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Dr.Rob
July 2, 2002, 06:01 PM
Ok here is the deal:

A friend of mine who lives up in the hills had his pet goat killed by a Mountain Lion a month ago. I advised him to get with the DOW here in Colorado to do something about the cat, as he also has two big dogs and a small child living in his spacious mountain retreat. (The kitty was literally in his back yard) The DOW offered him some safety tips and offered to send him some RUBBER BUCKSHOT.

Now I might be whislting dixe, but lately there has been a rage in "rubber buckshot' for up close "tactical" and LETHAL use, rather than the old "stingball loads". How do you tell which is which?

Main reason I asked is that given a lion chewing on your dogs/livestock and or loved ones.. would you use rubber pellets or?

Let's ASSUME its illegal to kill the critter.. a "bean bag round" will serve the same purpose, and even at close range isn't lethal the way "rubber buckshot" is, and is slightly more accurate (at close range).

Or would you go with a pepper spray round or some other exotic?

Cracker shells?

Like I said this just came up in conversation, and it's meant to be serious.

Andrew Wyatt
July 2, 2002, 06:29 PM
rubber buckshot might be okay for relatively close ranges, but I'd rather stay the hell away from something with teeth on it if i were going to **** it off like that.


perhaps some kind of "rubber rocket" round (a single fin stabilized rubber projectile) backed up by brenneke slugs to give yourself a little more standoff capability would be your best bet.

Al Thompson
July 2, 2002, 06:31 PM
I think this has two answers.. One, the rubber buck.bean bags don't seem to work very well. We had a suicide by cop a few months ago and they shot a bunch of the bean bag rounds with zero results. Ended it with buckshot. One solution may be a rubber round up first, some OO next. Hate to PO the cat and get charged without real bullets in the gun.

Two, how draconanian are the laws? Here in SC you can use lethel force to protect livestock against anything. (except probably theives) If he has some sort of statutory backing, I'd ditch the less than lethel stuff.

If he dosen't, the three S's come to mind. Shoot, shovel and Shut-up.

I know what my choice would be.

George Hill
July 2, 2002, 06:38 PM
Rubber Buck can have worse patterns than anything else and Beanies are innacurate.
Try the fin stabilized baton rounds. They hit harder than beanies because they don't flair open and lose velocity. You can fire them from longer ranges too (such as from your window). They will get the cat's attention pronto. I had a box and fired them up. Wanted to test them out. They work well. They always hit within 3 inches of point of aim out of my Nova.

Downside, you might have a kittie run off with crushed ribs and internal bleeding. The Baton rounds hit harder. A lot harder.

Hkmp5sd
July 2, 2002, 06:51 PM
If the big cat now equates this guy's back yard as his local McDonald's, running him off isn't going to help much. Any other menu options available, such as dogs, cats, children, etc.? He will be back. Kill him. Bury him.

George Hill
July 2, 2002, 07:20 PM
Have to agree to that. Snipe the ***** and bury it. Forget the animals... There is a child at some risk there. Shoot it and then if cops show up - show them the empty hull of the rubber pellet load. "Shot it with rubber buck and it ran off officer! Tell the DOW thanks for the shells for me."

PJR
July 2, 2002, 08:22 PM
I bought a couple of boxes of Sellier and Belloit rubber buckshot to fool around with and possibly use to run off feral dogs. I tried a few rounds against a couple of heavy cardboard boxes and at close range (10 yards) the pellets penetrated both sides of the box. At 20 yards, they just bounced off and the pattern wasn't worth speaking of.

Threatening children, dogs, livestock means I'm not going to putz around with something that might work only if I'm close enough.

Bowser
July 2, 2002, 08:49 PM
I would take the ammo the DOW sent me and either (a) remove the rubber shot and replace with lead, or (b) score it above the wad, so it hits like a slug.

That way when they find the dead lion you can blame the ammo they sent you.

:)

Dave McC
July 2, 2002, 08:56 PM
The 3S approach seems appropriate.

Shoot.

Shovel.

Shut up.....

Dr.Rob
July 3, 2002, 03:28 PM
Let me rephrase this.

There is rubber buckshot that is not lethal, and apparently there is rubber buckshot that IS lethal.

Whats the difference??? And how do you tell before unlimbering a three inch shell at a cat trying to eat your dog? IE will some kinds of rubber buckshot go THROUGH the cat and hit your dog/kid/goat whatever?

(and thanks for the info on the rubber rocket rounds, sounds like the ticket)

Andrew Wyatt
July 3, 2002, 07:53 PM
I've never heard of ribber buckshot that's as lethal as normal buck.

While rubber buck can be lethal undercertain circumstances, I'm not sure how it applies in this case.

olazul
July 4, 2002, 01:36 PM
Another option is paintball/pepperball.

The pepper balls are shot out of a basic paintball gun and will be more accurate than the beanbags. They are basically a paintball filled with pepper spray. Another option is a water filled paintball. They are used for pain compliance and they really hurt- much worse than a paint ball.

I don't know if this stuff is available to citizens or not. If not then a few paint ball shots(did someone say frozen?) to the head or torso would probably work.

Olazul

woodland
July 4, 2002, 01:47 PM
I worked in a drilling camp in remote Ak, and we had bear problems. One in particular was a 250 lb black bear. Canadians were running the camp, so were VERY pc. "We don't want to hurt the nice animals!" :barf: Well, long story short, after it had tried to enter a couple tents, and broken into the food tent,( he really had a thing for snickers bars) they still did not want to shoot him even though F&G recomended it. He was shot many times with bean bags, and he would just come right back. Finally, I ran into him outside our parts shed, and he didn't seem to want to leave, so I ventalated his cranium with a 350 gr .50AE from my Desert Eagle. That worked a lot better than bean bags. :D

foghornl
July 11, 2002, 02:01 PM
My kids/pets/livestock in danger? Shoot the "rubber ducky" load and keep the hull. Next up is Real Lead Buckshot or slug.

"...I hit him with the rubber ducky load, and he just snarled at me...."

nsf003
July 11, 2002, 04:13 PM
This is a joke.
Don't fly off the handle andrew.


Easy answer.

LIGHT HIS ASS UP!!:cool:

Use 12 Ga Dragons Dreath rounds. Shoots a fireball for 100 yards.

DRAGON'S BREATH

A 12 gauge cartridge loaded with exothermic metals that ignite when fired and propel a fireball BLAST over 300 feet! Known as the "three second flame thrower"! Dragon's Breath has been used for psycological warefare, signaling and dramatic aerial effects. Our MOST POPULAR exotic 12 ga round!! (Haz-Mat Handling Required) (Cannot be shipped to Florida, California, Iowa, or New York City & Boros.)

Load it after the rubber buckshot. It should sound like this. Pop, Pop, It's not working. Pop. Lets try something new. BOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMM.

Cat? What cat?


nsf

See the attached pic for the Dragons Breath in action.
----------------------------------------------
go here for the DB round
http://www.allpurposeammo.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.100.exe/shop/12db.html?L+scstore+wnwy7049ffc81ac8+1032803252

Andrew Wyatt
July 11, 2002, 06:00 PM
no offense meant, but that is probably one of the worst suggestions i've heard.

"fireball" rounds are inhumane and ineffective.

lighting a feline up with one of those rounds would sentence the mountain lion to either a lingering, agonizing death, or it would leave him scarred.

neither one of those things are morally justifiable.

Quartus
July 11, 2002, 06:14 PM
A .308 is morally justified. So is a .45-70.


It's an animal threatening children. No contest.

Andrew Wyatt
July 11, 2002, 06:50 PM
yes, but both of those rounds actually kill mountain lion.

12 gauge "fireball" rounds, well don't.

burning an animal to death that hasn't eaten a family member yet is pretty morally reprehensible, and more than likely illegal.

nsf003
July 11, 2002, 07:01 PM
Uh, it was a joke Andrew, lighten up.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: It's a JOKE. It's not a real suggestion. You didn't really think that I would give a firemaking device to someone in colorado, they have enough fires already.(isnt it the state with all the brushfires?).


nsf

Quartus
July 11, 2002, 07:08 PM
What would you actually use one of those for, other than 4th of July or a genuine mob-at-the-door scenario?


As for the cat, rubber rounds of any kind sound like absolute folly to me.


3S.

nsf003
July 11, 2002, 07:11 PM
Use them for fun. If you want to show your friends a flamethrower, they are a good alternative instead of buying a real one. Their site has a few other cool rounds too.


Don't use rubber buckshot, cats can move very fast.


nsf

m14nut
July 12, 2002, 04:31 PM
Do you think the Mountain Lion would,even for an instant, feel bad about eating your kids!
Don't feel bad about killing a nuisance animal, or you will end up a meal.:rolleyes:
Don't end up a Bunny hugger:barf:

MitchSchaft
July 12, 2002, 07:14 PM
burning an animal to death that hasn't eaten a family member yet is pretty morally reprehensible,

LOL, He thought you were serious!

Quartus
July 13, 2002, 07:24 AM
Wait a minute. <shaking head> I just realized what he said.


burning an animal to death that hasn't eaten a family member yet is pretty morally reprehensible,


YET?

So we should wait til that happens then THEN burn him to death?


If there is a credible threat, I don't care HOW you kill that kitty. You kill the kitty.

nsf003
July 18, 2002, 03:14 PM
Damn straight.


nsf

herr bean
July 19, 2002, 03:32 AM
Well, I'm sure this will be a rather unpopular post, and maybe you'll be able to come up with some cute names like bunny hugger for me, but I have to disagree with what most of you have said in reference to killing it. Mostly because it just seems rather unnecessary.

To be honest, it really doesn't seem like the lion is as much a threat to the child as you all make it out to be. First of all, mountain lions hunt primarily at night, when they child will most likely be inside negating any threat, and the same thing should go for the dogs. Just keep them inside the house at night as well, and there shouldn't be any problems.

And just in case you gusy think I'm just spouting off, I live in an area that has mountain lions fairly frequently in the winter. They've been on the deck on the back of my house, and hunt geese on the lake behind my neighbors yard when it freezes in the winter. We've also had bears in the area, with one in a tree about six feet from our front door when my mom and brother went outside one night. Just about every year we hear about somebody's dog getting eaten by a mountain lion, but more often than not it happens when they leave the dog in the back yard and then go out for the night. People that keep their dogs in the house at night generally never have any problems with the cats. And I can't think of any time in the past five or six years that we've lived here when a child has been attacked.

Andrew Wyatt
July 19, 2002, 06:40 PM
I'm inclined to agree to a certain extent. If there's a clear and recognizeable danger to family members and whatnot, by all means kill it.

however, if ltl means suffice to keep it away, that's an acceptable solution.

I object to the use of force that is inhumane and ineffective. If you're going to do the job, do it right. you owe the mountain lion and yourself that.

Mannlicher
July 20, 2002, 06:42 PM
Hkmp5sd and George Hill are on target here. Driving this marauder off may work for a week, but if it senses a meal, then it will be back.

Dead cougars don't return. They are easy to kill, and only a bit harder to bury.

Problem was calling the Game and wildlife folks in the first place. Now they will ask questions................

nsf003
July 20, 2002, 06:53 PM
Problem was calling the Game and wildlife folks in the first place. Now they will ask questions................

You got that right.


nsf