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ACP230
August 5, 2002, 09:44 PM
Mine was a suppressed Mac 11. I didn't hit much with it which was partly my fault. I didn't like the way if felt, which was the gun's fault.

I haven't shot a Mac since. The only ones that look interesting are the slow fire conversions that I have read about. I've never even seen one of those.

MrPink
August 6, 2002, 03:02 PM
MAC 10 in 45ACP. What a bullet hose. Junky construction and a crappy trigger.

Tamara
August 6, 2002, 03:21 PM
The scene: Two of us go to local range with full auto rentals. We're both just old enough to rent a buzzgun and all excited by the prospect. There's the little .380 Ingram hanging on the wall, and I say "Oh, cool! Those things have like a super high cyclic rate! Let's rent that!". We collect the gun and... wait for it... one box of .380 ammo. Surely you can see this one coming...

Wondering what the dude behind the counter had been smirking about, we troop out to the firing line, loaded mag in hand, lock and load and "BBRRAAP! BBRRA...".

"What happened?" asks my friend.
"I think it jammed," respondeth I, "wait, lemme see... Nope. That was the whole mag!"
"We're gonna need more ammo" says my friend, looking at the remainder of the box of shells in his hand.

Jamie Young
August 6, 2002, 03:24 PM
MP5

Fun to shoot but jammed about 12 times out of 300rds.

ACP230
August 6, 2002, 07:15 PM
I've had a bad effect on some MP5s. The first one I shot, at a rental range in Georgia worked fine. Later, I shot a few at the old Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot in Central Lake, Michigan. I picked one up to shoot a side match there once and fired one round. As it went off I had a dim impression of something small and black flying out of the ejection port. I didn't think about it too much as I was swinging toward another target at the time. The gun paid attention though, it refused to eject the fired shell since the little black thing had been the extractor. They took the gun away and I shot the match with another one.
I also had a little trouble with a Uzi there once. Same thing one round and then nothing but a different reason. I never did find out why.
I walked up to the subgun area to do it over again the next day and the woman running the signup tried to run me off because I was a danger to the guns.

Hkmp5sd
August 6, 2002, 08:41 PM
M11/9 - 1200 round cyclic rate, can't hit squat.

Jamie Young
August 6, 2002, 09:10 PM
I really want to shoot an AC556 someday.

fed168
August 6, 2002, 09:16 PM
The MAC 10. What a piece. It was suppressed, and the can covered the sights, making it an instant bullet hose. Couldn't hit the broad side of Rosie O'Donell's rear with it.

Dave Haven
August 6, 2002, 10:59 PM
M-10 9mm. Uncontrollable on full auto. Totally impractical, but it's still a kick in the @$$ to shoot!
:D

goosegunner
August 7, 2002, 06:15 AM
The worst full auto I have shot was a G3, 20 shot from 10m = 7 hits on man sized target. We was 20 recruits testing out what our rifles was capable of, and desided to try a 20 round burst "Hollywood- style", the best was 9 hits, average was 3 or 4.

That one day at the firingrange almost made up for a whole year of pointless military training.

exilefromhell
August 7, 2002, 09:17 AM
MAC Jam-o-matic

HKP7PSP
August 7, 2002, 03:26 PM
I have a Mac11A1 (.380). It is 1800 rounds/minute. That is 30 per second. It has never jammed (only fired it once!).

Denny Hansen
August 7, 2002, 03:41 PM
GE mini-gun from Stembridge Arms (the movie guys).

Same mini-gun that was used in one of the Rambo flicks and Predator. Gun was out of time and ruptured case head came back and gave me a third belly button right next to the one made by a .32 ACP.

Shooting live ammo in movie guns sucks:barf:

fed168
August 7, 2002, 04:12 PM
Sounds like the winner is the MAC.

HKP7PSP
August 7, 2002, 04:17 PM
It is likely there are less reliable weapons than the Mac. Some writer said the S&W 76 made the Mac look great, and that comparing the S&W 76 to a dog was insulting to a dog. But then I know someone who just bought one, and he loves it. So I am not sure the real story of this.

Bartholomew Roberts
August 7, 2002, 05:09 PM
MAC-10.... first experience with one resulted in 50 rounds downrange and 3 rounds on the paper (two on target) firing at one of those gargantuan ape-sized silhouette targets at 25yds.

I did eventually get where I could use it though.

Denny Hansen
August 7, 2002, 06:59 PM
Like most every other FA firearm, the M10 can actually be used to good effect with trigger control. Sure, with its cyclic rate it needs a bit more practice, but it's far from being uncontrollable.

I for one always liked the S&W M76 and may take it second only after the MP5 in a sub-gun.
FWIW, in five years active duty with my former dept's SWAT team I had zero malfs with the HK gun--and we shot a lot.

Denny

HKP7PSP
August 7, 2002, 07:04 PM
I have a micro UZI 9mm and it fires just as fast as the Mac11a1/.380. But it has a better stock, looks better, and uses UZI magazines. So it is the same idea, but better. Too bad it was 3.75 times as expensive.

Quartus
August 7, 2002, 07:31 PM
Couldn't hit the broad side of Rosie O'Donell's rear with it.

:confused:


There's a slim side?



Grease gun for me. Chuga. . . . Chuga . . . Chuga . . .


Maybe the MAC is too fast, but that grease gun was BORING! I almost felt like I was standing around waiting for the next round to fire.

ACP230
August 7, 2002, 07:39 PM
I appreciate a Greaser. Shot one of those on that rental range in Georgia too. It chugged away, but I shot tighter groups than with the Thompson I tried right before it.

The suppressed one you could use at the Raptor Road event at the late, lamented, Second Chance Shoot was a hoot.
The targets were steel with flying dinosaurs painted on them. (The paintings lasted a few hours.)
The Grease Gun chugged, the can suppressed, and all I could hear was the "clank, clank, clank" of the 230 grain Core-Bon FMJs hitting steel.

I was grinning when I put the gun down.

Dave Haven
August 7, 2002, 10:42 PM
Like most every other FA firearm, the M10 can actually be used to good effect with trigger control. Sure, with its cyclic rate it needs a bit more practice, but it's far from being uncontrollable.Good point. Using the shoulder stock (and a silencer as a foregrip), it's not that bad if you control the bursts to 3-5 rounds. And they ARE quite reliable. Mine has only jammed once since 1984.
But you can't shoot 'em full auto with one hand like they do in the movies! :p :rolleyes: ;)

HKP7PSP
August 7, 2002, 10:51 PM
How about one in each hand then?

C.R.Sam
August 7, 2002, 10:56 PM
M3-? Grease gun. In 9X19.

Had a choice tween the mini Grease and Thompson. Obvious....Grease so much lighter and smaller. Played for bout 500 rounds......took the Thompson and kept it till it was replaced with M-16. Thompson worked every time and it was so easy to put three in a small area. Was worth the extra weight, bulk and complexity.

Never have tried a .45 Grease.....might be a better critter, probably is.

Sam

chetchat
August 8, 2002, 03:13 AM
I have a Powder Springs M10/9 and while it's not a MP-5, it's sure not a bad gun to shoot.

I can squeeze 2-3 round bursts and, using the front strap, can put a burst on target at 15 yards. IMO, not bad for an open bolt gun.

Shooting full auto is like sex - there really isn't any that's bad :)

Most frustrating was shooting a new (to me) AM-180 and a new FNC. The AM-180 was finicky ammo-wise, took a few trips to the range to figure out what to feed it. The FNC had trigger assembly problems and would runaway.

BigG
August 8, 2002, 09:16 AM
Like some other things I could name, there's no BAD full auto. ;) There is only good, better, and best.

I've never shot a MAC, so I'd have to say an UZI, that was the cheesiest I've ever shot, but it worked pretty dang effective. :D

SDC
August 8, 2002, 09:25 AM
Define "worst". "Worst" because I couldn't afford to pay for more ammo, definitely the M2 Browning :-). "Worst" because it fired so fast that the fun was over, and I had to wear my thumbs out loading more mags, probably the M11 in .380. From a technical standpoint, I've had more than one "run away" on me, and wouldn't stop firing when the trigger was released, so all you can do is hang on and keep everything going downrange.

Stephen A. Camp
August 8, 2002, 09:34 AM
Hello. Besides the MACs, the one I hit the least with is the old M2 carbine.

Best.

Johnny Guest
August 8, 2002, 02:16 PM
Perhaps the American 180. Fascinating little gun, and the idea of being able to shoot a lot of full auto cheaply was great. But my friend's gun wasn't cooperating. The big drum jammed often, and I had at least two out-of-battery rounds go off. Made my right ear ring and the little bits of brass and burning powder didn't feel at all good.

I like the US Carbines, but I never learned to hit anything with the M2 on full auto, beyond a very few yards range. Guess I need to go back and try some more.

An original AR10, former Dutch military gun. It had a lot of felt recoil on semi, and was really punishing on full auto, trying to hit from the shoulder. Surprisingly controllable from the hip, though.

Best,
Johnny Guest

Jamie Young
August 8, 2002, 03:28 PM
Since this thread is getting a lot of traffic...................... I've never viewed alot of full auto guns as being reliable. Are these (under $3000) F/A guns reliable?

Seems like many of them are such hi maintenance their annoying to take to a range. If I get more than a couple malfunctions out of gun I sell it.

HKP7PSP
August 8, 2002, 03:35 PM
I want them more because we are not supposed to be able to have them. But the $3000 UZI is reliable.

ACP230
August 9, 2002, 07:24 AM
A lot of subguns that fire from an open bolt (and used to be cheap) are very reliable. One of the most reliable I've shot has been a Madsen M50. It is very simply made, has a slow rate of fire, and just keeps going bangbangbangbangbang as long as you don't use anything but ball ammo in it.

You also have to have good magazines to keep subs running well.

C.R.Sam
August 9, 2002, 10:54 AM
You also have to have good magazines to keep subs running well. AMEN.

Sam

Bartholomew Roberts
August 9, 2002, 11:26 AM
Maybe the MAC is too fast, but that grease gun was BORING! I almost felt like I was standing around waiting for the next round to fire.

We had been firing up MP-5s when somebody brought out an M3A1 to play with. My first burst with it I fired a burst of one... it cycled so slow compared to the MP-5s that I thought I had a malf and let my finger off the trigger before it had fired the next round.

Still, I liked it... it was handy and I could hit what I aimed at; but I've always done better with chuggers like the Uzi and M3 than I have with higher cyclic rate guns (MP5 and Walther MPL being the 2 exceptions).

MrPink
August 13, 2002, 09:03 AM
Some good observations on the MP5 has me rethinking my "MAC was the worst" post. The problem is I think MP5s are so damn sexy. I did fire a sear conversion once that jammed every few rounds. Turned me off to conversions by Hard Times Armory.

fed168
August 13, 2002, 01:39 PM
I remember reading an article that Kokalis did awhile back, on the Vector Uzi. He mentioned that most of the sear guns (MP5) had reliability problems. He did not say why though, but I think it may go along the lines of being a parts gun.
I am curious though, were the MP 5s that have been discussed German made? To me that correlates to the problems an LE agency had when they bought their MPs, to find out that the guns were Pakistani manufactured (I found the last incident in the book on the MP 5, Project 64).
Also, what ammo was being shot out of the MPs?

MrPink
August 13, 2002, 04:39 PM
fed168,

Virtually all of the transferable MP5s are HK Germany conversions of the HK94. Urban legend has it that a few real MP5s made it in before the '68 GCA.

A buddy has a push pin registered receiver MP5 conversion and that runs like a top. It can take advantage of factory MP5 full auto parts so could be more reliable than a sear gun. Except for being chopped, channeled, drilled and remarked, its as close to an MP5 as you can get. Alas PP/RR MP5s carry a 30-40% premium over sear guns.

george miller
August 14, 2002, 05:39 PM
participated in an wargames exercise,never fired a m60 before and after it was over we were allowed to each fire it 500 rnds live ammo into targets set back 100 yard into a hill..lol,beat my chin up,then shown easier way,by resting your palm over the top and placing your chin on that.not the worst but after i got the hang of it,became the most fun. macs,i dont see how anyone could possably shoot one in each hand on the fa setting and hit anything.

Oleg Volk
August 16, 2002, 03:33 PM
http://www.olegvolk.net/newphotos/tn/m76extended.JPG
SW76 was un-ergonomic, climbed badly due to fast rate of fire, had a poor trigger and its stock tended to fold on its own.

Best full-auto was a Grease Gun, simple, controllable and accurate.

MP40 also worked well but seemed complex and some parts are fragile. I'd like to try a PPSh someday... MP5 climbed fairly badly but had decent sights. Had good luck with 1927 Thompson (heavy, accurate) and poor luck with an M1A1 for some reason...couldn't hit much with it.

Long Path
August 16, 2002, 09:02 PM
Hmmm... I originally was going to say the Madsen, which is foolishly designed (due to a forearm grip safety, you MUST use two hands to fire it!), inelegant (clamshell sheetmetal construction!), and inaccurate. But I have to admit that it's fairly handy (about MP-5 sized), and went bang every time I pulled the trigger. But man, shooting it next to an HK MP-5 made it seem sorry as heck!

Then I thought about the M-11 .380 that I've had some experience with. Most of my disgust for it was the fact that about every 4th round would fly out of the open bolt unfired. But that was really just a function of the bad, bad magazines we were using. The sights are almost a joke on them. I would genuinely rather have a Glock with a good 30 rd magazine than an M11, if I were to be in a firefight.

But then there's that certain M-2 Carbine with the really bad trigger, that I've NEVER been able to hit anything with on full auto, despite trying off and on over the last 20-sumpin' years. But it goes bang, and has decent sights, and can go semi.

The Reising that somebody donated to our P.D. runs like a Swiss watch. According to history, the Marines didn't think much of 'em. I suspect that it needs to stay very clean.

Yep, I think the biggest disappointment I've ever had was the American 180 .22 LR. You spend about half an hour painstakingly loading that big transversely-oriented top-mounted drum magazine up, listening to the promises of "write your name in cursive on a sheet of plywood from 15 yards!" Then you pull the trigger: "Brrrt...!" Jam. Clear. "Brt...!" Jam. Clear. "Brrrrrraaatttt[Hey! it's working! It's working...!]...!" Jam. Clear. Thinking about reloading that danged magazine again. Here. You take it; I'm done with it. Gimme the FN or the 1928 Thompson.

My single best FA experience? Would have to be either a well-suppressed MP-5, or the M-60 off the cliff at 400 yd targets. (Happiness is a growing pile of links and cases to your right.:) )

4V50 Gary
August 17, 2002, 12:55 PM
While it worked well, the Beretta M12 smg. Being left handed, it'd throw hot stuff into my face every now & then. Didn't have that problem with any other smg.

JamesAZ
September 25, 2002, 11:58 PM
"GE mini-gun from Stembridge Arms (the movie guys).

Same mini-gun that was used in one of the Rambo flicks and Predator. Gun was out of time and ruptured case head came back and gave me a third belly button right next to the one made by a .32 ACP.

Shooting live ammo in movie guns sucks"

I shot all of Stembridge's MP-5, Uzis and Beretta SMGs and they all worked flawlessly. The Beretta was the same SMG the Italian cops carry at the airport, the one with the mag well between the pistol grip and the foregrip (the SP-12?). The non-rotating bolt limited muzzle rise to up/down, just like the Uzi. Both fired moderately fast and were very controllable and didn't jam or malfunction in any way. They did feel noticeably chinsier to shoot compared to the MP-5 that rocked.

The MP-5 has a rotating bolt and not only climbs but walks to the upper left of the target with every round fired. It does shoot fast though, even the brass was ejected in tight formation, like the casings were on a belt as they left the ejection port. At the indoor range, I was 10 ringing the paper at the 50 foot extreme end of the range. It was love at first burst, just as long as the bursts were brief (3-5 rounds) and aimed. Those MP-5's could have used flash suppressors because the fireball from the muzzle obliterated my line of sight to the target; I was shooting Lapua 9mm SMG/FSJ (it's a bit hotter load than generic 9mm off the shelf ammunition) whose steel jackets send enough sparks down range to incinerate the paper if it was hung too close. Since then, the MP-5 has been my favorite SMG to shoot for pleasure.

Rental guns are usually in terrible shape, I don't think they accurately represent a responsibly owned and maintained SMG any more than a rental Beretta 92FS that has seen better days, misfiring and jamming after a hard life in the hands of renters and the often cusory maintenance performed between range rentals they get. I'll bet that a lot of botched sear guns are the ones that find their way into range rentals, so I don't see that as an accurate measure of a SMG's utility.

DrDremel
September 26, 2002, 08:07 AM
As far as the S&W 76, a lot of people shoot the MK760 and think it is the same as the S&W76. The MK760 was a copy that was not of the same quality. I have over 35,000rounds through mine and it has never malfunctioned except when I tried hollowpoints in it. But that does not really count since most subguns don’t like hollowpoints, especially those that were made before hollowpoint ammo was common. The S&W 76 is a good design, the only thing that killed it was the timing of it’s introduction and the fact that the market was pretty saturated with surplus subguns at the time. As far as muzzle climb and controllability, I can out shoot most people with a semi-auto pistol out to 50 yards. In fact during military testing it was noted that it was extremely controllable,more so than the M16. The trigger is heavy but that is not really a bad thing on an open bolt gun. I assume that your assesment was based on shooting a mag or two through it. Or was it from an article? Now to my vote for worst full auto is the Chau, Chau, (I forget the spelling) It was a French gun in 8mm Lebel. Looked like a highpowered Sten with a halfcircle mag with big holes cut out to let dirt in. US adopted it in desperation in WW1 converted to 30-06. The cartridge was too powerful and beat the gun to death quickly. My second choice would be the M14 in full-auto. Great gun in semi, but too light in full auto.

Sleuth
September 27, 2002, 04:50 PM
JamesAZ, The MP5 does NOT have a rotating bolt! Never did - it locks by two rollers that move into receses in the reciever as the firing pin moves forward.

As to the worst MG, it has to be a Chauchat (WWI French design, forced on the U.S.) I didn't actually shoot it, the owner laid down fired about 10 rounds of 30-06 (a near record for continuous fire with one), and offer it to the rest of us. We saw his bloody elbows and the 6" grooves they left in the dirt - no one took him up on the offer.