PDA

View Full Version : Lube


butchb243
June 21, 2002, 12:38 PM
What oils & greases are best for care & functioning of your firearms?:)

BigG
June 21, 2002, 02:27 PM
I think Breakfree CLP is the best overall I've used. I also use a smidge of white lithium grease on a few internal parts of autoloaders or if I see a wear spot. Just a smidge.

S.F.S
June 21, 2002, 08:23 PM
I have used Break-Free in the past with no problems. But at the present time Im using Tetra as a lube I have not used it to condition the bore yet. But this stuff is the slickest stuff I have ever used :eek:
I have also used Slip 2000 in the past and was pleased with it, its not as slick as Tetra but things clean right up after using it.

I recently bought some G96 which is a CLP but have not had the opportunity to try it out yet.

I have used these lubricants in the past with no real problems.
Outters Gun oil (Too thin no longer use it)
Rem-oil (Mainly used for wiping guns down, occasionly to clean trigger assemblies and oil the bore after cleaning)
Break-Free (Still use it on occasion)
Slip 2000 (Currently not using it)
Tetra Lubricant (The main lubricant Im using at the time)

HSMITH
June 22, 2002, 12:03 AM
Break free will harden and gum up the action if used heavily, go easy on it and it is hard to beat.

If you need grease the Rig +P lube is hard to beat.

WESHOOT2
June 22, 2002, 08:05 AM
I use BreakFree CLP and TetraGrease on all my handguns, both autos and wheels.

I use TetraLube (skunk) oil to condition bores (yes, I actually rarely clean them).

This has proven successful for me, regardless of gun, in environmental conditions ranging from 95F to -25F, dusty/rainy/snowny/sandy/no-maintenance-except-more-CLP.

TowGuy
June 22, 2002, 11:35 AM
No Complaints with Break Free, I've been using it for a while now. On the recommendation of others, I've also picked up some Militec-1 and a tube of that TW25B. I haven't had the chance to "field test" it yet though.

TG

NAVIGATOR
June 22, 2002, 12:06 PM
I use BreakFree "LP" which is "CLP" without the "C" (cleaner)
for lubrication--works GREAT.

PKAY
June 22, 2002, 04:41 PM
I use a home brew of 3 parts STP (or generic equivalent) and 1 part Marvel Mystery oil (or combination to suit viscosity needs). Been doing this for over a year with great results. I clean the actions with WD-40 (I know, I know) and thoroughly dry with compressed air and re-lube with combo above. Does not dry out. Slick as snot and totally off the wall compared to what you'll read here. Do a search on lubrication and you'll get more chemical engineering treatises than you ever thought possible. Try a variety. I used to use a combo of Militech and 20wt. motor oil, but it dried out in the climate controlled safe within a couple of months.

NAVIGATOR
June 22, 2002, 07:38 PM
A synthetic motor oil, such as Mobil 1, is a good all-round lubricant that I use for some things like mags and mag-wells---good stuff.

I plan to experiment some more with it as the price is right compared to lubes that are sold for firearms.

stinger
June 24, 2002, 12:13 PM
I've never really used a bad grease or oil. Not to say that there aren't any out there (there probably are) but I haven't run across them.

Those carried by your local stores will probably work just fine. I prefer Hoppe's Oil and think that Remoil is verrrrrrry light.

When grease is necessary, I just use whatever I have around the house. Right now it is Quaker State.


Regards,

Stinger

drcohen
July 25, 2002, 08:29 PM
motor oils leave residue, and lack the performance of the right gun grease.

I took both the Glock Armorer's Course and a quickie with the Sigarms rep, and both instructors noted TW-25B.

Tried it. Love it. Less maintenance. Always in fire ready condition.

Chugach
July 26, 2002, 01:25 AM
BreakFree CLP has been a real eye-opener. I've been using it for about two years and have been most impressed with the way it prevents rust. My hands sweat easier than any other part, so that's a big deal for me.

The Cleaner, Lubricant parts also perform well. I've used it on semiautos at -10 to -15 F, and as long as you don't over-apply, things work just fine even if you let the pistols "cold soak".

TetraLube grease works well, but like many greases will get you in trouble at low temperatures.

hansolo
July 27, 2002, 09:54 PM
On the recommendation of a couple LEOs, I ordered Microlon Gun Juice: It is alleged to be a "dry" anti-friction treatment that takes a few applications to build up a molecular friction-free zone.www.microlon.com

UBoatCaptain
July 28, 2002, 05:04 PM
I use Militec-1 and this stuff is very slippery, wet and lasts so long. In fact, you can oil the gun and put it away for 12 months to see the oil did not evaporate. Falex Load Carrying Capacity is very high. Recommended factory lubricant on all Beretta firearms.

UBoatCaptain
July 28, 2002, 05:06 PM
Break-Free "LP" (Lubricant/Preservative) is very good. It does not evaporate like the Break-Free "CLP" (Cleaner, Lubricant & Preservative). Break-Free "CLP" was said to be the factory lubricant that Glock uses.

S.F.S
July 28, 2002, 05:20 PM
I have recently started using G96 Gun Treatment and am satisfied with its performance so far, it cleans better than Break-Free and has a pleasent smell it seems to lubricate pretty well also.
Dirt doesn't attract to it as much as it does with B.F. CLP.

I did a corrosion test with ocean salt water a few weeks ago and G96 didn't do all that well compared to B.F. CLP but then again I usually don't soak my guns in salt water for 24 hours either :D

Scott

switch625
July 28, 2002, 07:44 PM
another militec user, this stuff is slick. you will notice smoother cycling. benchmade also uses and sells it exclusively.

HankL
July 29, 2002, 06:28 PM
FP-10 and Brownells Action Lube Plus are all I use.

Romulus
July 29, 2002, 07:50 PM
Break-Free CLP even as lubricant only...if I went with grease in addition to CLP, I would use a good NLGI grade 2 grease, preferably synthetic base with a solid lubricant like teflon or moly, with the GC-LB NLGI service classification

hansolo
August 2, 2002, 10:10 PM
I have a friend who owns in the neighborhood of 70 firearms(!).
He claims to NEVER use anything except WD-40:eek: This stuff attracts crud like an electromagnet and turns to sludge in cold weather. The really wierd part is....I've been shooting with him several times(semi-auto pistols, revolvers, long guns...)ALL his firearms work and the guy is a darn good marksmen!

GO FIGURE!

Romulus
August 3, 2002, 02:39 AM
"...I have a friend who owns in the neighborhood of 70 firearms(!).
He claims to NEVER use anything except WD-40

Lucky for him him he won't live to see the day his firearms fail...a tribute to engineering and metallurgical sciences

the duck of death
August 7, 2002, 03:01 PM
Synthetic motor oil is used in race cars that turn 10-12 thousand RPMs I think its more than adequate for your banger. I've used it for years with good results and at $4 a qt at Wall Mart that's probably a life time supply. But you can throw your money away on those 2 & 4 oz bottles and keep a lot of people happy if you want to.

Firepower
August 8, 2002, 03:54 AM
Some of you may have seen this posting on the 1911 Forum, Brian Enos' Forum, and the pistolsmith.com Forum. I'll make the same offer here....

"To the shooters out there who are interested, I'd like to give YOU the opportunity to prove to yourself, at no charge, that Firepower FP-10 CLP IS the superior CLP that you have heard others and myself talk about (seeing that this is alright with the board admin as not to be construed with openly marketing a product for self gain, but to demonstrate to the shooters that are interested, that the quality and proclamations of a product {FP-10}, are indeed what the manufacturer says, giving the shooter the best value for his dollar and saving them countless dollars on "chance buying" due to rumor or "hear-say").

I would like to do exactly what I did on Brian Eno's Forum first, then on the 1911 Forum, and on the pistolsmith.com Forum recently, in hopes that many of you will take advantage of my offer and put the FP-10 to the test. I have given hundreds of samples of FP-10 away in these "Offering up of Proof" give-aways, with an overwhelming response of complete satisfaction and the majority of "takers" becoming FP-10 converts after using it. I do NOT give away a "lousey little blister pack" that doesn't contain enough product to even finish what you started. You will receive a full, 1 ounce, heavy duty bottle and applicator, which is a regular retail item (remember that MANY of the products of this nature come in a full size, 4 ounce bottle, that you pay a premium dollar for). Here's what you'll get...

http://www.fp10.com/fp-10-1.jpg

I will accept all emails requesting a free, "shooters bag" bottle of FP-10 (1 fluid ounce) for your own use and evaluation. I'll even pick up the freight on it all, and ship it UPS to your door. I respond to every email, personally to let you know that your request has been received, and that the FP-10 is "on it's way".

I have said for years, that I would rather put the FP-10 where my mouth is, and let the user see for themselves that all the talk in the world and high tech psycho-babble doesn't compare with the actual usage of any given product(s). That's where you separate the "Bull" from the "s**t", or on a lesser note, the "wheat from the chaff".

So those of you who have been in doubt or just curious to try Firepower FP-10 CLP...now is your chance. We'll bring it to you, free of charge.

Just email me at mpc@mpc-home.com or go to www.fp10.com and click on the offer there.

Dont forget to mention in your email, that you are taking advantage of the free offer (by me) on "thefireingline.com" Forum Board.

Wouldn't it be GREAT, if everyone could try any retail product first, before you end up spending your money on something that just didn't live up to the claims you read or heard about. I started this in the beginning of June, and there has been to my knowledge, only one other competitor to follow suit (see below).

Since Brad and Alan are giving away a sample too, why not go here (http://www.militec1.com), get one, and compare??

So what have you got to lose?...Go for it!!

Best regards,
George

Alex Johnson
August 8, 2002, 09:35 AM
WD-40 is my favorite, it's cheap (which is why a lot of gun companies who make oils and protective sprays caution against it's use) and it works. I always keep it around my shop and I don't hesitate to spray down a finshed rust blue job with it afterwards.

Firepower
August 8, 2002, 12:46 PM
Geeeze Alex, a free offer, and you are going to pass it up for WD-40? I must admit, you can't rub FP-10 on your arthritic joints with psycho-symatic results, but then again, that's not what the FP-10 was designed or intended for.....nor was WD-40 ever intended for firearms usage.

The WD stands for "Water Displacing", as it was designed for use on electrical circuits, and first being introduced in the late 60's and early 70's in the automotive aftermarket for displacing water in the ignition systems in distributor caps and sparkplug wiring. Then someone said, "hey, I'll bet this stuff would make a great lube", hence the saga of "anything that sticks or squeaks" began. After about $9 Million in advertising campaigns across America, and using the repetitive principals of "The Manchurian Candidate", we all stumbled around mumbling "...anthing that sticks or squeaks...WD-40..." and bought into it, lock stock, and barrell.

The evaporation rate of WD is pretty high, as after a couple days in the open air, most folks can't find a trace of it left. As for it's corrosion protection, well, there just doesn't seem to be a lot of good data out there with regards to that. As a lubricant with good anti-wear or extreme pressure attributes...nada again.

I'll make you a deal. Show me any "VIABLE" test data from an independant and qualified ASTM test lab that proves, that WD-40 is an "above average" lubricant, cleaner, or preservative for firearms, and I'll give you a lifetime supply of Firepower FP-10 CLP. How's that for "putting up"?

So, in the meantime, why don't you take the "FP-10 challenge" and just see what you have been missing (and what your guns have been missing) for years.
Come on....it's FREE....:D
You have nothing to lose.

Best regards,
George

UBoatCaptain
August 9, 2002, 08:39 AM
I have been warned plenty of times that WD-40 is NOT a FIREARMS LUBRICANT! Primarily because WD-40 can penetrate and ruin cartridge primers. It is not recommended for firearms - period. :(

Alex Johnson
August 9, 2002, 10:21 AM
Firepower, my answer is why should I. WD-40 has worked for me for years and I have no complaints. I've used it hundreds of times on guns when I clean and work on them and I've had no problems.

Alex Johnson
August 9, 2002, 10:24 AM
Can't speak for the missfires, I don't often experience them, than again I don't flood my guns with any oil or solvent either, a little goes a long way. Again I've had lots of experience with WD-40 and experience is better than say so, I don't doubt there are better protectants out there, but call me old fashioned WD-40 works for "me" and that's all that I'm concerned with.

Firepower
August 9, 2002, 01:09 PM
Well, Alex, that is your choice, absolutely, but I cant help wondering why an Industrial Technologist, such as yourself, would be so closed minded about giving something else a try, based on a no-risk, no-investment basis. Even the staunchest beleivers in a product would take such an offer, in hopes of either finding out something they didn't like about the "challenging" product, or mainly, to see if there IS in fact, something better out there that excels in every way.

I won't lose any sleep, nor am I upset over the fact that you didn't/wouldn't take the "Free offer of Firepower FP-10 CLP". I just feel you could be better served in your overall capacities with FP-10, especially on your fine firearms.

I admire your tenacity and deeply rooted stance in what you beleive in and feel comfortable with. If you ever get curious or decide you may want to give the 'ol FP-10 a whirl, ... mpc@mpc-home.com .

Best regards, Alex,
George

Shareholder Information Exchange
NASDAQ
Stock Quote (WDFC)
25.32 -0.46 (-1.78%)
Minimum 20 minutes delayed

UBoatCaptain
August 10, 2002, 08:17 AM
Alex,
Nothing for nothing (pun intended). I don't know George personally. However, I am been thru enough factory armorer classes to fill a book with technical data. I was warned several times not to use WD-40 - period! Maybe in a life and death survival situtation (and only to prevent rust) and starve the corrosive effects of climate on a gun. That is, if no conventional firearms oil was available and it was a choice (nothing vs. WD). WD-40 has been known to thicken and harden. I have had WD-40 destroy scope threads thru solidification (the threads welded shut) thereby ruining the scope. I have actually been warned in one armorers school to stay away from the stuff. Having used older bottles of FP-10. This stuff absolutely stopped any wear on the barrel of my Springfield Armory. On a molecular level, this stuff kills friction - period. I like the fact that George deals with the rust problem and engineers his product to protect steel from corrosion. Many lubricants do not. My only grip was the older FP-10 evaporated a bit fast. I hear the new version lasts a lot longer. It is good to be skeptical. But no one should be closed minded. BTW, if you ever exposed your firearms to climate and humidity. You may see the WD-40 thicken considerably. And the answer is no - I am not personal friends with George.

hansolo
August 10, 2002, 09:32 AM
:p As I posted a few days ago, my friend uses nothing but WD- 40 to "clean/lube" his firearms. Just for fun, I asked if I could see the innards on his Colt Officer's 1911: he took it apart. Well.........it's amazing the poor thing could still cycle w/o blowing up. It lloked like it had been in a mudslide. "Damn!," my WD-40-loving friend said, "This is not GOOD!" I happily pulled-out my cleaning-supply box and, while he took off, did my normal Hoppes#9, Breakfree job. I put-on my Wal-Mart High-Power reading glasses and looked in nooks/crannies for sludge. I saved as much as I could on patches/rags. I didn't reassemble the pistol. When my friend returned to his pristine Colt and looked at the black/brown crap that I got out of it, he looked a tad sheepish :rolleyes:

He put 'er back together and racked it a few times...smooooth!

'nuff said!

CAH
August 11, 2002, 07:27 AM
FWIW, I used Break-Free CLP for over a decade, and my only complaint was that it wasn't the best lubricant. In 1997 I decided to start testing different gun lubes. While I'm no scientist, I did learn a lot about tribology and such, mostly from the helpful folks at the various companies that I spoke with.

Well, after wasting several hundred dollars and lots of family time, I found what I think is the best lubricant, and CLP, on the market today - Muscle Products Firepower FP-10 CLP.

I've been using FP-10 for over a year now, on "everything that squeeks", from all my weapons to the doors on my truck. I am 100% satisfied with the products and the service from MPC.

Save yourself some time and money, and give FP-10 a go.

George, I can't believe I forgot to mention this earlier, but give my thanks to Amy for her help earlier this year, and most of all for her intestinal fortitude. Her ability to overcome the challenges dealt to her are a real inspiration. Her friends and family are blessed indeed! You go girl! :)

BTW, I've been posting here for over a year under my name, but I changed my E-mail and lost my password!

www.fp10.com

Best regards,
Clayton Hufford

Firepower
August 14, 2002, 12:28 PM
Hey Clayton!

I think we found our old friend, little t, "tribologist", from pistolsmith.com, under a different name (with a little d), drcohen !!!

Would you just look at the constant plugs for TW25B and bestdefense.com:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=375537


Compare it to this one:
http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=11402&start=20

By Jove, I think we have a Ringer

Give it up, drcohen, tribologist, or whoever you are, and you should really stop using the "phony" technical handles, just so people will think you "might" know what you are talking about. The real experts are distinguished by the correct info they can provide, not just going around parroting "TW25B" or "bestdefense.com".

I may promote my FP-10, but I do it with factual info which involves Chemistry, Tribology, Metallurgy, and Lubrication Engineering...and I send anyone who request it, a free bottle of FP-10 so they can see for themselves.

Let's see you give out some free samples to the folks of that TW25B" that you are constantly touting.

Put up, or shut up.

George

johnbt
August 14, 2002, 03:26 PM
Unfortunately, drcohen's posts over the years have probably cost TW-25B some sales. It really is good stuff. I've used it for three years on guns for pocket carry because the lint and grit easily blows or brushes off. Moving along to what I've read (and some name dropping), Larry Vickers has stated that TW-25B is the best for dry, dirty, dusty, sandy conditions.

I have a bottle of Shooter's Choice FP-10, but really need to use it a little more before pronouncing my undying loyalty to the brand. Meanwhile, it has worked extremely well on the few handguns(and one pump shotgun) I've used it on.

And lastly, I used WD-40 on my friend's duck gun after it went for a swim in the swamp. We couldn't find the one can of gun oil at the marina because he'd left it in the office when he was working on the stereo the night before. This was the only time I ever touched the stuff and I still feel guilty about it.

John

Alex Johnson
August 14, 2002, 03:45 PM
Alright Firepower, I'll give FP-10 a try. Being a bit closeminded is a problem of mine, but I guess it won't hurt to try something different. I still can't say that I have ever noticed any rusting on my firearms, but I guess I do take them apart on a regular basis for cleaning, so maybe I haven't provided much of an experiment. Anyway let's consider this arguement over, I'll try the FP-10, nothing more gets said about nasty old WD-40.

Firepower
August 14, 2002, 03:51 PM
Good for you, Alex :D

I don't "bash" other products, but only recommend what's is good for a firearm, and in doing so, use nothing but the facts, no matter what product it is.

I look forward to your email and will get you out some FP-10, promptly.

Best regards, Alex,
George

Firepower
August 14, 2002, 04:01 PM
Hey johnbt,

You are probably right on that one, in drcohen's postings, causing them sales losses. :D

I have no qualms about TW25B and it's abilities as a grease, but once again, grease is not recommended on a firearm's action for all the various reason discussed before.

Give that FP-10 a workout and you'll find out it's EP properties are BETTER than a grease, and you don't have the thick, high viscosity, semi-solid boundary lubricant characteristics to deal with.

Maybe you should email me ( mpc@mpc-home.com ) and get a free sample of the current FP-10 that meets the CLP MIL Spec. I'd be happy to send one your way.

Best regards,
George

CAH
August 14, 2002, 05:43 PM
My only qualms with TW-25B, which I've used quite a bit, is that it's expensive, difficult to use (compared to a CLP), and not the best protectant. FP-10 CLP is more effective than TW-25B, Tetra Gun, Break-Free CLP, RemOil, Mobil-1, G96, Sheath, UltimaLube, Militec-1, and every other product that I've tried.

Notice that George is the only person from a lubricant company posting on this, or any other forum? If so many products are better, why aren't the CEO's and technical directors here providing us with information? (rest assured, they ARE checking out the forums) They're not here because George will prove that his product is better. No one wants second best, especially when the losing product oftentimes costs more.

George doesn't have to post here to sell his product. (Heck he just ends up giving away free samples!) He chooses to be a part of the forums in order to help others, and to have a good time. That says a lot in my opinion.

Best regards,
Clay

sm
August 15, 2002, 12:29 AM
Ditto what CAH said-- to which I'll add one of the products above in my testing left a bolt action single shot a brown yucky mess, another product "burned" the plasic grips-this product is a CLP in a can, person waited till everything cleaned put grips back on, next time he cleaned-could not remove grips "burned' onto screws and frame--had to break grips off Beretta.

FWIW I have sent George some G96, remoil liquid, and Kleen bore Formula 3 for testing.

I don't have a need for these--exclusivley use FP-10 ;)

butchb243
August 22, 2002, 10:42 PM
Hey! I started this mess about 2 months ago , never thought it would last this long and stopped looking at it about 2 weeks later . Just now found it again. George thanks for the free bee I just sent my E-mail . I have a remington 1148 that I love to shoot but it has always had a problem with jaming, As the lubes that I have tried have gotten better so has the problem, your FP 10 sounds like just what I was hoping to find with this thread. Can hardly wait to try it!:D

sm
August 23, 2002, 10:38 AM
butch243,

See- good things DO come to those that wait:)

Give that 11-48 a good cleaning, and I know you'll give that chamber a going over with wisps of 0000 steel wool while your at it. Clean and lubed with FP-10 you'll be surprised....really.

Why you'll probably get a double or two on doves this season--hard to do when a gun jams...blows the excuses though when the grey missles sail on....

best.

hansolo
August 23, 2002, 08:00 PM
Thank you, George, for the sample of FP-10 cleaner/lube!

I like many aspects: 1.) There is no strong odor!..Now, I LOVE the smell of Hoppes #9, but I live in a smallish home and the old lady(I mean"wife")hates Hoppes' odor as much as I hate the smell of nailpolish remover! 2.) Nice, medium viscosity...gets in there to clean, leaves a light lubricating film.

I went to my outdoor range the day after my first use of FP-10: my CZ 75B seemed to cycle smoother -- don't know if it was my imagination, but it also seemed to eject the casings at the ideal 3-5 feet(before, they would go 6-8 feet).

FP-10 could replace several products as my only cleaner/lube. Thanks!

Steve Pirosh:)

WESHOOT2
August 24, 2002, 12:45 AM
So I e-mail this noisy horn-blower of a self-proclaimed 'Lube Specialist" and I says "Okay, send me your free sample (oh, I love free gun stuff) so it can get added to my box full of other wonder-lubes", but I keep noticing all these other posts saying nice things about horn-blower's stuff.

Soooooooo I says to myself, "Myself, maybe horn-blower blows hard so we HEAR him".

I like a guy who knows his stuff is good. I'm looking forward to testing FP-10. I'm very very satisfied with BreakFree CLP. I have an open mind (that's why I have a box of other lubes). I owe no loyalty to any specific product or service; I'm free. I have NO financial ties to ANY OTHER gun-related product or service. I offer my opinion based on my experiences.

I already like this guy............................and free samples cost big bucks.........................and you got to have complete confidence in what you're offering.........................and I got a match coming September 7th in a blowing sand pit.........................perfect test.

(I had NO idea folks used WD-40 as a gun lube; I use it for cleaning sometimes before I use Gun-Scrubber.)

Firepower
August 24, 2002, 02:17 AM
Heya Tim,

Ya knowz, I say's to meself, dis goy .....naw wait, that's your schtick!! LOL... :D

About this "horn-blower", is he any good? I like good jazz as much as the next guy! But ya know, when ya gots a small horn, ya gots to "blow harder" for doze folks to hear ya, specially if what you got, can blow dem all away, includin' da Sachmo....BF-CLP

Ya know how you can kinda sense someone's personality through the comms, be it email, the forums, or a land-line? (western union, american sign, semifore, morse code, etc.)

I could tell from our email exchange that I like this WESHOOT2 guy, too (Izzat redundant?).

As soon as I get you hooked up with that bottle of FP-10, the infolded order of all things will be unfolded before you. Take care Tim ;)
Something Wonderful Is About To Happen

Hal, open the door....Hal,.....open the door, Hal......Hal....
Best,
George

Hey Steve hansolo...you are very welcome :D

Night all ......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

sm
August 24, 2002, 02:36 AM
WESHOOT 2 ...

I tried FP-10 because I had played the "lube game", and the latest product -was ok-then changed its formula-NOT OK

So I had heard of FP-10 and did a internet search. E-mailed George, and asked "hey is FP-10 any good or just hype?"
George didn't bash anyone, didn't condemn me for having played the "lube game"-his response was " tell you what I'll send you a sample and you tell me".

Now this was a long long time ago, no free offers, nothing on the forums-He sends the sample along with tech info-which goes right over my head.

Well I tried it, and I've stayed with it since then. Use it exclusivley, the box of lubes is gone, nice to have one product for CLP

And oh yeah I "put it through the paces"--never, repeat, never has failed me.

Sand pit, don't worry about it, shoot well at the match,you'll have one less thing to worry about.

CAH
August 24, 2002, 08:15 AM
Steve's experiences above mirror mine. In 1997 I decided that I was going to find the best products for gun care. I tested dozens of products. In 2000 I joined the internet community, and discovered a company called Muscle Products Corp., the company that made Shooter's Choice FP-10. After almost two years of trials on every type of weapon I could get my hands on, numerous rust tests, and ASTM data comparisons, I came to the conclusion that FP-10 was definitely ONE of the best. It wasn't, however, the best protectant. That has now changed. I just recently started testing the new "improved" mil-spec formula. I have since discarded all my other products, as FP-10 CLP is the BEST gun care product I've ever used, period. Every aspect of FP-10 has been improved, so if you haven't tried it in a year or so, you should.

FP-10 has always been great, but now it is the BEST :) .

Clay

WESHOOT2
August 24, 2002, 10:07 AM
Thanks to all for the info, but I of course remain slightly skeptical.

I am willing to be convinced, though, as that's how I ended with BF CLP.
I normally run my guns dirty (dirtier)(unbelievably filthy) and slop on some CLP before matches.
Real cold, real hot, real sandy gritty rainy dusty real good.

Not as concerned about rust (they ALL rust).

I still use TetraSkunk for treating bores, and an occasional dab of TetraGrease for sears or slide stop pins.

So, I guess I'm saying "I'll let you know"...............

butchb243
September 1, 2002, 07:42 PM
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D :D :D :D :D
Just got in from a day of dove shooting that was fantastic, not because there were that many doves, but what happened to my gun.
I have an old Remington model 1148 in 410 that was my first shotgun ( that was a lot of years) , and I dont think it has ever gone more than 5 rounds without a jam in it's history.
It was the reason that I started this thread in the first place . I have tried other lubes of all kinds, Breakfree, Remoil, even slick 50, + many others. FP10 is the first one to ever make that gun work . Fired 47 rounds today & not one hitch of any kind!:D :cool:
I'm sold I can stop looking now,but there is one thing , COULD YOU PUT SOMETHING IN THAT COULD MAKE ME GET MORE HITS FROM A BOX OF SHELLS?:o :rolleyes: :D :D

Firepower
September 3, 2002, 01:04 AM
We are temporarily suspending our Free FP-10 offer for a short time but will repost it when it becomes available again, soon.
This offer has ended as of 3:00 PM EST, Sunday, September 1st, 2002
I have to devote the remaining time to the 3 major matches that we are sponsoring and I am shooting in the next 3 weeks.
http://www.fp10.com/sponsoredmatches.htm
Thank you all for your great participation and we'll be back to make it available again, very soon (probably at the end of this month).

Best regards,
George

sm
September 3, 2002, 09:06 AM
butchb243:

I told you so :D

What - no doubles??

Ok - you want more hits from a box of shells-right? [hey I was right about the FP-10]

You take care of the physical factors- only about 10% of the equation, which are:
gun
footwear
clothing apparel
eye and ear protection--all these must work, fit , be comfortable etc
technique [stance, gun mount...]

The other 90% is mental. Take care of al the physical so you don't clog the mental

Skeet is a good way to learn the mindset, repetition becomes habit and habit becomes faith

So when the grey missle sails by your mental computer has been trained and conditioned such that less shells for more birds.

Didn't get to go opening day this year, 2 years ago 13 shells and 15 birds though...yeah I use FP-10 and used to shoot skeet competitvley...practice practice practice.

shoot safe and have fun...and don't get too serious,it'll clog the brain too.

butchb243
September 3, 2002, 01:19 PM
If I put in lube cups , do you think this stuff will work on my atheritis?:D

Only used a few drops on the bolt rails before I went hunting the other day, but gave the gun a good cleaning when I got back , with FP10 . Cant wait to go again , now!:cool:

Firepower
September 3, 2002, 02:33 PM
If I put in lube cups , do you think this stuff will work on my atheritis? :D
Hey Butch (great post there, previous to this, too...thanks!!!)

Please use the suggested universal joint remedy...WD-40

:barf: :barf: :barf:

:D ;)
Best regards,
George

demarpaint
September 4, 2002, 05:20 AM
WD 40 can take the blueing off a gun. Blueing is a corrosion process and WD 40 removes corrosion. Kroil works for me, it cleans lubricates and protects. It's thin and gets into the pores of the metal.

Good shooting

Vin
September 8, 2002, 03:00 AM
Has anyone tried Butch's Gun Oil and have any opinions about it's lubrication qualities and protection against rust? I know Butch's Bore Shine seems to be a popular bore solvent so I was curious about the gun oil.

edwardellis
September 15, 2002, 06:41 PM
New or old pistols both corbon and stainless steel.
What I found was the best procedure I have found by far.
Field strip as usual incliding the grips.
Totally clean with a good degreaser cleaner.
Wash in strong dish water detergent.
Rinse throughly under running water.
Bake in oven for one hour at 170 deg. thats my lowest setting on my oven.
While still warm coat completely with Militec-1.
Bake again for one hour.
Remove and lay on towel to drain turning several times.
Do this for one day because it will take some time to drain well.
Put it all back together.
Dry fire it and it will seem to be like a totally different gun.
The trigger pull will feel like it has had a trigger job.
Totally amazing.
I have been shooting over 40 years and this was
the most amazing thing I have ever done.
Hand it to a friend who has shot it a lot.
The next question will be who did the trigger job.
Ed

Firepower
September 18, 2002, 03:11 AM
Mr. Ellis,

How many firearms do you think will withstand a bath in a "chlorinated alpa olefin" at 60% chlorine by weight, and then subjected to a halogenating catalytic reacting temperature (near 210 deg F) forming a highly concentrated film of ferric chloride on the entire surface area of the firearm and then....exposing it to moisture or high humidity?

Let me tell you, the results can be catastrophic.

What you are suggesting to these folks, (and you better damn well be ready to take responsibility for your actions) is risking their firearms to a severe corrosion scenario that can result in metal etching, surface fracturing, micro-pitting, and the latticular breakdown of the structure of the steels near the surface due to surface depletion after exposure to moisture and the ferric chloride is replaced by ferric oxide (rust).

I am so distraught with the mythology and disinformation perpetrated by the likes of self appointed "pundits" of lubrication and firearms maintenence such as you seem to be, while giving no thought to the consequential outcome and lon-term affects that will be suffered by others, should the choose to take your "lubri-babble" seriously.

It would not surprise me to learn that someone else from the "dark side" had put you up to this rediculously dangerous concept of boundary film formation using Militec-1 (see above chemical description) in order to sensationalize the short term effect of the automotive/metalworking additive.

Tell you what I'm going to do....just for you and the folks who are interested...
I'll take some Militec-1, coat a piece of chrome moly steel test panel, after following your scrub-a-dub directions, and bake it as you say. Then, after drying, give it the old water vapor test and see what happens. Heck, I'll even take pictures and put them on the web for everyone to see, just like I did for the "rusty plate test" with BreakFree.

Now, you just wait there, and I'll be back soon, ya'hear?

Regards,
George

edwardellis
September 18, 2002, 12:30 PM
1 Your company name raises a red flag.
2 Your product is not used by the military my research found.
3 I releaize your company is loosing a lot of sales to your competer.
4 I was not picking on your product ,just showing a much better product.
5 Militec backed backed up my post by email.
6 They are not stupid enough to back it up in writing
which would leave them open to a law suit.
7 If people do a through research on both products
You will loose more business.
8 When peoply loose their cool and get irate they loose
their ability to think clearly as you have and I suppect
you are going to have some problems with your boss.
9 Let the peoply do their own through research and make their
own decision.
10 People who loose their logical thinking quickly shoud not
be playing around with chemicals.
11 Educaion and a degree do not create an intelligence person.
12 I hope your company developes a product that ups every body else.
then I will do my research and praise it.
14 I wish you the best but feel sorry for you.
15 I am afraid I am going to see a rigged test in your reply.
16 Militec has already addressed the CLP type products.

Desert Pete
September 18, 2002, 12:32 PM
Yeah, whatever he said. Anybody knows all them there big words has to know what he's talking about.

Romulus
September 18, 2002, 12:55 PM
While George Fennell does not always measure his words - his all-too-strong reaction to Cruzer's posts come to mind, the latter was merely answering queries from me and other members - he does nevertheless present detailed technical responses. I am in no position to judge their accuracy, but nor have I any reason to suspect their inaccuracy. In fact, George has made quite a convincing case, judging by the reaction on this and other forums.

Edwardellis, would you kindly proffer some specific replies to George's critique, or will you simply resort to semi-literate ramblings?

"Your company name raises a flag" :confused: "militec" sounds really contrived to some of us civvies out there...

Celt
September 18, 2002, 01:17 PM
WD-40 is the worst thing that you can use on your firearms.
It is not a very good lubricant and if coated with the stuff and stored it will leave a laquer like film that is a PITA to remove. It can and does eventually take blueing off.

AT best WD should only be used as an emergency lube or water remover when NOTHING else is available. Good old 3in1 oil is far better than WD for firearms.
That being said I would like to address some of the other lubes mentioned in this thread.

Break free is a decent lube and works well. It started to replace LSA in the 80's for the military. It worls far better than the old LSA issued back then.

FP-10 is also a very good lube, and if I am not mistaken, being that it had metal conditioners in it and does not rely upon PTFE particles suspended in oil especially if put inside a barrel. Never use anything with PTFE (Telfon) inside a barrel.

Tetra lube is an OK lube, but it depends on PTFE particles suspended in oil. I will void any warranty I put on my custom rifles if any product with PTFE in it is used in the bore.

TW-25 is another great lube and conditioner.

I have used all of these and really they all work great, with the exception of WD. wich is once again possibly the absolute worse thing to put on a gun that is said to be a lube.

Greases;
The brownell action magic is a very good one and I still use it on certain things.
One of the best all purpouse greases I ahve ever used on a firearm is STOS. It is big with the Trap shooters for ue on the hinges or thier O/U shotguns. It is very good.

i ahve also messed with many different bore lubes, even did testing on new ones that a company was trying come up with that would increase accuracy and velocity for real.

The only thing I can say after extensive testing and rounds down range is that none really work in the bore. Some work for a little while with increased velocity, but the increase was not worth the effort. Others actaully decreased velocity. None actaully raised accuracy over a barrel of the same make and accuracy potential with no bore lube at all.
Barrel life may or may not have increased, since even a thousand rounds in a 308 will not tell you much even with a borescope.

I would like to test FP-10 against TW-25 in an extended test in a CAR-15. The test would run 1500 round each with one aplication applied per the companies guidelines before testing.
The test would be done for function, wear, and ease of cleaning after the test.

Celt

Romulus
September 18, 2002, 01:24 PM
Celt, what's STOS grease?

Celt
September 18, 2002, 01:42 PM
Here ya go.
http://www.reloaders.com/acc_lubes.html

Celt

Romulus
September 18, 2002, 01:59 PM
mucho obligado

Firepower
September 18, 2002, 07:09 PM
1 Your company name raises a red flag. Muscle Products Corporation is indicitive to our slogan "Putting the Strength In Lubrication". Our flag is not red...it is RED, WHITE, and BLUE.
2 Your product is not used by the military my research found. Your research is both inadequate and incorrect.
http://www.dscr.dla.mil/products/epa/n10.htm
http://www.fp10.com/adjutantgeneral.html
I could provide much more, but why bother...
3 I releaize your company is loosing a lot of sales to your competer. (I love this one) Quite to the contrary in all cases, but you fail to mention which competer(sic) you refer to. I'll go out on a limb here and assume you must mean Militec. Now if that is whom you mean, then here are the proper stats; in 2001 we converted 70% of the M-1 distributors to MPC Products...why?...simply because they perform better, and are a much more realistically affordable price, along with the fact that we offer over 14 different "specifically designed products" to do the jobs they do...not just a "1-product panacea" that works on everything. Sorry...no such animal.
4 I was not picking on your product ,just showing a much better product. Seems to me, I never even mentioned my product in my post...only the one "YOU" mentioned, outside of the reference to the "Rusty Nail Test"...and there I only mentioned BF.
5 Militec backed backed up my post by email. What What does that mean?...outside of the obvious fact that Brad and Allan are soliciting folks like you to come on the forums and post garbage as you did. Too bad they don't have the where-withall to come on and post themselves.
6 They are not stupid enough to back it up in writing
which would leave them open to a law suit. You are exactly right. Give written advice (as you did) that may result in a lawsuit due to liability and negligence, will get you just that....a fat lawsuit. HOWEVER, if you give sound, proven, and responsible advice, you are revered in your field, as you then demonstrate true professionalism and concern for the end user. I'll wager you even promote the "drain your oil out of your crankcase and run your car" after adding your "favorite" additive package (what was that stuff again?).
7 If people do a through research on both products
You will loose more business. Now there is a statement that just tickles me to no end. Word is, my friend, that Brad's company is on the way out and nearly broke. Unless YOU are in the industry itself, you wouldn't know this, but if you ARE (in the industry) then I believe your name is really Brad Giordanni or Alan Roth...kind of suspect it anyhow, Mr. "E".
8 When peoply loose their cool and get irate they loose
their ability to think clearly as you have and I suppect
you are going to have some problems with your boss. Now, this one is an enigma. Seems like you are loosing your cool, not me :cool: as I put forth the facts and figures. You just spout nebulous innuendoes and references without any foundation whatsoever. And if my Boss gets tight with me, well, I can always deal with me ( as one of my first requirements of me is to be professional when dealing with idiots as well as good folks, like most I've found on the forums, until now (even Tribologist and drcohen are a significant "cut" above your purely mercenary and rediculous "lubri-babble".)) Based on this statement alone, you would be a candidate for some therapy based on a "Projectionist" type behavior...but then again, I'll leave the psych to the shrinks.
9 Let the peoply do their own through research and make their own decision. Now you're talking!! That's what the FP-10 Challenge has been all about (and continues to be). I welcome the person who want's to test it against Militec-1 with GREAT enthusiasm..as I have a convert as if it were BreakFree (which is a hands down loss to FP-10).
10 People who loose their logical thinking quickly shoud not be playing around with chemicals. I agree wholeheartedly, and pray you do not.
11 Educaion and a degree do not create an intelligence person. Right again. Intelligence is inherint to humans. How we develop it is inherint to education and life's learnings, which bring us to wisdom and better living. Common sense is essential, but writing the book on halogenation techniques took a little more than just that, for me. I recommend you picking up "Martha Stewart's Book of Social Ettiquette" to start with. This may require a bit more in-depth reading that you may be accustomed to, but I'm sure you could find it on audio cassette.
12 I hope your company developes a product that ups every body else. then I will do my research and praise it. Been there, Done that ;)
14 I wish you the best but feel sorry for you. I really don't know (honestly) why?...anyone else, please feel free to comment on this one too!! Thanks, for the best though, but I already have it....it's called "Firepower FP-10 CLP".
15 I am afraid I am going to see a rigged test in your reply. No worries. My test will be repeatable by all and the results, good or bad, will be published as they occur. Don't worry "E", I won't do a "don't try this at home" test...in fact, I'll be following your instructions all the way :D
16 Militec has already addressed the CLP type products. Wrong address, if referring to "Firepower FP-10 CLP". Try 112 Fennell Drive, Butler, PA 16002 :D
BTW, there is a "goat here"...is he your's?

Rule#1: Never bring a KNIFE to a Gunfight ( and your's needs a whole lot of sharpening)
Rule#2: Always do your home-work
Rule#3: If you do, (your homework) and you're coming after me...bring a body-bag. YOU'LL need it.

Stay tuned....test is about to start!


Regards,
George

PS...Hey CELT (Dia dhuit, mo chara). Email me your address and I'll see to it that you get that FP-10 for the test you want to do (bigger bottle too).

Celt
September 18, 2002, 07:55 PM
George,
go rahb maith agat!

You have mail.

For all eyes on this thread;
The test I run will a truely non bias one.
I really want to know first hand wich of the two (TW-25 or FP-10)
I have used both and both are tops. I currently use TW-25 because a buddy gave me some and it works great.

Whatever product comes out on top in my tests will be the one I use and give small amounts to my customers with thier custom rifles I build. I will also carry and promote the one I choose.

The test will take about 3 months since ammo is not free and the sitting time without cleaning between firings will be another factor for testing.

I will post my results as soon as I finish the 1500 rounds for each product.

The same ammo will be used and only one aplication of the product will be done after thorough cleaning before the first round is fired.

Celt

Clayton Hufford
September 18, 2002, 09:01 PM
Celt, I am glad to hear that you'll be testing FP-10 CLP. I look forward to your future comments! :)

FWIW, I have tested virtually every lube and CLP-type product on the market since 1997. I compared ASTM test data and conducted my own, albeit non-scientific, corrosion, functional reliability, and wear tests. Nothing even comes close to the performance of FP-10 CLP.

I personally found TW-25B and MC2500 to be very good lubricants, but not too good at preventing corrosion, and contrary to popular belief, you still need to clean your gun. Nothing takes the place of preventative maintenance.

I found Militec-1 to be an absolutely lousy protectant, and again, you still need a cleaner. I have since discovered that Militec-1 is simply a lubricant ADDITIVE, and by itself it can actually be harmful to your weapons. The Militec-1 that you put in your engine is the same stuff that you put on your guns - that's dumb. Guns and cars are totally different in their requirements, IMHO.

FP-10 CLP is complete, so to speak, not just an additive or a "conditioner", nor is it a do-all wonder product, but a product designed FOR weapons from the start.

Just my thoughts,
Clayton

tonyz
September 19, 2002, 11:37 AM
I have used CLP as my overall Gun Lubricant for many years. Lately I also have also been using Tetra Gun Grease and Tetra Gun Lubricant. I have been totaly satisfied with all of these products.

Tony


Tetra (http://www.fulton-armory.com/TetraProducts.htm)

Celt
September 19, 2002, 11:51 AM
I fully understand that there is no substitute for cleaning and care of your gun.
I do however feel that with products as good as the ones being tested it is vital to do the extended no cleaning test, as I feel this will be the only real deciding factor. Wich one keeps working in harsh combat like conditions.
I specialize in SWS rifles and some may be used in harsh life and death situations. I want the very best.

Celt

Clayton Hufford
September 19, 2002, 06:17 PM
Celt, I agree 100%. My cleaning comment was in reference to the marketing hype by Militec and others who think that their products will actually take the place of regular cleaning. Indeed many of these products help make cleaning easier compared to average gun oil, but they don't make a gun "self cleaning", IMHO.

I prefer CLP-type products as they've always worked best for me. They save time, money, and space. Contrary to popular belief, many CLP's outperform single purpose specialty products. When Break-Free CLP first came out, it was loads better than just about every gun oil out there, as well as protectants like Sheath and cleaners like Hoppes #9. FP-10 CLP is about five times better than Break-Free CLP in terms of lubrication, per ASTM results, and is also a better cleaner and protectant now that it has been improved and meets current mil-specs. Long term wise, FP-10 is much better as it contains no solids which can harden and gum up, especially in storage conditions.

Regards,
Clay

Romulus
September 20, 2002, 02:28 AM
Clay, no offense intended...

But up until Firepower showed up, which wasn't so long ago, and unless I am mistaken, you were singing the praises of Break-Free. I would just like to know when you were won over to FP-10 and based on what empirical evidence...

No ulterior motives to my question, in fact I am still awaiting after almost two months the promised info from Mr. Yoder at Armor Holdings about BF CLP and how it stacks up to FP-10. It's just that I notice a rather sudden change of heart on your part and am wondering ...due to what revelation?

WESHOOT2
September 20, 2002, 04:27 AM
Did I miss the window?

Clayton Hufford
September 20, 2002, 06:50 AM
Romulus:

I really started seriously testing FP-10 about a year ago. I bought a large bottle from CJ Distributing. I tried FP-10 on every weapon I could get my hands on, and used it during training courses. I always knew, from reviewing the ASTM test data, that FP-10 was a better lubricant, compared to Break-Free CLP, or just about any other lube out there. However, I really "grew up" on Break-Free CLP, having used it since I was a kid, and having used it in the Army. I trusted it, even though it wasn't the best lube. It cleaned and protected better than most every product available.

Break-Free CLP changed its formula several times, and changed hands as well, going to Armor Holdings. IMHO none of this was a good thing. It took me a while to realize this.

Just recently FP-10 CLP was improved greatly in order to meet new mil-specifications. The new formula puts it well above any product I have ever used. FP-10 CLP was actually designed from the get-go to be used on firearms, and was improved to be the best.

I have spoken with George at MPC several times in the last few months, and learned ALOT about FP-10 and the lube industry in general. The level of customer service and support at MPC is far above anything I've ever experienced. When I call MPC, I get to speak with the guy that develops the stuff. To me, this means alot. I prefer to support companies that aren't afraid to tell me about their product, and to tell the truth.

In short, Break-Free CLP is good, compared to products like Rem-Oil, WD-40, etc. but it cannot compare to the new FP-10 CLP. As you've discovered, the customer service at BF has went downhill since Dwight Woodruff was replaced. I still have a ton of tech info that Dwight sent me a few years ago. Great guy.

FWIW, I am not employed by or related to anyone at MPC. I support MPC because they make the best gun (and auto) care products on the market, IMHO. :)

www.fp10.com

www.mpc-home.com

Hope this helps,
Clay

Romulus
September 20, 2002, 12:37 PM
Thanks, Clay.

I sent an e-mail to BF and got an answer from Don Yoder. It was actually nice to hear from the top man himself (I understand he is the original formulator of BF, including it's latest improved version.) He told me that he knew nothing about FP-10, but if FP-10 obtained its mil-spec classification it would deserve it, as many have gone for it but never received it. He also added that the BF marketing dept. based in Florida would contact me and give me more info on BF and how it might stack against FP-10.

To date, not a peep from the Florida folks, It's been at least two months...

S.F.S
September 20, 2002, 01:34 PM
According to George the only difference between the new Mil-spec formula and the old stuff is the droppng point, the old stuff was -54 F and the new stuff is -65 F. eveything else is the same.

So basically I would never be able to tell the difference in the 2 cause I wont be shooting when its that damn cold :eek:

I also see that Shooters Choice has the new Mil-Spec formula on the shelfs in a gun shop near me.

Scott

JohnKirk
September 20, 2002, 03:59 PM
I'll agree with George on the WD-40. I have had a Model 69A Win. since before, well, a long durn time. Back in the good old days, I would slather it with 3-in-one oil. Years later, I wondered why the firing pin dropping took about two seconds. I used WD-40 on the gun, and thought the WD was gumming up all over that rifle. It turns out WD was only DISSOLVING all my mistakes at lubing. After further use, I decided it was good for displacing H20, and great at getting tar off my Grand Cherokee.

My 69A has since been properly cleaned and lubed with CLP. The firing pin drops in a mili-second. I am looking forward to receiving George's sample to try also. Heard good things about it. Will try it on my many Glocks few lube points.

By the way, CLP does NOT gum up. Period.

Clayton Hufford
September 20, 2002, 05:37 PM
Scott, actually what happened was George changed FP-10 in order to lower the temp range to meet mil-specs, but the change influenced the entire range of characteristics in a positive way. I personally can tell a huge difference in the cleaning ability, and in the ease of application - it seems to coat surfaces better and its flow characteristics are much improved as well.

When comparing the old formula and the new side by side, you can REALLY tell the difference :) .

Best regards,
Clay

S.F.S
September 20, 2002, 06:45 PM
Clay,
That is what he said over on the 1911 Forum when I asked him about it.
On the other hand I have never compared the two formulas side by side so I am unable to comment on it myself, so I will take your word for it.

When cleaning the barrel and cylinders on a revolver I still use either Hoppe's or Shooters Choice then lubricate and wipe everything down afterwards.

Like I said on another post I have used it and was pleased with it but still seem to use G96 the most over all the other lubes I have.
I know its not the best but Im happy with it. And most of all its used regularly... I always clean my guns after each range trip. It works just about as good as B.F. CLP for light cleaning, I have not tried FP-10 for cleaning yet.
I did run some through the barrel of my .357 after cleaning with Hoppe's and let it sit for about an hour and the patch did not come out dirty.

P.S. I definatly favor G96 over B.F. CLP for trigger assemblies.
B.F. on the other hand is probably a better lubricant though.
If you wouldn't mind post the test results that you did one other time with how different lubes performed in it.
Scott

Clayton Hufford
September 20, 2002, 10:46 PM
No problem, Scott.

I only have two tests in which G-96 was mentioned. One is the RCMP trials done several years ago, in which FP-10, G-96, and TW-25B were the winners. The other is a friction wear and abrasion test performed on a F-1599-1A lubricity tester by the Falex Corp.

33 products were tested altogether, with G-96 coming in at #24, Break-Free CLP at #11, and FP-10 at #1. Obviously this is just one test, so don't take the results too seriously. I prefer to have the results from at least three different ASTM tests with which to do comparisons, but this is very difficult with products like G-96 as they refuse to provide any test data. I'm just not willing to lay down my cash to do anymore tests, as I think I have found the best available. Testing lubes is very, very expensive.

In every test that FP-10 is a part of, you can bet that it will come out on top, at least in every one that I've seen it has.

I think Southwest Research did some tests for George, the results of which are on his website.

www.fp10.com

http://www.swri.org/

Regards,
Clay

Firepower
September 23, 2002, 01:30 PM
Sorry for the delay, but we were heavily involved in the Area 8 USPSA Tri-State Championships this weekend, and have been burning (and shooting) the candle at ALL ends :)

I have finished, compiled, documented, and posted the experiment I stated I would do in my previous post:
I'll take some Militec-1, coat a piece of chrome moly steel test panel, after following your scrub-a-dub directions, and bake it as you say. Then, after drying, give it the old water vapor test and see what happens. Heck, I'll even take pictures and put them on the web for everyone to see, just like I did for the "rusty plate test" with BreakFree.

Here it is:

http://www.fp10.com/miltestprotect.htm

This was done to in the interest of YOU, the SHOOTERS, to PROVE that what I said about chlorinated hydrocarbons without proper inhibiting techniqes, can and will produce corrosion under the conditions of moisture and humidity.

Try it yourself...the truth is in the "doing" and "seeing". All the BS and marketing hype can't cover it up when the folks are willing to put it to the test.

Remeber the Rusty nail test with Breakfree and FP-10?
It was even MORE rigorous than this, as we used a 20% salt-water solution on the plates in that one. This one, was just Tap Water.
The link to the BF/FP-10 test:

http://www.fp10.com/FP-10testing/

Best regards,
George

PKAY
September 23, 2002, 03:04 PM
OK, George! I give, I give, I give! I just ordered a 16 oz. bottle of your product and am looking forward to joining Ted Nugent in slathering up my guns with it. Will let you know how it compares to my silly home brew of MMO and generic STP. Best to you, and here's to the continued success of your company.

Nannuk
September 23, 2002, 11:52 PM
Am I the only one that uses graphite in place of grease? I never saw it mentioned here. Am I wrong to use powdered graphite? I use it for all of the trigger/sear/saftey applications as well as on my scope screws/stock screws.

Firepower
September 24, 2002, 02:27 AM
Nannuk,

Graphite is a fairly good dry lubricant (only if you are using it dry) but it has very little extreme pressure characteristics and a low load carrying capacity to fight wear under more severe conditions of shocking and properties of ignition.

My biggest question is, what are you using to protect those parts and slide/frame from corrosion? Graphite certainly will not do it, and if you mix graphite with oil, you can end up actually inducing wear into your firearm's moving parts. Graphite can also affect the oxidation rate of oils and greases when mixed with them.

From NASA Technical Memorandum 104525, Tribology Needs For Future Space and Aeronautical Systems, Robt. L. Fusaro, Lewis Research Center, Cleveland OH, Dec. 1991 - Page 9, Solid Lubricant Factors.

“Most solid lubricant films do not function well in a liquid environment, whether it be water or oil. Even the miniscule amount of oil deposited by an inquiring finger can drastically affect tribological properties and reduce endurance life. A small hard particle can imbed itself in a film and severely abrade the counter-face.”

Food for thought.

Next question...are you alone in the Universe?
(maybe :eek: ) {just kidding ;) }

Best regards,
George

Clayton Hufford
September 25, 2002, 08:16 PM
I experienced excessive wear when testing the various dry lubes on the market. They're better than nothing, but just barely, IMHO.

Personally I think I'd rather clean and lube my gun more frequently with FP-10 CLP than use a dry lube, when in a desert environment.

As George mentioned, protection is a big issue. In my book it is number two on the gun care list, right below gun safety. I think that corrosion is far more of a concern than wear, at least under most conditions. You'll face rust, but you probably won't wear out a gun from actual use.

Just my thoughts,
Clay

Nannuk
September 25, 2002, 10:30 PM
I dunno, I was ALWAYS told to not use lube/oil on the trigger mechanism. I keep the outside of my barrel oiled with 3-in-1. Maybe it is jst my randfathers advise that is wrong, however I just inherited a 100+yr old .410. Seems like if it has worked for 100 years it can't be that wrong.

Firepower
September 26, 2002, 10:29 AM
Well, Nannuck,

We've provided the info, so what can I say.

My advice ... "Watch out where the Huskies go, and don't you eat that yellow snow..." :D

Just joking, of course...but that .410 probably doesn't get shot that much or spend any time in the weather, whereas you can get by with almost anything. However, if you shoot on a regular or competative basis or hunt frequently in alot of varying weather, that graphite and 3-in-1 will be hard-pressed to "cut it", without encountering the "nasties" of corrosion and wear. ( Of course, cleaning is another issue).

But as always, the choice is yours.

Best regards,
George

Celt
September 26, 2002, 11:21 AM
I just recieved a generous sample of FP-10 today for my testing.
Testing will begin in a few days with the thorough cleaning of the CAR, then 150 rounds fired and off to a "camping" trip" for the weekend to use it in the weather and such with out cleaning.

There was a nice surprize of another gun related product in the package. I was not aware that they made that. I may or may not get to fully test this, so I will keep it under my hat for now, but you class 3 owners out there may be very interested in it. You police CQCB operators may be as well. Looks good so far.

Go rahb maith agat Seoirse.

Celt

Ben Swenson
September 27, 2002, 02:34 PM
I continue to be further impressed with both the FP-10 product and the willingness of its sales force to address customer (and even non-customer) concerns ... even to the point of carrying out testing at their own expense to demonstrate capabilities.

Congrats Firepower. And good product.

By the by, I've determined that the problem I was having with my .45 was due to a worn recoil spring and had absolutely nothing to do with any lubricant or cleaning process used. Cheers.

Nannuk
September 27, 2002, 02:56 PM
Well, I fired off e-mails to both you and to Mil-tec about a week ago (IIRC). Have recieved a confirmation e-mail from mil-tec and a follow-up saying my sample had been sent, but no such from you. Not complaining, just wondering if I need to send you my info again. Thanks for the imput and am looking forward to broadening my horizon's. Lemme know if I need to supply info again.

Nannuk (Ben)

Sic Semper Tyrannis

Firepower
September 27, 2002, 03:17 PM
Thanks Cordex...Much appreciated.

And Nannuk...are you "Ben" in Dallas (withouit giving out private info)?
If so, it went out yesterday.
Let me know...
Best regards,
George

Firepower
September 27, 2002, 03:26 PM
Dia dhuit mo chara !

Ta Faílte rut.

Tá an lá go maith...Nil, tá sé go hálainn anois.

Is maith sin, buíochas le Dia.

Slán go foíll

Seoirse

PKAY
September 27, 2002, 04:24 PM
Hey Firepower, check your keyboard. I think sompm happened to it! FP-10 is not good for typing fingers! It causes slurring of words and may get you a "TUI."

Firepower
September 27, 2002, 06:54 PM
:eek: A TUI !!! OMG....ROFLMAO..... PKAY :D

Translation from Gaeilge:

"God to you, my friend.
You are welcome.
It's a good day,...No, It's beautiful.
That's good, thank God.
Bye for now,
George"

Just a wee bit of "Irish blarney" between the Celt and meself.
One more Guinness and a Tullamore Dew will surely get me that TUI!

Sláinte! (Cheers)
George

Firepower
September 27, 2002, 07:04 PM
BTW, things got pretty ugly today at the Sig Forum as Bradley Giordanni of Militec finally chimed in and attempted to humiliate me by name calling (literally) due to the fact that one of the fellows misunderstood my post and thought I was "Bashing" at first. He emailed Brad and told him that this was the case, and he came in (via a third party) with "gunz-a-blazin". Aw, heck...if you're interested, check it out right 'chere:
http://sigforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=9944026391&f=6084073691&m=7974021202&r=6614083342#6614083342

Later...I think I'm going to get some sleep, finally.
Best,
George

Celt
September 27, 2002, 08:01 PM
Seoirse,
Ta se fala dha faisneis Gaeilge anseo.
Did I say that right?
I am just learning Gaelige still, so I will not be able to keep up LOL.

Ta tart orm, now that you talked about drinking some uisce beatha. I like The Tullamore dew. I also like Jamison's real well.

Celt

tonyz
September 30, 2002, 11:04 AM
I also sent off e-mails to both you and to Mil-tec, about 1 1/2 weeks ago to Mil-Tec, and last week to you. Have not recieved a confirmation e-mail from mil-tec or you. Also have not recieved any sampes.

I would Like to try FP-10


Tony Z

Firepower
September 30, 2002, 03:33 PM
Hey Tony

I posted this about 3-4 weeks ago:wait till the championship matches are over...
We are temporarily suspending our Free FP-10 offer for a short time but will repost it when it becomes available again, soon.
This offer has ended as of 3:00 PM EST, Sunday, September 1st, 20029
I have to devote the remaining time to the 3 major matches that we are sponsoring and I am shooting in the next 3 weeks.
http://www.fp10.com/sponsoredmatches.htm
Thank you all for your great participation and we'll be back to make it available again, very soon (probably at the end of this month).

Best regards,
Georgehttp://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118369&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

You may have sent it when the emails were being cached until then.

We're getting to them now. ( I found yours and it'll go out in a day or 2)

Thanks...Best,
George

4 Eyed Six Shooter
September 30, 2002, 11:39 PM
I talking with a Glock tech the other day about the best lube to use on the Sheriffs Glocks that I was servicing. He said they are using a 50/50 mixture of Breakfree and Militec-1. He said it works better than anything else they have tried.
I explained to him that the area that I live in can go from 95 degrees to -50 degrees depending on the time of the year. I was looking for a lube that would not jam up a firearm in the cold weather and would still stay on the rails when it was hot. He said this was it. :D

Firepower
October 1, 2002, 01:04 AM
Well, that tells me he hasn't tried FP-10.

Everybody thinks they're a lube expert.

I think by the time I've dismantled and reassembled my Glock 22, 250 times (pick a number, any number), I'll just call myself a "Glock Technician", sit on the right hand of "Glock, the Father", and pontificate all day long on my infinite extrapolations of "Glock-Talk".

Sheesh, someone make the coffee....

Romulus
October 1, 2002, 02:57 AM
George, if I could digress from the "product" subject and ask a theoretical question...meaning this is not specifically about FP-10.

I've been trying to picture firearms operation and lubrication regimes. Forgive by the way in advance my poor articulation of the subject if it isn't clear...

When you fire your first shot in a 1911, assuming it's been properly lubed prior to the shooting session, it seems to me (a fruit of my mental picture) that at least initially the slide moving down the frame ways would somehow induce something like the famous "hydrodynamic wedge", like a squeegee on a window cleaning job. It follows then that the lubricating regime is a hydrodynamic regime, which at some point ceases, due to lubricant being "squeezed" away, and gives way to a boundary regime.

Is it then incumbent upon the shooter to replenish the lubricant mid-session to keep the hydrodynamic regime going - based on the assumption that HD is preferable to boundary as the metal surfaces are kept from actual contact - and if yes, what would the interval be between firings before you encounter pure boundary conditions (in a 1911, that is...)

Please note that I remember your admonishment to me that my 1911 will always operate under boundary conditions - I believe that is true insofar as the HD regime may be displaced after the first few shots, which would make it statistically insignificant in the context of an afternoon shooting session. Does it pay to try and maintain HD conditions if these actually occur (not just a fruit of overactive imagination?)

PS: not just lube experts, here in Wis everybody's an architect...

Romulus
October 1, 2002, 03:01 AM
PPS:

If I'm not full of water, does my previous post speak to the advantages of a looser frame/slide fit (more room for pooled lubricant and thus HD regimes) than a tight fit (Lubricant squeezed out right away and thus virtually immediate boundary regimes)?

BTW I'm not a professional PITA, just a curious guy about lubes...it started about twelve years ago with my Fiat Spyder and the absolute necessity to find a lubricant that would keep the little hummer going...

sm
October 1, 2002, 08:57 PM
I spoke with George just a bit ago. He asked me to relay this message:

"Advise Romulus that due to my inner ear problem today as evidenced by all its nasty symptoms, I will not be posting this evening. I am however looking forward to meeting him (and others ) in Knob Creek, and will be more than happy to discuss tribiology and lubrication -- between shooting of course ;) "

Romulus , He is really looking forward to meeting people at the shoot...and shooting....

Hint: want to gain points? Diet Mountain Dew...shush...don't tell him I let his secret out.

re1973

Romulus
October 1, 2002, 10:43 PM
Sorry about his ear problem and associated pain...likewise looking forward to meeting him at the shoot...

Firepower
October 15, 2002, 01:47 PM
Hey Patrick!
I was really looking forward to seeing you at the KCR MGS. Did I miss you or did something come up? I was a GREAT show and shoot. Met Garry Castle and others from the forums. Great Time.
Best regards,
George

Romulus
October 15, 2002, 03:02 PM
I'm sorry to have missed you too. Something did come up...Since being "made redundant" in February I've been essentially self-employed. I had far less introit than expected last month, and after talking with my wife we decided to delay our trip to New Jersey till more money is in the fambly treasury. 'Tis the economy.

There will be other opportunities. I'm glad the shoot was a blast. It's good to have you back on the forum.

Best as always,

Pat

SquirrelNuts
October 17, 2002, 03:34 PM
I just sent George an e-mail for a sample. I currently use TW-25B, which works the best for me, but seems a little thin in that it will spread easily and ends up on my magazines. Not a huge problem, but it leaves a little to be desired. I would like to point out a few observations. These are just simple observations, nothing more, nothing less. I am rather impressed by the fact that FP-10 puslished test results on the website, they have 2nd amendment information on the website, and George visits the forums. This is something I do not see many product manufacturers do. I have read posts from Gale McMillan and WESHOOT2-all very good information from "manufacturers" in a sense. I would like to see this from other manufacturers. Just an observation...

I am also going to try Miltec-1, but I am not as impressed right off the bat with them.

-SquirrelNuts

Clayton Hufford
October 17, 2002, 08:58 PM
Great post SN!

Quality service, and upfront honesty by showing proof goes a long way with me, too. Getting to actually speak with the guy that invented the product makes a big difference as well :D .

Militec-1 is a great lubricant ADDITIVE. It should never be used as a stand alone lube on a firearm, or anything else for that matter. Militec-1 will not prevent corrosion, and under certain conditions it will actually cause corrosion, as it is a halogen based product.

MPC uses the same outstanding halogen lubrication technology, but doesn't stop there. They "completed" FP-10 CLP by using other additives to improve the product and allow it to be used not only as a stand alone lubricant, but a complete gun care product - it cleans, lubes, and protects better than anything I've seen.

Regards,
Clay

featherman
October 20, 2002, 07:56 PM
There are many fine lubricants out there. Having been a mechanic all my life and have had to break many a rusted bolts loose and lube squeeks in many tight places I have found that the best penetrant out there is thru GM or Chrysler it is called Heat control valve lubricant and is a foam that has Colodial Graphite in it and because it is a foam it has some staying power on the rusted area before it runs off, try a spray can and you will use nothing else to get into tight places quickly to free up many a rusted areas....

Firepower
October 21, 2002, 01:21 AM
Featherman,
With all due respect, yes there are, but some are MUCH better than others. The product and technology (graphite) that you speak of is quite archaic and have been replaced by others that are far superior in performance and priced modestly, as well.
It is well known by professionals in the field, that colloids (solids) in oils do not perform well due to rheological factors and actually cause more problems than not, as most of them (including graphite and molybdenum) can and usually do, induce abrasive wear. From NASA Technical Memorandum 104525, Tribology Needs For Future Space and Aeronautical Systems, Robt. L. Fusaro, Lewis Research Center, Cleveland OH, Dec. 1991 - Page 9, Solid Lubricant Factors.

“Most solid lubricant films do not function well in a liquid environment, whether it be water or oil. Even the miniscule amount of oil deposited by an inquiring finger can drastically affect tribological properties and reduce endurance life. A small hard particle can imbed itself in a film and severely abrade the counter-face.”

The greatest problems associated with oil dispersions is the alteration of viscosity by the addition of solids which causes a shearing of the fluid film and an increase in traction under Hydrodynamic and Elastohydrodynamic regimes. This can and often does produce a consumption of more energy in the system and works in opposition to energy efficient systems. Best,
George

RickRos
October 21, 2002, 07:23 PM
Hello,
I was impressed by all the tests on the FP10 website, and all the good information here on this thread, so I decided to skip the free sample and go straight for a purchase!

Then I saw the $5 shipping and handling charge. I guess I am cheap, but $5 on a $5 purchase bugs me. Instead of a free sample and free shipping for TFL folks, how about free shipping on a purchase?

Regards,
Rick

P.S. Anybody remember the old Xerox commercial, with the crusty old Maine fellow saying, "Is that cheap or is that thriiiifty?" Probably just me.

Firepower
October 21, 2002, 09:11 PM
Heya RickRos,

Believe me, I can understand your sense of "thrift" as it is one of those bug-a-boos that is unavoidable. Here's why...

Anything you ship via ups, is shipped by weight and the "lightest" amount you can be charged for is 1 pound or 16 ounces. Doesn't matter if you order 1 ounce..you still get hit by the "Brown Truck Gangsters" for 1 pound. So why not ship via US Mail? Granted, it's cheaper, but there is no way to track your order if it doesn't show up. Eating the cost of a 1 or 4 ouncer occasionally is no biggie (seeing that I gave away over 4,000 + shipping & handling since June) but I have to make a profit at some point or I'll be selling obsolete MPC Pens on the corner. If your "2-4 ouncers" or "16/4/Precision Lube Kit Combo" gets lost in the mail, then there's no way to know if it's lost or still in transit. With the UPS boys, I've been able to track many orders, and let folks know where it is and when to expect it.

The way paypal works, is that you have to try to transpose "weights" into a cumulative dollar value, which is kind of screwy, but comes close, and then paypal debits me for each sale in accordance with the amount ( roughly 5% per transaction).

There's also that "handling" (that is not even charged for since the UPS Gang bills us for the $6) involving every order usually by me, Val, or Digger. (That 5 dollars shipping charge you pay, costs me $6. I eat one for you :D ). That involves hand packaging in leak-proof plastic, flyer, copy of invoice, packaged in tube or box, UPS logging and posting, and labeling. All takes time and time is money, as I have to pay my employees too.

Then there's the ones that UPS loses (they're good at that in some parts of the country) sometimes "TWICE". Of course, I re-ship at no cost, pay the freight again and am now in the hole well over 200%. Will UPS reimburse me for the losses? Sure...but unless the loss is over $20, it hardly pays me to do the paperwork and go through the process, which is more costly than the loss of a small order when all is said and done.

This is why I resorted to sending out all of the free samples via US MAIL, as the loss of a few 1 ouncers is cheaper, and they actually seem to lose much less. But if I sent it all out via US MAIL and they lost your 3-16 ounce bottle order, we'd both be ******. :mad: Also, there is no record of delivery for the US MAIL (1st class postage) and there would likely be a few folks that would be lubing and cleaning their guns with the FP-10 they received while they were calling me to say that it never arrived, and good ol' me would be sending them out another order, "free" which is the long road to going out of business in short.
Starting to get the picture?

I know, it sux, and I don't likle it either because I sell FP-10, not freight charges. If I could get it to you without either of us taking a financial dump, I certainly would. Here's the real kicker...
Let's say you order a 4 ounce FP-10 for $5.37. Add the shipping cost of $5. That's $10.37 you spend total (yep...and 5 of it just to get it there).
Now, paypal clips me on the "gross" (that means "including freight charges") at 5% ($.52) leaving me $9.85. Then the UPS Gang bills me for $6, leaving me $3.85. HOLY CRAP...would you look at this mess !!! I sold a bottle for $5.37...I end up with $3.85 and my expenses are still not cut out. What profit is there here? OOPS...almost forgot...I get back $5 from you to go against the $6 they charged me, now giving me $8.85 gross profit. Sure, my manufacturing costs are lower but if I can't profit to pay my expenses like raw materials, boxes, bottles, caps, labels, employees, utilities, etc., what's the point?

The reality is, that I lose money too on small orders, but make it up on larger orders. The larger orders afford me a larger profit margin by offsetting the cost of materials, whereas before, I had more money in packaging and shipping than I actually did in product, itself.

Well, were learning something in "Business Pitfalls 101":
1.) shipping via UPS sux, but unfortunately, they have a captive marketplace.
2). We both lose when you order small bottles and the like. (of course, 16 ounce and up is much more value for the money (hint)) :D

Well, I know I've thoroughly depressed myself, but I hope I've helped ease the pain and provide a better understanding for you. (where is my Ibuprophen...ugh) :confused:
Go for the 16 ouncer...you'll be glad you did, in more ways that one (and I will too ;) )

Best regards,
George