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Rob Pincus
September 26, 2002, 10:34 AM
Okay, here's some info from day one:

Team TFL and SWAT are scheduled to shoot the stages together, with TFL going first.

Our first stage consisted of two mover targets with a hostage in between. The shooter had to move laterally with the targets and score as manyhits as possible on the bad guys. Total rounds for the stage was limited to 30 and the shooter had to clear 12 steel targets from cover after the movers phase. Obvisouly, it was smart to not throw 18 rounds at the movers. Most of us played it conservatively and saved plenty of lead for the steel. I know that I only had one round left at the end!
Yes, the hostage took some shots.

The second stage was a rifle stage that got a littel "gamey." Altough the course of fire called for a set number of shots to be fired from various ranges as the line closed in on our targets, we found out after the phase that the scoring system alllowed "pick-up" shots. In other words, if you had too many rounds in the target the lowest scoring ones were dropped. I have no doubt that some of the "gamers" took full advantage of this by saving shots for the closer ranges and blazing from close in. Oh well. I tried to "spread the love" bby shooting Flint's target. The score keeper actually held the target up to his face to try to figure out why two holes were .30 caliber! They counted (for Flint, of course!).

The third stage was a shooting and moving, run & gun battle with several steel targets spread out in the desert scrub. The shooter had to move down a trail engagin targets in small groups, with stations to engage pairs of targets at farther distances. Team SWAT was plagued with malfunctions on this stage. It wasn't pretty, but we got through it.

We also shot the night Team event on Wednesday. The rifle phase was tough. The shooters had to fire as a group, without lights, at bad guys who were represented by strobe lights that turned on and off. The strobes were supposed o be "muzzle flash". The shooter had to decide if the bad guy was right or left handed and blaze away wherever they thought the body might be. We were not told our scores on this phass. I was relieved!
Then the teams split up, with one pair shooting pistols and the other becoming a pistol/shotgun team. Denny and Flint took on a filed of steel with their weapons, clearing bad guys from good while using their flashlights to scan the crowd. Brent and I took on two more movers as they traversed between cover and and bystanders.

More Later...

Schmit
September 26, 2002, 10:53 AM
More Later?

What is this Lord of the Rings? A Soap Opera? :D

Those of us that are back here holding down the fort need a complete after action report seeing as we can't be there to watch. Play by Play, Player by Player... we wait (patiently) with baited breath hanging around in the Lounge on the edge of our seats!

Alllllllllllll I want to know is how the loaner guns I've got out are running. My biggest fear is that Scott or George will have a malfunction that causes Team TFL not to take first (or at least kick Team SWATs arse). :p

Tamara
September 26, 2002, 01:36 PM
(or at least kick Team SWATs arse).

I dunno, the plan to pick up some last-minute ringe... er, "volunteers" for Team TFL seems to have gone okay... ;)

4V50 Gary
September 26, 2002, 01:48 PM
Ave Ricardo! Salutante te morituri!

TheBluesMan
September 26, 2002, 08:30 PM
Thanks for the report, Rob. Sounds like a LOT of fun.

I didn't see any scores or "head-to-head" comparison of how Team TFL did against Team S.W.A.T. I assume all scores will be posted tomorrow (at the range). Please relay them to the Lounge A.S.A.P. Can't wait to hear how Scott, George et al are doing. Sounds like Team S.W.A.T. is holding their own too...

Rob Pincus
September 26, 2002, 09:11 PM
Sorry, I did not copy the scores down, but they were posted. I don't remember anyone on either team being any better than in the 40's when it came to overall ratings. Of course, those were just partial results, as not every one had shot certain stages. The scores today were mostly irrelevant to the big picture, as only about a third of the shooters would have shot any given stage. That means our rankings could only get worse as future shooters out do our scores, those scoring worse would have no effect. Considering that the 40'ish rankings were out of about 70 shooters on those stages, no members of the home team should be expecting big money on Saturday.

Besides, it's not about the score, it's about trying your best and learning from your mistakes.

As for malfunctions... I don't think that there have been any problems with the shotgun, but there have been some issues with several handguns and at least two rifles:
Flint is using plastic mags in his AR which may be causing a problem.
The FAL almost got tossed down the range today.
My Aimpoint did get tossed acrossed the staging area.

Oh well. Lesson learned: Get your gear straightened out. Shoot bunches of the ammo/weapon/mags/gear combo you plan on usnig. Of course, we all know that, had ample time and sufficient ammo, but not all of us devoted the time necessary.

I think I speak for everyone when I say that this has been more challenging than we thought it would be. I now that I have been surprised with the difficulty level. While "gaming" some stages coul help, the truth is that the course is tough no matter what your mindset/approach/configuration.

_________________________________
Today's stages:

Rifle line with 10 shooters at once. Team TFL and Team SWAT were all represented. a shooters number was called out and he was given the command "left," "right," or "middle." The shooter then had to engage his paper target, the appropriate (L,R,M) steel target and the paper target once more. This was done 6 times from a sitting position and 6 times from prone. Time was a factor and the amount was less for the prone shots (I think 8 and 6 seconds respectively.)
This is were the FAL and Flint's AR really caused problems. Several shot opportunities were missed.

"Black Hawk Down"
This was a scenario based stage with all sorts of psuedo-wreckage strewn about the shooting area. The shooter moved through 6 shooting positions from standing to prone using various objects for cover. From each stage the shooter engaged a target at 100, 200 and 300 yards. Total rounds 18. I think that Pvtpyle and Brent did better than the rest of us with around 10 hits (don't hold me to that). Most of us did significantly worse. Shortly after I completed this stage my aimpoint went for a ride. I turned it off about halfway through the stage and made more hits with my iron sights. Scores here were based on hits and total time.
__________________________________________


The team competition scores were not posted today. I plan on being able to provide a #1-#8 ranking for all our participants in the general area as well as telling you how the teams ranked relative to one another in the Team Event. The latter should be available tomorrow, but the former may have to wait until Saturday.
In addition to overall rankings, some of us are in side-matches such as "first time shooters," "Reserve LEO" and "LEO." I suggested that Denny enter the Senior bracket, but he didn't seem to excited about the opportunity ;).
I'll try to get more score info for tomorrow's update.

Rich Lucibella
September 27, 2002, 07:05 AM
Great reports, Rob. Thanks and keep 'em coming.

To the guys out there, I say again:
Have Fun.
Shoot Well

In that order.
Rich

Rob Pincus
September 27, 2002, 09:36 PM
Day Three:

Three more stages and much more of the same. Today was a little different in that we shot pistol and shotgun stages, no rifle at all. Several of us found a lot more rifle than we were expecting, particularly distance shooting. There was not a single "entry" or "CQB" rifle stage during the whole event, single or team competition.

Mortar Pit:
This stage was a "last stand at the Alamo" type deal. The shooter is at a mortar position being overun by the enemy armed with only a shotgun. The shooter moved between 5 shooting stations behind various cover engaging 4-5 targets per area. The targets were close, the skills involved in this stage were moving, using cover properly (which they were liberal on) and loading quickly. That last part was particularly important. The last two targets were out at 60 and 80 yards and were engaged with slug rounds.

The FBI Walk:
This stage was a pistol event with three bad guys mixed in with several bystander targets. The shooter walked between two lateral limits at three ranges (about 8, 10 and 12 yards) and engaged all three targets. The shooter had to move laterally at all ranges to get clear shots. As far as I know everyone hit at least one good guy. The shots were tough and the angles were slim, with innocents behind the targets also. 18 shots, 2 strings from each range.

The ******** alley (I forget the actual name):
THis was a shotgun stage. The shooter moved through 5 shooting stations which were doorways. 3-5 targets were engaged at each area. Again, the key to this was quick loading. The targets were relatively close, but there were no-shoot innocents mixed in to make the shooter slow down a little.

__________________

More scores were posted and it is clear that Team TFL brought in a ringer! James was leading our 8 representatives according to the scores posted so far. The final scores for individuals will be posted here tomorrow with the 1-8 rankings.

And now, the moment you've all been waiting for:

In the Open/Marksman Team competition there were 10 teams. Team TFL and Team SWAT were both in this category. One team came in 5th with 169 points, the other 9th with 122 points.

Rob Pincus
September 29, 2002, 02:04 AM
Well, I showed up to the range during the shoot-offs this morning and found quite a surprise: Denny was in a shoot-off! Of course, Denny was more surprised than the I was when they told him! Denny made it into the shoot-off for one fo the side events, which was something in and of itself. They ended up only rewarding the top three shooters in the event, but it was nice to see Denny getting the chance to compete for an award.

Meanwhile, the final scores were posted and it wasn't all that pretty. I know I promised to post the results in a 1-8 fashion, but isn't the important thing that we tried and gave it our best?

I'll tell you this, James beat all 7 of us that knew we were going to the event for 6 months! He scored first of all the TFL and SWAT guys. Of course, he was still in the bottom third of the overall with the rest of us, but at least he gave a good showing as pertains to the home team. He came in 76 out of over 200 in one stage which featured some precision rifle work from various positions and I saw him doing it.. it was pretty impressive compared to what the rest of us had to offer on that stage!

Brent Wheat came in second of the eight, with a very consistent performance. Brent would've placed higher overall and maybe even caught James if he had not spilled all of his shotgun shells on the final stage... but that's a long story and you guys will never let him know that I told you, right?

I managed to eek out 3rd place for our group despite a particularly dismal showing on the Tactical Alley where I tiptoed around corners as if the steel plates might actually shoot back at me and earned a staggering 201st place out of 211 people who shot the stage!

I'll let the other guys share their own stories and rankings with you at their convenience.

Schmit
September 29, 2002, 07:07 AM
but isn't the important thing that we tried and gave it our best?


No that isn't the important thing... the important thing is that you learned from your experience and your tactics/weapon manipulation is now better for the experence. The second most important thing is that you had fun. The third thing is that you represented SWAT and TFL in a professional manner.

II know everyone learned something and how can you not have fun shooting this type of match. The third is a given by the caliber (pun intended) of individuals on the teams.

GOOD SHOW!

George Hill
September 29, 2002, 01:13 PM
The match was great and overall run very well. It was organized very well too. I just wish it wasn't 5 days of it. 3 Max. shoot 5 stages each day and then the dinner on the 3rd day.

Placing low in the rankings means nothing... We were going up against the Mike Jordans and Tiger Woods of the shooting sports. Some of these cats are running stages with time scores that are just unbelievable. We are all doing about a 100 average and these guys are cutting that in half.
If you ran the stage actually "Tactically" you just hosed yourself. These gun-game guys are running 2,000 SVI raceguns with the biggest mag-funnels I've ever seen. JP-Enterprises super tuned and tricked out AR-15s with all the bells and whistles... Guns that wouldn't last 5 hours in actual field use. IPSC arms race has nothing on the 3 gun. I know you can't buy skill - but you can buy some little expensive things that can shave time here and there. I was thinking "Where is the TACTICAL?" when I saw this guy with a pink and chrome AR with a muzzle break the size of a coffee can.
It's all just a game - but there are leasons to be learned. Each shooter knows each shot he or she took on each stage. Knows what they did wrong or what they could have done better. I know I am not that great with a 12, but I could probably have done better if I stuck with my pump isntead of switching to a semi (even a really nice semi) at the last minute. I didn't know the manual of arms as well as I should have and that cost me time on the night shoot. You have to really - really know your guns.
My best stage was the blackhawk down stage... I took 91st overall. I know I could have done much better... First two trigger pulls yeilded clicks, and a 3rd gave me a miss... That threw the mental game and I made up for it by just hustling my butt off. Then the transition to pistol to stop the clock by hitting a close range plate.

James, Correia and I are planning on coming back. We are also planning on using AK's and Siaga shotguns. Reloading 5 new shells is a simple rock and lock move... done. That would have helped in a huge way. At least me for sure, but I wasn't the only one that fumbled a reload. Two guns with the same manual of arms... We saw one shooter that had one and that is the ticket.

The rifle stages favored the scoped guns by far.
The shotgun stages were all just reload drills.
The pistol stages were the best. Loved them. "THE VIL" was the best. Fast and furious pistol work with close to far ranges that you had to find. Let me say that again... You had to FIND the targets. It was great.

Rich Lucibella
September 29, 2002, 01:40 PM
Great reports, guys. Thanks.

I wonder if we shouldn't move this out to the Competition or Lock and Load forum? Might get people thinking in terms of next year. We might even see 3 or 4 TFL teams enter?
Rich

George Hill
September 29, 2002, 03:10 PM
My report is too long to post here. And when I did the copy paste thing it threw in a lot of underscore lines that I didn't type.
Anyways, if your interested, you can read mine at MadOgre.com.


Rob, if you could, I'd like a copy of the TFL Team photo... if you could email that to me. That would be great.

You guys should have seen Rob coming off the Blackhawk Down stage... He chucked that Aimpoint out there 50 yards. He was in the run and I guess it was about 1/2 way through it the sight failed and he had to switch to irons. Still had a good time on the clock and hit what? 8 targets?

Larry said that team for team we beat the SWAT team and also the Arizona Rangers. I don't know, I wasn't looking at the scores that close. I was just happy I wasn't last... and I beat Denny. So I could go home happy. Larry (being an accountant) said that if we were in the L catagory we would have won some nice prizes. T-Shirt, a hat, and a bottle of FP-10 oil. :D

Other things... Flint Hansen was running a Charles Daly. In the middle of the FBI Walk stage his gun broke and the firing pin shot out the back. Thanks to the Arizona Rangers, the gun was fixed and he was able to finish the stage. I don't think a CD handgun is worth consideration.

Gunny's old 1911 ran great. It was the only weapon that never gave me a blink of problems.

Scott's AR-10 - Judas Priest! I seemed to always be lined up right next to him on the line. That muzzle break was blowing the gasses from that little 16 incher right into my face. I actually had a bloodshot right eye since he was shooting on my right hand side. Thank heavens for safety glasses!
You guys should have seen him on the Mortar Pit stage... he can really scramble if he wants to! He was working that shotgun like an animal... Some fine shooting!

Denny Hansen
September 29, 2002, 05:40 PM
I came in dead last out of the SWAT/TFL shooters. Things like slowly slicing the pie and taking full use of cover are habits that are hard to break. The use of realistic tactics also had a negative effect on Rob, Brent and Flint in what is basically a speed contest. Not an excuse for our rather dismal performance, but it's the best reason our egos could come up with.

My worst stage was a rifle stage. I thought I was doing great with time to spare: Front sight on chest of target, press the trigger, follow through: piece of cake. As I walked off the line it hit me--300 yard battle zero, so I should have been holding low at 100. Sure enough only 3 hits on the target, all up around the head.

The shoot-off Rob mentioned earlier was mostly based on performance with one-handed and weak-hand performance. I practice weak-hand/backup gun shooting quite a bit so I did OK on that stage, coming in fourth.

We all had a great time and the support given by all members of the match staff and shooters for S.W.A.T.'s sponsorship was overwhelming. Gave a short talk at the banquet and received a standing ovation--at least from the table with the TFL and SWAT guys:cool:

Denny

Rob Pincus
September 29, 2002, 06:29 PM
Since Denny came out with his ranking, here's the scoop:

Team Competition:
Team TFL came in 9th out of 10 in the team competition, Team SWAT was 5th.


Individual Rankings
1-8 individually the rankings were:

James (21 spots above Brent and 25 spots above his next team mate!)
Brent
Rob
Scott
Larry
Flint
George
Denny


Team SWAT average overall ranking 189.7
Team TFL average overall ranking 182



Rich,

I will be copying this thread to competition and editing out certain aspects that are internal. (including this note)

Andrew Wyatt
September 29, 2002, 09:17 PM
Frist off, I'd like to say that I really enjoyed attending and helping to run the Swat magazine 3-gun match this year.

As for using realistic tactics, I really like it when a shooter actually uses them instead of running through the stages like they're IPSC courses. (even though I wasn't working at the other stages, I heard about the SWAT magazine team's good use of tactics multiple times from the other RO's)

I'm currently working on a system that returns fire at the shooters in a nonlethal,yet painful manner so they actually do use cover and good tactics, but that will be rather far down the road.


As for way the stages were set up, the scoped rifles are scored separately from the iron sighted rifles, which means the iron sighted rifle guys are only competing against the iron sighted guys and the scope guys are only competeing against scope guys.
(the scores are figured from the top iron sighted scorer in each stage)

As for shotguns, most shotgun work of any duration is a reload drill, given the capacity of the weapon in question.

I'm going to run some ideas by my father about the mag funnels(which i find somewhat abhorrent), and what to do about them, as well as something to encourage tactics use more.

as for the "IPSC arms race has nothing on the 3 gun" I must say that i'm rather hurt by that statement (i really shouldn't be, beacause i understand fully what you mean). the rules we have in place are to encourage equipment that won't get the shooter killed if they were to actually be in the situations simulated in the match. many of the shooters in the match are shooting their carry guns (I know the arizona rangers did and I congratulate them on that) and in some cases, especially the law enforcement division (the L guys with the great prizes) those carry guns are STI raceguns with giant mag funnels.

I'm planning on shooting in the match next year, and i'd like to get a TFL california team together.

Denny Hansen
September 29, 2002, 10:04 PM
Other things... Flint Hansen was running a Charles Daly. In the middle of the FBI Walk stage his gun broke and the firing pin shot out the back. Thanks to the Arizona Rangers, the gun was fixed and he was able to finish the stage. I don't think a CD handgun is worth consideration.

Actually the Charles Daly was running pretty good until (unknown to me) a "gunsmith" friend asked to inspect it. Flint's friend replaced the stock firing pin spring with a "better, shorter" spring which resulted in the firing pin block not having enough pressure on it to keep the block, pin and spring in place. A Kimber it's not, but bad advice and a poor replacement part was the true culprit.

Denny

Correia
September 30, 2002, 12:07 AM
Got my butt handed to me. Here in local matches I'm a medium fish in a tiny pond, at the WC3gun I'm a guppy swimming with sharks. :)

For those of you wondering:
#155 James Bunten (TFL) 335.56
#176 Brent Wheat (SWAT) 308.09
#178 Rob Pincus (SWAT) 306.90
#183 Scott Evans (TFL) 299.14
#188 Larry Correia (TFL) 294.90
#200 Flint Hansen (SWAT) 260.35
#202 George Hill (TFL) 249.89
#205 Denny Hansen (SWAT) 235.37

As soon as Erick had to cancel, I knew exactly what TFLer to get. PvtPyle shoots rifle competitively for the Army with taxpayer funded ammo. :) He is one bad bad dude with a rifle. So I guess we did kind of have a ringer, but he is a TFLer. But he makes up for it by hating shotguns. :p To put our scores in perspective, Bruce Piatt finished with 706.57 points.

Most of us were in a pretty close pack, with Brent being 14 seconds ahead of me. On that Targets of Opportunity stage (from hell) after twenty minutes of sitting there in the sun, getting all sore and twitchy, and having to clear 12 (yes 12) malfunctions in one stage, that second day did me in. Day one and day three I did okay.

I'm still not sure what happened with my rifle, I've got several thousand rounds through it with no problem, come out to the big match, and choke non-stop. I even rechecked my zero that morning, and went through 60 rounds with no problems. (How come I can nail that 300 yard practice target no problem, but choke on the 300 yarder in Black Hawk Down? Go figure).

I am now a grand master of malfunction clearance drills though. :) On my last string I was able to fire at the paper, clear a jam, hit the steel, and clear the second jam all in six seconds! On the FBI walk I had the extractor of my 1911 pull clean through the rim of a cartridge, peeled my thumb nail off clearing it, but I managed to do pretty darn good on the other 5 strings of that one.

I'm not that concerned about the equipment race, face it George, the guys that won this match could have beat us with Hi-point carbines, a .25 Lorcin, and a NEF handi shotgun. Heck, Piatt could have beat me with a pointy stick and a rock. Even an SVI with a huge magwell is still a practical duty gun. They are reliable and shoot where they are pointed. Sounds good to me. I shot with my carry gun, my field rifle, and a pump shotgun I've had since I was 12. If I had another $3000 invested in my equipment, I still would have got smacked around by the competition. (except maybe I wouldn't have had so many rifle malfunctions D'Oh!)

I'm going to be running an ACOG next year. Playing with the demo models that Trijicon had set out sold me on them.

I want to thank Rich for making this all possible. Rich you are the man. Denny, Flint, Rob, Brent, it was great to shoot with you guys. Andy it was a pleasure to meet you.

And it was a blast to be on the same team as Jaime, Scott, and George. You guys are great.

Looks like TFL wins the 2002 Grudge Match, we figured that next year Denny is going to show up with Awerbuck and Clint Smith on his team and say "Hey they write for us too!" TFL vs. SWAT 2003 here we come baby! Bring it on! :D :p


And the greatest question of the match: "Where are you going with that big dangerous gun?"

You had to be there. Hopefully by next year the Arizona Rangers will have forgotten about it and quit teasing me. :)

Schmit
September 30, 2002, 05:38 AM
Gunny's old 1911 ran great. It was the only weapon that never gave me a blink of problems.

OLD? Hey, lets not start name calling! ;)

It may not be all that pertty but it is reliable and hits where you point it. I have been thinking about getting it refinished, green bottom black upper, NP3 internals but I'm hesitant that by doing so it may screw up the reliablility.... if it ain't fixed don't break it (or somthing like that). :D

Rich Lucibella
September 30, 2002, 08:28 AM
Looks like TFL wins the 2002 Grudge Match
How do you figure? I thought it was 5th vs 9th, with SWAT taking 5th?

"we figured that next year Denny is going to show up with Awerbuck and Clint Smith on his team and say "Hey they write for us too!" Nope. Next year we're gonna really handicap Team S.W.A.T.....rumor has it the Publisher is shooting!

Rich

Correia
September 30, 2002, 08:42 AM
Rich, BRING IT ON BABY! :D :p Seriously it would be a real pleasure to shoot with you.

The 5th and 9th place finish was from the team night shoot event. That was the qualifier for the team vs. team shootoffs.

Overall team standings put TFL at 1179.49 with S.W.A.T. at 1111.52. (Sorry, can't help myself, I'm a Accountant, I had that added up with in 10 seconds of getting the results.) But S.W.A.T. did stomp a mudhole in us at the night shoot. It wasn't pretty.

Denny Hansen
September 30, 2002, 10:35 AM
I sent the five-hour ride home from Vegas figuring out what equipment I'll need to purchase to do better next year. As I pulled into the driveway and removed my "driving glasses" I realized I had overlooked "the answer" (pun intended). I'll be getting some shooting glasses with my corrective prescription built in. For me the solution does not lay in more expensive equipment, but rather to swallow my pride and admit I don't have young eyes any more.

Correia
September 30, 2002, 01:39 PM
Denny, despite needing some new glasses, you sure did shoot a pretty group into the berm directly above the target. :p

On that rifle stage I was getting all twitchy and jumpy and angry, and Brent is sitting on the end relaxing in the sun. Darn snipers.

PvtPyle
September 30, 2002, 02:01 PM
I have to say thank you to Rich for sponsoring us on this. It was a truely outstanding time! I learned alot from it all and will be back next year(if ask of course) and plan on breaking the top 100:p .

I think I did pretty well on the rifle lanes considering I was using an off the rack M16 that I grabbed from the vault the day before we left. I saw a Seargent shoot it the week before and he did pretty good so I figured it was zeroed fairly well. But I have to concure with Rob here. KNOW YOUR GEAR AND TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED! Larry and I both learned a few valuable lessons here. Mine being, get a new shotgun and actually shoot it more. Larry's being 2 is 1, and 1 is none. Always have a back up ready to go. Be it ammo, mags, or weapons, always have a back up of some sort. I know alot of us are shooting on limited budgets, but we need to make plans for the worst possible senarios. As we both found out, if something will go wrong, it will happen during a competition!

The team score was from the night shoot. We had some problems there and learned a few really good tactical lessons. I know we would have done much better if they had let me use my illumination flare! But SWAT did a good job on that one for sure. I drilled a no shoot on the pistol stage and could not seem to get the RO's to believe that it was a colaborator.

I had an excellent time at the shoot, and look forward to hopefully shooting and working with everyone in the future!

BTW, the cumulative team scores from all scores combined were:

SWAT=1110.71
TFL=1179.49

So as you can see the teams were fairly close in overall score. I think it made for a good competition between the two and look forward to spanking you all again next year.:D

Shoot safe!

PvtPyle
September 30, 2002, 02:20 PM
I have to say thank you to Rich for sponsoring us on this. It was a truely outstanding time! I learned alot from it all and will be back next year(if ask of course) and plan on breaking the top 100:p .

I think I did pretty well on the rifle lanes considering I was using an off the rack M16 that I grabbed from the vault the day before we left. I saw a Seargent shoot it the week before and he did pretty good so I figured it was zeroed fairly well. But I have to concure with Rob here. KNOW YOUR GEAR AND TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED! Larry and I both learned a few valuable lessons here. Mine being, get a new shotgun and actually shoot it more. Larry's being 2 is 1, and 1 is none. Always have a back up ready to go. Be it ammo, mags, or weapons, always have a back up of some sort. I know alot of us are shooting on limited budgets, but we need to make plans for the worst possible senarios. As we both found out, if something will go wrong, it will happen during a competition!

Larry may think I am a bit of a ringer because I shoot for the Army. Well I am just a small fish in a big pond there too. The biggest upside is that I get free ammo. I brought home about 4k brass to turn in, so you guys better get your rifleman game down! After all that ammo, I may actually place in a match next season.

The team score was from the night shoot. We had some problems there and learned a few really good tactical lessons. I know we would have done much better if they had let me use my illumination flare! But SWAT did a good job on that one for sure. I drilled a no shoot on the pistol stage and could not seem to get the RO's to believe that it was a colaborator.

I had an excellent time at the shoot, and look forward to hopefully shooting and working with everyone in the future!

BTW, the cumulative team scores from all scores combined were:

SWAT=1110.71
TFL=1179.49

So as you can see the teams were fairly close in overall score. I think it made for a good competition between the two and look forward to spanking you all again next year.:D

Shoot safe!

MiniZ
September 30, 2002, 06:20 PM
My hat is off to all involved. Great job guys!
Knowing most of you like I do, I am sure that if you are there next year, things will go better. I've never met a bunch that learns from their experiences the way you do.

George Hill
September 30, 2002, 08:22 PM
Larry: Yeah, I know you can't buy skill... but I've never seen a professional gunslinger carry a gun with a huge mag funnel, pink receiver, or a muzzle break off a 155.
The left side charging handle in the AR receiver - that's just a dang good idea. If they just did something with the gas system and the ejector...

Correia
September 30, 2002, 10:10 PM
You better believe it Zane. I've got a long list of skills I need to brush up on. I'm excited for next year, and I'm going to make plans to go the the Mystery Mountain 3 gun in March for another big match. (if Bridget will let me since it is right before our aniversary!) I'm going to train hard this year.

I don't know George, if somebody gave me a free pink SVI I would carry it. :)

George Hill
September 30, 2002, 10:18 PM
but not for long

Andrew Wyatt
September 30, 2002, 10:19 PM
several of the LE shooters have letters on department letterhead from their superiors stating that they do indeed carry the pistol they shot in the match in the holster they shot with in the match.
as for the pink pistols, I find them no more offensive than a hardcromed 1911, or a sig with fancy grips. the coloring of a pistol does not affect it's combat worthiness in my opinion.
if you'll notice, the muzzlebreaks all fit within the guidelines of the match (a 155mm cannon muzzlebreak exceeds the dimensions by aproximately twenty times in both directions) :)
as for the tuned Ar-15's, they're obviously reliable enough, or the people who shot them wouldn't have placed very high in the match. Just beacuse an ar doesn't look tactical, that doesn't preclude the possibility that it goes bang and squirts lead out the end.

if you still think that these are problems that need addressing, email one of the staffers at the match and look at the FAQ on the SWAT 3 gun site.

I'd like to start a TFL team 2 for next year with come california area TFLers, or even some TFLers from a free state who want to shoot in the match.

George Hill
October 1, 2002, 12:12 AM
http://www.jpar15.com/iscflat.jpg
Yeah... very tactical...

PvtPyle
October 1, 2002, 11:03 AM
Personally I think monsters like those should be regulated to the precision rifle matches only. Something like that would be great for a match like that, but for a realistic match like the BHD and night shoots you should have to carry a weapon that would really work in the field. I would give the JP's a week max in real field use by a soldier. Maybe less since they would get ridiculed to death for all those fancy pouge colors.:barf:

Dont get me wrong, I would LOVE to have one for precision shooting, But even then it would not be in pimp colors, just plain old black. Or maybe desert tan.:D

Andrew Wyatt
October 1, 2002, 12:16 PM
none of those rifles you posted are legal in the match.

their compensators are too big, and they probably don't make weight.

if you didn't like shooting the match, i'd be happy to take your place on the team. :)

john gangl (the guy who owns JP enterprises) makes a rifle specifically for the SWAT magazine 3 gun match which is pretty damned tactical. It comes in that black color you seem to like, and substitutes a harmonic stabilizer for the muzzlebreak.

PvtPyle
October 1, 2002, 12:48 PM
Yeah, come to think of it, I dont remember actually seeing someone USE those beasts. What is he getting for the tactical one, any ideas off the top of your head? Does it meet the weight reqs?

If you do hold a precision rifle match, that would be a great way to go! Cut the weight at 18lbs or so (that way I could use one from the vault with all the cool optics!) and run it out to the farthest you can manage on the ranges.....

As for actually competing against the guys that own these things, they could use a High point carbine and beat me. While the rifle provides a big advantage, it cant make up for skill. Aint that right Denny?;)

I dont plan on going anywhere any time soon. This stuff is worse than crack for getting addicted to! But nice try:D

Andrew Wyatt
October 1, 2002, 01:02 PM
well, I don't know off the top of my head, but the price for the tactical ones is a lot.

all of the rifles you saw at the match make the weight requirements.

Scott Evans
October 1, 2002, 01:06 PM
I am still in Vegas … and I’ve been having trouble getting connected to the net while here so this is my first look since I’ve been gone. Hopefully I’ll be able to get on again before getting home.

My folks gave my wife and I an anniversary gift and sent her out following the match for a few days with me with no kids. First time in some 15 years! Thanks Mom and Dad!

Likewise; many thanks to Rich for the match. I had an absolute blast … I can’t express how much I appreciate it. Also; my comrades on both the SWAT and TFL teams are class people, and more then ever, good friends. I was really privileged to be here and grouped with such a fine bunch.

The WC3Gun is a superbly run match by any standard and I would encourage any who might be thinking about next year to go ahead and commit. It is certainly my intention to shoot it again next year if possible. If business growth permits I’d like to see a G-Code team there.

As far as performance all I can say is that I was humbled and challenged all at the same time. In retrospect I can see where my foul-ups from day 1 produced excessive caution on my part during day 2(i.e. respectable hits but very slow times). It was not until day 3 that I was attacking the courses of fire as necessary. It was not until the last Shotgun stage (the mortar pit) that I felt I had a stage run equal to my ability. In any event I was not as prepared as well as I thought. Even if I had preformed my best through each stage the skill level of the top 75 scorers (or more) was well beyond my reach. “Wow these guys are good!” Was a reoccurring though for me the entire match. Coming away I can see that I need to broaden the scenarios that I train for and improve my physical condition. Likewise; my speed is not up to par. Also, next year I will need to approach with more match experience under my belt. Last; and you just cannot get away from it, equipment needs to be upgraded. High capacity magazines trump in any stage with out predetermined reloads (most of them). High dollar optics beat low buck scopes past 100 yards and gadgets and gear such as bi-pods, mag carriers, stacked shot gun shell holders and holsters all are enablers if one trains with them. Certainly I do not want to lessen my tactical perspective by turning “gamer”, however; the equipment improvements I have in mind would serve me well similarly armed in an actual conflict.

To the friendly rivalry between team SWAT and TFL: I was of the opinion that the SWAT guys were on top as the night shoot was the only “team” score of the match. Larry, your scoring is at best an unofficial “side match”. At the appointed time and place for the, one and only, “Team” event … they punched our lights out. :D

Good job SWAT!

Correia
October 1, 2002, 01:20 PM
That they did Scott. That they did. The LED targets are still laughing at me. :)

An Edge Works team would be a contender. You have some some high-speed employees. When you get back, e-mail me and I'll give you an update of how the local stores like the G-Code.

Rob Pincus
October 1, 2002, 04:26 PM
Andrew,

Don't take our belly-aching too seriously. The last thing that anyone from Team SWAT is going to do is get inolved in the way the match itself is run or regulated. The entire event staff did a great job. As soon as something becomes a competition, there is a need for rules and scores. Everyone would probably change one or two things to make the amtch suit them better, but that doesn't work. Tactical choices are often subjective and you can't score a match like this subjectively. The staff of WC3GM seems to have worked out a consistent and fair set of rules taht come reasonably close to making people behave in a tactically sound manner while clearing the stages.

As for the gear, I have a personal thing against big mag wells... particularly ones that are so big that you need special mags or base plates to reload the weapon effectively. But if the staff thinks they should b allowed, then I guess I'll see a lot of them next year!

Having department letterhead stating that a weapon was "qualified with" or "is used" is no measure of the weapon's combat effectiveness nor is it some stamp of tactical approval. I have no idea which weapons or officers you are referring to, but if they are carrying pistols giant mag funnels and carrying 5 extra mags with blue anodized aluminum baseplates I think that some critical thinking should be applied.

Scott,

Thanks for the accurate representation of the Team vs. Individual events. Now that we know how it works, we can be more specific about what earns what next year. Meanwhile, let's leave the creative accounting to Wall Street. ;) 'sides, we all know that the better team must be the one with the least deviation between individual member scores!

Denny Hansen
October 1, 2002, 04:41 PM
I believe the match staff did a superb job on all fronts.

As to equipment, I'm not sure it really matters as long as the guns run and the shooter does his part. Overheard while waiting to buy a souvenir T-shirt for my daughter: "Yeah, well give me a gun like Jim Clark's and a bunch of sponsors and I could shoot that good too!" My unsolicited resonse: "No, you couldn't."

PvtPyle
October 1, 2002, 06:09 PM
Come on Denny, surely SOMEONE out there can figure out how to buy proficiancy!;)

Andrew, you will hear bitching about something from everyone at one time or another. But as I explained to some other shooters, you have to find that fine balance of making the game fun and making the game realistic. And thats what it is, a game. You also have to find that fine balance of realism vs. safety. I have never been to a match where the sponsors and staff have pleased everyone. Nor have I ever been to a match of any type that was as much fun and as well done as the one you guys put on. Please pass that along to the rest of the staff. I tried to tell everyone I could but I am sure I missed one or two. Kudos to you all.

I would however like to see some of the top shooters fire weapons that are more or less stock. Not in a competition for money, but instead to see how much the other gizmos, wigits, and dohickies make a difference. That would probably be the biggest indicator of how much they help. Granted it may only be in 10ths of a second, but at the level they are shooting, that can big a big difference. I would just love to see how they do with the same guns most of us use. Talk about showing how a weapon can be pushed to its limits!

Rob, I am sure with a bit of notice for next year, I can get the TFL guys up to speed on their rifle skills, and Larry can get us up to speed on our shotgun skills. He will have to find my skill first because I dont think I have any in there. That way we will all be closer to the 100th place mark next year. We will probably place between 95 and 105 for next year. Thats fairly close together:p

Correia
October 1, 2002, 07:46 PM
Creative accounting? :p OUCH! :D I resemble that remark.

I could buy proficiency. You just watch. One of these days the stuff from the Million Dollar Man is going to come true. Only downside is that I'll make all those bionic whooshing noises while I shoot.

George Hill
October 1, 2002, 09:28 PM
Buying skills... even if I had one of those pimp JP's I know I still couldn't run the course like those guys. Don't think I'm making equipment excuses.
Wyatt... I DID see one of those rifles being used in the games. Seriously. The team just before ours had one on the Targets of Oportunity stage. We saw him zipping it up in the case. Admitedly, I didn't see the muzzle break but everything else was as pictured above. Ask your Dad if some one was using it... I think he could confirm that.

I also observed a G36K on that same stage some time later. Now THAT would be a great rifle for these matches!

I'll second Pyle's comment on seeing these guys run a real "Stock" gun.
You guys are familiar with the term "IROC"? The IROC race series takes the best drivers and puts them in cars that are all as same as possible. I think that would be a great match. All US GI Issue weapons. But I suspect that the same guys at the tops of the list would remain the same guys at the tops of this list too. You have to hand it to those fellas - they sure can shoot!

Andrew Wyatt
October 1, 2002, 11:29 PM
well, whatever. I'm going to shoot the match next year with my single stack, my 500 and either my mini or my dad's m-1a and not worry about what other people are doing.


does anyone know offhand if any of the TFL members from bakersfield or anywhere else in california would like to form up a team for next year?

Correia
October 1, 2002, 11:38 PM
Andy, look up a TFLer by the name of El Rojo. He is located in Kearn County. He is a precision shooter, but I imagine that 3 gun would be right up his alley. He is a good guy. Other than that, I know that we have a bunch of guys up and down the coast. How into 3 gun they would be remains to be seen.

And they do occasionaly have matches where everybody shoots basically the same gun. Like the Single Stack Classic. Guess what. The same guys win, by about the same margin. It ain't the machine, it is the man.

Speaking of machine, I figured out what went wrong with my FAL, but I've got a post going on about that over in Art Of The Rifle.

ChandlerSniper158
October 2, 2002, 09:03 AM
Glad to see you guys had a good time out there, too bad we never got to hook up and shake hands. You completed the match safely and learned from your experience..now you know what your in for next year. Take what you learned from this match and train for next year... :)

AS for the equipment race thing.. just a note. The 4th place shooter Tony Huerstel was shooting an iron sighted AR-15, a Benelli M1 Super 90 and a stock Glock 35, and I know this for a fact, he is my friend and I shot with him all week. Wazoo guns and equipment are not a replacement for skill with a weapon, but they can help a bit. :)

Andrew..I think you and I were talking the nite of the L/E team shoots.. I was with the LAPD guys, and let you check out my M4 with the NSN ACOG.

Rich and Denny, Thank you for stepping up and providing your support to the people who make this match possible, even if you don`t hear it from every shooter.. your help is greatly appreciated.

See you guys next year,
CS#158

PvtPyle
October 2, 2002, 11:26 AM
AS for the equipment race thing.. just a note. The 4th place shooter Tony Huerstal was shooting an iron sighted AR-15, a Benelli M1 Super 90 and a stock Glock 35, and I know this for a fact, he is my friend and I shot with him all week. Wazoo guns and equipment are not a replacement for skill with a weapon, but they can help a bit

See! Thats what I am talking about! This guy came in with stock equipment, chewed some bubblegum, kicked some butt, and took some names! I really wish I had had the oportunity to see this guy shoot. Maybe next year.

Andrew, I know a couple of military shooters from the match that are looking to form a team. They are from back east, but they are good guys and seem to be competent with their weapons. If you can find another person in your area to team up and train with, maybe you guys can form a "bi-coastal" team.

Andrew Wyatt
October 2, 2002, 08:41 PM
chandlersniper158: aah, okay. i remember you. I'm quite favorably impressed with the NSN as my TA01 was much less suitable for night shooting due to its really overbright reticle.

I'll probably Pm el rojo tonight and see how interested he would be.

Correia
October 3, 2002, 08:22 AM
Andrew, he just PMed me back. He is interested, and he has another TFLer who lives in Bakersfield who also may be game.

Rob Pincus
October 3, 2002, 03:59 PM
I'd love to see some of the top shooters in an ISOC (not I-suck, I-SOC, Internation Shoot of Champions) competition.

AR, Glock 21 or Standard 1911 type and an 870. That would be superbly cool. I'd like to see who choked it.


Chandler158,

I'm taking PR II with the Iron Brigade boys next month, have you been through it yet?

ChandlerSniper158
October 4, 2002, 10:43 AM
Rob,

Yeah.. you`ll dig it.. they have the UKD range all done since I was there last.. you can shoot out to about 700 yds from the tower now. You`ll definately get to put a few rounds downrange while your there. Let me know how ya like it.

CS#158

kurtm
October 4, 2002, 09:40 PM
Wow where to start.

Pvt Pyle:
The J.P. tactical ( a way over used and VERY misquoted word) is an 8 1/2 lb rifle w/ aluminum bolt carrier, and sans sights or optics. It's color is black and the high grade barrle is bead blasted stainless. Of course the color is unimportant since spray paint comes in many colors. The cost of this rifle is about $ 1600.oo and comes with a case, cleaning rod guide, bi pod, and many other nice extras. It also has a very nice 3lb. trigger pull.
As to it's reliability, all I can say is since I started to shoot for J.P. I have about 2300 rounds through mine WITHOUT a single malfunction. This includes using 20 and 30 rnd mags, Thermold 45 rnd mags and a Beta C Mag. Yea a G.I. could break it I guess, but Ive seen G.I.s break tanks and artillery also. As to accuracy mine is a 3/4 min. rifle with good loads and using generic Federal ammo is a 1 1/4 min. rifle. This is substatially BETTER than G.I.

George Hill:
As to PIMP J.P. rifles, these ARE NOT the ones used at S.W.AT. wc3gun . They weigh close to 14lbs without optics and are sold as unlimited rifles for U.S.P.S.A. 3 gun competitions. It is a great picture but you need to read the rest of the catalog befor triing to mislead others. This is kind of akin to putting a picture of a FERRARI in a 4 wheel drive magazine and saying what lousy ground clearance it has.
As to the GIANT MAG FUNNEL business. If deep concealment is the goal then you have a SLIGHT point. However when your bracial nerve is stuned by a bullet wound that goes through your arm and that magazine you pulled out of your carrier is slick with your own blood, and your fingers don't have much feeling due to the nerve involvment, you will praise the saints for that GIANT mag well. Just because you don't like the looks of something doesn't make it worthless. For open carry ther is just NO reason not to have every edge you can get.

Rob:
I like your Idea of a ISOC, except I don't think the outcome would change one little bit. WC3GUN is almost always won by an iron sight shooter, Like Bruce this year. I have placed in the top ten since 1996, and up till 2000 I shot a stock M1A, a single stack .45 with 7 round mags only, and a stock Benelli 121-M1 12 Ga. I still shoot my M1As enough to wear out a barrle every year or so, and generally go through about 15,000 .45 rounds a year. I just don't think any of the top shooters would CHOKE. I would love to shoot a match such as you suggest, because I know already pretty much how I and others would do. As a great friend of mine likes to say " it,s the indian, not the arrow" and I tend to agree with her.

Correia
October 5, 2002, 12:58 PM
I agree. Like I said, the top shooters could beat me even if they were armed with a Hi-point, a Lorcin, and a NEF handi-shotgun.

Kurt, congratulations on your good finish.

kurtm
October 5, 2002, 06:33 PM
CORREIA:

My post was not ment to say how great the top shooters are, it was ment to point out that eqipment doesn't make the shooter. I feel that I COULDN'T beat anyone with a Lorcin in my hands or a single shot shotgun; but a stock 1911 and an 870, yes. By the way the Hi point carbines aren't to bad out to about 150, after that it would be chance. I think you have the right idea, by reading your previous posts. Practice, practice, practice, especially with the gear you are going to run in a match such as this. Remember STOCK gear is the main stay of most great shooters. Who can afford to burn up 1600 dollar match rifles just in practice? No one I know! THANK YOU for the kind words!! KURT