PDA

View Full Version : No Place For Political Correctness


Darren Laur
September 1, 2002, 07:58 AM
The street is a very ugly place, and one in which "politically correct" methods, techniques, and theories do not belong.

In a street confrontation, if I cannot talk or walk my way out, I will "Penetrate and Dominate" my opponent(s). Offensive mind set, warrior spirit, killer instinct, whatever you want to call it, this must be something that is embraced, harnessed, and used to one’s fullest advantage. You have to be just as violent as your attacker (or even more violent), if not, you will likely loose. Not very politically correct, but a realistic and modernistic view in today’s real world. My goal is to totally overwhelm my opponent, and to hurt him to the point that I, or a loved one, can escape as safely as possible. In the street, winning or losing CAN mean the difference between life and death. Having a respected athlete die in your arms as a result of a street predators tactics, does change one’s perspective on the reality of it all. Combine this personal experience, with the victimizations that I see on a daily basis in my job, from the result of street violence, can give one a clear and present understanding of what the consequences are if you do not WIN the street fight !!!!!

What I find extremely troubling and down right negligent, is some of the stuff that people are promoting as “street” self-defence:

· No touch knock outs
· Combat Ki
· Catching punches in the air and turning them into arm locks, wrist locks.

Give me a break !!!!!! What these people are teaching is not self-defence, but rather self-defeat. Acid test everything first. There is no such thing as reality, but reality itself. As trainers and students of combatives, we can acid test what we do in dynamic scenario based training to replicate reality to a point, but remember, there is no such thing as reality but reality itself. Question, and question again, what you are learning or even teaching when it come to street combatives. Never get caught up in a “system” that advertises that they have the answer to everything. It has been my experience that these charlatans prey on the sheep of the martial arts community for nothing more than the old mighty buck.


For those who say they teach their system of fighting to SEALS, DELTA, FBI, RUSSIAN SPECIAL FORCES, and any other spec warfare or elite police Emergency Response Teams HTH Skills ( in an attempt to promote their style of fighting as street effective), good for you, but in most cases, these warriors aren’t the predators you will be facing on the street who use totally different S.O.P’s than those listed above (remember know thy enemy). Think about this one for a moment. As well, talk to any grunt on one of the above-mentioned teams, I know I have, and they will tell you that the last thing they want to do is to go toe to toe with an enemy/opponent. That is why they are given warrior tools such as guns, grenades, and knives. Do these teams run into HTH combative situations? Yes they do. But this is the “rare” exception and not the rule. What these teams do possess and which needs to be understood and harnessed by those of us teaching combatives is “Warrior Spirit”. I truly believe that this one very important attribute is what makes these units, and warriors serving in them, so formidable and dangerous.



The reason for this post, “Modern Realists” need to be heard, even if what they say is a bitter pill to swallow by those who are more “traditional”. It is time that these people dig their heads out from beneath the sand. Violence is not a politically correct beast, dealing with it effectively can not be either.



Strength and Honor

Darren Laur

Hard Ball
September 1, 2002, 09:10 AM
This is glaringly obvious, BUT it is remarkable how many people who are training for self defense niether know it or understand it. :(

C.R.Sam
September 1, 2002, 09:58 AM
If I must stay to defend..
It will not be to dance.
But to take the offensive
And end the conflict;
As safely and expeditiously as possible.

"Politically correct"
Only works when all parties abide by the rules.

Again, Thanks Darren.

Sam

Blackhawk
September 1, 2002, 10:18 AM
All of the MA dances require choreography for demonstrations, exhibitions, etc., and that requries cooperation from the designated "enemy", but it's totally UNrealistic.

"Fair fight" is an oxymoron, because the only objective is to prevail.

PC is useful before a fight starts in the talking phase because it might not be helpful to refer to a stinking, low life scuzzball in those terms if you want him to be receptive to your words.

IMO, a rapid shift from PC to decidedly loud berating is quite helpful for you and intimidating to your adversary when the fight does start. It gives you an adrenaline kick, and that never hurts your chances....

Darren Laur
September 1, 2002, 04:31 PM
As always, thank you C. R. Sam and Blackhawk


Strength and Honor

Darren Laur

Blackhawk
September 1, 2002, 04:47 PM
Darren, you're the one who deserves the thanks. Your vast knowledge and experience is obvious from your posts, and your posts are an immense resource for all to learn from.

So, thanks! :D

C.R.Sam
September 1, 2002, 11:14 PM
Darren posts...
We learn.
Simple.

Sam

kungfool
September 5, 2002, 02:57 PM
It could be said to have begun with bruce lee. The questioning of every technique taught to any student. If it works (for that individual) then keep it, if it does not work, forget it.

However, almost no one who enters martial arts does so only to become a better fighter when they need or choose to be. There is SO much more to the martial art spirit than only the warrior spirit.

No holds barred fighting clubs, (I am a fan of Matt Hughes and have spoken on occasions with his father Russell) are changing the way many civillians (non-martial artists) view martial arts.

I think it needs to be acknowledged that while orgs like the UFC are pointing out the obvious flaws in many MA styles when confined to fighting alone, (something that surely needed to be brought to the front) that the level of fighter turned out by these clubs is a much higher caliber fighter/athlete than even a skilled practioner of any one art. The reason being of course that one focuses only on fighting and conditioning, while the other (should) focuses on the development of the entire person, which in my opinion takes more commitment and much more time.

If all you want is to be a good fighter, condition and learn to fight. If you wish to learn skills that will carry you through all areas of your life (even when you are 98 years old), find a good martial arts school and commit yourself to the instructor and the art. But they are TWO different things.

So find a good school with a good instructor and indeed question the validity of any techniques you don't understand. I even found out the hard way that a serious student should even hold his master accountable for what they teach. But commit to it. (I even say make it your lifestyle) Only by commiting fully (but not blindly) can one really appreciate the full value of what martial arts has to offer.

If ya wanna learn how to fight, find such a program you have faith in and commit to that.

· No touch knock outs
· Combat Ki
· Catching punches in the air and turning them into arm locks, wrist locks.

Any martial arts instructor who claims to teach such skills to novices (or anyone really) isn't worth the sweat you won't be working up in their gym.

Spectre
September 5, 2002, 06:32 PM
· No touch knock outs
· Combat Ki
· Catching punches in the air and turning them into arm locks, wrist locks.

Well- I actually know folk who can probably do all those things (definitely the last two)- but they don't claim to teach 'em! :D

Trick with "catching" punches is to actually contact the striker's arm after it's already losing energy, or in a way where the energy (force) of the punch will not be transferred to you. I don't know that you actually "catch the punch" but you can catch the arm! Seen it done many times...seen chubby women avoid objects swung at 'em so fast the club was a blur...seen lots of things.

I think the point is well made -thanks, Darren- that being a "super soldier" does not automatically equate to being a super martial artist, but it might also be a mistake to underestimate the potential of a friend of adversary. A solid grounding in hand-to-hand skills is another tool that may serve us well, just as I know that firearms are tools. Tools exist to give us a mechanical advantage, and we should select from our box the tool most likely to do the job well. More tools= more options, and you certainly can't use a tool you don't have.

I've heard lots of people state very boldly what one "could" and couldn't do. Like 4 min mile runs and swims across the English Channel, it's always wise to remember that just because you are incapable of a certain action, does not mean everyone else is, as well.

LASur5r
September 5, 2002, 08:37 PM
I agree with what is being said here. Thank you for helping us focus, Darren.
For good or bad, I am a product of what is being said and I still have a long ways to go.
I am 53 years old , have gone toe to toe (not for long ) with Bruce Lee in '64-'65 and this after 7 years of hard training in old style martial arts (jiujitsu without mats...hardwood floors, grass, or a gravelled yard was our dojo)where I was considered pretty good in those days in Shotokan karate and Kempo.
Result of the classical mess? Bruce?...one punch each time I squared off with him....decked me each time. Knocked me unconscious the first two times.
I wandered the next 12 years getting in any fight that I could...full contact street, weapons, no weapons....against other martial artists, against street fighters so that I could learn to improve myself as a fighter and learn things that I could use when and if I ever get to 83+.
I'm not looking for fights anymore, have a family and responsibilities now. Still work out with guys who like to mix it up.

Biggest thing I've learned? Just like C.R. Sam said..... Paraphrasing with my .02$? best way to win a fight? Don't be there! If you have to fight? No choice? PC is not the way to win. That's what works for me.

Everybody has to find what works for them. At this age I shave down what I know works and keep trying to make it simple. Meanwhile, keep my eyes and ears open and learn.

Sorry for being long....finally found a bunch of folks like yourself who understand. Breath of fresh air.

pbarrick
September 23, 2002, 06:04 PM
"A committment to avoidance, deescalation and deterrence is your number one option for personal security."--Andy Stanford

"Don't go stupid places. Don't hang out with stupid people. Don't do stupid things."--John Farnam

Both phrases are worthy of notice by anyone interested in realistic self-defense. That being said, you train for the times that avoidance, deescalation and deterrence are not effective.

The problem that I've found with most martial-arts-based training is that it fits in too well with Tony Blauer's theory on presumed compliance and the myth of peak performance. It also seems focused less on the actual threat model seen in street confrontations and more on defeating other martial artists.

The real question that any self-defense student has to answer for themselves is whether or not the skills they are learning can be applied anytime, anywhere and get effective results? The skills that people need when the balloon goes up are simple, aggressive and non-target-specific.

I live where there's a lot of concern for a serial killer in our area. A recent America's Most Wanted profiled the case and showcased some local efforts at self-defense instruction. A part of one training class involved women "breaking the elbow" of their attacker by utilizing techniques which, in my opinion, fall far short of the goal of actually working. I think it is lamentable that people can teach (presumably in good conscience) techniques that are ineffective to people who may need to really on those teachings.

MarineTech
September 23, 2002, 08:46 PM
One of the most horrifying things I ever heard along these lines was from a female coworker. She made the statement that her Taibo class was teaching her self-defense. I literally stood there with my jaw ratcheting up and down for about a minute before declaring "You can't be serious!"

I was quickly able to set her straight on the issue.

I was just shocked at the mental image of her trying to use her "skills" against an attacker and finding out just how inadequate they were.

Mannlicher
September 28, 2002, 06:35 PM
I am not sure I am learning anything here. I am old, dont wan't to fight, and am darn observent of what happens around me. I do NOT go to places that are questionable for my safety, and will do my best to walk away from confrontation.

If I am pressed, then someone is going to be in trouble. I am much more willing to take my chances in court with a pretty durn good lawyer, than on the street.