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View Full Version : Ever meet someone who would't use the 'the kick'?


bastiat
June 27, 2002, 07:03 PM
George Hill's 'Roshambo' comment reminded me of a discussion I had a few years ago.

I was talking with someone who stated they wouldn't use a kick to the groin during a fight. They thought it wasn't "correct" in a fight.

No matter how many times I and another person (who was a black belt in some art or another) tried to tell him that it's best to end a fight in the fastest manner possible, he wouldn't budge.

Have you ever might anyone who had this incorrect idea of 'noble fighting'? Does anyone here subscribe to it??

SDforce
June 27, 2002, 07:08 PM
I've done martial arts my whole life. A kick or knee to the groin would be one of the first things I'd do if able to. There's no such thing as "noble fighting" on the street.

I doubt the other guy would let you get up after being knocked down or give you a standing 8 count.

LawDog
June 27, 2002, 07:48 PM
If you're in a fight, and you aren't cheating, then you aren't taking the fight very seriously.

If you're not taking the fight as a deathly serious matter, then the other guy is going to nail your scalp to the barn door.

And it isn't just those old love hammers to the groin, either.

Somewhere out there, there is a young man who got a-hold of one too many modern grappling tapes -- probably Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He took exception to me deciding to toss him out of the club he was wreaking havoc in, and I got over-confident and was playing with my food when he got me down and was applying one of those patented leg chokes. Was in the process of putting my lights out.

So I bit him.

Hard, high and inside.

*shrug* Kid decided that maybe that triangle choke might not be the best idea in the world. Gave me the opportunity to land a couple of elbow smashes and drag his semi-conscious butt to the curb.

The look on his face after he unwound that leg-choke was priceless.

LawDog

Bog
June 27, 2002, 08:04 PM
I quote from an English journal on fighting:

"In a land where lethal weapons are banned, you must assume that your assailant is there to kill you. No other standard holds water. The Marquess of Queensbury died in a nobler age than you stand in now.

Should a person attempt to engage you in physical banter, you must assume that his intention is to kill you - nothing more, nothing less. Code Duello is dead, and illegal to boot. So assume that any physical assault on you is meant in nothing but the deadliest manner. Reciprocate. Work to incapacitate at best.

The testicles are a wonderful yardstick as to whether or not your opponent wishes you dead. If he does, he will continue to press the attack even after a firm stamp on the those aforementioned dangly things. If he only wished you ill, he will drag himself out o the radius of combat, and I entreat you not to persue."

I love UK military manuals. They're so.... formal.

Spectre
June 27, 2002, 08:11 PM
Beautiful. With verbiage like that- and sound suppressors encouraged- I could think about moving there, if I could have my arms in tow.

CWL
June 27, 2002, 08:29 PM
Rules? In a real fight?

If it's serious enough to warrant fighting, just like gunplay, it'd better be serious enough for you to pull no punches.

I wouldn't, in general go with a groin kick simply because most of us are aware of this and are prepared for it. Knees, shin, inside leg, straight kick to hip and sweeps would be my likely areas for kicks.

Then again, I'm more of a grappler, gouger & head-butt kinda guy.

CP220
June 27, 2002, 08:36 PM
It seems to be a growing fad these days that people won't hit one another in the groin. I cannot understand it. My view of a fight is to hurt your opponent to the point where you can run away or to the point where they can not get up and cause harm to you or anyone else.

I "dropped the hammer" on a gentleman just last night. He was not in a large hurry to leave the bar when he was asked to, and when I went to go help him on his way to the door, he decided to get a bit frisky and try to gouge my eyeballs from their respective sockets. So I dropped the hammer hard and fast, helped him to the door, and I went back inside.

There are the few out there though that seem to have no reaction when hit in the yarbles. I suggest a collapsible baton for them:p

Bog
June 27, 2002, 08:48 PM
It seems incredibly simple to me.

Two rules:

1) Do not initiate force
2) When met wih force, overwhelm it.

There is no Code Duello; Therefore any fighting is fair fighting.

I say rip 'em off!

bastiat
June 27, 2002, 09:23 PM
It was amazing to me that someone could be so, well, stupid about fighting. We tried to pursuade him to the benefits of groin kicks, eye gouges, shin kicks (and scrapes) and throat punches. He didn't see it as 'fair'. Oh well, hopefully he'll never have to participate in a physical confrontation.

yorec
June 27, 2002, 09:23 PM
Naw - I wouldn't go for the gonads..... At least not as a first target - I'd be too busy trying to incapacitate an attacer by breaking or dislocating a knee. Knees are much lower down and easier for me to kick and more important to his ability to stand. However, if the knee isn't available and the groin is... Thump! Sucks to be him.

ronin308
June 27, 2002, 10:00 PM
I don't believe in the noble fight at all. BUT the groin would not be a primary target at all. It is NOT a fight stopper. Sure, it might stop fights sometimes but you would be surprised at how ineffective it can be. For example, when I was into TKD seriously, I was sparring and I went for a high roundhouse. The other guy was going for the same technique but to my midsection. His leg slid along my chambered leg and right into my groin. I finished the technique as if nothing had hit me. I put my foot right into his temple no problem. But when I stopped...OUCH! I was in immediate pain. The point is, I still have plently of time to end a fight stopping blow to the head right after I was kicked in the groin.

Don Gwinn
June 27, 2002, 11:44 PM
Hee hee. I visited a TKD dojang tonight and watched a black belt punch another in the manly marbles. The reciever was much older than the giver, and he dropped immediately. They were supposed to be sparring in what the instructor says is Olympic style, so hitting the groin is a no-no. But that's not the worst part. The worst part is that the poor kid was sparring his dad, so that's who he nailed! It was a complete accident, but not much of a late Father's Day present.

I signed up and start tomorrow. I won't kick people in the groin during sparring, but a fight is not sparring. I don't attack people. If anyone attacks me he should expect more than he can handle.

bastiat
June 27, 2002, 11:59 PM
Going for 'the jewels' isn't a 100% sure bet, but nothing is. I've read that a 'medium power' strike doesn't do as much damage as a heavy or light strike. I haven't done any experimentation to verify that, though :eek:

It's one of the three areas I'd look to strike first. After the first strike, I'd see if my other two options were available. And none of them are in the 'polite fighting' handbook. :)

Seeker
June 28, 2002, 02:43 AM
Saw part of "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" earlier tonight...
Butch Cassidy: OK but let's get the rules straight first..
Harvey Logan: Rules?! There're no rules in a knife fight..
Butch kicks Harvey in groin... Harvey drops to knees

Glamdring
June 28, 2002, 06:36 AM
IMHO the main target(s) with hand to hand are head or neck. My philosophy with hand to hand is that I really don't want to be fighting with my empty hands, SG/rifle much better, and I REALLY don't want to be fighting for very long. Head and neck are only targets that will provide a "one shot stop" so to speak.

Broken/damaged limbs and blows to the groin are something most people used to contact sports or fighting are used to dealing with. I have met to many people that played whole game of football or such with a broken bone or three to think that would stop a serious opponent.

On the other hand a solid blow to the head or throat with blunt object or elbow/forearm will usually work. Head/neck cranks and strangles are also very effective if applied quickly and forcefully. In combat situations a strangle isn't (shouldn't be) applied in a slow and controled fashion. Instead they are applied at the end of a combination after guard is raised or lowered enough just like you would puch to the head in boxing. In my experiance few people except for boxers and some experiance street fighters protect the head/neck enough. Judo people will protect their neck from direct strangle attacks but they are not prepared for head/ neck crank (head/neck crank=joint lock to neck) or a serious attack to the eyes. The boxers are used to defending against punches not cranks or strangles. Exception would be kick boxers.

vertigo7
June 28, 2002, 07:40 AM
During my freshman year in college, I was sitting in the student lounge studying alone late one night (big mistake on my part, never repeated). A guy came in and stood over me demanding some money, holding me down on my chair with a hand on my shoulder, and reaching for the knife pouch on his belt with the other hand. I gave him a solid punch to the groin and he went down like a sack of potatoes. I held him facedown on the floor with my knee planted on the back of his neck (not at all gently :D ), yelling into my cellphone for the campus cops who showed up in record time.

I've noticed that in some so-called "women's self-defense classes" the ladies are instructed to pick a target like eyes, throat, ears or fingers and rake/scratch/yank with all the strength they've got, rather than go for the groin, as it's a target that's instinctively protected by men. I don't care if the other guy thinks I'm playing by the rules or not, anything is a fair target.

vertigo7

Betty
June 28, 2002, 09:23 AM
While fighting, groin kicks are one of my favorite targets. My brother knows that.

And when I look at my one year old niece, I think, "Thank goodness I didn't leave any permanent damage!" :D

foghornl
June 28, 2002, 09:41 AM
My only fighting rule is to escape with as little damage to me as possible, maximum damage to other party (ies)

gryphon
June 28, 2002, 09:49 AM
If you get into a fight, there is no such thing as fair. There is only the modecum of degree of whether or not the use of deadly force is necessary or disabling is necessary. Same rules for hand to hand apply to a gunfight and vice versa.

Anyone who tries to spout "noble fighting" or "rules" has never been in a real fight and is best that they never do as they will most liely become a victim and not a survivor.

Toadlicker
June 28, 2002, 09:57 AM
"The only dirty fight is the one you don't win"

-Kelly McCann

To further comment, though, I have taken knees to the groin, and they didn't do a whole lot. The other guys I used to bouce with all reported similar experiences. Someone who's a bit of a berserker will likely issue a grunt and keep right on fighting. Groin shots seem to work best on the uncommitted or the surprised. ;)

stinger
June 28, 2002, 11:01 AM
Ever noticed that a slight bump against something (table, chair, whatever) is sometimes much more painful than an all-out assault on the jewels.

Worst gobber-shot I ever took was in a high school b-ball game (pickup game no less). I went up for a rebound. I must have been 12-13 feet up because I was flying man :D . Anywho, on the way down, my landing was padded from a fellers shoulder-to-hip region. I slid all the way down. I don't remember much after that. :mad: :o :( :confused: :barf: :eek:


Thanks for the ear,

Stinger

rennaissancemann
June 28, 2002, 11:35 AM
Kicks to the groin hurt... nobody disputes that, but they're not a incapacitating blow. I've known too many guys, myself included, who took a shot to the nuts and stayed right in the fight. Go for the knees and break 'em down.

ronin308
June 28, 2002, 01:04 PM
Someone who's a bit of a berserker will likely issue a grunt and keep right on fighting. Groin shots seem to work best on the uncommitted or the surprised.

Exactly.

Erich
June 28, 2002, 02:17 PM
I'm with ronin and Toadlicker.

It's very hard to land the perfect hit, and even then it's no 100%er (tho probably nothing is). Anyone who's seen a few scrapes has seen such a kick not work. I just made the comment over at BladeForums that most of us fellas got so adept at protecting the jewels while learning to ride "big boys' bikes" that it might be difficult to land a kick on The Boys while we're asleep. All the more so when the intended target is expecting some sort of attack.

Not saying that it's wrong to tryif the opportunity presents itself, of course; I just think there are usually better shots available.

ThePatriot29
June 28, 2002, 07:36 PM
I agree with much of what has been said. I believe in a fight I would go for a groin kick or punch, followed promptly by strikes to the knee, or elbow if faced with a punch or knife thrust, kind of best of both worlds.

A friend of mine was playing Ultimate Frisbee, jumped up, caught the Frisbee, coming down some guy's knee hit his groin. He threw the Frisbee, ran to the endzone, collapsed, got up again, collapsed again, and lay there for a while until he limped into my dorm room asking if Ibuprofen helps when you've been kicked in the nuts. Not incapacitating, but he's a pretty tough guy.

Skorzeny
June 28, 2002, 10:01 PM
LawDog:

Was that a "triangle choke" (Sankaku-Jime in Judo)? This is often cited as a prime example of a sportive technique that should NOT be used in a real fight - because it puts the mouth of the defender perilously close to the attacker's groin. Also, it is possible (before 2-3 second lights out time) to pick up the attacker and slam him down (neck first).

In Kodokan Judo, as soon as the defender is able to pick up the attacker, the bout restarts. Recently in a UFC match, Matt Hughes (I think) was being triangular choked by Carlos Newton and was about to lights out when he mustered the last second strength, picked Newton up and slammed him down as he was being passed out. Both were out, but Hughes recovered first and got up, winning the match.

BTW, did anyone see an episode of "King of the Hill" when Bobby learns "women's self-defense," goes around kicking everyone in the groin and becomes the school bully? The principal's reaction to Hank was classic: "now Hank, you can't just have your son going around kicking everyone in the nuts!"

Skorzeny

Rickmeister
June 28, 2002, 10:26 PM
"You mean...you and I will lay down our weapons and then try to kill eachother like civilized people?"

---Westley to Fessik, in The Princess Bride (1987)

LawDog
June 28, 2002, 11:59 PM
Skorzeny, sort of, except he didn't have my arm up and the choke locked around my neck and arm for a proper sankaku-jime. He had his legs wrapped around only my neck -- which made it rather easier to lay a fang or eight into his thigh. :D

His look of total shock that I would stoop to biting in a fight was priceless.

Well, it was up until he caught those elbow shots into the temple and jaw hinge. :D

LawDog

illuminatus99
July 1, 2002, 01:53 AM
if I'm in a fight it's because the guy wants to kill me so bad that I can't talk my way out of it, I'll even take a punch without hitting back if I deflect it enough to not do any damage. that said, I have no problem biting or going for the groin, I've got really sharp teeth and it wouldn't be difficult for me to take a chunk out of someone. most of the fights I've been in though were stopped when I told the guy that he hits like a little girl and should go practice if he wants to fight me that bad.

fix
July 1, 2002, 09:24 AM
The groin area is probably the hardest target to hit on a man. We are taught to protect it from birth. You should set a higher priority on other things, but if the opportunity presents itself...let 'em have it.

buzz_knox
July 1, 2002, 09:28 AM
The kick (or crush grip if necessary) is always appropriate in a real fight where the point is to survive. In practice/play fighting, it's not appropriate unless you really want to win at all costs. I've done the latter and apologized profusely afterwards (although my father learned to never put me in a headlock again).

Bogie
July 1, 2002, 11:30 AM
One thing that folks don't expect is for you to reach down and grab 'em. Not necessarily fun, but it works really well, and allows you to suddenly have their undivided attention.

Byron Quick
July 3, 2002, 05:43 PM
I saw a plainclothes cop use an interesting techique once. He slammed his open palm into this guy's groin, grabbed, twisted, and pulled straight up. Simultaneously with his other hand, he struck the guy in the throat with the web of his hand and grabbed. Both the strikes were rather light as was the grip on the guy's throat. What really had the mojo on it was the grab, twist and straight up pull on the nads. The guy jumped about two feet in the air, the cop assisted his flight, twirled him head over heels and slammed him into the sidewalk. End of fight.

I've been in a fair number of fights. No one's managed to nail me in the groin since childhood. I assume that others can protect themselves also. Therefore, I go for other targets.

Quartus
July 3, 2002, 05:59 PM
Levi's (or similar) with a snug, but not super tight, fit, will do a fair job of absorbing a kick or a grab. Especially if the legs are spread. This will stretch the material, causing it to act like a shock absorber. (If it's too loose it won't do that.)

In that situation a kick is a wasted move at best, and an opening for the other guy at worst.

BTDT.

Dave McC
July 5, 2002, 05:04 AM
I guess I had around 200 Uses of Force during the 20 years I worked in some of Md's toughest prisons.

A coupla things....

First, during the worst of times, I wore an armored supporter along with a Second Chance vest.
The vest saved me from a sucker punch during a major disturbance. I responded properly and $%^&*( up the perp.

As for the groin,kicking same leaves one close to toppling over, since it's so high off the ground.
A knee's a much better target.

As for rules of engagement, there are but two.

1, WIN!!!

2, Always follow Rule 1....

Najdorf
August 11, 2002, 11:45 AM
Lawdog,

It sounds like he tried to use techniques beyond his skill or training, and you capitalized well on his mistakes.

As you know, your opponent made several errors....working the guard in a bar fight would be high on the list...but also he should have never locked in the triangle without the arm in the proper place (to do so means that it is not really a triangle choke and the person can not only bite but counter/pass to the side mount as well, and it is difficult to choke him out that way unless he allows it). If done correctly- If your own arm had been pulled across your throat and locked in, its very difficult to bite anything since your own arm is in the way. If a person in your triangle starts to bite, and is able to, which in my experience people can't effectively, you can always change a triangle into an arm lock since you have the arm. If due to some major error on my part, someone in my triangle bit down and locked his teeth, I would typically instantly use my thumb to to push into his eyeball until he released, which he would quickly. The force of my push would depend on if I was injured by his bite and to what extent. Of course, to avoid his triangle attempt in the first place, you have to keep your back straight.

Najdorf
August 11, 2002, 10:16 PM
p.s. changing the triangle to an arm bar has the added benefit that if he wants to keep biting as his arm is breaking, the only thing that he will be able to bite is your ass.

fourdeuce82d
August 12, 2002, 08:01 PM
"...only thing he will be able to bite is your ass."

Don't know thing one about grappling, but that reminded of an incident w/a guy who was drunk, had a short man complex, and could box a little.

Kept pushing it, wanting to slap fight, even though I was begging off- dancing around, "ding!" "ding!" "ding!"

Grabbed him, picked him up to my face level, ass in my face...latched on *hard*.

Like some other poster said, the look on his face after I dropped him was priceless.

Najdorf
August 12, 2002, 08:58 PM
lol. great story four...but in general, if getting bit stops a person, they weren't much of a fighter. I've seen a lot of bites, and felt a few, but I've never seen a good fighter quit after one.

I have to say, the ass is the one place where I'd rather take a bite than give it.

Zander
August 15, 2002, 12:20 PM
And when I look at my one year old niece, I think, "Thank goodness I didn't leave any permanent damage!" :D -- ROTLNo kidding...that is one beautiful child.

Kirk Keller
August 15, 2002, 12:42 PM
Are you still tucking your nuts into your sock?

I was raised to believe that you never start a fight, but you always finish it, and that if someone is trying to cause you physical injury, anything and everything you can do to cause them to cease and desist is perfectly fair.

FYI... the worst shot in the nads I ever took was from behind. A young lady who didn't much care for my choice of dates came up behind me intending to kick me in the butt really hard. She missed and I must've gone 10 feet up in the air. :eek: I instinctively turned around launching a vicious right cross and caught her square on the jaw before I realize it was a her. She went down hard (out cold, jaw broken in 3 places) and I lay on the ground whimpering and trying to catch my breath for at least 20 minutes. :barf: The toe of her Justin Ropers (I'm from cattle country) just happened to catch Mr. Rightside dead center... I felt bad about the whole thing after I could walk again, but felt no remorse whatsoever while I was on the ground... The twist? She and I ended up going steady for the next three years. :rolleyes:

kungfool
August 15, 2002, 02:07 PM
quite honestly.......in my experience...........the tesitcles are used to an attacker's disadvantage much better when grabbed and pulled/squeezed by a defendant than when struck. I have seen big bad ass bikers (drunk like a skunk) stare without blinking after another guy kicked him in the nads. Then the mellee begins and the groin kicker's girlfriend steps up from behind and gets a double handfull of the the kicked bikers jewels and begins trying to rip them off! The kicked biker blinked then, and bellowed like hell as he tried to reach around and then down to dislodge the hands that had seemingly welded themselves to his privates. (No, really, it wans't me and my girlfriend)

Sure, strike the nads, grab the nads...(I'm not gonna go so far as to bite them!)....but understand that it is not a one strike/grab solution to being attacked.......it's just for openers........a kick to the groin could well be followed with a palm strike to the nose, or any number of follow ups that may allow you to prevail.


One rule:......NEVER EVER kick someone in the groin and then just stand there to wait and see what they will do!

wingnutx
August 15, 2002, 09:35 PM
A smack in the nuts is a great 'startling' move, even if it can't be a fight stopper. Just follow up with something better immediately.

gburner
August 19, 2002, 10:53 AM
I agree with Dave McC...there are other targets of opportunity that present themselves more readily. I find that a palm strike to the nose can be quite effective in putting doubt in an attacker's mind. Knees,
shins,and various other joints are excellent targets for pain inducing blows or compliance holds. It was my experience that prisoners I worked with expected guards to 'follow the rules' when in a physical exchange and were surprised, even stunned when they encountered different. I'll take 'testicles for 100, Alex' if it's offered unprotected, but my preferred method is the grab and twist rather than delivering a blow
there. In agreement with others too. If an aggressor has chosen unwisely and leaves you no other choice than to protect youself physically, ALL options are open.

Joe Demko
September 23, 2002, 10:05 AM
Nuts..nads...yarbles...cojones...ballocks...goolies...stones...and the handling of same in combat. Let's discuss.
First, a couple quotes:
"You don't rough domy with nuts!" spoken by the neighbor malchick after a malenky devotchka from the neighborhood semi-accidentally fisted him in the yarblockos during an eegra of tag, O my brothers.
"...and then skvat him by the yarbles." govoreeted by W.E. Fairbairn at the conclusion of most of his rook-to-rook demos.
If I allow Your Humble Narrator to reach the point of being a participant in a drat, I consider the carman pool filly-set to be just odin possible target. Knees are generally a better bet, as our droogs have already pointed out. If I itty after Mr. Happy's nutty neighbors, I don't skvat them gently. Skvatty, squeezing, pulling, twisting, all have better immediate effect than a tolchok or rooker, in my experience. I once turned a 200+ pound bolshy chelloveck into Peewee Herman by reaching between his legs from behind and skvatty his package totale. He skippiwipped and danceywanced on tippytoes all the way out the door.
Do what is necessary to survive with like as malenky vred to your veck as possible.

Gomez
September 23, 2002, 02:32 PM
The concept of "fight" and the concept of "fair" are mutually exclusive.

I served in a National Guard Military Police unit for several years. NG units have a greatly varied makeup of people. A large percentage of us were former active duty soldiers. A large percentage were full-time (civiallian) law enforcement. And a certain percentage were young, college kids who had never had to deal with the Army, LE or violence in any real capacity.

Often we would have discussions, with "practical application", trying to get the idea that countervailing violence was the only exceptable course of action to violent attack. We had one young buck who steadfastly refused to accept the groin as a viable target. He also could not come to grips with the idea of the "bite" as a worthwhile tool and the mere mention of Mike de Bethencourt's knife technique was more than he could bare.

One of my associates, at the end of his wits dealing with the young man, exclaimed in a loud voice, as the new PL walked in, "GO****MIT, IF I HAD TO I'D BITE HIS F***ING BALLS OFF!."

The look on the PL's face was truly priceless. Unfortunately, I don't think that it ever quite clicked for young buck .

pbarrick
September 23, 2002, 05:46 PM
It's a fight, folks. And, since Kelly McCann is so quotable, "a fight, by it's very nature, is a struggle."

Mulitple, rapid strikes to the head/neck area (in order to rock the brain in it's brain-housing group) and from the groin on down are necessary to end fights.

I'll know that I've used enough strikes in hand-to-hand the same way I know I need to reassess when shooting--the aggessor hits the deck.

As far as kicks go, stomping a fallen aggressor's ankle, elbow, knee or hand is a good idea to guarantee my chances of a successful withdrawl.

The terms "fight" and "fair" are mutually exclusive...

vulcan
September 25, 2002, 02:33 PM
No such thing as a "fair fight", if a situation degrades to when physical violence is warranted, the idea is to end it asap with the least amount of damage to my body. I was told a long time ago, Kick em where they hurt or squeeze em where they squirt! A well placed kick to the goonies is effective( ask my ex girlfriend), I Couldn't stand straight for hours!

chris93473
September 26, 2002, 11:00 AM
to me a kick to the groin is just like a poke to the eye. jam ur finger to his eye socket and pull out his eye.

richhelton84
September 28, 2002, 07:28 PM
I'm not much of a fighter, but I have been in my fair share of fights. When I was about 15 years old, we lived in Puerto Rico (my father was in the Coast Guard), and we were the only "gringos" in the entire neighborhood.

One fight in particular, I was knocked to the ground (well, that happened in most of them ;) ). Anyway, I used my strong leg to kick the inside of the guy's right knee outward, and his knee snapped like a twig. I didn't hit him that hard, and it was completely on accident that I found out how to ruin someone's knee. The kid couldn't walk for weeks, but I never had trouble with him again. Shots to the nuts are extremely effective, but I just love kicking the inside of the knee.

If someone picks a fight with you, you shouldn't stop until they either don't want to get up (or are unable to), or they are unconscious. You shouldn't look for a fight, but when you are forced to, you gotta go "balls-to-the-wall".

Rich