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View Full Version : Ayoob and Chapman Flashlight Techniques with Surefire Lights


Anthony
September 9, 2002, 10:30 PM
Hello Everyone,

I've had a problem for years I have never been able to solve. Perhaps you guys (and gals) can help me.

I LOVE Surefire lights and carry a 6P, 9P, or newer M-2 daily. As a result my flashlight/gun technique is limited to Harries, but I really prefer the Chapman and Ayoob methods. These techniques require a flashlight with a Maglite style push button to be successful...at least that is what I have thought all this time. The thing is I hate Maglites once I got used to the beautiful beam the Surefire provides.

Does anyone know of a way to perform the Ayoob and Chapman techniques using the tailcap switch equipped Surefire tactical lights?

Before anyone suggests it, I have repeatedly tried the Rogers technique with the modified Surefires and it doesn't work for me. I'm also not very interested in changing brands of lights. I've had to many good moments with the Surefire to part with it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

- Anthony

Mannlicher
September 11, 2002, 07:05 PM
Flashlight technique? Named after the people who first wrote about them? Pardon while I roll around the floor laughing.

Sam's technique: keep flashlight in pocket, shoot bad guy, run like hell.

hahahahahahaha

KSFreeman
September 11, 2002, 07:48 PM
Mannlicher, at least we hope it was the bad guy and not the neighbor's drunken 15 year old daughter. Otherwise the "hahahaha" will be "ahahahah" in the showers at DOC if we violate Rule #4!:D

Anthony, no the techniques you describe do not require a side switch. The are often illustrated with one as they were "developed" before Surefire. However, they can be manipulated with any of the torches you have.

Anthony
September 12, 2002, 09:57 AM
Thanks KS,

Can you tell me the best way to do these techniques without a side switch on the flashlight?

- Anthony

buzz_knox
September 12, 2002, 10:30 AM
You'll find that most of those who develop and/or popularize a technique don't name it after themselves, it's named after them by others. Ayoob calls most of what he comes up with either Stressfire (for shooting techniques), LFI (for retention/disarms/etc), or after what they are (such as the wedge hold). I'm pretty sure Chapman never called his stance the "Chapman."

KSFreeman
September 13, 2002, 07:03 AM
Sure, Anthony, put your torch in your support hand between your index and driving finger. Activate your torch with your thumb on the tail cap.

tackdrivr
September 13, 2002, 05:36 PM
Here's some techniques that maybe helpful.


http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72722

Mannlicher
September 22, 2002, 04:41 PM
KS Freeman, you miss the point as usual. The laughter comes at naming "flashlight techniques' after people. Despite your concern for the neighbors drunken 15 year old daughter, I still say flashlights are a dumb idea in a shooting situation. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

Gomez
September 23, 2002, 08:44 AM
Erick:

The "Ayoob" is a modified "Chapman" where you angle the light up slightly so as to catch the bad guy in the face with the light. As has been mentioned these techniques were developed back in the old (Kel-Lite) days, long before the advent of the truly high intensity flashlight. Both the Ayoob and Chapmann allowed you to get more of your hands on the gun, particularly a revolver, than when using the Harries.

I have to agree with you on light positions. The two that I use are Harries and modified FBI (where the light is posted at your offside shoulder rather than extended away from the body). I first learned of the modified FBI from someone who had been to training with the old Combative Concepts organization (which became the SureFire Institute and is now under another name. Ken Good, et al.) and it has become my default light position.

KSFreeman
September 23, 2002, 12:22 PM
Erick, a lot does depend on paw size, but Uncle Mike's technique makes me tired (office weenie) and I don't like it for going left. I like having both hands on the weapon as I am a lousy shot and need all the help I can get. YMMV.

Mannlicher, sorry about missing the point. I like to see what I am shooting at. It's only polite and I may not need to shoot and if I can prevent filling out forms, I will.:)

Navy joe
September 23, 2002, 03:18 PM
With a M3 Handheld I usually use the cigar type hold with the weak side wrist locked under and on the outside of the strong hand. Rogers technique?

Another one i've tried lately is indexing off of my weak side cheek. (facial cheek) The heel of my hand at the base of my thumb indexes on the jawbone while the second segment of my index finger lays into my cheekbone. Points really nice for me and the tailcap is easy to operate. Having a lanyard like the M3 does is a must, you can drop the light to operate the slide or change mags and then just whip it back into your hand.

I usually don't think much of pistol mounted lights, but could see the utility of a shotgun mounted lamp. In any case I don't make blanket statements about how dumb lights are. I guess some of us want to ID what we are going to shoot or even use the light to end a possible shoot. Others it appear want to blaze at any shadow that moves. Try it before you call it dumb, good lights are a force option.

pbarrick
October 2, 2002, 01:23 PM
I prefer the modified FBI position for the flashlight. This does mean shooting the firearm one-handed but it also means that you get to practice this critical skill at the same time you're on the range practicing your flashlight technique.

The Ayoob technique works well for a MagLite or other side-mounted switch lighting system. I'm not so comfortable or adept with the Rogers technique but a SureFire 6Z would be warranted if it gave you a partial two-handed grip on the firearm and you were comfortable with that technique.

As for firearms and flashlights being mutually exclusive. I disagree. The sun goes up and comes down each day, so there is a good chance that you will need a high-powered, compact flashlight (like the SureFire E2 Executive).

Identifying a threat before you engage it is a critical skill and the fourth rule of gunhandling (know your target and what's beyond). It also functions as a force option in less than full daylight.

fastbolt
October 2, 2002, 04:12 PM
Aside from the technological improvements ... these issues have remained with us since we started carrying torches and were hitting others over the heads with clubs ...

If you want to see things from both sides, consider having someone shine the lights you're carrying at you, from all kinds of differents angles, positions, different conditions of darkness and dim light, etc. It's amazing how different things appear from the other end.

When it comes to the various techniques ... Well, I doubt you'll find any ONE particular method that suits your needs in ALL situations. Be versed in a couple of them, at least. Practice them with your non-dominant flashlight hand, as well ... if only to give your brain a chance to process the physical motions from a different perspective, if nothing else ...

Be very careful if you employ the "syringe" technique, or any variation, as it's possible for one of your flashlight-hand fingers to affect your trigger finger.

Holding the flashlight "back" against the forward pressure you're exerting against the switch, is something that can be done wrong if you're not paying attention to the technique. Life & death situation, stress, fight-or-flight adrenaline dump ... imagine the distractions ...

Either your flashlight-hand fingers, or the base of the flashlight itself, is NOT something you want to exert force rearward against your trigger finger. And even if you're practicing proper weapon discipline and skill, and have your trigger finger off the trigger and outside of the trigger guard ... you still don't want a flashlight-hand finger to find your trigger ...

Fine motor skills diminish under stress, and gross motor skills are powered by large muscle groups, suddenly powered by adrenaline ... Things you wouldn't believe could happen in normal circumstances have a way of causing us problems when life threatening situations come calling ...

I've used a flashlight in more ways than I can count, or even remember, during my 20+ year career. Different flashlights, different sizes, different styles of flashlight body & switch operation ... You have to practice with them to successully incorporate them into your weapons skills, no matter which method(s) you choose.

It sounds as if you've already determined which light style you like ... so start experimenting with your light ... batteries are inexpensive compared to the cost of inadequate skills ... and learn ALL the various ways you can utilize your light. I'd like to repeat that it helps to learn what it's like to be on the other end of it, too.

Take it to the range, but ONLY after you've become accustomed to employing properly it, so you won't become distracted by a flashlight handling thought while handling a loaded weapon ... and BE CAREFUL if you practice during live fire.

Who's to say you won't develop a technique that works better for you ... or even the rest of us ... than all of the "name brand" variations that have been passed around? How do you think these variations were developed in the first place?

Granted, maybe not likely, but not impossible, either ... ;)

Practice well.

Mute
October 23, 2002, 06:28 PM
FYI regarding your question about these techniques with a flashlight that doesn't have a side switch.

The Surefire series of flashlight can be activated by putting pressure to the side of the tail cap. I believe this would make them usable with the Ayoob or Chapman methods.