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HAWK-HKG11
September 12, 2002, 07:33 PM
I am relatively ignorant about this kind of stuff so forgive me. I always wondered how a baton like an ASP (or any baton for that matter) works. What's the difference between a baton and just some wooden stick? Why is a baton more powerful as an impact weapon? The ASPs only weigh a pound and I am ignorant as to how you can extract that much power from such a light object.

Also, I was browsing the options for ASPs, and saw a bunch of stuff like "Black Chrome, Aluminum, Airweight, Nickel, Electroless, etc...". What are the differences and which one is the most popular?

Finally, what is the cheapest and most reliable (also the most popular I suppose) site to order one? Thanks.

goodcatjack
September 13, 2002, 02:58 AM
I am nothing even approaching an expert in this area ...

however:

I carry an ASP every day for my less lethal option, as appropriate, and in my opinion I would not recommend doing likewise unless you have some sort of training in its use, or in the use of a similar stick type weapon. it requires practice. you mention its weight; I don't know with which weapon you're familiar, but my baton is a pretty weighty piece of metal and its being described as an impact weapon is fairly descriptive, to me.

I am ignorant as to how you can extract that much power from such a light object.

Force is equivalent to the mass of an object multiplied by its acceleration. IOW, if you swing something fairly light, but in a speedy enough fashion you've created a force worthy of application in the context of achieving mechanical damage. or at least, capable of a good chance of hurting someone to the point that they reconsider their motivation.

But really, I suppose I should first have posed the question, For what purpose are you considering a baton? Have you researched the legal ramifications in your jurisdiction? Do you really think you can assess a desperate situation quickly enough that you know you'll choose the appropriate level of force, as opposed to your (presumably primary weapon) firearm? What are your daily carry requirements? It takes a considerable amount of training to be proficient in its use; is this an option?

I think I'm getting a bit garrulous, here. let us know what you think ...

--alex.

slick slidestop
September 13, 2002, 08:48 PM
Hawk,

You should also be advised that it is against the law to carry an ASP or "baton" in the state of Texas. Not illegal to own, but you can't carry it in public or your car.

Section 46.02 of the Texas Penal code makes it a Class A misdemeanor.

It is enhanced to a 3rd Deg Felony if carried into a place where alcohol is sold.

Gomez
September 13, 2002, 10:10 PM
Hawk:

To answer your questions;

First, the three sections of the ASP all taper towards the front.
When you extend the ASP, forcefully, the front section (the heaviest) moves forward, when it reaches the limit of its travel (it's widest point is at the narrowest point of the second section)
the next section begins its motion and then the third piece does likewise. How tightly the pieces lock open is directly related to how much force is exerted when you open it. When you tap downward on the tip, you are forcing the front section backward, into the second section and so on. I hope this makes sense.

Second, the most popular would have to be the 21-inch steel, black chrome, foam handle model. It's the most prevalent in law enforcement circles, IME. Next most popular would probably be the 26-inch version of the same. The Airweight models use the same steel striking section as the steel batons, but the middle section and handle are aluminum. Airweight models aren't really intended for uniform carry. ASP has offered the silver chrome and electroless nickel finishes for many years for both product lines (steel & airweight). Several years back ASP began marketing the Airweight models only with the electrless nickel finish. This was to alleviate the problem with the Airweights seizing open when opened forcefully. It appears to have solved the problem.

I own several different collaspable batons from many different vendors and, honestly, I think the ASP is one of the best executed designs out there. I carry a 21-inch DuraTec which is ASP-speak for an Airweight, Rubber Handle model. If you are interested in the steel models, I'd suggest looking at the Monadnock AutoLock line which has a very slick, very different locking/unlocking mechanism.

The ASP training program was actually developed by Leo Gaje Jr, many moons ago. Leo Gaje Jr is a phenomenal practicioner and the developer of the Filipino martial art known as Pekiti Tersia Kali. Since you live in the Dallas area, you are lucky because there are many competant practicioners of various FMA all over the city. Check them out, I'm sure that you'll be quite impressed with what you can do with a little one pound stick.

Oh, yeah, the only real difference between an ASP and a wooden stick is that most people won't notice you walking into a movie theater with an ASP tucked in your beltline. A 24-inch piece of "Old hickory" on the other hand.....

Gomez

rlpinca
September 15, 2002, 12:01 AM
The thing that makes asps so effective is that the entire force of the swing is concentrated in a very small area at the end(the little ball thing). I don't have any idea how much force in PSI that comes out to, but I'm sure it's quite a bit. For example, if you hit someone with a bat or club, the force is spread out over several square inches, but the asp puts it all into about 1/2 a square inch. I know the bat is going to have more overall momentum, but let's disregard that for the sake of simplicity. The techniques taught also have quite a bit to do with it.

OutLaw
September 16, 2002, 11:23 AM
I have a 16" ASP,And I find it to be very affective,nd it does deliver a nice blow when a fair amount of force is put behind it.Although the 16" is kinda small,I would recommend the 21".

Shodan
September 16, 2002, 12:10 PM
Other than knowing what they are... I have no experience with ASP's. Can they be used for blocking, locking etc. like a stick or only striking?

Anyone know if they are legal to carry on your person or vehicle in PA? An informed opinion is OK, I'll contact the appropriate agency or office if I decide to ever carry one.

Thanks,

Shodan

krept
September 16, 2002, 01:53 PM
They can be used for practically anything that a stick can.

You can adjust the tension/force required to deploy the baton from the handle. Even after using a moderate amount of force to deploy the baton, it is still relatively difficult to get the baton to retract back into the handle. I say this because some have worried about using the baton in a thrusting motion. If you used the baton in such a manner with enough force so that the baton retracted into the handle #1) the bad guy isn't going to feel very well and #2) in .5 seconds you can redeploy it.

If I deploy it using a significant amount of force, I have to really think about slamming it on the ground to get it to retract again.

Watchman
September 16, 2002, 07:42 PM
Pressure Points...

Its all about pressure points

When you are taught in class about use of the ASP, you are taught to specifically hit the outside of the upper thigh.

A couple of reasons for this...

its a large muscle group with lots of nerves and althought its not easily damaged, it can be quite painful to get hit there in the right spot.

Upon striking the pressure point, some people will buckle at the knees as the opposite leg has what is known as a "sympathetic response" when the other leg gets hit.

Yeah I know it sounds crazy, I didnt belieive it ethier till I got popped with an ASP. Now I beleive...

It will bruise, buit generally pain is only felt for a few days. It heals fairly quickly.

The ASP is quick. Its hard to block with an hand or an arm, and ifyou do happen to block it , it will hurt and iif a pressure point is hit in the arm it will make it totally numb.

goodcatjack
September 17, 2002, 12:35 AM
They can be used for practically anything that a stick can.

I agree 100%. however, an ASP and, say, a rattan stick are definitely different creatures. personally, I was reminded of the difference between racquetball and tennis: one's grip and swing are quite different. racquetball needs whippy wrists and tennis needs long, supported swings with follow through. the ASP (at least my model) has a momentum that must be accounted and adjusted for. after a bit of spirited practice with mine, I can feel the tightness and ache in the muscles of my inner forearm, from gripping and managing the weight.

just for funsies, my brother and I occassionally spar (carefully!) with our ASPs and let me tell you, you know it when you're hit. man, do you ever. those bruises just flower up. this has been my experience; YMMV.

--best regards,

alex.

krept
September 17, 2002, 04:19 PM
Whoa, sparring with those ASPs must be pretty hardcore.

I talked to a fellow that trained FMA under Inosanto and happened to know the Dog Brothers. He said that they train with rattan for a reason - it's light, fast and hurts. He said they don't train with the denser woods like ebony because people could get hurt - very badly.

I use the ASP frequently to knock on my shins to toughen them up while watching sports and I absolutely would NOT like to get hit with one if swung w/bad intentions behind it.

mons-meg
September 18, 2002, 12:07 AM
I think rattan is used more for traditional purposes than anything else. Rattan was a readily available natural wood to the islanders. If they had oak or maple trees in abundance on Mindanao, I'm sure they would have used oak and maple. ;)

Shodan
September 18, 2002, 08:33 AM
Part of the reason to use rattan is that it won't break like a hardwood because of it's fibrous nature. I'm sure the Filipinos appreciate this when they have to use their sticks for real, and it sure is a plus for practice.

Shodan

braindead0
September 18, 2002, 11:23 AM
Any suggestions for where to purchase an ASP on-line? I think I may have a local place were I could buy one as well, but the local folks don't have very good prices.

I checked my states code (Ohio), couldn't find any mention of club, baton, billyclub, nightstick or in fact any weapon references that went beyond firearms and 'dangerous ordnance'.. So I think Ohio is safe..

ThePatriot29
September 18, 2002, 02:31 PM
VA law prohibits blackjacks. I doubt this would apply to an Asp, but does anyone have an opinion on this?

ThePatriot29
September 18, 2002, 02:35 PM
From the VA Code:

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation,... (ii) ...spring stick... or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

"Spring stick" means a spring-loaded metal stick activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon to several times its original length.

An Asp is not a spring stick, since it is manually operated rather than mechanically through a spring and button. However, would this be construed as a "weapon of like kind." I'd think that logically it would not, much like a manual operating Colt M16 knife with thumb stud would be different than a similar knife that was a switchblade. Does anyone know if this is the case, or if Asps are taboo in VA?

nascarnhlnra
September 18, 2002, 05:19 PM
braindeado try this www.tactgear.com/asp_batons.htm I just ordered the black chrome 16" model for an additional C.C.W.

Gomez
September 18, 2002, 08:44 PM
Watchman:

It sounds like the training that you received was the PPCT Collaspible Baton course. The PPCT program is not an ASP-specific training program (you can take the PPCT course with any brand expandable/collaspible baton). PPCT teaches targeting nerve clusters in the limbs. The ASP Basic Course, which is brand specific to ASP products, doesn't teach such targeting.

ASP is the odd-duck with their training program being authorized only for ASP products. Both PPCT and Monadnock will allow any expandable baton to be used in their programs and since when you attend the 40hr PPCT Defensive Tactics Instructor course, you get certified as a PPCT Collaspible Baton Instructor, also, most agencies that use PPCT as a DT program use their baton program also.

Gomez

David Park
September 18, 2002, 09:08 PM
ThePatriot29, as far as I know, ASPs are legal to carry in VA. I have a 21" electroless ASP and the Tactical Baton training tapes from Paladin Press, and the tapes are very good (although I rarely practice since I rarely carry). First-hand training would be better.

Gomez
September 19, 2002, 10:40 AM
David:

Are you refering to the Tactical Baton tapes that Kelly Worden did through Paladin? If so, those are very good tapes. Another excellant source for collaspible baton training tapes are Jim Grover/Kelly McCann, also from Paladin. I reccomend Grover's Combatives series over his Baton series, because he covers about 98% of the baton stuff on his Baton series in his Combatives series and he goes into more detail on some of the baton stuff in the Combatives series and he covers unarmed skills and more on the Combatives series. The Combatives series is three tapes vs his baton set (two tapes) and the cost is about the same, as I recall.

Gomez