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gunorthopod
September 5, 2002, 01:54 AM
I just got my 16 inch Asp lightweight baton.What a great piece of defensive equipment this is ! A great confidence builder..easy to carry,fast to deploy,and in my hands,better than a knife.What say you?

Hkmp5sd
September 5, 2002, 05:39 AM
I keep one of the telescoping ASP batons in the door pocket of my car. It is another usefully option when faced with a self defense incident. I don't carry one on my person because I'm already toting a gun, spare magazine and knife. Any more weight and I would have to wear suspenders.

rennaissancemann
September 5, 2002, 08:52 AM
I'm in total agreement. The ASP is an excellent piece of kit.


Regards

mons-meg
September 5, 2002, 10:35 AM
I have been wondering about the legality of pocket carry. I agree that it would be preferable to a knife in many situations, and I can't find anything in the Oklahoma statutes that would seem to prevent it...has anyone run into problems?

Blackhawk
September 5, 2002, 11:38 AM
Good question. Clubs and bats are no-nos because they're "lethal" weapons, but it seems a stretch to classify a 17 ounce baton as a lethal weapon. More like a rider's crop, I'd think. But I don't KNOW....

As juveniles way back when, we used to carry choker chains for large dogs to be used as stinging deterrents to knife attacks, and I don't recall anybody getting excited about them....

krept
September 5, 2002, 11:41 AM
Have a 16" ASP and love it. I decided to go the normal heavier model... prefer the extra momentum, plus botachtactical had it on sale for $29 (still might?).

Great piece of equipment IMO.

Hard Ball
September 5, 2002, 01:15 PM
I certainly agree that ASP batons are excellent deffensive equipment. I wonder if they are legal in all 50 states. Is there any source giving information on their legal status in individual states?:confused:

imadork
September 5, 2002, 05:32 PM
in my state (CA), any impact type weapon is illegal to possess, believe it or not. A billy, sap, sandbag/blackjack, nunchaku, metal knuckle, shobi-zue, shuriken, and sword cane are among the prohibited items. A billy includes a baton like the ASP, or even a baseball bat that's been cut down and taped. Unfortunately, this precludes me from walking around with my ASP. Yet another mindless statute here that helps no one.

gunorthopod
September 5, 2002, 10:03 PM
Asps are illegal for civilian carry in CA and NY.Suppliers within those states will only sell to L.E. or people who have baton licenses.No problem buying from out of state sources who issue the caveat that the buyer is responsible for obeying applicable state laws.I bought mine from an out of state supplier.

What a stupidly conceived bull**** law !!

DEPUTY
September 6, 2002, 01:12 AM
ASP BATONS! are illegal in michigan for civilian carry! and in most other staes they are classed under the bat, blugeon, stick laws! and are very much capabale of killing! they require some training to deploy and collaspe in the proper method! also lots of special strikes to motor nerve points! what is funny is you can get a permit to carry a gun but not a asp! go figure

Hkmp5sd
September 6, 2002, 03:13 AM
what is funny is you can get a permit to carry a gun but not a asp! go figure

That's why I really like Florida's CCW license. It is a license to carry a concealed "weapon or firearm."

yorec
September 6, 2002, 06:44 AM
Asps are great when used effectively, but if not - they can be quite ineffective. Get some of that O, so important, minor training already mentioned.

Blackhawk, could the reason no one made a fuss over the dog chokers be that no one knew you guys had them? Concealed means concealed... :)

Sierra1
September 6, 2002, 08:53 AM
I carried the ASP baton for over 2 years when I worked for LAPD and had to use it several times. As was mentioned it is great as far as weight is concerned and ease of presentation, however, even with proper training the ASP simply is not as potent as a PR-24 when comparing impact weapons, although for concealed carry it would be rather difficult to hide a PR-24, even the collapsible.

As far as being able to own an ASP in CA, like so many other things in this state, you can own one, you can have it in your own, but you can not be caught on the street with it.

My .02

AAshooter
September 6, 2002, 09:46 AM
I know ASP's are generally illegal for civilian carry in California. Some states require training and a license before you can possess/carry an ASP. Is that the case in California or are you just SOL?

Sierra1
September 6, 2002, 01:38 PM
My understanding is that ASP's are for military and police only, I don't think that security companies have been given the option of licensing guards to carry them or not (if anyone out there works security let me know if you have that option or not). But no (and I hate using this word) "civillian" is to possess one while out on the streets.

Blackhawk
September 6, 2002, 03:33 PM
Blackhawk, could the reason no one made a fuss over the dog chokers be that no one knew you guys had them? There was nothing at all illegal about them. You could buy them at any place that sold pet supplies. There was no special effort made to conceal them either. In fact there was a deterrent factor when others knew you had one.

imadork
September 6, 2002, 07:17 PM
CA Penal Code
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable
firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a
firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which
contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or
carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst
trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any
short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any
leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol,
any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge
knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice
handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon
of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy,
sandclub, sap, or sandbag.
[...]

Hkmp5sd
September 6, 2002, 08:25 PM
CA Penal Code


Geeze, why does anyone live in California?

imadork
September 7, 2002, 03:04 AM
Geeze, why does anyone live in California?

Sometimes, I wonder that myself. The best answer I can come up with is that I was born and raised here. It has a great coastal feeling and some magnificent scenery. The unfortunate gun control situation and the expanding urban sprawl are some of the few major problems I can think of.

krept
September 7, 2002, 11:41 AM
CA Penal Code
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:

Freaky statement!

"any camouflaging firearm container"

"any unconventional pistol,"

"metal military practice
handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade" (lol)

"weapon
of the kind commonly known as a... sandbag"

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

imadork
September 7, 2002, 08:25 PM
On a high note, the case Doe v. City and County of San Francisco-- 136 Cal.App.3d 509 (1982)-- held that a city ordinance banning handgun possession was illegal under state constitution. A great day for pistol and revolver owners everywhere, as no city in the state may now have such an ordinance. A state proposition banning handguns failed by 66% margin in 1982 also.

camoflauging firearm container = e.g. a belt buckle or wallet cover for a derringer, or the briefcase HK94.
unconventional pistol = smoothbore pistol (i.e. a shotgun of pistol size or design)
sandbag = a blackjack, a sock with a billiard ball in it, etc.
billy = baton, chopped baseball bat, truncheon

Also illegal to possess ballistic knives, flamethrowers, machine guns, undetectable knives, undetectable firearms, tracer ammo (except for shotgun tracer ammo), incendiary or explosive ammo, any ammo containing a flechette dart, certain types of exotic shotgun ammo.
Some cities have ordinances against carrying knives over 3" in public.
Basically, they pass these laws with the intent of discretionary enforcement; they could care less whether you or I have them, but they use these rules to disarm gangs and any suspicious people particularly in urban areas. It still sucks to know that technically I'm a criminal though. Guilty! ;-)

ronin308
September 7, 2002, 09:04 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't carry an ASP in Pennsylvania as well. I've heard that from numerous sources, but I haven't checked because I don't visit there often enough to worry about it.

KPS
September 8, 2002, 12:52 PM
I bought an ASP from an out of state company because I believe they are illegal here(at least w/o training).I carried it around all the time but it did get too heavy with that and my handgun.The ASP is also a lethal weapon so if stuck in the position, I would rather draw the handgun.The ASP limits you to striking a BG's thighs and maybe upper arms.Both of which may not stop them.I've since switched to carrying Fox spray to keep my distance from an attack and lighten my carry load.

Blackhawk
September 8, 2002, 01:41 PM
The ASP is also a lethal weapon Maybe I just don't have the proper amount of respect for them. How are they "lethal weapons" exactly?

They don't exactly seem like they're skull crackers or anything compared to, say, a baseball bat. They seem more like high tech sticks.

imadork
September 8, 2002, 04:45 PM
They are definitely skull crackers. The packaging contains a leaflet that warns in big bold letters and a diagram not to use the baton on a subject's head, neck, or face because it could result in serious injury or death. The baton is really solid, and it has a solid steel "nub" type thing on the end that could really hurt someone. Once you try one of these on a coconut (don't ask) or a car door, you'll see what I mean.

tommygun45
September 8, 2002, 05:25 PM
They don't exactly seem like they're skull crackers or anything
Take this for what it's worth, A good friend was working an "unarmed" security job watching a half million per unit subdivison under constructon. One fine night His partner is out on a round and stumbles in to two guys stealing building materials. The two chuckle heads go from petty larceny to assault when they jumped my friends partner. Long story short The security guard pulls his ASP and WHACK, WHACK down go two bad guys, one with a skull fracture. A nice round one about the size and shape of the little nob on the tip of an ASP. My friend quit that gig a few short days later.

Blackhawk
September 8, 2002, 05:46 PM
Thanks, guys!

That all makes perfect sense. Also seems that it would be very effective in whacking joints, hands, and whatever could use it. Also seems that a relatively heavy tip on a rigid shaft would be easily directed and accelerated by quick wrist action. No wonder ROTL carried one.... :D

Hayden
September 10, 2002, 03:07 PM
"I don't think that security companies have been given the option of licensing guards to carry them or not (if anyone out there works security let me know if you have that option or not)."

A few that I work with carry them here in TN.
Seems like a good idea to have another less than lethal force option. FWIW a good cs/oc spray is also something to look into.

regards

Gomez
September 13, 2002, 10:24 PM
Generally speaking, anytime you carry a club, bat, stick, and whack someone about the head and shoulders with it, it's going to be considered "lethal force". The way law enforcement can get aways with carrying a stick and whacking people with it, is by having "appropriate training" which documents how to use the stick as a "less lethal" tool. ASP does this by structuring their program around the concept of "striking to the center of mass of the offending appendage" and speciffcly avoiding strikes to the head/neck area UNLESS the situation ahs evolved into a lethal force situation, then, of course, it's fair game. The ASP program teaches two conceptual angles which were drawn from the Filipino martial arts. (Angle 1 & 2 in alot of systems, Downward 45 Left and Downward 45 Right). PPCT accomplishes the same goal by teaching strikes to motor points/nerve clusters in the limbs. Monadnock teaches horizontal sriking drawn from Asian martial arts.

A quick and dirty introduction to how to legally use a baton can often be gotten by finding out who provides training for your local security companies. If security guards in your state can be certiifed to carry an ASP, most of those trainers with let Joe Citizen take the same class for the same fee (usually pretty cheap. I paid $40 when I was living in Eugene, OR for my first ASP certification.) For more extensive training, look around and see if anyone is teaching Filipino martial arts in your area.

And, then, of course, there's always professional training geared towards the armed citizen, such as offered by Options for Personal Security and Insights Training Center.


Gomez

pbarrick
September 30, 2002, 02:42 PM
The ASP baton, especially the airweight models, are excellent tools. The Angle 1 and Angle 2 of the ASP curriculum is a viable system that's simple to use under stress and easy to retain.

Training with the tools you plan to carry is very important. If you're going to follow Teddy Roosevelt's advice and carry a big [ASP baton], it helps to know how to swing it efficiently.

Professional training is another important aspect. It helps to be able to articulate in a court of law that you weren't whacking the guy in the knee but aiming for his common peroneal nerve when he moved toward you and got whacked in the knee.

In the words of my esteemed colleague, Mr. Gomez, "And, then, of course, there's always professional training geared towards the armed citizen, such as offered by Options for Personal Security and Insights Training Center."

Jim Grover's Combatives series is another good source of information on how to utilize a collapsible baton. Also, Kelly Worden's Tactical Baton video set and his Connecting the Systems videos are good to round out your knowledge of stick applications.

fastbolt
September 30, 2002, 08:03 PM
While I keep a short ASP in the trunk of my work car, I seldom carry it anymore. I just don't like it. Period. If I want to use a baton, I'd much rather use my wooden baton, as it's capable of many more strikes, blocks, immobilizations, etc ...

The limitations of ASP use ... to me ... is that it's primarily intended for use as either an unextended yawara stick-type, less-than-lethal weapon ... or, as an extended striking weapon useful primarily in a manner which relies exclusively on "tip speed" and tip impact focus.

While I seldom lack something capable of being employed as a yawara-type defensive instrument ... they make some neat pocket-sized lights strong enough to double for this, after all ... the ASP isn't balanced as well as it might be for this role.

While I was never a fan of the tonfa for L/E use, many agencies adapted a modified tonfa design, later named the PR-24, quite happily to their needs, and some few agencies even employed nunchaku. The last time I carried a nunchaku, they were years away from being illegal in this state, and I primarily carried them in rural recreation & hiking areas ... more for the constant opportunity to practice away from the dojo, than for any real defensive use. It annoyed me when they made them illegal outside my house or my dojo, but that's all ...

While I personally couldn't care less if an otherwise law-abiding citizen in CA carried an ASP for defense, the legislature has decreed they are dangerous weapons, and feels otherwise ... so the law prohibits this practice by "civilians". If you use it, while carrying it illegally, you're not only going to possibly face the issue of being made to appear prepared to "kill" someone by deliberately and feloniously carrying a prohibited dangerous weapon in public ... but you're going to face the risk of losing your right to possess ALL weapons in the future, depending on your conviction and sentence.

I'm sorry that I don't like the ASP, but that I'm allowed to carry it, and am issued one ... while those of you not in L/E that DO like it, can't carry one ... but I didn't make the laws.

Drjones
October 1, 2002, 12:41 AM
What say you?

I say that they are VERY cool, very fun, and very effective weapons.

HOWEVER, you live in CA also, I see. Carrying such a device on your person is a FELONY. Carrying a concealed firearm without a permit is a MISDEMEANOR. They do have the option of charging it as a felony, but that is not usually the case. (Provided you don't have any priors and such)

That said, I say ditch the baton and keep totin' (or START) totin' your GUN! :D

pbarrick
October 4, 2002, 11:10 AM
Unless we're talking about the 16" ASP models (which don't feel quite like a stick in the hand), ASPs are just collapsible sticks. They give the same benefit as a comparably-sized wooden stick with less of a tendency to break and the added benefit of collapsing for carry.

As a civilian, I wouldn't worry about restraint techniques. Striking is what a stick is best used for in a self-defense situation. Grappling also ties me up with one person when the likelihood of having to strike someone else quickly (multiple attackers) is great.

ASPs are useful tools and they work well...

igor
October 7, 2002, 04:21 AM
... the ASPs belong to the "dangerous edged (!) weapons" category (as a piece of hollow metal = pipe). No-no for concealed carry: but for LEOs and, since new private security branch legislation was passed last Tuesday, legal for trained security personnel as well. I'm getting one for my car door pocket... the tonfa takes too much space anyway.

BTW, I used to have a collapsible Monadnock PR-24 and broke the damn thing in two _practicing_. Stay away from them.

krept
October 7, 2002, 12:06 PM
No kidding, can you give details? I thought that Monadnocks were at LEAST as strong as the ASPs.

old_yout
October 7, 2002, 05:31 PM
I've never really worried about carrying mine around. Way I see it, and I've had some corroborration by the guys at the range, if what I'm doing is legal then nobody's going to bother too much about it.

Drjones
October 7, 2002, 11:12 PM
The PR-24 is nothing like an ASP. The PR-24 is the standard cop baton you see all the cops with; the one with the perpendicular handle. It is NOT a collapsible. Though they do make collapsible 24's.

All collapsible batons are steel, save for the ASP "airweights" which have at least one shaft that is aluminum.

I have heard of a lot of bent ASP's, none with the Monadnocks. Plus they have the cool "Autolock" which allows you to collapse the baton with the push of a button! :D

igor
October 8, 2002, 05:06 AM
... that I broke was a collapsible PR-24 with the crutch lock. Synthetic 90 deg handle, metal tube part and synthetic end part. Bad design altogether, the weighting not ideal and yes, the synthetic end snapped in two with a quite normal horizontal thigh/mitt hit.

Don't know if they're still around, I purchased mine in the earlier '90's. The crutch button lock was no good either, the button started eating up the metal around it with just modest practice amounts.

fastbolt
October 8, 2002, 01:25 PM
Hkmp5sd ...

I ask myself why I still live here almost every week. Of course, the primary answer is that this is where my job is, and one of my children are still living, as well as my aging mother ...

Since I'm only a couple of years away from retirement I'm no longer interested in lateraling over to another agency in another state. I just want to retire and get away from here ...

We're seeing more and more of our people retiring and leaving the state, much more than it used to be. Now that the income tax laws were changed, and CA can't still take state tax on your retirement if you live out of state, there's no financial penalty to leave.

It's also amazing how unaware many folks are, even in L/E, of how different our laws are than most anywhere else. In some ways, leaving CA to visit another state can be almost like visiting another country ... but one with more freedoms.

I grew up here in CA, after my parents moved here when I was still a toddler, so I remember how the laws used to be when I was growing up ... which is a far cry from nowadays. When I retire and leave, I'll have spent about 50 years in this state. That's got to be more than enough to get some time off for good behavior ...

Sorry this has nothing to do with the ASP thread, but I felt like answering your rhetorical question ...

eyeballz
October 8, 2002, 02:14 PM
Can these ASP batons be used for anything besides whacking? Such as Holds, armbars, wristlock type stuff?

Gomez
October 8, 2002, 03:44 PM
eyeballz:

Yes, they can. The Monadnock training program goes into their whole control methodologies with their MEB (Monadnock Expandable Baton) course. ASP does not teach or reccomend that impact weapons be used as control devices. I don't either. Sticks are designed for hitting. From a non-leo perspective, I cannot envision a situation where it'd be appropriate for someone to attempt a controlling technique.

eyeballz
October 8, 2002, 04:30 PM
Oh Ok Cool.

mons-meg
October 8, 2002, 05:18 PM
I was taught takedowns and submission locks as part of the single stick curriculum at my Kali school. Even after reaching an "intermediate" level, I would not trust myself to try them. Probably in a real world situation, one should utilize the "largo mano" tachniques of striking at an opponent's hands and wrists. I see the ASP or similar baton excelling in this role, since the heavy, narrow end is likely to fracture bones in the hand, which while certainly not lethal, will mroe than likely make the BG decide to stop trying to stick you with his knife, etc.

krept
October 8, 2002, 09:59 PM
I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that LEO and federal 1811s were being taught wrist locks and joint holds that can turn into projections much like Aikido does. If so, these technically should naturally translate into the same techniques as a jo, for example, right? Not that I espouse them, but imagine if the BG did get ahold of the ASP for some reason and you have a perfect opportunity for a #1 or #2 lock (ikkyo, nikyo? i don remember) or mini projection.

I'm sure there are some creative ways to use the ASP. IIRC, the Gracies have been working with LEOs in California - I'd think that they would realize LEOs frequently find themselves deploying sticks, etc and having them grabbed from them. As a part of retention, let's say that previous experience tells you to go right for rear mount to choke or arm restraint before cuffing. I'm sure the ASP would come in handy then...

Again, I have no idea how they conduct ASP (etc.) training, but if they don't at least try to correlate such techniques or simply focus on the ultra less lethal areas then they are putting themselves to a BIG disadvantage.