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LASur5r
July 12, 2002, 07:21 PM
When put in a compromising position where you have to defend yourself, but not use lethal force....what has worked the best for you?
Kicking? Gouging? Throwing? Fast punch? What has worked successfully?

Most of the time, running has worked well, but lately I have this condition which has made me gimpy legged. Suggestions?

Blast
July 12, 2002, 10:09 PM
All of the above like a mad dog;)

SamH
July 13, 2002, 04:58 AM
Firstly, discretion. Diplomacy worked in 90% of occasions I've been in.

If he makes a move, then ensure that it is the last one he will make before he hits the floor. Connect a hit, any hit, and keep connecting until he cowers on the ground like a cold puppy. :mad:

As far as specific techniques are concerned, I've found an elbow to the head, or a kick to the groin + [insert secondary hit here], works well. :)

C.R.Sam
July 13, 2002, 11:57 AM
! Depart
2. Diplomacy
3. Non lethal not an option, an accident.

The three levels of confrontation.

Sam

boris_01
July 14, 2002, 08:23 PM
Understanding that you mean what works physically, putting aside the obvious, common sense descretion and diplomacy. A lot of people overlook simple techniques like fingerlocks, wristlocks, etc. Most fights or threats of fights start from pointing fingers, pushing and grabbing. But someone who intends to hard from the get go, has no need for much finger pointing, pushing or grabbing. If they intend to harm, they will most likely deliver a strike immediately. In this case moving to avoid and/or diverting the blow allowing yourself time to flee or counter. I suggest looking up info on "Small Circle Jujitsu" by Prof Wally Jay. Prof Jay has a couple of books out and I'm sure a website. Prof Jay is Jujitsu, but does not focus on ground techniques and grappling and most schools seem to now. Small Circle Jujitsu has grappling and ground work, but does not overlook the more obvious finger locks and wrist locks. And believe me, it is more than just grabbing a finger and twisting. There is technique.

Kalindras
July 15, 2002, 08:19 AM
is "Rabid White Wombat Fu."

Essentially, when confronted with a situation I can't talk, laugh, run, or buy a drink out of, I go lunatic, in a mildly controlled fashion. It seems to work for me, in the absence of being an utter bada$$ (which I will gleefully admit that I am NOT.).

For some reason, it seems to me that martial arts are no longer the "Silver Bullet" that they were twenty or thirty years ago. Practically EVERYONE has studied something or other, for at least a few weeks or months. Enough to recognize when someone else is using it. IMO, that can be a good thing, or a bad thing. I'll explain:

Good thing: BG recognizes the style, and has had bad experiences facing it in a ring. BG has heard that it's a real "Spine Cracker" style, and meant to maim. BG figures you know more than he does.

Bad thing: BG recognizes the style, and has been trained to counter and overwhelm it. BG recognizes the style, and sees that you aren't a master, yet. BG recognizes the style, and has always wanted to see if it was "Really ALL THAT..."

Thus, although I've trained in four or five styles, my combat tactics couldn't be easily penned into any one of them. I'll kick, punch, bite, gouge, grab, and use anything I can get my hands on to do the most damage I can humanly imagine. My reasoning in this situation is that 1) The situation has progressed past posturing or talking, and the opponent means to kill me, and 2) It is better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six.

In a way, it's like a friend of mine taught me. Learn a variety of techniques. Learn them until they're second nature. Then assemble them any way you want, when you need it. If you don't have to think, don't have to plan what/when/how you're going to proceed in a fight, then your opponent will have a lot less time to react or to counterattack.

Finally, realize that you're going to get hit. You're going to get hurt. Get over it, or give up early and save your energy for healing. Once you can master your fear of the pain you MIGHT feel, you'll find that you actually experience it a lot less. At least, that's been my experience.

My two coppers.

Kal

:D

Rickmeister
July 15, 2002, 08:46 AM
I haven't been in a fight in ages. Not since junior high. And I frankly don't remember how I won it.

In the years since, I have come across as non-defiant (in situations where the potential aggressor is in a "passive" mood) or fully prepared (when the aggressor is scanning the field and sizing people up). And it must count for something; because I am writing this, here and now, with no scars to brag for it.

I might add that a strong build makes up for my not-so-intimidating 5' 9" frame. And since around here the average goon measures 5' 8", weighs a mere 140 lbs, and has ½ the upper-arm circumference that I sport, I don't fit the bill as one who is likely to be an easy prey.

I took Judo some years ago, but I believe that it will do little to save my hide if and when the punches are flying. So when the chips are down, I will use any and every means at my disposal; whether that be kicking, gouging, throwing, fast punch, sticks, stones, chairs, bottles...anything. BG isn't going to abide by any rules of the trade, so neither will I.

That's my final answer.

Erich
July 15, 2002, 09:03 AM
I suppose, Discretion, Diplomacy, and an Eda-Koppo applied where needed. It's amazing how a little pain from a little stick can change the direction and focus of a troublemaker.

Rickmeister
July 15, 2002, 09:22 AM
On this same note, John Farnham has written an excellent chapter in his equally excellent book: The Farnham Method of Defensive Handgunning. I highly recommend it. Particularly Chapter 1, where he states:

"A fighter will make a good accounting of himself. He will seek out and exploit to the maximum every weakness of his opponent. He will not win every fight, but he will earn the undying respect of every opponent. He is dangerous with any weapon; even no weapon at all. He has skill, intelligence, and good equipment. But most of all, a good fighter has heart."

"Here is where the difference between martial artist and fighter often become muddled. There are many martial artists who may have studied at length several oriental fighting styles, yet would have their ass handed to them readily by even a fledgling fighter on a far lower skill level."

Yes..."The world is full of educated derelicts, gifted losers, and affluent washouts. But there was never a good fighter who didn't have heart."

'Nuf said.

matthew temkin
July 15, 2002, 10:08 PM
A y of hand blow to the throat ( some call it the web of hand strike) is fast, non telegraphed and very effective. It is the only blow to the throat that will not cause serious injury. I have been on the giving and recieving end of this blow (more giving than recieving) in my 20 years involvement in law enforcement and security work.
PS..I never had much luck with joint locks. At least not when the guy was really resisting. And I am a BB in ju-jitsu.

Soujurn
July 16, 2002, 04:03 AM
Many times in a fight, the other person is under the influence of something or other that interferes with their perception of pain and fear. Movements and holds that rely on pain to force compliance often fail to work on these folks. Add blood, sweat or some other liquid to the mix, making the skin slippery, and you can pretty much forget those finger, thumb or wrist locks, etc.
And if they have some experience and strength, they can oppose your moves long enough to deliver a head shot with the other hand, or kick you in the knee. I've seen it happen. I think of fighting as a last resort sort of thing. I will accept any insult but I won't let someone put his hands on me or mine. An open hand jab to the throat will halt forward movement allowing for a follow up strike or kick.
If someone is close up in your face and you can't get away, go for the eyes, throat, and knees. Learn how to snap that ACL, and I dont care how big the guy is, he is going down when his leg don't work no more. Remember, your untrained opponent will make all the mistakes you need to take them out. The most common is getting close to you, shoving their chest at you in a bluster of macho, "...bring it on, bee-itch!" effort to induce fear.
Keep your head, don't look in the eyes, and strike their nose with an elbow, or jab the throat, then kick them in the nuts as hard as you can. And put your whole weight into it. And follow up with multiple strikes. It ain't like the movies where one guy hits the other and then waits to see the effect of his punch. Think combinations.
Finally, practice some sparring or boxing where you can get hit a few times, so you can know what to expect. Most anyone can learn to take a punch from someone who doesn't hit you in a nerve plexus.

September11
July 16, 2002, 10:42 AM
What works best is what you practice most...
If you do not train to respond, you are resricted to your body's natural reaction... which is not alway so good. You don't have to take a life time of self defense classes, just get a heavy bag, or book from the library and practice specific moves, like the punch to the troat.

wingnutx
July 16, 2002, 03:34 PM
A y of hand blow to the throat ( some call it the web of hand strike) is fast, non telegraphed and very effective.

Similarly non telegraphed is rigid, splayed fingers straight into the eyes. Doesn't even have to be that hard, just fast. Then you can run or strike something else.

Bogie
July 16, 2002, 04:10 PM
Do not hit someone in the head with your hand, unless you know an orthopedic surgeon very well.

We're primates. We use tools.

kungfool
July 16, 2002, 04:18 PM
wingnut.....................could you explain this quote to me? I am a little slow and am not sure I am perceiving it as intended.





If you choose to carry a pistol, you relinquish your ability to defend your honor from common scumbags.-GRD, thefiringline.com

Don Gwinn
July 16, 2002, 09:42 PM
If some jerk wants to have a fistfight over, say, your refusal to sing his favorite team's fight song with him, and you're not carrying a pistol, you might get away with popping him one.

Once you start carrying a gun, other considerations come into it. If you allow yourself to be drawn or taunted into a fistfight while carrying, you have several problems. He might find your gun and disarm you. Then what do you do? If you're lucky you get your gun back before he (maybe accidentally) shoots you or someone else with it. Then you get to explain it to the police and probably lose your CCW. If you're not lucky, you or some innocent bystander gets shot. You are held responsible. And really, you are.

Alternatively, your gun might fall or be knocked out of the holster during the scuffle. Same outcomes.

Or he might begin with a fistfight and elevate the level of violence until you feel compelled to draw and shoot. If that happens, you will have to explain why you voluntarily entered the fight. Many will say you suckered him into a fistfight and then shot him. Everyone will say you should have walked away.

So with a gun comes responsibility. We all know you shouldn't get into fistfights if you can help it with or without a gun, but we all know people who do it. If you carry a gun, the stakes are too high, so you have to let things go even if you wouldn't have done so before you started carrying.

That's the long version. ;)

kungfool
July 17, 2002, 11:36 AM
Thanks Don........As you know, I would never enter into a fist fight over anything other than an out and out attack on my person or on someone I perceive as not able to defend themselves. Hence, I did not draw a direct line to CCW and petty arguments that can almost always be deflected without violence.

Now I fully understand the quote. Anytime someone posesses the tools or skills that make them much more capable to cause harm to another then they absolutely must recognize the neccesity of restraint in almost all confrontations. That way of thinking is so ingrained in me that I failed to see the obvious.

wingnutx
July 17, 2002, 03:33 PM
Kungfool-

It means that you have to go out of your way to avoid confrontation, even responding in kind to a verbal insult. I liked the quote so I stole it :)

Most anti-carry types assume that gun carriers will be swaggering bullies, which make that quote even more of a gem.

LBC
July 18, 2002, 09:12 PM
My last two personal confrontations I resolved quickly by grabbing the person's throat with a straight left arm and gently squeezing (their bodies were against immoveable objects and my body was turned 45 degrees to the right to avoid a groin strike.) The persons were quite surprised and immediately ceased agression.

I used the same technique on a 110 pound male dog when he attacked one of my dogs in my backyard. He lunged at my dog's throat, I offered my right elbow (which he took -- still have the scars) and grabbed the dog's throat with my left hand, throwing him to the ground (I got sudden strength) and throwing an arm bar across the dog's throat. He IMMEDIATELY went wide-eyed and passive.

Mannlicher
July 20, 2002, 06:20 PM
I have found through the years, that a combination of smooth, even talking, making it known that you are really willing to leave the area, and having your hand on the butt of your .45 Colt Commander work wonders for getting you out of a situation that has suddenly 'gone south'.

Oh, be sure you watch their hands. Their eyes wont kill you, but their hands will. Never take your eyes off their hands.

sox
July 21, 2002, 08:52 AM
Don, great point. The one aspect I feel is most important is physical conditioning. Most of us as we age, get complacent and frankly don't exercise. Oh we talk a big mouthful, but when it comes down to it our bellys are huge, backs creeky and arms flabby. For example, at 6'1 210, I was about 30lbs overweight. Yet, I by no means looked obese. So, my guess is you should aim for enough cardiovascular reserve to flat get it on full tilt for 15 minutes. Be able to at least bench press your bodyweight, and be flexible. A martial art in my opinion offers several advantages: The first is it offers both conditioning and technique. Secondly, as you progress in the arts your head gets smaller-a good thing. In that I mean you become wiser, more tolerant, etc. Oh, If you haven't exercised in quite a while, it would be worthwhile to be evaluated by a cardiologist before beginning in any strenuous exercise. Goodluck.

Blackhawk
July 21, 2002, 08:04 PM
Attitude.

It's kept me out of more scrapes than ANYTHING else.

I have a "don't mess with me" attitude evident on my face from my stare to my body posture to my command presence and voice. It says "I don't want trouble, but I'm not going to put up with any from you either."

When you combine that with good humor and respect for others, people just don't mess with you. You're likely to suddenly be their best friend.

Don Gwinn
July 22, 2002, 10:08 AM
Yeah, Sox, that's me, but I'm working on it. ;)