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Old Sourdough
June 30, 2002, 01:24 PM
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I've often wondered just how easy it is to knock someone out without permanently damaging them. In the movies it looks easy to "pistol whip" someone, but I think tha hitting them on the jaw is the best bet.

What do the experts think?

C.R.Sam
June 30, 2002, 02:00 PM
Not to be used unless one is prepared to use lethal force.

The line between unconscious and dead is often very fine. Some degree of permanent damage is the rule rather than the exception.

Sam

Tommytrauma
June 30, 2002, 02:29 PM
If someone sustains head trauma significant enough to alter their level of conciousness, there is an excellent chance of permanent injury or death. My sister died of a subdural bleed, 48 hours after being knocked out and regaining conciousness.

If you need to know more about the physiology involved, drop me a PM or email.

bastiat
June 30, 2002, 02:44 PM
I think it's only easy in the movies.

Although I believe I saw a movie once where the technique didn't work...even after repeated applications.

ATeaM
July 1, 2002, 12:08 AM
I'm curious, why would you be concerned about brain trauma if you had to knock someone out ? Liability ? Or are you just trying to pull a really funny prank on your brother ?

The chin is the target for a fast knockout. Some Kung Fu guys swear by blows to the neck or back of the head.

woodland
July 1, 2002, 11:35 AM
The vegus nerve which runs from the back of the jaw at a slight angle forward, down the side of the neck, is an excelent knock out target, and cannot cause any brain trauma. The back of the neck is also a very good knock out, but there is a risk of neck injury there. The side of the neck is a pretty safe target for unconciousness. And actualy it doesn't take all that hard of a blow to do it, either.

RobRPM2222
July 3, 2002, 03:15 AM
blood chokes (strangles) are an efficent, quick way to make someone pass out quickly. They can be done from a standing position (rear-naked/mata leo or side-arm choke, or if your opponent has heavier clothing, not t-shirts, you can try some gi chokes) or on the ground.

Problems- while nobody dies of blood chokes in the competitions that use them frequently (UFC/MMA, BJJ, submission grappling, Judo), several people have died from use of blood chokes in the real world, mainly when done by cops.

Now, most cops are VERY poorly trained in blood chokes in comparison to most competition people, if they are trained at all (many departments have banned the technique. ) They tend to end up using too much force on a finesse technique, and frequently cause severe damage to the windpipe, which produces more serious damage than a well-executed blood choke does. In additions, cops frequently "pile on" to arrestees, causing damage to the abdomen area that can also affect breathing. This can be a double whammy.

however, there are more factors that weigh in that affect someone who is more skilled in the use of chokes. Many of the people that end up dead from a policeman's choke were also on drugs or alchohol at the time. Since many people who will attack you on the street will also be on drugs, this is something to consider.

blood chokes, if held on long enough, are lethal. Most well-trained people, even in adrenalized situtations, will let go long before the point where permanent damage occurs. However, if you hold a choke for more than around 30 sec after a person goes unconcious, you are risking permanent brain damage to that person although it usually takes longer for the person to get damaged. holding a blood choke beyond a minute is risking death for the person, although it usually takes up to two minutes or longer for that to occur. note that I am being extremely conservative on the choking times, but you should be too.

the final thing to consider is that in competition martial arts where chokes are taught, there is the option to tap out or verbally submit. On the street, you are going for unconciousness, screw someone tapping on your arm. This may have an effect on lethality as you are not going to release the choke as most people do in the dojo, although plenty of people would rather get choked fully unconcious in the dojo instead of tapping, and none of them have died yet.

chokes are not good in a multiple attacker situation. While a good blood choke is generally faster than a good windpipe choke and can effect unconciousness in a 3-10 second span while not generally having the same risk of causing resperatory failure, it still leaves you at risk in a multiple situation.

I have heard from a doctor that people over 40-45 with bad cholesterol-filled diets or cholestorol problems are also at risk from being choked until unconciousness, as this may dislodge artierial plaque that can have nasty effects on your body, however the doctor was not familar with the body of medical research work done by doctors who also practice judo and have made a medical study of chokes, and these doctors have not mentioned such a situation. I don't know who is right on this one as I am not a doctor- you investigate and make your own decision.

in addition, in most places in the U.S. chokes are considered lethal force techniques. Use them at your own legal risk.

kungfool
July 5, 2002, 12:33 PM
I have been knocked out one time. I have witnessed half a dozen others. (Mine was street related) The others I have witnessed have all been kicks to the head.
As someone in here pointed out there are varying degrees of being knocked out. I have seen a competitor come back around very quickly and some that even with the amonia caps under their nose, were slow to wake up. Not in any of these cases was the knock-out to the chin.

In every case, it was a kick delivered to the side of the head/neck area. It actually takes less force with a kick than a punch to knock someone out because of the weight of the leg involved in delivering the "shocking' blow that makes the brain collide with the skull causing a temporary loss of consiousness.

I am not saying that a knockout cannot be lethal. I am not saying striking the chin cannot cause a knockout. I am simply stating what I have experienced in my martial arts journey.

(RobRPM2222).......excellent explanation of choking vs (what was refered to me as "the sleeper hold".) In my youth I had it done to me several times and done it to at least a score of other people. One time I was out for twenty minutes. Scared the hell out of everyone there. I think it's amazing none of us ever caused permanent or serious damage to each other. I am a martial arts instructor and have taught that technique to two people, my son and my wife. (Though I have met "civilians" (non-martial artists) who know the technique.