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Uncle Ethan
September 9, 2002, 01:42 PM
Howdy-I shoot a High wall in .40-65 and a Sharps in 45-90. I heard about non-corrosive black powder, and I read about Golden powder, but that it was too hydroscopic. I was advised to check out 777 smokeless, but I wondered if anyone here knew of a source for non corrosive black powder that doesn't require the cleaning that the genuine article does. Thks, Ethan

BenW
September 9, 2002, 03:53 PM
Uncle Ethan -- I know, I know... I already replied on this on the other forum.:) But I was just curious as to your cleaning method. I use the Windex / Crisco treatment and have to say I take less time cleaning my 1851 Navy (with no corrosion problems) than I do one of my modern single actions.

Of course I'll do anything for the smell of BP in the morning.:D

Uncle Ethan
September 9, 2002, 04:28 PM
I guess you will have to clue me in to the windex/crisco method. I never heard of it. With both my rifles [especially the Shilo Gemmer] I remove the fore end and use soap and HOT water to first clean the outside of the barrel and as much of the action as I can without screwing up the wood, then I emmerse the muzzle end into the pan and draw up the soapy water into the barrel until clean, changing water at least once. Then I go to work on the action, then I oil everything and reassemble. With the Gemmer it only involves the two pins. However, if I had non corrosive, then I wouldn't worry so much.

Alex Johnson
September 9, 2002, 04:34 PM
Tripple 7 is not non-corrosive, it is easier cleaning than Pyrodex and less fowling, but it still needs to be cleaned after use. I've heard powders like Black Canyon and Cleanshot are non-corrosive but I've never given them a trial in that respect. I'm a firm beleiver in cleaning any gun after shooting it, even smokeless ones, why take a chance on damaging one, there expensive.

jjmorgan64
September 9, 2002, 08:06 PM
I've never been the most traditional of BP shooters, I have used both Clean shot and Clear shot with good results, neither is corrosive at all, I have let a 1858 remington sit for quite a while without a cleaning, monitering it for any rust, and none appeared.

I do prefer Clean shot, as it is a little easier to work with (Large grey grains),

Most of this has been in BP revolvers, and in an old 44 WCF Colt Lightning

As was stated above 777 is corrosive, it is basically a hotter burning pyrodex.

BenW
September 9, 2002, 08:29 PM
Uncle Ethan,

I learned this on one of the traditional muzzleloader sites. Instead of cleaning in hot water, run a windex soaked (the non-ammonia kind) patch down the barrel. My barrel comes out crystal clean after swabbing twice with windex, then a dry patch or two. I also do a quick rubdown with windex on all exposed metal surfaces and follow immediately with a dry patch. I then lube everything up with plain old crisco. Never have rust film or any other type of corrosion. The windex is a truly amazing BP cleaner you have to try to believe. I just use the crisco cuz it's cheap. You can replace it with wonder lube or whatever, though a lot of people complain about wonder lube "residue."

Uncle Ethan
September 9, 2002, 09:35 PM
Well this has been a learning experience. Thks to all for the help. I sure didn't get these answers at the other forum. Does Clean shot come with loading data, or is it by volume like black powder? :cool:

Nodakmarine
September 9, 2002, 10:50 PM
Really all you have to do is just season the metal that is exposed to the residue. Get yourself some bore butter and lube your cleaned, oil-less rifle with bore butter. You want to do it when the metal is hot like after cleaning it with soap and HOT water or another trick is to leave it in the truck in direct sunlight on a hot summer day. That'll heat her up pretty good. ;) But after that fire it a little and the black powder combined with the heat from firing will bake that bore butter right into the pores of the metal sort of like seasoning a cast iron skillet. One thing to watch out for is when you clean it, don't use any petroleum based chemicals like Hoppe's black powder bore solvent that has kerosene in it. You'll remove the seasoning if you use that kind of stuff. I prefer to use Thompson's #13 black powder bore cleaner. This stuff is natural and non-toxic (though I still wouldn't suggest a taste test) and because of it's natural ingredients, it can be used on a seasoned firearm and not remove the seasoning that has built up on it.
Now keep in mind that this isn't a get-out-of-cleaning pass and you will still have to clean your weapons after firing black or any of the substitutes in them but it does give you a longer time window to get them cleaned without having to worry as soon about rust begining to form.

Jim Watson
September 10, 2002, 09:05 AM
I am not a black powder shooter. I don't even fool with the fake substitutes except for an occasional fling, as I recently described for 777. But I have seen the big boys in action. Few if any of them wash their guns. Most clean as BenW described, but they tend to use higher tech lubes than Crisco, Bore Butter is popular.

Me, I load my Highwall, '86, '92, and SAA with that newfangled stuff.

Uncle Ethan
September 10, 2002, 09:29 AM
What do you use as data to make up a load? What do you use as case filler, cornmeal?

Jim Watson
September 10, 2002, 11:51 AM
I use published data for smokeless powder. Accurate Arms XMP 5744 is made for reduced loads and works nearly as well as claimed.

Their free literature has loads for your calibers and mine.

I do not use a filler.

My only use for these guns is CAS and antique plinking so my accuracy requirements are not real tight.

From what I have seen, to get the very best out of your .40-65 and .45-90 (or my .38-55, etc.) will call for casting bullets with very close quality control. Which I have always been too lazy for, but my best bullet sources are out of business, one deceased. And competition rules specify black or Pyrodex. I don't know if any of the newer fakes are allowed, but everybody I know uses black.

If you can get to a BPCR target or metallic silhouette match you will see a lot of the best known techniques in loading, shooting, and cleaning.

Uncle Ethan
September 10, 2002, 05:30 PM
I don't shoot in matches, and my usage is mostly targets for practice, and then I intend to use them for hunting. I also have a half magazine 86 Winchester in 45-70. I agree about bullets, and I cast hard lead, and then swage them to the correct diameter. I am learning paper wrapping also. I have seen some of the bulk smokeless that is hard to overload when substituting for BP, but it has the potential for problems that black powder doesn't. Maybe I'll try that Clean Shot and see how it works. I hope seasoning my Shilo doesn't hurt it. They are hard come by.

jjmorgan64
September 10, 2002, 07:02 PM
Uncle Ethan

Yes Clean shot loads volume for volume with BP, The weight is nowhere close, so make sure it is done by volume.

FWIW I once ordered some very exspensive BP 44-40 ammo and it came loaded with clean shot, once you see it you can't mistake it for any other powder.

Give it a try, I really like the stuff.

Uncle Ethan
September 10, 2002, 07:59 PM
thks for the info- I will try it. I can just load my cases full same as black powder, but it is non-corrosive?

jjmorgan64
September 10, 2002, 08:20 PM
Yup

TBAUS
September 12, 2002, 10:50 PM
Who makes Cleanshot and Clearshot? Is it hard to find? Do they make different granulations? ( e.g. 2f, fff, etc.) I've shot a lot of black powder, but dropped out of organized shoots 9, 10 years ago. I haven't heard of a volume for volume substitute that is non-corrosive. I would like to learn more about it and try it. Thanks in advance for any info...

jjmorgan64
September 13, 2002, 06:53 AM
Clearshot is Goex
http://www.goexpowder.com/

It is available in FFG, FFFG, and FFFFG


Cleanshot is it's own company.
http://cleanshot.com/

I believe it is only available in FFG but don't quote me on that, the cleanshot grains are very large, I don't know if grain size makes much of a dfifference with it.???
From there website.
DO NOT USE LUBES, LUBED PATCHES, OR OILS WITH ANY CLEAN SHOTâ„¢ PRODUCTS. NO NEED FOR CLEANERS OR SOLVENTS BETWEEN SHOTS.

Gewehr98
September 13, 2002, 10:48 PM
For my Ruger #1 blackpowder .45-70 loads, I put 5.0 grains of WW231 into the case first, then I droptube the main FFg charge, before the Wonder Wad and Crisco-lubed 405gr cast bullet. Still smokes like a chimney when I touch it off, but the barrel is nice and clean after each shot. I see that they're now allowing these duplex loads in some of the blackpowder competitions, not too shabby!;)

Uncle Ethan
October 6, 2002, 01:02 PM
How safe is a duplex load for older firearms? I have an early Highwall, as well as two CH Armory "improved" highwalls I don't know the strength of, plus a 1974 Sharps sporting rifle and a Shilo I want to shoot. Would a duplex load be safe?

TBAUS
October 6, 2002, 11:35 PM
I shoot original trap door Springfields. Trap-doors are not known for their strength. I sometimes shoot dublex loads in these. It would be best to shoot well researched and documented duplex loads. You also have to make sure the modern powder does not migrate through the black powder. J.S. and Pat Wolf wrote a book entitled "Loading Cartridges For the Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine". In the book, the author has several duplex loads with IMR 4759 as a the igniter charge. I would recommend this or some other publication as a source of information on duplex loads.

Iggy
October 8, 2002, 07:40 PM
I agree with Nodakmarine about Bore butter.. It is good stuff... season the barrel etc.. Longer between cleanings.. use it for cleaning, and then use it as a rust preventative..

I guess I am old fashioned.. I still use BP..

I use a Shiloh and Trapdoor.. with many different loads..

I use a duplex load and find that it blows all of black powder "soot" out of the barrel and you can do like the pink bunny and just keep shooting and shooting

I also use paper patch bullets and a paper wad and grease wad over the powder..

Most fun is shooting at a full size iron buffalo at a 1000 yds..

First time I tried I was in a sitting postion.. Fired.. waited.. took rifle from shoulder and into my lap.. thought I had missed... Wong!!!

Timed the next one.. 7 seconds from firing to hearing the gong..


Use 500 grners in the Trapdoor and 530 paper patches in the Shiloh.. A feller called them flying telephone poles..

Love that black powder... *G*