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View Full Version : Anybody else annoyed by the newest IDPA rulebook?


Handy
July 25, 2002, 07:53 PM
I'm speaking specifically about the changes to classifications last year. The original classes for autos could be summed up like this:

SSP: Stock guns of the type now issued to military and police. Manual safeties unnecessary, mainsprings at rest, lighter calibers, no speedy custom touches.

ESP: Cocked and locked and customized weapons in light calibers. Weapons and handling for the expert user and aficinado. Ostensibly, a seperate division because these weapons should handle and shoot faster than their SSP bretheren.

CDP: Heavy recoiling guns like 10mm and .45. Kept seperate due to their slower shooting, harder hitting chamberings.

This seemed like a pretty logical approach. Here's what they did in the new rule book:

SSP: Same as before accept you can now add more custom stuff as long as some pistol of the same make comes with it. Largely an advantage for Glock users who decorate their "stock" guns with parts from IPSC designed G34/35 series match guns. Despite a relaxed mainspring mandate, there is no minimum trigger pull, so some Glockers are down to 3 lbs.

ESP: Now the "anything single action" division. Regardless of trigger pull weight or actual trigger utility, anything that has a mechanically single action first shot is stuck here. This includes the very Glock like Springfield HD and tiny HK P7, which are now grouped with customized Brownings and .38 1911's.

CDP: Formerly the big bore division, this has become the .45 ACP club. This is particularly senseless since even heavier recoiling guns like 10mm and .40 Super are now shooting with the 9mm's in SSP and ESP.


What started as a way of keeping the game fair with a stock division, gamer's division and heavy division has become a farce that encourages Glock gamesmanship in the SSP division and punishes those who choose unusual trigger designs or more lethal calibers. This seems like a departure from the "street smart" mandate of IDPA and seems to largely reflect the Glock/1911 bias of the directors.

I shouldn't have to say this, but I like Glocks and 1911's and own both and this is not an attack on those platforms. It is an appeal for reality in a reality based game.

dsk
July 25, 2002, 08:42 PM
I guess reality-based games are becoming like reality TV shows. The title is an oxymoron.

Mike Irwin
July 25, 2002, 11:00 PM
I fear IDPA is going the way of games like PPC and sporting clays.

A small group takes over and moulds it into what it things it should be, when in reality it's what that small group WANTS it to be.

Some of the IDPA rules have NEVER made sense to me.

GunGeek
July 26, 2002, 04:10 AM
I go to IDPA for the practice, not to win, I could care less if the raced out gun beats me, if my times/shots get better I am happy.

Some of us don't have access to ranges where we can practice this stuff ourselves.

Navy joe
July 26, 2002, 07:34 AM
Darn gamers are takin' over!

Give up and come to USPSA, we're all gamers and proud of it. :D

9x45
July 26, 2002, 10:10 AM
A bigger problem is that the power floor is based on gun division, and not on caliber. You can run a Glock 21 in SSP using 230 gr bullets going 544 fps, or you could run a G21 in CDP going 718 fps but with only 9 rounds to start.

There has never been a minimum trigger pull weight specified. Some of the trickier Glocks are down to 1.5lbs

Mikul
July 26, 2002, 10:50 AM
I don't see how a 1911 should be placed into a different catagory. This is supposed to be practical, and a bad guy practically doesn't know the difference between a .44 magnum and a .13 caliber. He only knows if he's been shot.

If they want divisions, how about: Revolver, Race-guns, and Everything Else.

Right now, there are so many divisions and classifications that when I show up for a match, I'm the only guy shooting in my little cubicle of IDPA.

I don't much understand the reasoning behind Master, Expert, Sharpshooter, and Marksman. Who cares?! There are no prizes and IDPA actually discourages it.

RickB
July 26, 2002, 11:22 AM
The original rules were intended to allow fairly stock guns to be competitive (although how a gun is competitive, I don't know; it's the person pulling the trigger that is or isn't competitive), when loaded with factory ammo. That's why 9mm, .38 Super and .40 were in one division, and .45 and 10mm in another. Obviously, as more and more people enter the fray, some of them cross-overs from IPSC, there was a demand to alter the rules to suit the people who are shooting the sport - I think the rules changes really do reflect what the shooters want.
If someone is carrying a Glock with a 3# trigger, why should they be prevented from using it in IDPA? When someone can load their 10mm down to 165pf, how can HQ justify barring .40 from CDP? That is, why was a 165pf bullet from a 10mm in one division, and the same bullet at the same speed in another division if it's shot from a .40? Now, .40 caliber bullets are all in the same division. That sorta makes sense. It's not the solution I'd chose, but I suspect there are a lot more shooters wondering why .40 isn't allowed in CDP than there are 10mm fans wanting that round back in CDP.
People do put "gamey" stuff on their carry guns, so banning it doesn't really make much sense. I'm sure bull-barreled 1911's will be allowed soon, too.

444
July 26, 2002, 12:26 PM
"Give up and come to USPSA, we're all gamers and proud of it. "
True enough, however the problem is that we already have a "gamer" sport (USPSA). If you want to shoot a race gun, shoot USPSA. If you want to push all rules to the limit and see just what you can get away with, shoot USPSA. I always hoped that IDPA would leave that relm to USPSA. I am a gamer. I don't shoot IDPA or USPSA for practice, I shoot them because I like competition and I give it my all to try and win every match I shoot in. I try to do it with a bone stock gun, but that is my way of gaming. I would like to be able to be competitive with a bone stock gun and that isn't going to happen in USPSA, but I enjoy shooting that sport anyway.
I was listening to a discussion of the rules governing cowboy action shooting. I got a kick out of the fact that they have the same discussions and the same problems as I have encounted in other shooting sports. Rather than just bitching, I offered a solution to the whole problem. Why not have one equipment rule. The gun has to meet the requirements of IDPA as far as being a production gun with X number having been made etc. and beyond that it must be shot bone stock. No modifications what-so-ever are allowed. None. Nada. Zero.

Neil Casper
July 26, 2002, 02:20 PM
444,
I think I like that idea!:cool:

swampgator
July 27, 2002, 01:57 AM
Then people would complain about the better shooters winning all the time and want a "teardown," ala stock car racing, of the gun to verify all the parts are stock and the trigger pull is standard.

444
July 27, 2002, 06:39 AM
True, but that could be worked around. You could establish a "reasonable" trigger pull weight, meaning that either the factory specifies the trigger pull, or you establish the weight by actually weighing a number of factory guns and determining approx. what weight they come. If you find someone that has a gun that is grossly out of spec. he is DQed.
Obviously, my suggestion is not without it's problems also. Just as it is now a certain amount of enforcement would have to simply rely on your honesty.
Another option would be like in VMBAR. You can make any mods you want, as long as you use the factory parts. That allows you to do a trigger job within the bounds of what can be achieved with the stock parts. That is probably more reasonable. And easier to enforce.

WESHOOT2
July 27, 2002, 10:05 AM
It always, regardless of game, boils down to skill.

It ain't the gun, nor the (stupid) rules.

Wanna make it so only completely stock production guns may be used? Okay, I'll bring my Baer/STI/Rock River/Casull/etc.

Price limit?

Parts?

Still the same complaints.........

Don't whine; just shoot.
I've alway been annoyed at IDPA rules.
I shoot IPSC.
I am not a 'gamer'; I am a shooter.

Handy
July 27, 2002, 02:30 PM
What I find frustrating is that they actually changed the rules to get further away from the ideal.

The reason for having different divisions is to encourage shooters to shoot what they carry yet still enjoy being reasonably competitive within they're class. Why shoot a Beretta with a tuned 10lbs. trigger when you could shoot a Glock with a 3lbs. trigger? But would you actually prefer to carry that Glock? Same thing with caliber; while you might carry full load 10mm, what's encouraging you to compete against 9mms with it?

The new rules are a disservice to shooters who want both the practice of "realistic" shooting and a little thrill of fair competition.

444
July 27, 2002, 02:55 PM
WESHOOT2
I can't agree with you. Skill is the lion's share of the game, but the gun does play a role. Especially in IPSC. The reason I say this is because I have shot a stage with my stock gun, then shot the same stage with one of the guys race guns. The difference is incredible. I know I am not shooting to the full potential of my gun, but I know I could drastically improve my scores with a race gun. I don't think you can buy a win, you still have to have the skill to go with it. But, having really good eqipment and decent skill is always better than having poor equipment and decent skill.
I also don't agree with the whining comment. Participants that are trying to improve their sport isn't whining. Of course one persons constructive discussion is another persons whining I guess. I personally don't think that trying to improve something that is important to me is whining.

WESHOOT2
July 27, 2002, 05:10 PM
This year a Mass. club hosted IPSC matches at the S&W Academy.
A few were won by a Production division shooter.
There were over seventy shooters at each of these matches.
Some are very VERY good.
Overall winner shooting a Minor-scored 10-rd max Production gun (Glock).
NOT gun; shooter.

"Whining" = complaining about stuff.
I too complain about stuff. I admit I'm guilty of whining a bit (IDPA), but I can't complain seriously because "the worst day of shootin' beats the bvest day of anything else".

Only way to improve IDPA is to turn it into IPSC :D :D :D :D

(Open vs not Open = 5% (tested by top shooters on Classifier stages; not a 'guess'.)

For me it might equal 10-20% improvement in score. But it doesn't, not in actual practice. 'Course, my 'racegun' wears iron sights.......

smoney
July 27, 2002, 11:32 PM
Which rule book are you complaining about the LGB (Little Green Book)?

weshoottoo would his name happen to be Dave Sevigny ( sp?) :-)

i shoot a beretta with gamer grips, trigger job, etc on it, i also have a trigger job, ( some non stock grips) and a slick holster for carry.... and its the same make of gun.

If sports didn't have rules they wouldn't be sports now would they?

Don45cal
July 28, 2002, 05:45 AM
I am going to my first IDPA match today. Being a non member I am shooting as a novice. I have my application filled out and ready to turn in at the meet.

I started reading the "Rule Book" on line. WOW!! Talk about a long list of rules for something that is suppose to be for the average shooter, with the average gun.

It will be a week of Sunday's before I get this figured out. Luckily for me, the people responsible for my attending today are really great. I have every confidence they will work me through this transition.

WESHOOT2
July 28, 2002, 05:48 AM
He good.
Real good.

Goin shootin RIGHT NOW.

357 Redhawk? Or 9x21 Witness?

(Taking both, natch.):D

smoney
July 28, 2002, 09:16 AM
Grrrr, always rubbing it in, i would be off to an IDPA match but have to go to an Ex girlfriends wedding reception. Sadly there is no leagal way to combine the two.

444
July 28, 2002, 12:12 PM
WESHOOT:
I have seen you mention that before, and it is certainly a hell of an accomplishment. That is why is needs to be mentioned. Something like that doesn't happen every day. But, in my mind, it doesn't change a thing. I instead have to wonder how this guy would shoot with a race gun.
There are a number of guys out there that are so accomplished as shooters that they can win at the highest levels with an out of the box gun. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't be better with another gun.

smoney
July 28, 2002, 12:46 PM
well, that has happened to me a few times, i shoot production, and IDPA SSP, i thought. hey, if i shoot a limited gun i can do better, it holds twice the rounds, and scored major. WRONG. i found out that once you get very used to shooting what you shoot, deviations are not something you want.

once you get to a master level, and sometimes before, YOU are your only competition, because you want to shoot the match with the fewest mistakes possible. generally shooters beat themselves when the skill level gets close.

when you aim to do your personal best, you can still walk away happy, win or lose, and i think its pretty fair to say, that even top shooters lose a good portion of the time.

WESHOOT2
July 29, 2002, 04:54 AM
Absolutely true.

But against reality (and we're talking Open vs Limited) the actual difference was about 5%.

Production vs Open? We'll get to check that this year as Jarrett is shooting a good amount of Production. Then we can use Classifiers he's shot in both Divisions to compare hit factors.......

444
July 29, 2002, 07:05 AM
I will be interested in the results.

the duck of death
August 2, 2002, 10:00 AM
You shoot against like guns in your division--quit bitching.

smoney
August 2, 2002, 11:13 AM
DOD, divisions and classifications are merely water marks emposed by those who don't want, or can't strive to be at the top.

there is only one winner, after that its first loser, second loser Etc.

Just because a friend shoots a 45, or Browning hi-power doesn't mean we won't compete when i am shooting a beretta.

snokid
August 4, 2002, 03:19 PM
The thing about the different classes that you need to take in to account for is that a cdp gun can only have 9 in the gun to start and the ssp&esp guys have 11. so there's this stage where there are 5 targets that require 2 shots a piece. the guys shooting esp&ssp will beat the guys shooting cdp because of the reload.

so you can't automaticaly say the beating everyone at the match is the only way to measure your skill level....

allow 10 rounders in cdp and problem solved....

now you only need what three levels of classes

master
intermediate
novice

no divisions...

does the gun fit in the box?

then shoot it....

simplelistic I know but the rule book could be a piece of paper then....LOL

have fun
sno

smoney
August 4, 2002, 05:55 PM
simple solutions only work for simple things,

the origional IDPA rule book was a simple 8 pages.

there will always be more people out there trying something that they think MAY give them an advantage.

if you don't like it don't do it.

the duck of death
August 6, 2002, 06:53 PM
The stages are to be made 6 round friendly. Like divisions compete only with that division. I shoot SSP, I don't care what the ESP or CDP divisions do. Read the rule book.