intends to kill the pizza guy. The situation can go from "pointing" to "dead pizza guy" in a fraction of a second. What is to prevent the scumbag from going on a killing rampage once he has the cash? NOTHING - except for you and your handgun.

Ask yourself this question: If the scumbag kills the pizza guy - and maybe others - and you stood by and watched with a weapon and a clear shot, HOW WILL YOU FEEL AFTERWORDS knowing you could have saved someone's life AND DID NOTHING?? How will you live with that knowledge the rest of your life? That pizza guy is someone's son, someone's brother, someone's husband or maybe someone's dad. THINK ABOUT IT.

Part of our moral responsibility as CCW holders is to ACT when we can to save innocent life, regardless of whose life it is. If you refuse to act in this situation, where do you draw the line? Will you stand by as a woman is raped? While a man is beaten and mained by a trio of muggers?
While a child is dragged screaming into the car of a kidnapper?

Make the world a better place - draw, aim, squeeze, BOOM!! Cor-Bon HP to the base of the skull. Dead scumbag, live pizza guy, and a message sent to the scumbags of the world that we won't stand by and do nothing while they brutalize the defenseless.

Para Bellum
May 29, 2005, 03:46 AM
I think that fully depends on the legal situation in your state and on details not posted. In my jurisdiction it would be justified to shoot the BG's brain stem from behind since he is threatening the life of the poor clerk. And this would probably be the only way to safely shoot (from the back),

BUT:
- can you do that in your state,
and BIGGER BUT:
- could it be done safely without hittng somebody else (a skull is easily penetrated by a 9x19mm, .40 or .357 (Sig/Mag.)

SO:
- you better draw silently, aim at BG and simultaneously walk out of there to call 911.
- in any case it would be wise to get your gun in your hands to reduce reaction time. You never know what such a BG is capable of or stupid enough to do...
- talk to the sohp owner and advise him to get two well-trained watchdogs (Dobermann, German Shepard, Rottweiler). There sheer presence might deterr BGs. And when the sauce hits the fan, they might do the job, too.

I think progunner made a good pint above, provided that your local courts allow you to act thet way.

For those who learn from the movies: The scenario reminds me of Travis Bilcke's (Robert de Noro) first action in Taxi Driver.

Stay safe.

wayneinFL
May 29, 2005, 10:57 AM
Wow. This is an emotionally charged issue. Where to start? I agree Denny Hansen was right in saying there are too many variables to say yes or no.

But these AREN'T factors, if you ask me:

Maybe the cashier and robber are in it together.

So?

Maybe there is other suspects around.

Shoot them too.

Maybe the gun is fake.

So?

Maybe the gun isnt loaded.

So?

I don't have any way of telling if the gun is fake or unloaded. I'm not a psychiatrist and the guy's not giving me six months of psychoanalysis to figure out whether he really means it or not.

Am I going to get sued? Probably. Am I putting money over life if I decide I won't shoot no matter what? I think so. Does that make me any better than the bad guy? Maybe not.

These are the variables, if you ask me:

Can I get a shot off without getting myself shot?

Can I shoot him without shooting someone else? Consider overpenetration and misses.

Can I shoot him without him shooting the cashier by accident?

IF I have a clear shot, IF the bad guy doesn't see me, IF he moves the gun away from the clerk for a half a second, I would shoot. If not, I would have no choice but to watch the clerk die, if the bad guy wanted to kill him.

xnavy
May 30, 2005, 08:16 AM
Very good thread, but after reading most of what has been written I have just one question that I haven't seen asked or maybe I missed it. Why knowing that this place has been robbed 3 times in the past would you want to frequent the establishment. I believe the whole purpose of CC is to protect yourself from situations that could happen due to no fault of your own. Avoiding places that have become problem area's seems the best course of action. If in the scenario you take out the 3 previous robberies or the knowledge of the robberies then its a different scenario. Just because I have a CCL doesn't mean I should forget to use my brain or judgement. Having a CCL sometimes causes people to go to places they normally wouldn't go to due to over confidence. The question here really should be would you have entered that same restraunt knowing it had been robbed 3 times before unarmed? If you wouldn't do it unarmed then you shouldn't do it armed. Avoid the situation at all costs if possible. I know that some of you will say well I have a right to eat where I want, and that is your right. I wouldn't drive my car into a known area of carjackings just because I can carry my weapon and maybe stop it from happening if they choose me. I would avoid the known area. Part of having a CCL is using good judgement. It is for the unexpected. I just think a good rule of thumb is, if you wouldn't do it unarmed don't do it armed! :)

PythonGuy
May 30, 2005, 10:12 AM
xnavy,

What are you doing on here? did you get lost or something? you make far too much sense! A normal, non-paranoid gun owner, rational as all get out! Clone yourself, the sport needs more of you. :D

wayneinFL
May 30, 2005, 10:19 AM
This seems a very realistic and possible scenario to me. I frequent the pizza inn just down the road from work. It's been hit probably 3 times in the past two years.

I think the original poster is just trying to say it could happen, even though it's unlikely. It doesn't sound like he's scared to go in the door unarmed.

3 times in 2 years. You still have like a one in a million chance of walking in there during the course of a robbery. Hang on, let me get out the calculator.... If the place is open noon to midnight, which is about normal around here, if a robbery lasts 5 minutes, you have a 1 in 908,544 chance of walking in in the middle of a robbery. Okay, not quite one in a million, but close enough.

You're going to boycott the place? I couldn't do that to the guys across the road from me. Not only could I not do that to them, it just sounds a little paranoid.

I wouldn't be afraid to go in there unarmed, but since I go armed everywhere else I would go in there armed, too.

Besides, I'm sure there are cities in this country where you couldn't find a pizza place (or grocery store for that matter) that hasn't been robbed before. Unless, you can farm in your apartment, you'd have to move or starve.

Not that moving isn't a real possibility. But some people can't afford it. The roach coach guy was robbed at gunpoint in our parking lot at work. Last year, a couple of our guys were robbed at gunpoint at a jobsite. There have been guys in car accidents, too. So, I still come to work, even though there is a small chance I could be hurt. I'm not going to quit my job. I can't find a better job here in our town. Why should I let scumbags like that scare me off, and let my family suffer for it? I have four kids and my wife all depending on one income to survive, and I'm not going to let the bad guys win.

xnavy
May 30, 2005, 11:08 AM
You have taken what I said out of content. There is a differance between being "scared" and making a well informed rational judgement on a place to frequent. Work is a necessity, you really don't have much choice. Eating pizza is a luxury that you really don't have to have. Once again this is not about male ego, its about making a rational decision to avoid confrontation, not seek it out. IMHO the best scenario is to avoid a place that you have KNOWLEDGE of having been robbed 3 times with a very good possibility of a 4th happening. Just remember its your life, you are legally responsible for every bullet that comes out of that gun from a criminal and civil standpoint. I think that being "scared" as you put it, and using good judgement are two entirely different things. If I was a black belt in karate does that mean I should walk down the street in a gang filled neighborhood just to show I am not scared? Having been granted a CCL you have a great deal of responsibilty to use good judgement. In his scenario the place would be getting robbed for the 4th time. If he had used good judgement and avoided the place since it had been robbed 3 previous times, he wouldn't be in the situation in the scenario. You quote the odds of it happening, but the way I read the post he is already figuring the chance for a 4th robbery is pretty good hence the scenario he proposed. Solution avoid the restraunt and learn to eat frozen pizza if its the only pizza place or drive farther away.

Bert223
May 30, 2005, 11:20 AM
Well i couldnt have my cc on me at my pizza hut because they serve alcoholic beverages. :)

hummelsander
May 30, 2005, 03:23 PM
Just leave your gun at home, you'll feel better? Is that what we are talking about? Question. Why should we avoid certain places and let the bad guys have them? If I go to a store frequently, should I stop going once it is robbed more than once? Why should I have to drive a mile out of the way when it is a perfectly good store to go to, except for an occasional robbery? Why should I move to the suburbs just because a gang shot the neighbors next door? Why should I have to move far into the country because of the high crime in the city? Why? What is CC for if it is not also a deterent for crime?

xnavy
May 30, 2005, 06:57 PM
Sorry where in my posts did I say anything about that leaving your gun at home.

You are not a LEO. I mean really do I have to explain to you what good judgement is. Its not your job to go around and make places safe just because you have a CCW. Nor is it good judgement to go hang out in bad area's just because you have a CCW to stroke your male ego.


It seems that you want to make this an argument of extremes. Your home and place of work are necessities. Going to a store that gets robbed is a luxory, you have a choice. If I lived in a high crime area, I can say beyound a shadow of a doubt that I would move when circumstances warranted the move to help protect my family. You seem to miss the point of this thread. The original poster knows the place has been robbed and is anticipating a 4th robbery to happen, why put your self in a situation when it can be avoided? Again read the post there is no gaureentee that you will survive the scenario. Maybe another CCW holder thinks you are the bad guy and gets a drop on you. Avoiding getting into a bad situation is really the only safe recourse. CCL are meant for protecting life when no other option is available. Taking a life is to be the last option. I am not saying you have to avoid these places, that is a decision only you can make. What I am saying is this, you have to live with your actions right or wrong. This may involve criminal charges and it may include a civil suit.

To quote a movie line " With great power comes great responsibility". We must do what we must do. Things happen in this world that sometimes we have no control over. Enough bad things can happen to us, we don't need to help increase the odds by being in an area where known problems happen. Again I would have to ask would you drive your car home taking a shortcut to save 15 minutes drive time through a known carjacking area just because you have a CCW because the bad guys shouldn't be allowed to intimidate you? Would you go hang out at a local bar that has a reputation for selling drugs? Would you go hang out a bar that had frequent fights and stabbings? Of course the last two questions have to be answered without your ability to CCW because they derive more than 51% of sales from alcohol ( thats texas law anyway).

A CCL is not a liscense to go where ever you want just because it gives you a false sense of security.

I knew when I answered the post that thier would be many who would disagree and thats ok and I respect your opinions. I really don't know how to explain this any better. Having a CCL is not supposed to replace having good judgement and rationale, it should go hand in hand with it.

hummelsander
May 30, 2005, 09:54 PM
I see all you points as valid. Crime just does not happen in the bad areas any more. It happens all around us. My kid just had his Wal-mart special bicylce stolen. We live in a "good" neighborhood. The local gas station was just robbed here a few weeks ago. The very day I was in to get finger-printed for my CCP, a local contractor's truck was stolen in broad daylight right behing the stinking police station...the very hour when the Captain was finger printing me. I live in a "good" area.

So, while I understand the circumstances of the fist post, I also understand that if we a citizens do not stand our ground and say no, these guys will continue to do what they want. Do you know what the coolest crime is now???? It is home invasion robbery...robbing anything as well as the virginity of our daughters....just for a thrill. The next hottest thing in our area next to that is robbing banks.

I understand what you say and agree with you up to a point. LEOs are our friends but they can't be everywhere. I'm not a hyper wacked person. I just don't want these BG doing whatever they went when they want and where ever they want.

Not trying to argue...but just stating it the way I see it.

You, know, if we stop going to Pizza places because they get robbed and because they are a luxury, the bad guys will come find us because that is where the money is. I say we go where we want to freely and if we just so happen to bump into a bad guy with a gun then we deal with that when it comes up.

xnavy
May 30, 2005, 10:13 PM
Hummersander,

I agree with you totally, we can't let the BG's rule the world. Home invasion is a different scenario all together, you must defend your home and family. I know crime doesn't just happen in the bad area's anymore and thats why CCW is important. All I was just trying to point out is that if you are anticipating a 4th robbery happening at this particular pizza hut, aren't you just better off having dinner somewhere else? Is that pizza really worth risking your life over? Is someone elses few dollars worth risking your life over? Thats really all I am saying. I just think that if you are anticipating a 4th robbery my suggestion would be to avoid the place. Its unfortunate that some individuals seem to let carrying a concealed weapon instill a false confidence that could get them and others killed. Civil suits are no joking matter.

IMHO if the original poster thinks a 4th attempt is going to be made to rob the pizza hut, why would you want to eat there? IMHO you are seeking out trouble instead of trying to avoid it. Again I think CCW can lead one into a false sense of security and a lack of good sound judgement, but that is just my opinion.

wayneinFL
May 30, 2005, 10:41 PM
xnavy, I didn't mean to take what you said out of context.

Eating pizza is a luxury that you really don't have to have.

I suppose not. But ask the two brothers who run the pizza place across the road from me- they might think it was more of a neccessity, it being their livelihood and all. They haven't been robbed, but if they had the misfortune of being robbed I wouldn't take any of my business from them. Of course, if they got robbed every Tuesday, maybe I'd get delivery or make Tuesday taco night. :)

BTW, I respect your opinion and the other dissenting opinions here. I think we're talking about a question of degree, more than anything. In my case- I can't speak for others- carrying a sidearm is not a "macho" thing. I don't go looking for trouble.

Let me put it this way. New scenario. I took a course on CPR years ago. Probably about time to take a refresher course, but I could handle it. I'll probably never have to use it. I don't walk around the grocery store hoping some old guy will collapse in front of me in line. That's my worst nightmare.

I'm not a LEO. Duh. I couldn't afford the pay cut. I'm not a paramedic, either. Someone drops in front of me in line at Winn-Dixie, you could say it's none of my business. True. I have no legal duty to help anybody. True. I could get sued if I help. True. I could be held accountable for every broken rib. True. I could step right over the dying SOB, and take my food out to the car. True.

CPR will never save ME, like CCW might. Why even take the CPR course? To be a good neighbor. I have to think it probably won't but could happen, so I prepare myself for it. Being prepared to help a loved one or even a stranger who has loved ones at home, isn't trying to be a hero, or macho, it's being a good neighbor. Being prepared to save yourself- that's just survival instinct that every being comes with out of the factory.

Again, I think we're talking about degree.

Five degrees that I see here:

1. There's the guy walking around every day looking for trouble, poised to blow someone away. This guy is crazy as hell. These guys are rare, I trust, on this forum.

2. There's the guy who carries into the aforementioned place thinking it may be robbed.

3. There's the guy who carries everywhere. Because "One more gun couldn't hurt, right?" He thinks the pizza place is no more dangerous than the fast-moving highway in front of it.

4. There's the guy who won't carry into the aforementioned pizza place 'cause he thinks "it would never happen to me".

5. Then there's the guy paranoid enough to think the pizza place in the original post is too dangerous and will avoid it like the plague. I think he's as crazy as the guy in #1. Fortunately, these guys are rare, too.

xnavy, I really don't think you are in category 1 or 5, so I don't think we are far from agreeing, and as long as you are a pro-gun gunowner I consider you a friend.

Clone yourself, the sport needs more of you.

Pythonguy, with all due respect, I don't think of the defensive use of the pistol as a "sport". We're not talking about paper targets, we're talking about people's lives.

xnavy
May 31, 2005, 06:40 AM
Wayne,

I do respect your opinion and like I said, everyone has to be accountable for thier own actions. I consider all CCL owners brothers in arms. The only thing I am trying to get across is be careful what you wish for it may happen. Like I said the original poster is already anticipating a 4th robbery and yet he still wants to have dinner knowing that the chances are good it will get robbed again. Its not paranoid to think the place is dangerous when its been robbed 3 times and the poster is already anticipating a 4th robbery. Maybe the pizza place is in a high crime area, that wasn't addressed in his post. I carry to protect myself and my family and if the situation calls for it to protect innoncent life. With this in mind I still will use good judgement about where I take my family. I won't take my family somewhere where there has been repeated robberies, it doesn't make good sense IMHO.

P.S. I am not sure I would categorize CPR and CCW as the same. One is strictly used to save life presenting no danger to others. The other can be used to take life either BG's or Innoncents depending on your training and skills.

Its ok for us to disagree, thats what makes america wonderful.

Superhornet
May 31, 2005, 06:46 AM
All this physiology has me confused...Bad guy holding up some place and probably going to shoot an unarmed person and or persons ?? Possible will not want to leave any witnesses.....Glock 20C--center body only to alleviate the threat---Bang, bang, have a nice day.........

SamD
June 1, 2005, 02:40 PM
If you allow evil people to keep you from doing what is lawfully yours to do.
the evil has won.

Sam

wayneinFL
June 1, 2005, 08:16 PM
P.S. I am not sure I would categorize CPR and CCW as the same. One is strictly used to save life presenting no danger to others. The other can be used to take life either BG's or Innocents depending on your training and skills.

CPR and other first aid skills can be misused causing injury or death to a victim. Don't think for a minute you won't be sued for trying to help someone out in a situation like that. One case comes to mind in which a sheriff's deputy lost his legs when hit by a drunk driver in our town. A retired LEO (Massachusetts state trooper?) stopped to help and was sued for putting a tourniquet on his leg.

Its ok for us to disagree, thats what makes america wonderful.

I agree.

xnavy
June 2, 2005, 07:00 AM
Wayne I agree that you can hurt the victim with CPR or first aid. What I meant to get across is he or she is the only one you can hurt. Using CPR can only hurt the person you are working on, a CCW can not only hurt the BG but other innocent victims as well. That is why I said the Two really can't be compared.

k9lwt
June 13, 2005, 08:41 PM
No vest, no backup, no radio, 1 magazine, not sure who who's working with him... I would quietly get on the cell phone and act as one hell of a witness unless the stuff really hits the fan.

big daddy 9mm
June 23, 2005, 06:05 AM
if he looked like he was going to shoot the clerk then I would shoot his ass, but if not then I would get my a$$ out of there as soon as posisible and call the fuzz. :D :D :D

Massan
July 1, 2005, 04:07 AM
I will scan the surroundings for a clear shot and take it. A lot of armed robbers shoot their victims even if they are cooperative as my friends mom found out. She owns a small resturant and was locking up. One guy walks in with a gun and since she has been robbed a few times in the past she hands him the money like always but this time the guy shoots her in the chest severing nerves, she is now paralyzed from the neck down. If I was ever in a situtation like that I will not hestitate to take out the robber. Besides, its not like the pizza guy will file charges aganist you after you take out someone threatening to kill you.

Twycross
July 1, 2005, 07:52 AM
Besides, its not like the pizza guy will file charges aganist you after you take out someone threatening to kill you.
Probably not, but the BG's family might.

boogeyman
July 1, 2005, 08:59 AM
it all depends on the situation/scenario. 99% chance is that i would make like hell out of the store and drive far away. if that 1% chance of him not having a clear shot on anyone and him not seeing me at the same time with no innocent civis by him... i would most certainly push his wig back with a nice hollow point.

skeeter
July 2, 2005, 01:02 AM
What if his gun was not loaded or a pellet gun and you shot him in the head standing behind him? I would not feel good about that (though if he pointed anything that looked like a gun at me I would shoot). If you can not take cover and from cover tell him to drop the gun then you should leave the scene.

Massan
July 2, 2005, 02:02 AM
Its on the security cameras, BG was seen pulling a "gun" and using it in a threatening manner. If those damned proscuetors can spin a yarn into getting some little kid in jail for plinking cans with a toy gun im sure I can find a defense attorney that will substantiate my story.

Mongo the Mutterer
July 2, 2005, 07:53 AM
Check your six, NOW.

Does the BG have an accomplice? a getaway driver? someone who would be totally po'd if you turned his head into a spaghetti bowl?

I will protect mine and me. I will also protect others, but it is MY responsiblity not to be turned into wallpaper by a 12 gauge from an accomplice.

If you pull your piece, the accomplice may waste you immediately.

If it is clear, pull it, and watch the BG. If he looks like he is going to take the money and run, let him get the hell out. If he looks like he is going to kill the kid for a few bucks, I would blow him the hell away.

Why would you go to a pizza place which you know has been robbed three times recently? Aren't there other places to eat? Do you have a Charles Bronson complex? Just questions to ask yourself.

big daddy 9mm
July 2, 2005, 12:39 PM
I would just keep eating.... :p

Netzapper
July 2, 2005, 06:11 PM
The argument that the pizza shop is not a necessity is a fairly valid one.

However, to answer the original question: I would shoot, assuming that I had a clear shot and there were no accomplices.

In PA, we may legally use lethal force to defend others in any circumstance where the victim of the crime could legally use lethal force. That is, since I could shoot someone for drawing a gun on me, I can also shoot someone for pulling a gun on somebody else.

If somebody has a gun (loaded, unloaded, facsimile, or otherwise) and is using it in a threatening manner, the only rational assumption is that they're willing to shoot somebody.

Lawsuits, I can deal with (hell, my total assets only amount to a few grand anyway). Knowing that I could have acted to save somebody's life, but didn't would haunt me forever.

dtom72
July 16, 2005, 06:39 PM
On a thread witha 7 page reply list, I don't read them all....sorry....short attention span. Here is how I view it...from a civilian point of view.

Walking into the situation, you DON'T know, or should presume he has a accomplice watching the situation. It's a safer bet. My first priority is going to the 10 other people....quick view and tell whisper to the closest one to call the police. Then, quickly turn your attention back to the robbery. You can take a shot, yes, but then you open yourself up to ALOT of litigation.....a personal satisfaction from doing what is right yes, but litigation out the ying-yang. Be prepared for that.

If you can get through the situation without a loss of life, the better it all is. Heck, with so many camera phones out there, snap a picture of him and send it to the detectives....lol. I say, keep cover, monitor the situation and try to assertain if he will shoot the clerk. I don't want the haunting image of brain matter flying all over the place.

Just because you have the ability to kill, doesn't mean every time to use it.

The BG may be scum, a low life, but he is still a person....why take a human life unless it is absolutely needed.

Slateman
July 16, 2005, 11:01 PM
Didn't read it all either :p

I like the shepard idea. I would have a hard time living with myself is something happened to those people and I got out cus I left. I mean, I don't just carry to protect me. I carry to protect other people too. I mean, how would you feel if you found out later that he capped some little kid? :(

But on the other hand, he might have an accomplice. If possible, quietly get the other customers to leave out the back while getting on the phone. And I make damn sure the operator knows I'm armed.

Now if its me, once everyone possible is out, I'm staying. First I'm gonna try and locate another BG. If I see one or more, time to leave. Discretion is the better part of valor.

If one BG, then I find the most defensive place I can that has a view of the exits and bathroom. Get my pistol out and ready. Center my sights. Call out to him. Be authoritative, but not over the top. Tell him that the police are on the way and that if he wants to live, he should leave now. If he threatens either me or the cashier, bang.

Oh and one other thing: If he looks either intoxicated or high, I empty the magazine. I really don't wanna wrestle a guy on PCP.

Lawyer Daggit
July 17, 2005, 06:36 PM
I would leave and call 911 or if I could not do so get my gun ready and monitor the situation.

If you pull the gun and alarm the BG you may start a firefight and there are too many potential targets there.

Even professionals would be unlikely to engage a bad guy in there- it would be likely to generate a firefight and a hostage situation.

It may be safer for law enforcement officers to tackle him outside.

Hahnb
August 10, 2005, 09:48 PM
If you shoot a Bg that's robbing a pizza hut prepare to spend the next 20 years in prison. Some people think since they have a ccw permit that means they are law enforcement. If you use your weapon in this manner it's going to cost you big time. Having a ccw permit does not give you the right to take the law into your own hands, it allows you to protect yourself when you feel YOU are in immediate danger that could result in serious harm or death. YOU doesn't mean the pizza boy.

625
August 12, 2005, 01:50 PM
Wrong Hahnb. Many officers have been saved or assisted by law-abiding citizens who used their guns against bad guys. Your attitude sickens me. As long as YOU are not in danger, that's all YOU care about. :rolleyes:

Edward429451
August 12, 2005, 04:03 PM
Many officers have been saved or assisted by law-abiding citizens who used their guns against bad guys.

I'm not getting into your guys argument, but I'd just love to read some of these stories. It seems a stretch in todays political climate. You said "many", so a "few" wouldn't be hard to source & post, eh?

Thanks.

RGS
August 13, 2005, 02:43 AM
"CPR and other first aid skills can be misused causing injury or death to a victim. Don't think for a minute you won't be sued for trying to help someone out in a situation like that. One case comes to mind in which a sheriff's deputy lost his legs when hit by a drunk driver in our town. A retired LEO (Massachusetts state trooper?) stopped to help and was sued for putting a tourniquet on his leg. "



One cannot be successfully sued for using CPR or first aid in an emergency situation. At least not in my state. It is called the Good Samaritan law. So long as the person gets permission from the victim to help and does not attempt techniques they are not trained for. If the victim is unconscious, permission is assumed. In the case above, doctors in surgery use tourniquets. CPR classes do not teach their use. The ex LEO above over stepped. The same with a tracheotomy. Leave that stuff to the professionals.

If the victim is unconscious, has no pulse and you break a few ribs and tear up some cartilage giving chest compressions ( which you will if you do it right) you can't be sued.

If you misdiagnose and a victim goes into anaphylactic shock because of an allergy and you think he is simply choking. You start doing abdominal thrusts on him. He continues to choke and clutch his throat. He tries to say something to you but you can't make out what it is. He eventually passes out and stops breathing. Now you try to breath for him and the breaths won't go in. You look for an obstruction and try again. Finally the EMT guys get there and you find out you totally misread the symptoms from the beginning. You STILL can't be sued because you did the best you could with the knowledge you had and you didn't overstep your training. Luckily a shot of epinephrine and he is right as rain in a few minutes.

Next time he promises to ware his medic alert bracelet. :barf:

Hawes45
August 13, 2005, 04:08 AM
involved in several situations over the years (could write a book)
you must make a judgement call and be able to read people
as nowadays a lot of BGs will shoot regardless if they get
what they want or not and you have to know your own
limitations mentally ie:
1) Could you honestly live with yourself by taking another life?
This sounds anti but really think for a moment and if not
go with the flock and when you get home lock the piece up
for good as you could endanger others by not actually going
through with it.
2) Are you prepared for the legal onslaught that will follow
until the investigation clears everything?
3) Are ready to stand up to the anti crowd who think that
there had to be another way? (WAAAAAAA)

This is just my .02 pennies

P.S. I have drawn but never had to fire (fortunately) but
the my life a loved one or an innocent I would not
hesitate and can honestly say I could live with it.

buzz_knox
August 13, 2005, 01:41 PM
Apparently you haven't read the laws concerning concealed carry. It only gives you the right to defend yourself, or family members in the event of serious bodily harm or death.

Clearly, you haven't read them either. Nor have you paid attention to the law regarding self-defense. The general rule is that a person may use deadly force when there is an imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent, whether that person is you, a family member, or a clerk you've never seen before but who now has a gun in his or her face. The reasonable and subjective standards still apply, but doing so is not "acting as a police officer" nor "taking the law into your own hands." The law is squarely on the side of defending the innocent; the only question is whether the particular facts at issue warrant deadly force.

joab
August 13, 2005, 01:43 PM
Maybe JoshuaHanh should spend more time actually researching the laws he quotes and less time trolling.

In Fla he would be well within his rights to come to the aid of any victim of violent crime.
Please show me the link to the laws of any state that specifically limit defense to self or state approved family members.

Even if you kill someone in your own home they can question whether that person was intending to harm you or notIn many states the fact that he is in your home without authorization or invitation is proof that he means you harm.

Google up "Castle Doctrine" or "Make My Day Law

Do it quickly, judging from your other post on the BOB thread you may not be here much longer

Buzz types faster than I do

buzz_knox
August 13, 2005, 01:52 PM
Buzz types faster than I do

Comes from being a seat polisher. ;)

By the way, for the people who have talked about getting the other 10 people out of the building and being a good witness: how exactly do you plan on doing that without precipitating a firefight? Anything you do or say to get them out of the area will tip off the bad guy, who's likely to start popping off rounds once the crowd starts moving and freaking him out.

buzz_knox
August 13, 2005, 02:04 PM
So if the BG has a knife does that constitute deadly force? What about a brick? What about his fists? You don't understand that the law ISN'T SET IN STONE. The jury/judge decides what happens to you, not the law.

Well, you just proved you haven't studied the issue. If a person has the ability and opportunity to put you in jeopardy, then the rules apply. A person with a knife or brick (or bludgeon as the law looks at it) can easily kill a person they can reach, and law enforcement knows full well that anyone can cover 21 feet is less than 1.5 seconds. As for fists, it's a more difficult issue. If disparity of force is involved (i.e. martial artist, significantly larger or clearly stronger), then the use of fists can constitute deadly force and the distance rule comes into play. And if the person gets within striking range, they are within range to grab your weapon. Cops are trained to shoot the bad guy off the gun as a last resort, so I see no issue in that.

I'm very familiar with the fluid nature of the law. But you aren't familiar with the fact that the law does have structure consisting of statutes and precedents. And those are both firmly on my side, not yours.

As for the jury/judge deciding, the case has to go to them first. Which means the cops, DA, and/or grand jury have found probable cause to determine you did something wrong. Barring political considerations, that means you screwed up somewhere in the decision making or explaining process. So, I would suggest getting training in this area so you don't screw said process.

X-RAY
August 13, 2005, 03:12 PM
Even Though Most Peoples First Reaction Would Be To Drop The Bg, It's A Bad Idea. Too Many Liabilities. If It Was Me Or One Of My Loved Ones,behind The Counter I Would Pray For That Head Shot
The Lawyers Would Have A Field Day Picking Over What Should Have Been Done. Even With All The Evidence O.j. Was Found Innocent

625
August 13, 2005, 05:13 PM
I'm not getting into your guys argument, but I'd just love to read some of these stories. It seems a stretch in todays political climate. You said "many", so a "few" wouldn't be hard to source & post, eh?

Here is a "few".(about 22) Let me know if you want more. It took me all of 10 seconds to find these with that nifty Google thing, ever hear of it? You should try it, you would have been able to verify my post in less time than it took you to post the above. That was pretty easy, eh? :rolleyes:

http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/officers_peril.htm

ruger270man
August 13, 2005, 11:34 PM
If I could draw quietly without him seeing me, I'd put a couple rounds in his head no problem

Eghad
August 14, 2005, 11:32 PM
OH Noes not name calling..........we need to have the visual equivelant of that commercial where the big beer can falls out of the sky crushing the person for not being a manly man..lol ..in the offenders post.

I do beleive Cain killed Abel with a rock?

Wonder how many folks are killed by blunt instrument trauma?

buzz_knox
August 15, 2005, 07:21 AM
Talk about cowardice. Some of the trolls are taking this to PM, but have disabled their PM so you can't respond. Guess their afraid of having somethign spoil their rather screwed up perception of reality. Who is hanksterhk anyway?

joab
August 15, 2005, 04:27 PM
Who is hanksterhk anyway? You know him better as HanhB and Joshua from the BOB thread

chemist308
August 15, 2005, 04:56 PM
Hmmm...he hasn't seen me. Depends on what kind of gun it is. If like the gun and I can get any closer without being made I'd probaby start kicking his ass, take his gun and keep it for myself. Most people grossly underestimate me upon first sight. :)