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Correia
September 4, 2002, 02:59 PM
I just have to comment on the guy who wrote to Denny about how he was sick of all the nonsense about how it is the shooter and not the gun, about how your brain is your most important piece of gear. He actually said that because he had a $2000 gun he was all set, and didn't need to worry about tactics and such. Or as he so eloquently put it "scurry for cover".

Whoa. :eek:

Is this guy on crack? Please tell me that you guys didn't just make him up to illistrate a point or something? :p

If he is real....

Wow.

"I don't need to practice! I've got a $2000 gun!"

Got news for you buddy. I've seen a $3000 gun's extractor shear off in a match. I have seen 3 different AK47s jam, and it is arguably the worlds most reliable gun. So much for knowing how to clear malfs or transition drills.

I can't even begin to comprehend how anybody could seriously believe that you can PURCHASE skill.

Denny, maybe we should invite him out for our next 3 gun match? I would love to shoot in his squad. All 3 of my guns cost less than his pistol. :) I'm curious to see just how much skill he has bought.

Denny Hansen
September 4, 2002, 03:44 PM
The guy's entitled to his opinion. I just happened to disagree....vehemently.
Denny

Tamara
September 4, 2002, 03:55 PM
I have to say that I was pretty dumbfounded myself when I read that, until I realized that, by his lights, I must be some unstoppable ubertactical chick because I own a Very Expensive 1911 that says "professional" right on the gun. Cool! I don't have to worry about mindset, marksmanship, or tactics anymore; all I have to do is carry my most expensive pistol and I'm good to go!




;) :p

Correia
September 4, 2002, 04:05 PM
Tamara, I would think you were UberTacticool even if you were armed with a pointy stick and a rock. :)

Seriously though, who would you rather face in a gun fight, this guy with his $2000 wonder gun, or a graduate of Thunder Ranch and Gunsite who practices and competes regularly, armed with a Bulgarian Makarov?

OF
September 4, 2002, 05:25 PM
I thought you handled him pretty well, Denny. It was a class response.

- Gabe

Mal H
September 4, 2002, 05:27 PM
Correia - Neither. Luck can outperform skill on any given day! :)

The guy who wrote the letter is the same type who thinks and says that he is an expert driver because he owns the meanest, loudest and most expensive hupmobile on the block. The car usually ends up as a cube about 2 feet square and 3 feet long. Sometimes the driver is included in the cube, sometimes he isn't if he's lucky.

"I own therefore I am."

KSFreeman
September 4, 2002, 07:33 PM
You mean that ownership does not equate to skill? Oh, man, but I'm waaaay too cool to train!:D If we keep yammering about skul, we'll sound like KSFreeman [shudder].

Rich, was this guy writing on letterhead from SoCal by chance? How much did his flowered shirts cost?

Betty
September 4, 2002, 09:21 PM
That letter was quite humorous.

"I have a custom .45 that I spent over $2,000 on, and am planning on buying a Robar sniper rifle as soon as I can save enough money for it. Top equipment is what separates the men from the boys."

And as we ladies like to say, "It's not the equipment, it's how you use it." ;)

Hemicuda
September 4, 2002, 09:26 PM
You mean that because I have a Merkel rifle that I am top of the heap?

that only owners of rare drillings' and european double rifles are better!

I can stop buying all this ammo and practicing all the time! I am SUPERSHOOTER, because I have an expensive rifle?

COOL!!!!!:rolleyes: :barf:

Correia
September 4, 2002, 10:25 PM
Carefull, or some guy with a Perazzi and a Korth is going to come by here and kick all our butts...

Jamie Young
September 4, 2002, 11:26 PM
Sounds like the same person that puts their life savings in the Stock Market.

Like a "Lucent" stock holder.;)

Dennis
September 5, 2002, 05:51 AM
A rather curious chap. If he truly believed what he wrote, why was he reading S.W.A.T. Magazine? Perhaps (and hopefully) he merely overstated his case or hadn't thought through his (rather sad) opinion.

At the opposite end of the training-appreciation spectrum, I recently asked a lady to fetch my .45 from my car. She's a shooter so I had no qualms about her handling my Kimber.

She returned without my .45 saying, "I don't remember how to handle an automatic safely. Here, take my .357--it's loaded, of course." She held out her revolver (by the frame, cylinder open, handle toward me, barrel straight down).

As I took her revolver she said, "I know. You showed me and I practiced; but it's been too long." Then, with a twinkling eye she asked, "So when do we go to the range again?"

(Sigh! The "tribulations" of an instructor.... :D )

Tamara
September 5, 2002, 06:22 AM
"Hey, I'm a professional; it says so right on the gun." :D:D:D

Pat Rogers
September 5, 2002, 07:11 AM
I fired off a post to Denny about this BEM, because i figured this was a National Lampoon type of response.
I was disheartened to find out it was not.

And as he was obviously responding to my Mindset article, i was even more despondent.

Some people shouldn't be allowed to own guns- drive cars- procreate- operate machinery, or dress themselves.

The Combat Triad is comprised of three sides, each being necessary. Marksmanship is important, but so is Gunhandling and Mindset.
Of course you can do everything wrong and still win, but only if your opponent does more wrong than you.
Or you can do everything right and still lose, because your opponent did more right than you.

It pains me to see that there are so many people like him who fail to understand the basics, who despise training as if were some personal assault on their libido, and who flagrantly disregard even the basics of safe gun handling- and those that defend such negligence.

Of course i know of an incident that occured in Brooklyn in the mid 80's when an off duty Detective, faced with an armed carjacking of his POV, violated Rules 2 and 3, and shot himself in the butt.
The perp, after figuring out what had happened, laughed so hard that he was unable to complete the crime.

The world is full of BEM's...

Dave Williams
September 5, 2002, 07:45 AM
Hi there, I haven't read the letter, but this is related,

Tomorrow I leave for my 3rd handgun class in the last calendar year(and I'm trying to figure a way to finance a 4th at the end of the month, I think I'm some kind of junkie). I've tried to recruit coworkers(people who carry guns for a living, in a busy inner city area), with a little success(got one to go with me). I've heard this from two others(paraphrasing): "It's a waist of money to go to those classes, you can learn everything they teach you by reading books, and practicing at the range by yourself." I'm totally serious.

I consider defensive gunhandling a martial art. How can you expect to learn a martial art from a book? Does anyone have similar experience with these type of people

Also, to show firearm myths are still alive and kicking,
I was showing a 1911 just yesterday to a nice older man I met who expressed an interest in guns. He said(paraphrasing)"we had those in the military 40 years ago, you have to hold on with two hands they kick so hard, or you won't hit anything". I told him military training was not very good back then and the modern methods taught now allow control with one hand. He was offended by this statement. He then told me the 1911 was made to blow Germans completely out of trenches in WWI. He really thought the gun was that powerful. It was an amazing conversation. Anyone have similar experience?

Dave

C.R.Sam
September 5, 2002, 10:40 AM
Re the letter.
Denny done good.

Sam

pax
September 5, 2002, 11:34 AM
Dave,

That's the way I thought, right up until I took my first class. I really didn't believe there was much to be learned in a class that couldn't be learned from a book, or online.

Then I took a shooting class, and my shooting improved greatly in just two days. Hmmmmm.

I dunno what you can tell an autodidact to convince 'em that sometimes a formal class is necessary. I took my first class because my shooting buddy offered to pay for it -- and the school offered refunds to students who thought the class wasn't worthwhile.

One more point: I think you need a class to get training. Teaching you can indeed get from a book. But you need both teaching and training if you are going to shoot well.

pax

Denny Hansen
September 5, 2002, 02:50 PM
Tamara-
quote:
"Hey, I'm a professional; it says so right on the gun"

Then I must be a young stud--the pistol I have on right now says "Colt":D

FPrice
September 5, 2002, 03:02 PM
"Then I must be a young stud--the pistol I have on right now says "Colt""

Actually.....if one goes by the dictionary, I think that means that you are a "baby horse". :D

Denny Hansen
September 5, 2002, 04:07 PM
Yep, back East that's correct, but in Cowboy-speak and West of the Big Muddy
Colt=young stud
Filly=young female
;)

alan
September 24, 2002, 11:11 PM
Going back a few years, to when I used to shoot rifles, I had several Model 70 course guns. They looked as if they had been "run hard, and put away wet". Sweat stains on the stocks, brass ding marks on the receiver, blue was pretty much worn off on one, the others having been rebarreled a number of times, were never blued, and the exterior of barrels showed slight rust marks here and there.

Shooting my own handloads, and Redfield "iron" sights, I could hold 10 ring elevation at 600 yards, when I did my part. Don't remember having paid more than $200 for any of the Winchesters either. Someone still has to hold and shoot the thing, be it a pistol, shotgun or rifle. The human element is always ythere.

MrMurphy
September 26, 2002, 02:38 AM
Take a Navy SEAL with a flintlock Brown Bess, and put him up against that guy who thinks he can purchase skill with an M-4. Who do you think would win?


It's the shooter not the gear, though having the good gear does help.



When I took Dynamic Tactics with Andy Stanford back in June, there was about a dozen Glocks, one Sig, I think an S&W Third Gen, and a guy with a STI Infinity (1911 worth about $3,000), who used to shoot IPSC quite well, but got into the defensive mindset. He didn't buy the gun, it was given to him to pay a fee, so I don't hold it against him, but in three days and among thousands of rounds, the only jam I saw was with his 1911, and it was a double-feed with a stuck mag. So much for buying the best eh?