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mattd
August 5, 2002, 11:39 PM
Hey there...I was just wondering if anyone has some good gouge on tactical shooting stances (body posture, position, etc.) like maybe a website with pictures. I've read a little about the modified Weaver and the Isoceles (sp?) and was wondering what else is out there? I watched "Black Hawk Down" tonight and was intrigued by what I saw...which was probably Hollywood, but still unlike anything I've seen at the range. Thanks in advance...

Matt



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<---------Still trying to think of a creative tagline.

mattd
August 6, 2002, 12:03 AM
Ok...according to this website with pictures, I'm doing the "modern Weaver" or some variation. Actaully, it looks like something I saw on TV and seems to be pretty acurate, but not as acurate as I could be. And they say TV rots your brain...Geesh!

baldangel
August 6, 2002, 12:46 AM
I teach a sort of "fighters Stance". Its similar to the weaver, but you are more in a boxer/martial artist stance. Imagine the stance you would be in if attacked, and adopt a comfortable position for shooting, ie. shoulders up and forward, knees bent, a more aggresive weaver. The most important things are comfort, good accuracy, and a plan not to just stand there and go toe-to-toe, but escape and seek cover.
Fail to prepare/ prepare to fail.

Blackhawk
August 6, 2002, 12:47 AM
What website, Matt?

mattd
August 6, 2002, 11:14 AM
Geez, I dunno man. I went to Yahoo and did a search of 'Tactical Shooting' and got thousands of hits. I think on the first page was a site called Midwest Shooting Academy or some such thing. Anyway, it had a good set of pictures of the author in various stances, with a page or so explanation of each. I can't remember the specific name, but it was Midwest Shooting something something. Overall, I keep reading 'go with what works for you' and that seems to make sense. The guy at the indoor range just about laughed at me because I didn't want to use his 'Isoceles' that he'd just taught my two friends with much improvement. I guess there's a lot to be said about the 'old school' way of doing things. Just my $.02 worth.

Matt

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<-----Still trying to think up a creative tagline.

Blackhawk
August 6, 2002, 11:41 AM
Not familiar with Midwest Shooting Academy and only got 6 hits on Yahoo, but here's a 2 year old thread from TFL that was interesting: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44963

Jeff White
August 6, 2002, 07:50 PM
Matt,

What intrigued you in Black Hawk Down? Stances and shoting positions are usually quite modified to take advantage of cover and concealment.

Welcome to TFL...

Jeff

mattd
August 6, 2002, 10:37 PM
Jeff:

In several scenes of the movie (I know it's just a movie), the D-boys switch to side arms after running dry magazines in their rifles. I'd love to be able to draw, acquire the target and fire with accuracy, all while on the move. Granted, it's not running, but walking aggressively towards the target, and being able to engage it with repeated well-placed shots. It certainly appears to the untrained eye (mine) that a "walking" modified Weaver was the basis for these, but I'm no expert. I dunno, like I said maybe it's all Hollywood. But those skills are admirable, and maybe I'm just getting bored shooting paper targets on a lane. I need to check out this IPSC thing I keep hearing about. It sounds like fun.

Matt

Blackhawk
August 6, 2002, 11:19 PM
I need to check out this IPSC thing I keep hearing about. It sounds like fun. Everybody I know who participates thinks it's enormously fun...! It's even fun for the observers.

mattd
August 6, 2002, 11:41 PM
What's the premise? How does one get involved? What's it gonna cost me?

Thumper
August 7, 2002, 12:02 AM
http://www.ipsc.org/

My favorite shooting sport:

http://www.idpa.com/

Welcome to TFL, Matt. You'll find that Harry Humphries, the associate producer and technical advisor for Blackhawk Down, is one of the moderators here.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=237 You can ask him yourself.

Remember; the search function is your friend.

kantuc2
August 7, 2002, 02:16 AM
If your stance is correct, you are not using cover and movement. Bang Bang your are dead.:p

Jeff White
August 7, 2002, 10:49 AM
Matt,

You saw the operators doing a very common transition and shoot on the move drill. Simply stated, it involves using whatever position (weaver, modified weaver, isosolies) and moving towards the target in a bent knee walk commonly known as the groucho walk. Walking with bent knees keeps you from bobbing up and down so much and allows you to maintain a good sight picture while moving.

Jeff

Blackhawk
August 7, 2002, 11:10 AM
I get laughed at a lot when practicing that walk. Groucho walk is a good name for it, because it is funny to watch. :D

mattd
August 7, 2002, 12:25 PM
Wow...all great intel. It looks like I came to the right place. Regarding the Weaver vs. Isoceles discussion, IMHO it feels easier to recover in between shots by using a bent arm down on the weak side at about a 45 degree angle (left), which is also using the left index finger to brace around the tactical guard. The right arm (my stong side) is just slightly straighter but not locked as my aim is parallel to my forearm holding the weapon. I really took to heart the comment about approaching the target in a 'martial arts' type of stance, and that feels intuitive (for me, the left side leads)...making the cross-section a smaller target, while enabling the upper body to maneuver the weapon easier. In my mind, this would also lend itself to a simplier employment of the Groucho walk. In thoery anyways...

Thanks for the gouge on IPSC, I'll check it out. I'll also get Mr. Humphries input...would like to know a little more about his background and thoughts on the above.

Thumper
August 7, 2002, 07:55 PM
Matt, are you referring to the double tap, advancing headshot sequence...When the Delta Op is shooting drills on the beach?

That wasn't an illustration of the groucho, but rather the SAS step.

SAS step is very fast and great for open areas.

Harry can explain this a lot better than I can; he's a teacher.

mattd
August 7, 2002, 10:15 PM
Dude, another stance/step. Just when I thought I had a handle on all of this. Thumper- you got it. That was one of the scenes indeed. The SAS step huh? Gotta look that one up...

Mr. Humphries, I noticed you're listed as one of the moderators. Would you care to comment on the Groucho/SAS step please? Thanks in advance...

Matt

dzon143
August 8, 2002, 07:08 AM
Just to let you know that it is a proven fact that you cannot shoot and move let alone talk. at the same time. Shooting scores are more accurate when you are standing/stationary, even for a brief second. Sure anyone can walk and shoot but the score suffer. Also its a CQB norm that when your long gun goes down for what ever reason you transition over to your handgun. The reason for this is to get more ammo down range while trying to obtain cover. Once you have cover then you can reload or unjam your rifle. BlackHawk down demonstarted alot of things that actually go on in the real world. People leaving gear behind cause its too heavy, not taking the best equipment, not prepairing for the worst case etc.... I see it everyday. We submit to the peer pressures of life. SHAME ON US!!!!!

mercop
August 8, 2002, 12:00 PM
I shoot Paul Castle's CAR system for CQB and the old Iso for long range.

Thumper
August 8, 2002, 05:06 PM
dzon143...

"Just to let us know?" Not sure how to respond to that. I realize you're new here, but do you have any idea of the background of some of the people you're addressing?
Just to let you know that it is a proven fact that you cannot shoot and move let alone talk. at the same time.
Proven fact? Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't know what you're trying to say. Perhaps that it's easier to shoot from a static position? I don't think anyone would argue that, but to contend that in a CQB environment one should STAND STILL indicates your level of inexperience.

EVERY tactical operator in the world is taught to shoot while moving, for obvious reasons. They are also expected to get good hits while moving.

Sorry if my responce seems a little vehement, but this is a tactical forum. You coming here and posting from a position of ignorance is not just irresponsible, it's dangerous.

Blackhawk
August 8, 2002, 06:22 PM
Can't think of any reason I'd be talking while I'm shooting, but I'll guarantee you that I can move and shoot accurately enough at the same time....

Thumper
August 8, 2002, 07:47 PM
"Drop it."
"Do not move."
"Down! Down! Everybody stay down."
"Moving."
"Gun!"

Identification and communication...very important in the environment under discussion.

dzon143
August 8, 2002, 07:57 PM
If you look , I think in the last issue or the last two issues, an article was written in the Tactical Edge magazine about how one should stop or hold for a second or two, take the shot then keep moving. But then I guess they were wrong too. I am not stating that when in a CQB situation, one should stop, gain a sight picture, squeeze the trigger then move. This all happens in seconds. As far the groucho, if one video tapes the movement, which I have, the majority of student shoot while they are stationary, both feet are stationary on the ground. Not one foot up while the other is down. If I am wrong please let me know so I can call the US Marine Corp SORT team along with a Federal Agency and tell them to stop. For I have been teaching them for the past several years the wrong thing. Your right you never do know who you are talking to on this thing. Again, if you can shoot and move at THE SAME TIME, it is faster, "but" your hit/kill ratio is lower.:rolleyes:

Blackhawk
August 8, 2002, 09:14 PM
"Drop it."
"Do not move."
"Down! Down! Everybody stay down."
"Moving."
"Gun!" That's what I call talking.

Shooting goes like this:

"Bang"
"Bang"
"Bang"
"Bang"
"Bang"
"Bang"
"Bang"
"Bang"
"Bang"

:D

Blackhawk
August 8, 2002, 09:21 PM
one should stop or hold for a second or two, take the shot then keep moving. If I ever get in another gunfight, I sure hope the BGs all know they're supposed to do that.

It's such a bother to figure out how to lead moving targets.... :rolleyes:

dzon143
August 9, 2002, 11:37 AM
the bad guys dont know this that's why we SHOULD be the winners in the gunfight TRAINING!!!!!!!!:cool:

Thumper
August 9, 2002, 01:06 PM
I think you missed Blackhawk's point, dzon.

Correia
August 9, 2002, 01:54 PM
Shooting while move is very common in IPSC and IDPA. Good hits are very possible. There are variances in the top shooters techniques, with some trying to fire only while both feet are on the ground, while others just try to drive the front sight to the target regardless of how the feet are placed. Heck, even the IDPA classifier has movement in it.

A good way to practice this (besides lots of dryfire) is to hold an almost full mug of water out like it is your handgun. Practice moving as fast as you can with out sloshing the water out of the cup. In competition I've gotten really good at moving forward and backwards while engaging, but my accuracy while moving laterally sucks. :) Gotta work on that.

Farnham teaches to fire a bunch of shots, move rapidly, then fire another volley. So on.

My opinion on stances is that you should just use whatever works for you. Modify it for your body, pay attention to how you feel, analyse what works for you, and practice tons.

LASur5r
August 9, 2002, 09:15 PM
Welcome to TFL,
Hope you get involved in all kinds of training...something not mentioned often is shooting on the move and using any "tactical" cover that you can.....think, street gutter, telephone pole, underneath a car....etc.

We'd like the real world to be all stand up fair fights.... unfortunately, "bad guys" don't play by the rules. In real fights, they often outnumber you, outgun you, and try to catch you by surprise.

What do you do to beat this imbalance?

Hard Ball
August 12, 2002, 11:26 AM
I'd love to be able to draw, acquire the target and fire with accuracy, all while on the move. Granted, it's not running, but walking aggressively towards the target, and being able to engage it with repeated well-placed shots."

I find that with enough practice most serious shooters can readily hit man size targets while walking rapidly towards them as in advancing from cover to better cover.
Running is another matter. To me that is basically supreeive fire and only to be used when really necessary. :cool:

fix
August 12, 2002, 06:01 PM
US Marine Corp SORT

...and just what might that be (besides a pet peeve of mine...Corps...with an S)?

I was taught to shoot a handgun on the move in the Marine Corps. I suppose the super secret SORT team that I've never heard of has a different technique than us plain old, everyday Marines. Please elaborate.


...and by the way, I was taught to synchronize trigger pulls with steps so that the shots were fired with both feet on the ground...so I'm with you there. You just lost me with the rest.

Edited to remove somewhat offensive remark. Think twice...post once violation. My apologies...