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skoonz
July 25, 2002, 03:39 AM
Hi guys

I'm wondering what Martial arts you would recomend for a bouncer. We were taught a few basics by the company (reverse gooseneck, universal arm bar etc.)

I'm looking for a lot of bars, locks etc. I used to do Seido Karate but it might not be the best for work with the possible legal ramifications

I've been searching town and narrowed it down to Hapkido, Aikido or Jiu Jitsu.

kungfool
July 25, 2002, 08:38 AM
skoonz........I have a friend who has worked as a bouncer. He's not martial artist. He is big. He is with an armored car service now.

Here's been my experience when I used to go out "clubbing" in my youth.

Most popular clubs would have anywhere from 3 to 6 "bouncers" working the joint at once. Seems like they would sit the biggest of the bunch at the door.....as a friendly reminder that muscle was on the job.
However, if an altercation actually broke out 3 or 4 of the smaller bouncers would swarm in and separate the mellee (sp) as the big one would work his way over for any heavy lifitng.
The floating bouncers in one club I used to frequent had a system. they would come into the altercation from diffeent directions and divert the attention of those involved away from each other.
I used to hang out at a place called "The drifters" in El Paso, Texas.....a clubhouse the Bandito's there owned and operated........never any bouncers.......the customers took care of any problems, in other words, they took care of their own.
Any grappling skills will augment your striking skills, but from what I've seen a plan that coordinates all the bouncers in a club works well.

C.R.Sam
July 25, 2002, 08:49 AM
Kumgfool makes a good point.
Multiple minds, coordinated, easier to control the situation with less chance of getting anybody hurt. Either side.

Sam

TaxPhd
July 25, 2002, 12:03 PM
While I am a huge fan of grappling skills, a bouncer wouldn't want to take a fight to the ground - way to risky. Stay on your feet. Arm bars and 'come along' moves would be high on my list, and these can be learned from Judo, BJJ, etc. Muay Thai or Western Boxing to learn how to punch, and perhaps more importantly, how to take a punch.

Good Luck!!

Toadlicker
July 25, 2002, 12:39 PM
The most common moves in the bar I worked in was a strike to the throat with the web of the hand, the kick in the shin/back of knee with the inside edge of the shoe/boot, finger poke in the hollow of the throat, and wrapping one arm around the patron's neck from behind whilst pushing their lower back forward with the other and quick-marching them out the door. For the most part, awareness of developing situations, multiple bouncers obviously watching an unruly patron, and not touching people if it can be avoided prevent things from starting. Grabbing or shoving someone unnecessarily often starts an altercation that wouldn't otherwise occur.

C.R.Sam
July 25, 2002, 06:56 PM
Real easy to get real fatal with some of the above.

Sam

madgrad
July 25, 2002, 10:20 PM
I'll add to Taxphd's post- Krav Maga.

Also, a good idea to stay away from the ground, as it can lead to the unruly patrons friends kicking the life out of you, or him pulling a knife, a really ruining your life.

Awareness, and strenghth in numbers is a good thing. Remember, it's better to quell a potential problem in the begining, than fisticuffs a drunk A-hole later.

Demi Barbito
July 26, 2002, 10:58 AM
You have got to learn clinch, ground and CQB. The training must be structural and dynamic.

Control Tie ups
Chokes
Takedowns
Counter Takedowns
Ground Positions (BJJ)
Submissions

CQB striking
Long Range striking

...and that's a fact.

Demi Barbito
The CSPT - www.DemiBarbito.com

hoyos00
July 26, 2002, 06:37 PM
Boxing is probably the best bet, learning how to strike and to take a punch are important. Most people don't like the idea of getting bloodied up, so a strike to the head will solve a lot of problems.

You definitely don't want to go to the ground, although it doesn't hurt to know some grappling - I say this as someone who studies Brazillian Jiu Jitsu. Going to the ground is well and good if you're fighting one person - in no holds barred fighting like UFC, nearly all the fighters know a lot of BJJ - but if you're in a bar, and you go to the ground and have the guy in your guard or mounted, you're going to get beaten by the guy's friends who will jump you.

Best to stay on your feet with strikes and chokes.

Mannlicher
July 26, 2002, 09:29 PM
Krav Maga, meaning "contact combat."
All well and good, but I like 'non contact combat' much better.

I also just stay away from bars like that.

Borf
July 26, 2002, 11:40 PM
Hrmph - my .02...

Being a big boy (6'6" - 270lb and in shape at the time) during the great collegiate experience - I decided to seek employ at the only place nearby where the fillies plied *themselves* with libations of choice. My observations:

A gentle manner avoids the majority of confrontations. As mentioned above, there are usually several guys working the floor. Split up the folks causing problems, make the guy think you're on his side, and get him outside. Works like a charm. Problems come from bouncers who want to fight. You don't want to fight - you want to prevent it. Get 'em outside.

Occasionally more force is required. Read above - there are other guys there. Smother, restrain, and get outside. Chances are the trouble maker is just being a dumb fool. That doesn't deserve getting his joints smashed.

If it actually comes down to defense, then by all means do what is required. Grappling, wrestling, sobreity, and superior numbers should cover your needs. If that's not enough, then find somewhere else to bounce 'cause that place is not worth it :D

KPS
July 27, 2002, 07:27 AM
I agree with Sam on the neck holds.There was bouncer at the local strip club here that had grabbed an unruly patron around the neck and actually sat on his chest until he calmed down.Unfortunately it killed the patron.

Spectre
July 27, 2002, 06:42 PM
Toadlicker, welcome to TFL. I lived in and 'round Atlanta for the past six years. Which bar did you work?

When I was working with KC Security there (at Fusion or Warehouse 960, usually) we usually were very, very polite. If it looked like there would be a problem, all free hands would converge, and the Sup would politely ask the offending party(ies) to accompany him outside.

Grappling skills are very good, but people skills are even more important, mostly.

---
Just relax, and have a good time- you're scaring the customers.- Jay Casey

Double Eagle
July 30, 2002, 05:12 PM
Forget about striking patrons, that's a great way to end up in court. Boxing is exactly not what you want, because you will fight the way you train and you will end up facing someone standing in the dock with a face that looks like hamburger meat and a lawyer asking why you punched his client three times in the face and knocked him out.

Earlier on someone mentioned web-of-hand strikes to the throat as being a suitable technique for a doorperson. This is absolute nonsense: what a great way to ensure that you run the risk of killing or maiming someone... there are easier and safer ways to set someone up for removal.

What a doorman needs in his toolbox of techniques is totally different from what a private citizen needs. As a doorman you are under suspicion immediatley when someone goes crying to the police crying heavy-handedness. As such, I would recommend steering away from combatatives-type arts or heavy striking arts.

Owners and managers are more apt to hire football or rugby players than martial artists or boxers. Martial artists are an unknown quanitity, they may be very good or they may be rubbish. If they are good, they may end up breaking someone's joint or busting someone's nose, which is not what is wanted.

Rugby players are familliar with hard contact, generally are very large and powerful, and are more likely to push and manhandle someone out the door than break them up with strikes.

What is desirable is simple control skills. Judo or another form of standup grappling allows you to vary the force used, provides controls and takedowns as well as if necessary heavy-duty restraint in the form of chokes or strangles. The successful door teams that I have worked with swear by crosstraining with a focus on standup grappling.

Spectre
July 30, 2002, 09:23 PM
yup-yup. Nice sig line, btw.

TaxPhd
July 31, 2002, 10:55 AM
For the most part, I agree with what has been posted. Judo is great - I've played on and off since I was 7. However, what Judo doesn't do is prepare you to get hit. There is a learning curve associated with how to slip/take a punch and Judo doesn't teach it. Punches that a boxer would take in stride will leave many Judoka dazed and confused, if they are not used to getting hit.

Non-striking comealong and control moves are great, but Judo is somewhat limited in those applications that are effective while standing. Going to the ground for a bouncer is a bad thing. While I agree that striking is not the best course of action, there will likely be circumstances where it is necessary, and learning how to deal with a striker and how to take a punch are absoulutely necessary.

Bogie
August 2, 2002, 10:55 AM
Martial arts aren't necessary, and in many cases can be dangerous. If you take someone down, you can cause lasting damage, which can equal a lawsuit...

Place I used to work, if someone started a fight, security would watch the cash register, watch the door, and THEN would try to separate the individuals involved. If you "fight," then you are inviting a bar fight. Just grab the folks, get between 'em, whatever. If someone pulls a weapon, get away from 'em, and the cash register would handle it. Never saw that happen.

Verbal generally worked best.

EMS dude
August 2, 2002, 08:27 PM
Before I got into the rescue buisness, here in Atlanta I worked the door at some of the local stripclubs and the one skill that helped me the most was a pocket full of free drink tokens and a little basic Spanish. ;)

Shawn3879
August 4, 2002, 11:10 AM
Boxing is probably the best bet

Yea. . .if you want to get fired. . .then you and your bar go bankrupt from the civil suit that follows. Throwing punches is a last resort and you usually wait until you have them in a spot w/o witnesses so that he just "fell".

Best to use multiple, large, sober and alert guys. This will go along way with most drunks. Wrist locks & arm bars work well. Watch for knives!

P.S. Don't apply the mag light to their head! Might kill em'! :D

Cowgunner
August 9, 2002, 10:31 AM
if the bar is dim a surefire to the face would also be a good was to subdue some one.