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LASur5r
August 19, 2002, 02:10 PM
We had a security practice run the other day. We did badly today.

The practice? Armed bad guy walks into our office which has a large counter in a circle facing the inner sitting area to best serve the public. BG walks in front door of the ground floor. You're working on the second floor, when BG decides to go on rampage, shooting all the victims where he finds them. He shoots the people that he found on the first floor and goes up the second floor stairway which opens directly into the lobby on the ground floor...he shoots people who curiously came towards the sound of the gunshots. People hide under their desks, he shoots them.
In our office, we have police officers playing the BG's and they are shooting blanks. Sounds like real gunfire. We are in a corner office and hear the gunfire. I barricade door with desk, etc..dial 911 and grab throwing objects, ie. paper weight, scissors, etc...pray to my Maker, and am preparing to die a loud, ugly, and resisting victim.
The office policy is no carrying of gunfire while employed for the local government.

Okay, pucker factor time....what is your escape plan?
We have finally added a designated person to run through the building warning all workers if this kind of scenario happens. Unless he/she is shot early in the game. Then Plan B kicks in , everyone on their own running and screaming out of any exit that you can. We only have two exits.

What would you do?

Thumper
August 19, 2002, 03:36 PM
What? They just sprung this on you unannounced?

gryphon
August 19, 2002, 04:09 PM
They don't have an official policy where I work, and the state that I live in does not allow concealed carry. However, I never leave home without my Benchmade Stryker. I'm getting myself and as many of my coworkers out the back steps as possible, but if the scenerio occurs that the BG and I run into each other, he's getting a taste of steel(if I can get to him and my only other option would have been to take one in the head anyway).

I too am a little dumb founded that they would spring something like that on you unannounced. What if someone had attacked one of the "BG" officers and seriously hurt them?

Blackhawk
August 19, 2002, 06:44 PM
So basically, you're like trapped rabbits if some BG comes in and starts shooting...?

And the state has effectively disarmed you even if your employer hadn't already...?

You're either going to have to figure out a good place to hide or pull a MacGyver and combine spit, soap, and dust from the floor to make an explosive homing stapler that seeks the source of gunfire to whack the BG between the eyes, knocking him out.

Or, you can move until the people of the PRK wake up and do something about making everybody there a victim!

LBC
August 19, 2002, 09:08 PM
My desk is mid way down a wall that is between either two avenues of escape (a side door, and a corridor to the front door), or, conversely, two avenues of possible attack. Almost directly behind me is a 15-foot dash to another doorway and a warehouse with two possible exit doors to the outside. The 'front" door to the building is around the corner and maybe 70 feet away -- any commotion up there I would have plenty of notice. I carry at work, so....

nbk2000
August 19, 2002, 09:28 PM
If you're on the second floor, bust out a window (if there aren't any that open) and jump. Better a broken leg than one to the head.

70-101
August 19, 2002, 09:34 PM
Engineering and Enviormental Sciences companys in Virginia. We do a large amount of work on Govt. projects/contracts. Our employee safety plan is very important to my employer. Each floor has two safety officers who insure company rules pretaining to safety are followed. But, I am still not allowed to carry on the property,and believe me I asked. Since, I am just another one of the sheep at work, what can I do....:(

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
August 19, 2002, 11:15 PM
y'know, I work for Big Blue, who has a strict no-weapons policy. The sign isn't "correct" to the letter of the law, but I like working there and the checks come in handy for supporting my two worst habits, living indoors and eating regularly. By virtue of that, I don't carry a concealed firearm inside the building, but I always have a good blade in my person, as does half (at least) the other tech-heads who work with me. and several of us have seen the elephant before. If this scenario, this "drill" had happened un-announced in our office, I doubt that there would have been the nearly 100% casualty rate as described. Of course, there would probably be civil suits and perhaps criminal charges filed by the "off-duty LEO's" after one or more of them had their day ruined by a 'victim'...

We've discussed this type of scenario before. We don't like surprises. We're analysts. We plan and prepare after exploring all possibilities. We overcome problems.

I wonder if my own management would be so misguided as to 'present us with a team-building opportunity' like this?


Regards,
Sylvilagus


"well... I don't know how they do it in other
places but up this way we usually apply the tar
first, then the feathers and follow that with a
ride on a 10 foot length of 4x4 rail before we
get to the hanging. Makes it more of a social
occasion and clarifies the feelings of the party
attendees for the guest of honor."

Bogie
August 20, 2002, 12:54 PM
Nobody had better be between my office and the door to the stairs at the end of the wing.

Oleg Volk
August 20, 2002, 06:34 PM
Hmmm...I used to work in a place which frowned on any weapons, in a state where carry wasn't legal, by and large. Unannounced "drill" would have found me moving to some corner, with back to the wall and cover in front. Any pretend BG would have had a good chance of being shot, killed because I had as little as eight rounds of .32 or fifteen rounds of 9x19 and would want his weapon in case more show up. I can't tell blanks from live ammo well enough under the circumstances. In short, if such a drill happened, it would have flushed a lot of armed people out at the cost of some dead participants.

As for dependence on paycheck...save some against loss of the job so you can concentrate on saving your hide.

Penman
August 21, 2002, 05:50 PM
Please confirm that the management of your company actually allowed an unannounced drill that led people to believe they were under attack.
Thanks

MarineTech
August 21, 2002, 06:01 PM
To use your example LA, he came up the stairs from the 1st floor after he got done killing people in the lobby. He would have met my desk on it's way down. Bugs Bunny the jerk.

LASur5r
August 23, 2002, 07:14 PM
Yes, folks,
It was "unannounced"..the department head passed the word to the sr. analyst (from his vacation spot...last minute...that morning) who passed the word to a jr. analyst who put the alert out to us 225 employees at 12 noon by e-mail. The "raid" was at 11:30 a.m.. 'Nuff said.
The attack was a "security training exercise." No other information followed.
No wonder morale is so high in our department.

This one wasn't as bad as the time as when they had three BG's (two men and one female officer) who came in heavily armed, one of the officers forgot that he was an officer and again we didn't have sufficient warning about the training exercise....ended up with two support staff folks fainitng and hyperventilating and one other person getting "butt stroked" because he wouldn't look away from the the three BG's. He was being a good witness. The the female officer shot the one guy who had just been butt stroked with a simunitions round.

We all learned about being defiant at the wrong time on that one.

Sad the "office" types are "sheeple", us "field guys" have access to our cars and thus our weapons, but we cannot carry so most of us have at least two knives readily accessible.

Oleg Volk
August 23, 2002, 07:25 PM
"Perp" with simunitions ammo would die if a person with a knife decides to stop the preceived threat. It is amazing and anti-Darwinian that the participants survived and the planners escaped a lawsuit or several.

Penman
August 26, 2002, 11:24 AM
Thanks, LASur5r. It's amazing that the "victimized" employees don't own the company by now. Appreciate the information.

yorec
August 26, 2002, 01:05 PM
Yeah - imagine what would have happened had this "miscommunication" happened in an office where CCW was legal or where someone thought it really is "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six."

My office is a car - I have a shotgun, a rifle, carry a greater-than-ten-capacity semi auto pistol, mace, handcuffs and an ASP baton and wear body armor under my badged uniform shirt. Plan A for when being fired upon by a BG who's appeared from nowhere is still to drive away as quickly as I can. Hope he's in front of me when I drop the tranny to "D"... ;)

Hemicuda
August 26, 2002, 01:27 PM
Someone comes in my office shooting a gun,and buttstroking people, they are gonna have a few more holes in them when they leave...

it is NOT my job to check for "simunition"... only to protect myself from the clear and immediate threat...

Kharn
August 28, 2002, 07:19 AM
My plan: Either run for one of the security-badge-required lab doors and get inside ASAP (concrete filled 2" thick doors that close under their own weight due to the special hinges) or get down on the ground, cover my ears and hope the Marines do not shoot me by accident. Since the Marines are stationed at the front desk, running out the front door is not an option. I work on a Naval base during the summer/semester breaks.

Kharn

imadork
August 28, 2002, 11:55 PM
**** 'em. I work in a private office and I have a locking desk to keep a spare .45 in so there's no reason not to. If someone appearing to be a bad guy pulls a gun in the office, I pull on him (or them) before I ask questions. If they're actors they'll play it cool, they'll drop their replica weapons, they won't get shot. The statutes here specifically state that a person may act on how things would appear to a reasonable person without criminal consequences. Of course there are also civil liability concerns, so the rubber buckshot is another option. I would rather risk getting fired, and the absence of metal detectors at the entrance lets me do this with minimal chances of detection. If they pull a stunt like this in my office, they can be assured of finding out just how self-defense works.

Correia
August 29, 2002, 05:30 PM
It is against the rules to carry here at work, I would be fired if I did. So if in my response I make it sound like I carry anyway, that is only hypothetical. :p

So with that bit of nonsense out of the way, I would take cover and shoot. I'm to damn big and slow to try and escape.

I can't imagine a company having an unannounced security drill with actors. Here in Utah where we have something like 60,000 CCW holders out of 2 million people, some actors would get shot right quick.

RH
September 2, 2002, 01:21 PM
craziest thing i ever heard ! what was the desired result - to teach complete submission and death?

I have always had a real good arm - baseballs, softballs, footballs, snowballs. I have two fist-sized marble paperweights on my desk, one is a pyramid and one is an egg. even if I decided not to go for the head (potentially fatal), but went for the higher percentage CM, it would probably take a guy out of the fight long enough to subdue him.

stinger
September 2, 2002, 06:37 PM
That is the stupidest %$#% drill I have ever heard about. Are you serious? That doesn't sound possible. Why would anyone want their employees subjected to this? Why would any officer agree to do this?

This is an accident waiting to happen. You need to contact the higher-ups (go outside your department). Something like this should never, ever happen.

It would be a very bad day for someone to open fire on Stinger with blanks. It would be an even worse day to hit him in the head with the buttstock. Stinger has a very even temper, but won't tolerate negligence. When Stinger is referring to himself in the 3rd person, he is not very happy.

This nonsense has to end...immediately.

Stinger

pbarrick
September 20, 2002, 02:05 PM
I hope your place of work includes health insurance that covers Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder...

I work as an IT contractor and my available tools at any given work site can vary depending on the level of security at any given location (Installing NCIC systems, I went to every jail and prison in my home state.).

Typically, I carry a Surefire E2, a plain-edge delica and a 16" Airweight ASP baton (in appendix carry) on a regular basis. (Pepper spray is in my lockable Zero Halliburton case but generally inaccessible at the office because of that).

With a gunman in the office place, my best option would be to move away from the gunfire to the nearest means of egress. We have two stairwells (one central to the building, one on the far end) and an elevator (too slow). Staying in place certainly wouldn't a good idea. Without the means to engage a gunman at a distance, I would try to create distance while making use of available cover and/or concealment as I made my way to an exit.

In handling any situation, I try to default to movement in conjunction with any other action that I'm taking. Move! Move! Move!

Shodan
September 20, 2002, 02:44 PM
Are you sure you're not leaving anything out? By your description of your workplace there could have been customers there also when this happened?

At my workplace I probably could escape through any number of exits. The building has been added on to over the years so the floor plan, including doors, doesn't make much sense.

Assuming I couldn't escape my office in time, I guess I would hide just inside the door of my office with my Benchmade and attack the bad guy if he entered.

If your managment thought this was a good idea, I doubt they would be smart enough to find out if you were carrying against their rules:rolleyes:

Shodan