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Bottom Gun
October 16, 1998, 05:48 PM
Who makes the most accurate production hunting rifle?
My buddy says Weatherby, I say it's Sako.
Opinions?

.
October 16, 1998, 08:39 PM
How many qualify as production, and what characteristics imbue the title of hunting rifle? My vote goes to the Steyr SSG Marksman w. DST, in .243Win.

[This message has been edited by Mykl (edited 10-17-98).]

Gordon
October 17, 1998, 07:02 PM
I recently purchased a Remington Model 700 Light tactical Rifle in .308 caliber to go hunting with. It weighs 7 3/4 lbs without scope and can shoot sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards all day long. I shot two ten shot groups last weekend at 500 meters and both were less than 6". The rifle cost me $609 plus tax and I feel that it could well be the most accurate hunting rifle in production. It is positively the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. I have owned several Weatherby rifles in .300 WM and several Remington Rifles, as well as one Ruger rifle, but none approach the accuracy of this rifle.

4V50
October 20, 1998, 01:30 AM
Remington is pretty hard to beat for the value. My 700 in 30-06 gets nickel size groups at 100 (provided I let the barrel cool down between shots). My newer Rem. Varminter in .223 shot a 1/2" center to center group at 100 using PMC non-match ammo. My brother's Varminter gets 1/4" center to center at 100. These are all factory barrels gentlemen and no modification save for mounting a decent scope.

[This message has been edited by 4V50 (edited 10-29-98).]

Kodiac
October 20, 1998, 11:33 AM
US ARMY snipers use Remington rifles all the time. They usually use .308 or better. I can't say much about it - my weapons usually fired from a linked belt (M249 SAW). But I was there when some amazing shots were taken at ranges you wouldn't believe. Should I ever spend my money on a bolt action - it would be a Remington 700.

My Remington 514 (.22 LR) is older than I am - and it STILL shoots just a hair better than MOA if I keep the bore VERY clean, and swear just right. Remington must have done something right. The Bolt cycles smoothly, reciever has a need of some rebluing... but it is still the rifle I will teach my sons how to shoot with (as all us boys in my family have)and when he gets old enough, it will go to him. That is the one rifle that has been passed father to son... It is not that special of a gun - but it has earned its place in the family rack. Its a family LAW that that gun will never be sold outside the family. If we have it and are strapped for cash - to goes to a brother or back to father. One of my brothers has offered 500 bucks for it, but I still retain it for my sons- have 3 and one on the way.
Hey, I digressed... Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited 10-20-98).]

Mute
October 23, 1998, 11:31 AM
My personal experience has been that Remingtons 700 action gives the best cold shot.

Rob Pincus
October 27, 1998, 04:14 PM
Kodiac is right, the military uses Remingtons, but you can't buy those barrels anywhere, except for the Remington Custom Shop in Ilion New york. They will make these barrels for civilians. They use a different number of lands & grooves and a slightly diffferent rate of twist in .308. I have been to the custom shop, it is as clean as operating room, but it is all hardwoods and leatehr couches. It is an amzing place. you can visit it as apart of the free tour at the factory, if you are ever up there.

gdeal
November 18, 2005, 01:41 AM
Remington

270Win
November 18, 2005, 03:35 AM
I've been shooting rifles a long time, and never come across one more accurate than the Remington 700.

One of my high school friends ended up an Army sniper in Kosovo, and he worshipped the 700... just sang its praises all day long.

Needless to say, my first bolt-action was also a 700, in .270 (hence the name). Same as everyone else says... sub MOA at 100 yards, outstanding accuracy everywhere.

Not so say Savage, Weatherby, Steyr, Winchester, Browning, etc. aren't great, even fantastically accurate guns. But none, in my experience, are as consistantly accurate as the 700.

cansniper
November 18, 2005, 05:39 AM
Sako, beats remington every time.....

Foxman
November 18, 2005, 07:12 AM
+1 on the Sako.
I have 3 Remingtons and 6 Sako rifles the Remmys are very good but the sakos have all been even better ,"out of the box" no tuning, no trigger jobs and superb even with factory ammo. The rems have all needed trigger jobs, barrel channel relieving (except the 22-250 VSSF) and are quite specific which reload works best. Latest 17 rem shot 2"+ groups at 100 yds with rem factory ammo but reloads have got that down to less than .5"
I still like Rems though and I'm not sure where Sako are going now the Berreta clowns have taken over. How much accuracy do you want? for hunting purposes on deer and above size game any of the remington rifles or Sako will give you all you want, so will Savage and Ruger. If you like it try it, and if its good for you, be happy :)

Antikristuseke
November 18, 2005, 07:21 AM
In my opinion the most accurate rifle in the world would be the CheyTac Intervention M200, but im not exactly sure who makes it and cant be bothered to check right now because i have a spliting hangover.

Servo77
November 18, 2005, 08:22 AM
I am surprised that no one has said savage yet. I have never heard a report of a savage shooting more than 1 moa out of the box. THey are not pretty, but they work. The local "hunting" store's owner, who has been all around the world hunting, always recommends savage for out of the box accuracy and dependability. After my friend bought a .243 in savage and it shot .5" groups right out of the box...I bought one. Haven't got to put it on paper yet though :(

Olaf
November 18, 2005, 08:39 AM
Everyone has their opinion on this...and most will express it, based on their particular favored brand. The truthful answer is - there is NO such thing. By that, I mean that NO one manufacturer can be identified as consistently producing rifles with accuracy greater than all others. It is simply bunkum to suggest otherwise. None of us have owned, or will own, a large enough sampling of each manufacturer's models, in order to formulate a statistically valid opinion on this. As for my own experience, I will NOT try to specify a particular brand - as I have owned several...and my experience with accuracy does not follow conventional wisdom. Many like to say that Brownings are more accurate than Remingtons, for instance. In my experience, with the particular ones I have had, this is nonsense. In fact, the Remingtons I have owned have been more accurate that the Brownings I have owned, in all but one case. One of the most accurate rifles I have ever owned is an old Yugoslav milsurp Mauser. This thing is all mis-matched....a total "mutt". It has a military-type, stepped profile barrel, hardly an expensive custom one (and not even the original barrel, at that). Yet, with the right loads, it will shoot into an inch @ 100 yards. More accurate than most other rifles ? No. But ridiculously accurate, when compared to $1000 new "commercial" rifles.

The point is, the original question has NO valid answer. No one, who is being honest, can give a pat answer on this subject. There are simply too many variables....and as I said, none of us will ever have the breadth of experience to be able to formulate a statistically valid response to this question. Sakos, Brownings, Remingtons, Tikkas, Savages, Rugers, Kimbers, Winchesters (and many others).....are all usually pretty accurate. This varies widely with any particular rifle..and chambering. Each rifle is an individual.

So, my final answer is : I can't say - and no one else can, either.

Art Eatman
November 18, 2005, 11:14 AM
A generality: The barrels on Wbs are thinner than for the Sako. If you limit yourself to three-shot groups, they're probably equal. (Obviously, there will always be a little variance with any one particular rifle of either brand.)

I have a medium-weight Wby in .30-'06. After 35 years and some 4,000 rounds through it, mas o menos, it still shoots inside one MOA at 100 and out at 500. But that's just one rifle out of thousands, so I surely can't say that all Weatherbys are neater than sliced bread.

Conversely, I've had two Sakos in .22-250. Neither gave me the groups I expected. Still, I won't bumrap Sako, because my Sako forester .243 shoots 1/2 MOA for three shots; 3/4 MOA for five.

It's hard to find a rifle in today's world that won't shoot tight groups, or that can't be made to do so with a bit of tweaking.

Art

LHB1
November 18, 2005, 12:29 PM
Wow, resurrecting a 7 year old thread (10-27-1998). Is this a new record?

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

Mobeasto
December 3, 2005, 10:04 PM
I'Ve got a tikka t3 laminated stainless 30-06 this summer and out of the box...at 100 yards I never had had group higher than 0.5 inch... and at 300 yard is still under an inch...so I think this is a bit respectable...I was very impressed..

Dave Haven
December 3, 2005, 10:33 PM
It depends. Some shoot good, some don't. I bought a SAKO AV .338 Win Mag in '92. Couldn't get better than 2 MOA with various handloads.
I re-barreled it with a Krieger barrel.... :D Now, I can't shoot OVER 1 MOA.:D

Pointer
December 3, 2005, 11:29 PM
Sako without question :)

A true minute of angle is to "cover" the 100 yard, 3 to 5 shot group with a 1" disc... a quarter will do it.

The Weatherby GUARANTEES a "false group" of 1-1/2 inches...
Which means the bullet only has to touch the outside edge of the circle/disc.
That translates to; The group can actually be covered by a 2 inch disc. :mad:

Sako will smack a dime with every shot!
AND...

It comes with integral sight bases... oooooooooooooh! :D

"We report... you decide!" ;)

Cmu_Sniper
December 4, 2005, 01:45 AM
Sako rifles are trash compared to the accuracy of the Remington 700, they shouldnt even be mentioned in the same category. Remington is best any day of the week!!!!

Foxman
December 4, 2005, 05:07 AM
Cmu Sniper on what do you base such a sweeping statement?

cansniper
December 4, 2005, 08:58 AM
CMU sniper, you are a very funny man......:D

Picher
December 4, 2005, 09:02 AM
The Remington has a round-bottomed receiver, a generous recoil plate, an excellent striker mechanism, and a great trigger. Savage copied some of those features in their rifles and they shoot pretty good, but rarely as good as the Remingtons I've owned over the years.

The rounded receiver self-centers as the stock bolts are fastened. Flat-bottomed actions can move around more in the stock, and wooden stocks shrink over time.

Try this trick: With unloaded and factory-bedded rifles, loosen action screws on a Remington about one turn from tight. With your hand on the muzzle, try moving the barrelled action in the stock. Okay, now try it with a flat-bottomed rifle like a Mauser, Winchester, Ruger, or Sako. Which ones seem to move less? Okay, which ones do you think will tend to move off target the most under recoil, especially when wood shrinks to loosen screws a bit?

Picher

BoneDigger
December 4, 2005, 10:13 AM
I've got to be contrary here I guess...

NEF HandiRifle, mine is a 7mm-08. Very accurate gun. Out of the box, it is a very good, cheap gun.

Todd

essexcounty
December 4, 2005, 11:17 AM
There is no answer to this question. The varibles are too great. I do prefer my SAKOs to my Remingtons. I've found Big Green's quality is not what it once was.......Essex

Varmint Eviscerator
December 4, 2005, 01:33 PM
anybody own a Wtherby? comment on its accuracy?
I am think about for a first centerfire rifle,-06' possibly
Chase

Cmu_Sniper
December 4, 2005, 03:43 PM
Well CanSniper, I have both rifles and could never match the accuracy of the Sako to my remington. Actually I have alot of rifles and none match what the remington puts out. It should be common sense, the military uses the remington as well as over whelming number of police agencies for the purpose of sniping. Its not for its good looks that they use it, its for its proven accuracy in its greatest need. If the sako was consistent on it accuracy, it would be used wide spread throughout the military world and police. However it is not. The proof is there.

CTC01
December 4, 2005, 04:10 PM
Rem 700 PSS in .308, its alittle heavy but I have got a .76" 5 shot group at 100yd with the bipod and I'm not that good of a shot.

Foxman
December 4, 2005, 05:03 PM
Sako TRGS in 270 win .5" out of the box 8yrs on just the same I have both remingtons and sakos and good as the Rems are they are not better than the Sako. The best Rem for accuracy is my VSSF in 22-250 and that does shoot well still ...25" when I am up to scratch even with Federal premium factory ammo but more consistent with reloads. I will be sad when the barrel is done in case I can not get it back to the same accuracy, without buying a match barrel.

cansniper
December 4, 2005, 10:20 PM
CMU sniper, you are wrong my friend....Sakos TRG are used as the primary sniper rifles in at least 6 countries. But the best opinion about sakos you will find at Mels sniper page.Check it out!!!:)

DavidJBlythe
December 5, 2005, 08:12 AM
NiB Remington 700 VS .308.

With Winchester .308 Super X ammo, I shot a .380 inch shot group at 100 yds last weekend. All I used was a folded towel for the butt-stock and a bipod.

High Planes Drifter
December 5, 2005, 08:39 AM
For the money Remington 700. You can pretty much spend as much as you want to on a rifle tho. If you ever get the chance pick up a Lakelander rifle and check it out. Its a tackdriver.

maximuss
December 5, 2005, 09:02 AM
+2 for Sako.

I have expensive toys but if it is all for accuracy, I would have bought Sako already.

BIGJACK
December 5, 2005, 09:53 AM
Has any of yall never shot a Browing??? I have remingtons, sako, rugar and Browing hunting rifles and have shot many Weatherbys belonging to my cousin in WY, who is a "weatherby freak" and the Browing stainless stalker out shoots um all, 100yds=hole in the paper(165gr with 57.5gr of 4350 for approx 2900fps) It will consistently group better than moa with all "factory" ammo and loads that I have tried.

Zak Smith
December 5, 2005, 03:48 PM
Most accurate hunting rifle? Hunting rifles are generally optimized for things besides accuracy, like: price, size, and light weight. Some or all of those factors can work against accuracy (e.g. price, weight).

I'd offer up the Accuracy International rifle as one of the most accurate factory rifles in the world- hunting be damned. I'd also put the SAKO TRG series in the same category.

Average Joe
December 5, 2005, 04:30 PM
Remington 700, most accurate rifle I own .

TJ Freak
December 5, 2005, 08:46 PM
Tikka guarentees.9" 3 shots at 100 yds IN WRITTING. Nuff said

Art Eatman
December 5, 2005, 11:14 PM
Var Evis, go back to Post #15...

:), Art

SeanB
December 6, 2005, 04:38 AM
+1 for Tikka yeah yeah I know its made with Sako input.......
In 1989 I bought a model 55 in 243 scoped it with a Leupold
worked up a handload and consistantly puts 5 into .75" and still does.
In 1992 I bought M65 in 7mmRM similar results.
Also have great results with 700 derivative by HS Precision in .17
Have Marlins/ Winchesters/Ruger/Krico/Beretta/Browning
But always reach for a Tikka

Try One :)

Regards
Sean

Cmu_Sniper
December 9, 2005, 04:54 PM
Well Cansniper, like I said. The proof is right in your face. I dont care if a hundred countries use the Sako, the United States is the best military in the world and has the best trained snipers in the world. Wide spread use of the Remington 700 by all branches of the military for the use of the sniper corps. So again, the proof is there, if you think your right so be it, anyone with common sense can see what Im talking about. But I'll give it to you the Sako is very accurate but not enough for military sniping.
________________________________________________
Behold the pale horse, and the man who rode upon him was death. And hell followed with him.

Zak Smith
December 9, 2005, 05:26 PM
Well Cansniper, like I said. The proof is right in your face. I dont care if a hundred countries use the Sako, the United States is the best military in the world and has the best trained snipers in the world. Wide spread use of the Remington 700 by all branches of the military for the use of the sniper corps. So again, the proof is there, if you think your right so be it, anyone with common sense can see what Im talking about. But I'll give it to you the Sako is very accurate but not enough for military sniping.
I seem to remember this thread being about "production" rifles (specifically hunting rifles). Neither the M40 nor the M24 were factory/production rifles. They are built to spec by armorers.

The TRG that cansniper refers to is a factory rifle.

raktrak
December 11, 2005, 11:15 AM
THE BEST RIFLEScould have been built in peace time 100 years ago when real hand crafting was done and the 1000 yard record was held by a muzzel loader. We all have different tastes and over look that the old boys did all this a century ago in Europe and the USA.:D :D :D

jdm92584
December 11, 2005, 11:42 AM
best rifles? remington of course. sorry guys millions of people round the world who can buy anything they want to snipe with(military and police) cant be wrong and also if youll take a second to look at who most of the people here have dubbed the most accurate youll see that me and all of them are right.........majority rules guys thats the way it is.

Zak Smith
December 11, 2005, 11:48 AM
With an argument as tight as that, I'm convinced. :eek:

Is that why the first things people who want an accurate Rem700-base rifle do are: true the action and replace the barrel? Or does Remington guarantee accuracy out of the box?

Just wondering, you know...

paratrooper
December 11, 2005, 05:11 PM
Just wondering if we aren't doing the "apples and oranges" thing . There are 2 standards for accuracy . One is a bunch of guys shooting at targets standing still and all the time in the world to get "comfy" before shooting . The other is a team dropped into a strange place , crawling for 2 days to just get close enough to make a shot that BETTER be good or the entire thing was for naught . I would offer the following thought . The lighter loads are good for the sport aspect of the equation . The heavier rounds with the recoil that goes with it just might be the "go to" round when conditions are less than perfect and you really Really REALLY gotta "reach out and touch someone". After all , when you miss the 10 ring it's "Aw Gee" , when you miss the intended target in the field it's "Aw ........" well , you know .

guntotin_fool
December 12, 2005, 12:03 AM
An impossible question to answer across the board.

I have both remingtons and sako's. My sako single shot in 6 PPC is the single most accurate rifle I have ever shot, better than some of my buddies expensive custom benchresters, and better than my 40X, the 6 ppc will shoot "ones", that is groups in the teens, .14 .16 .18 inchers. I have shot some groups that will hit the .3's but that can usually be traced back to my shooting ability. It is an unlovely kind of grey green colored walnut, with a matt type finish, not ugly enough to be tactical, not pretty enough to steal your heart, but shoot it and you are in love. I have a rem 7600 that people laugh at, but it will shoot into the sixes, and a safe full of remington 700's that will shoot good too, and a couple of 788's that cost less to buy than a tank of gas for my wifes suburban.

But that sako wins as the single most accurate rifle that I own.

k in AR
December 12, 2005, 08:01 PM
Yes I also have my favorites...., but in reality the "most accurate hunting" rifle is one that will put the first shot, "out of a cold, foul or clean barrel", at POA. That is what wins the meat! I have one Ruger #1 in 7x57, a Rem 700 in 308, and a Weatherby MKV in 30-06 that will actually do this. Even though I have other rifles that are much more accurate for shooting targets or competition (I.E extended strings), in hunting it is that first shot that counts!!!)

Chui
December 13, 2005, 03:52 PM
Steyr SSG PIIK. Never seen one that DIDN'T shoot under 1/2 inches at 100 yards.

BunkerBuster
December 26, 2005, 01:10 AM
Topic was "Most accurate rifle"

I've heard H&K PSG-1 is exteremely accurate. 50 round shots inside 3inch group or something at 300m. 50 rounds!

:)

Mannlicher
December 26, 2005, 01:57 PM
I say its a crap shoot. There are probably 15 brands that are good, and a given example from any of them could be 'the most accurate' rifle. Trick is to find which single example it would be :)

The British Soldier
December 26, 2005, 02:55 PM
I believe there is little comparison between the Remington 700 and a Sako; the accuracy and quality of the Sako is way ahead of the Remington. Possibly the only US built rifles that challenge it might be MacMillans; I have found them to be a fantastic weapon and certain elements of JSOC use MacMillan in preference to the M24.

If you have the muscles to carry one all day, however, the Accuracy International design beats everything - it just is not a practical hunting rifle, in the traditional sense. UK Snipers now carry their AI rifles in a 'drag-bag' attached to the ankle during the stalk.

k in AR
December 26, 2005, 03:23 PM
Bunker Buster, not to quibble but Bottom Gun original post said:
"Who makes the most accurate production hunting rifle?"
.....I think we are a might off topic now

TPAW
December 26, 2005, 04:10 PM
THE MOST ACCURATE RIFLE?

The One YOU Shoot Best, with the ammo IT likes!

CASE CLOSED!

Para Bellum
December 26, 2005, 06:22 PM
I understand that the Steyr Hunting rifles are hard to beat. They use the same system and barrels for the hunting rifles (Pro Hunter Heavy Barrel) as for the sniper rifles (SSG 04 and Tactical Elite).

GhostRider32
December 26, 2005, 06:50 PM
All of this discussion about the most accurate hunting rifle......... the simple truth is, most of these rifles mentioned will outshoot most of the people here so does it really matter which one is the most accurate if they will all outshoot us anyway?

colt
December 26, 2005, 07:25 PM
but it's sure as hell isnt no sako. lets see
1 hammerforged barrel
2 action (wobly)
3 european steels


it has to be the 700TLR or some other variation it will shoot 1/2" groups all day.

sorry if I offend, I just hate it when european companies try to claim they are as good as american

mathman
December 26, 2005, 07:46 PM
sorry if I offend, I just hate it when european companies try to claim they are as good as american

Yet your signature is from H&K...a European country.

reticle
December 26, 2005, 11:56 PM
I have many rifles. My favorite and most consistent is the Sako TRG21.

Zorro
December 27, 2005, 01:57 AM
Savage M110.

Often over looked because they are a little less expensive.

Wisby
December 27, 2005, 11:24 AM
Just wanted to add a little something. I have a Ruger M77 .280, My brother a Rem 700 .270 and my Dad a Browning A-bolt Stainless Stalker .270. All of them have the same scope a Bushnell 3200 Elite. We all like each others Rifles and have shot and killed with them, but My dad's Browning has the best grp's no matter which one of us is shooting. Whats even worse is his is left handed and me and my brother are right handed.
I'm actually putting a new trigger and stock on my M77 and getting some other work done to outshoot his gun this year at the range.

colt
December 27, 2005, 03:36 PM
they make some awesome pistols and the imfamous mp-5. and i dont even think its there slogan, i think its smith and wessons.

Average Joe
December 27, 2005, 06:06 PM
Remington 700

ethernectar
December 27, 2005, 10:07 PM
THE MOST ACCURATE RIFLE?

The One YOU Shoot Best, with the ammo IT likes!

CASE CLOSED!

+1 for TPAW.

Someday I'll give a Cooper a go... Happy with my Remy 700 right now, and another one on the way... But the rifle is only one part of the equation.

Most accurate mechanically speaking is probably some of those crazy rail guns they shoot unlimited benchrest comps with.

southern_bamababe
December 27, 2005, 10:33 PM
i'd have to go with the Remington model 700 line...very nice and accurate...ive killed everything ive shot at with it.

Para Bellum
December 28, 2005, 03:03 AM
All of this discussion about the most accurate hunting rifle......... the simple truth is, most of these rifles mentioned will outshoot most of the people here so does it really matter which one is the most accurate if they will all outshoot us anyway?
:p Good to have some wisdom around here. He's quite right.

Olaf
December 28, 2005, 03:25 AM
"but it's sure as hell isnt no god damn sako. lets see
1 hammerforged barrel
2 crappy action (wobly)
3 european steels


it has to be the 700TLR or some other variation it will shoot 1/2" groups all day.

sorry if I offend, I just hate it when european companies try to claim they are as good as american"


colt,

While you are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else....and what you have said is MERELY your opinion....I would like to ask....how would YOU know ?

1) ALL Remingtons use hammer-forged barrels...and have for many years.

2) What, in your great expertise, at the age of 14....is defined as a "crappy" action ? "wobly", you say. Perhaps you have handled a Sako....but you have absolutely no qualification to judge what is a good action....and what is a "crappy" action. Or, perhaps you have already completed an engineering degree ? Perhaps you have many years of experience with all types of rifles ? No.....I didn't think so.

3) As for European steels, a billet of 4140 chrome molydenum steel (for example), is the SAME, wherever it is produced. The Europeans, in fact, were producing high quality steels, well before the USA. So, your statement is nonsense.

You'd do well, lad, to try and learn some things about the world - before you become so opinionated.

Art Eatman
December 28, 2005, 09:09 AM
I guess I oughta add a thousand bucks on my insurance policy for my "rare, nay, unique" Sako. I always figured that if you can put three shots behind a dime for a hundred-yard playtime, you have a pretty good rifle. I didn't know that mine was all that exceptional.

:D:D:D

Art

SavageSniper
December 28, 2005, 05:52 PM
Just go ahead and speak your mind Olaf, don't hold anthing back!!:p :D
As for European steel, German steel is legandary. We all know that if it wasn't for Hitler having to run things his way, not his Generals and the sheer will power, industry and brave hearts of the Allies that European(German) steel would have made a MAJOR impact on the world today. Wait a minute, it did.:rolleyes:
As for the most accurate rifle- as alot of you said, the one you shoot the best. The most accurate rifle i have ever had was an old Browning .22 auto that was soo loose and wobbly that it should have been retired. That thing shot scarry accurate. I do not know how well it grouped, but a squirrel at the top of a tree was as good as in the pot!

Olaf
December 28, 2005, 06:52 PM
If I sounded harsh to colt....then I apologize.

I am always frustrated by those who make wild generalizations and insist that they have the answers....when, usually, they are merely expressing an opinion (that may well not be based on any facts). Why people do this....I couldn't guess. It makes absolutely no sense. When one is dealing with technical issues, the only intelligent course of action is to have one's facts in order - before making any assertions.

Certainly, none of us are perfect - and we all, at some time, have been guilty of this sort of thing. However, it disturbs me to see one so young start down this path - a path that only leads to ignorance.

lodestar
December 28, 2005, 07:01 PM
Too many factors to make enough difference for it to outweigh ANYONES other criteria. If accuracy alone trumps all then you need to get a custom rifle to be satisfied with that last tenth of an inch. There are too many other important factors to consider. Pick up the damn rifle, point it, work the action and then hold her back and look at her. If you dont have a stupid grin by then, put her back and move on down the line!:cool:

Art Eatman
December 28, 2005, 07:03 PM
Olaf, just be glad you ain't a moderator in L&P.

:D, Art

colt
December 28, 2005, 08:37 PM
sorry i guess i was just having a bad day or something when i wrote that. i guess i just love american firearms. and i have the answer, the ed brown rifles are real tack drivers.

mathman
December 28, 2005, 08:43 PM
H&K is an exception

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

they make some awesome pistols and the imfamous mp-5. and i dont even think its there slogan, i think its smith and wessons.

No, once again you are wrong...it is H&Ks slogan...and there are exceptions to every rule...as you get older you'll learn that this is the case. ;)

RugerOldArmy
December 29, 2005, 12:46 AM
The original question seems to be more: 'which rifle of a given category is most accurate by design' , to which there may be an answer. But when asking a question such as this on an internet gun board, you'll surely get opinions based on ownership, opinion, and casual experience.

Generalizing that one production rifle is more accurate than another, may in general, be true. But the execution of the design, and variances in the build from one rifle to the next play havoc with the rule. How well is the specific rifle action bedded, and how well is the barrel free-floated? Scope mounts? Each rifle seems to be a rule unto itself.

Totally ignored is individual rifle-shooter fit, trigger, cartridge and caliber, sights and scopes, and the specifics of the load or reload.

It would be boring, and I'd have little to tune, if this weren't the case.

....but I don't think a Savage, or a CZ, or a Howa, or a M70, or an a-bolt, or a 700, or a Sako, or a Tikka, or a Weatherby couldn't be a good start. Second steps are bedding, free-floating, reloading, and lots of practice.

It should be noted that even among a specific model, from a specific manufacturer, there are differences that manufacturers acknowledge. Winchester used to test fire rifles, designating them as 1-in-100, and 1-in-1000. Weatherby does this now, with the MOA versions of their rifles (some of which are made by Howa, BTW). Sako's burst barrels on their stainless (t3?) point out manufacturing variances....that probably, almost certianly, aren't limited to Sako. It's a global economy, and materials, parts, and work are farmed out...

It seems to me that of the three basic shooting skills, a novice can most easily be satisfied by shooting rifle groups at 100 yards in no wind. Damn near everyone can shoot MOA from a bench with a capable rifle-load.

...move the target out to 300+, introduce wind, offhand shooting, or hunting positions....and the key questions change considerably.

Just my $.02

colt
December 29, 2005, 01:55 AM
please, nobody treat me like a little kid. you say 4140 chrome molydenum like i dont know what it means and it is going to intimidate me, i know about steel. i dont mean to sound cocky but if you think im some kid that thinks he knows about guns your wrong, i do. you will soon see that i am not as dumb as you think

colt
December 29, 2005, 01:57 AM
please, nobody treat me like a little kid. you say 4140 chrome molydenum like inferior being and it is going to intimidate me i know about steel. i dont mean to sound cocky but if you think im some kid that thinks he knows about guns your wrong, i do. you will soon see that i am not as dumb as you think

Olaf
December 29, 2005, 08:10 AM
colt,

You have to understand that when you express strong opinions, which are completely without basis in fact, you will be challenged on it. So will we all, regardless of age. I mentioned your age only as an obvious reference to your limited experience (and education) - which is an unassailable fact. There was no real intent to patronise you - other than to put you back into place as regards your ridiculous comments before. I would expect the same myself, if I made such wild assertions. I did not intend to "intimidate" you, or to insult you. If that is the impression you took from my comments, then you have my apology.

It sounds as if you have a bit of an axe to grind. This is not useful. You have nothing to prove to me, or anyone else. Just participate in the forums, as would anyone .....but do have the care to be sure of your information, before asserting a technical point. This place is a great learning resource - and we all learn from what we share here. Be open to that. Sorry, but you are too young to have formed solid conclusions on most of life's issues. Nevertheless, if you state something as fact, that is backed up by solid information - I'm sure that your assertions will be respected as would those of anyone else. Your opinions are welcome, as are you.... just don't think that you will never be "called" on them. None of us enjoy that luxury - and rightly so.

Art Eatman
December 29, 2005, 11:06 AM
Google for "Houston Warehouse".

Some guys had access to a warehouse wherein they set up a 300-yard indoor range for benchrest shooting. Most of the actual firing was done at 100 yards. Lots of testing of all manner of combinations of gear and loads.

THE most accurate will never be a box-stock factory or non-benchrest custom rifle. Can't be. Won't have all the bells and whistles for the very limited purpose of the benchrest rifle.

As far as brands, I've had various ones that all would shoot inside one MOA for five shots. Some took minor tweaking with the forearm, but that's trivial.

And that's why I never bother myself with this nonsense of bad-mouthing the various brands. They're all as near equal as makes no nevermind. :)

Art

The British Soldier
December 29, 2005, 12:26 PM
Wind your neck in

a passing comment that 'sorry if I offend, I just hate it when european companies try to claim they are as good as american' does tend to upset people over here. I know that many of the European arms manurfacturers make rifles that would be the envy of any US design house, let alone the engineering side that makes them. While the US was still measuring tolerance in thousands of an inch; companies such as Sako, Sauer and HK were well into the process of measuring tolerance in microns.

Claiming minutes of angle accuracy is a poor reflection of the overall quality of the weapon; most rifles will shoot very well when new - the test of time is the true test and that prize has been claimed by companies such as Sako, Sauer, HK & SIG.

Get your overall facts right and rejoin.

By the way, your logo is copyrighted to HK - rethink something original.

Olaf
December 29, 2005, 12:27 PM
" As far as brands, I've had various ones that all would shoot inside one MOA for five shots. Some took minor tweaking with the forearm, but that's trivial.

And that's why I never bother myself with this nonsense of bad-mouthing the various brands. They're all as near equal as makes no nevermind. "


Art, I can't say that I am in complete concurrence with your use of English....but I absolutely agree with your premise. All of these arguments about the relative accuracy between brands....are almost always simply rubbish. Actual experience with different brands and models can and does vary....but no one can say that a particular brand/ model of production rifle
is consistently better than all of the others. That simply isn't so.

jtb1967
December 29, 2005, 12:57 PM
On average, I'd go with Sako with Tikka bringing up a close second.

mathman
December 29, 2005, 03:49 PM
From all that I hear, the Savage is hard to beat. I plan to buy one soon and will then have more useful feedback.

Art Eatman
December 29, 2005, 03:59 PM
Olaf, I have been known to mess around with the English language a little bit. I guess I never have truly enjoyed being confined to "precise and erudite".

It all goes downhill when I get to drawlin' and twangin' with some old boar dinosaur of a west Texas rancher. Even worse in my CB radiddio daze.

:D, Art

Jseime
December 29, 2005, 04:18 PM
but it's sure as hell isnt no sako. lets see
1 hammerforged barrel
2 action (wobly)
3 european steels

not to be nitpicky but hammer forged barrels are known to be some of the most accurate in the world

a Sako's bolt is so smooth and buttery it brings a tear to my eye every time i touch one (not like my *$&@#^@&$%&#@## Savage which wont feed more than one round from the 4 shot magazine)

and if im not mistaken the Germans make some sweet sweet steel

The whole european bashing thing just doesnt work, european rifles are some of the best rifles ever made (Heard of a Mauser 98 or perhaps a Lee-Enfield?). Im not saying that american rifle companies dont make great rifles because they do but the european rifles are just as good and in the case of the Sako/Tikka beautiful as well.

To answer what the thread had started out as i think that there isnt one most accurate production hunting rifle. Every company out there seems to turn out a good product but all of them have lemons and all of them have a few that are better than average. Even the mighty remington has turned out lemons so has savage and winchester and browning and everyone else. sometimes we are lucky enough to get one of the rifles that are amazingly accurate for no apparent reason. I guess what im trying to say here is that everyone makes good rifles so go pick the nicest one you can afford and it will more likely than not shoot for ya.

The British Soldier
December 29, 2005, 06:21 PM
Do you think that there is some 'not made here, not interested' mindset going on here?

Art Eatman
December 29, 2005, 09:47 PM
The main difference I see among rifles is the amount of final finish--which affects the price.

Remember that the primary diference between the pre-'64 and '64 Winchester Model 70s was the finish. Yet, my experience with a 1965-ish Model 70 in .264 Winchester was that the critter could drive tacks.

I bought a Weatherby MarkV in 1970 for $315 and out the door. I bought a new Chevy 3/4-ton van for $3,100 turn the key and go. Compare today's MarkV and a new Chevy 3/4-ton van and the comparative increase in prices...

Guns are still a pretty good deal, and almost all of today's stuff will shoot tighter groups than yesterday's.

Art

armedtotheteeth
December 29, 2005, 11:16 PM
Dont know if it is a "production" hunting rifle, But it is really ,really mean accurate 1/4 - 1/2 ", and i hunt with it, obviously. Ar-30 from Armalite. Brained this 10 point Buck, The exit wound is visible in the pic.He didt run far, no more than an inch or 2. 16547

Chui
December 30, 2005, 06:47 PM
Steyr SSG PIIK, Fabrique Nationale SPR BOTH will shoot under 1/2 minute of angle all day long. Both have hammer forged chromoly steel barrels, both are hard chrome lined.

H&K SR-9 and PSG-1 will shoot 1/2 minute of angle at 100 to 300 yards.

Springfield Armory M1A Super Match will shoot under 3/4 minute of angle with optics at 100 and 200 yards.

I imagine the Sako TRGS-22 and Sigarms bolt gun are both around 1/2 minute of angle shooters with Match ammo.

RugerGP100357
December 30, 2005, 07:49 PM
I have very good experiences with Sauer str200. Its very weatherstable and it takes a beating. good to use too. Of course the STR is not a good hunting rifle, but you can get hunting and tactical ones too.

I've fired over 15000 rounds with mine and i must say: it doesn't get much better than this...

dogngun
December 31, 2005, 08:14 AM
I can only tell you the most accurate rifle I have ever owned - a late 1970's Savage 110 in .30-06. , second was a Remington 788 in ,243, third was a sportered mil surp 1938 Mauser 98, made by Sauer, still in 7.92.

After that, it gets a little muddy.

Mark

Holman
December 31, 2005, 09:23 PM
THE MOST ACCURATE RIFLE?

The One YOU Shoot Best, with the ammo IT likes!

CASE CLOSED!

Any Questions?

Redneck_Riot
December 23, 2006, 10:24 PM
I am new to this forum and would like to say hello to all of you, I am an avid shooter and have been well trained by both civilian contractors and US Military instructors, in the art of long Range tactical engagement, and I will say without reservation that Americans produce some extremly accurate Rifles, I am an American and am very proud of this countries achievements and in no way would discredit this.

However, to make a bold statemet that American Rifles are in any form superior to that of European is a complete fabrication. with the exception of John Brownings design's, all modern day bolt actions are copies of Paul Mauser And he was a German citizen. I have had the opportunity to fire quite a few of the rifles you all have mentioned: Remington 700 based platforms, Sako, Tikka, AI, Blazer, Savage, H.S. Precision and the old man Mcmillian's master crafted beauties.

And all of theese are so similar in terms of overall performance and accuracy that if you took the barreled actions and set them in identical chassis and fed them identical match grade loads I'll bet you would have a hard time telling the difference down range. The US Military has fielded the Remington Action over other european counterparts in IMOP due to the tolerance differences, Sako and other fine european actions are built so tight with the exception of the (ARTIC WARFARE AI) that a hostile environment like sand, mud, ice and snow would most certainly lead to jamming

The Military has no concern with target "10" ring accuracy, they base their descision on real world scenarios, Snipers dont have the luxury of bench rest's, calm nerves, and all the other pleasant variables such as time that we enjoy on any given civilian range, Sniper's have to count on a rifle that will deliver when their lives and others depend on it shot after shot, 1/4 and sub moa looks great as range trophies but lets face it A kill is a kill and a head shot is just as good as a heart or other vital organ the end result is still the same.

Colt- You are entitled to your opinion, however you must be prepared to be qualified from time to time by others with a vast amount of knowledge here on this forum, I challenge you to ask a combat veteran from World War 2 if he thinks that American Sniper rifles were more accurate than the Germans! Did you also know that Th US Springfield 1903 is a copy of the mauser action? and that prior to the fielding of the M1 Garand , US infantry rifles were inferior to that of the german's? My 2 cents- my life 1 rifle then the answer is simple the one that performs best in my hands shot after shot

My choice Steyr SSG 69 with fine as whine European Swarovski GLass and match grade black hills ammunition. I have fed it with a steady diet of match loads and can print paper well out to 500 meters.

I look forward to being a well involved member here on TFL-

Redneck_Riot
December 24, 2006, 11:49 AM
BUMP for christmas eve

auburnboattail
December 24, 2006, 06:44 PM
The one that is in your hands when pulling the trigger.

Art Eatman
December 24, 2006, 07:52 PM
Redneck Riot, much of what you say is true. I will quibble a bit with one item:

"Snipers dont have the luxury of bench rest's, calm nerves, and all the other pleasant variables such as time that we enjoy on any given civilian range."

Snipers generally work diligently at having a stable shooting platform. There have been several excellent articles in Soldier of Fortune magazine, with photos, of snipers' setups while in action. Further, calm nerves seem to be a requisite for them, and their own commentaries seem to bear that out.

As example: Reporter: "What do you feel when you look through the scope and shoot somebody?" Sniper: "Recoil."

Art

Chui
December 24, 2006, 10:33 PM
The most accurate barrels (generally) are rifled, stainless steel barrels: SS machines better than chromoly and will have a smoother surface finish. Additional polishing is required with chromoly. The cold hammer forged barrels can have huge amounts of internal stresses but with proper heat treating much of it can be relieved. Deep Cryogenic Tempering will further relieve any residual stresses. Hard chrome is a great thing IFF (if and only if) it is properly applied and one can hold the necessarily high tolerances. Do it all properly and one will have:

H&K SR-9
H&K PSG-1
Steyr
FN SPR
Sako TRG
Tikka

Rifles with supreme practical accuracy and barrel life. One reason for the barrel life outside of the CrN is the lands are not "sharp" as they are with a rifled barrel. They aren't necessarily polygonal, but they cannot have the 90 degree shoulders. The barrels are then micropolished and CrN applied.

My personal SSG PIIK with Hensoldt 10X42 optics is a true sub 1/2 minute of angle rifle (at 100 yds). I have groups that are 1/4" at 100 yards. The largest are 0.55" at 100 yards. This rifle has the following faults:

cold hammer forged barrel
hard chrome plating
flexible receiver
flexible stock

We all know that proper handloads will improve the bench groups so I should explain that the PIIK was shot using surplus 168 grain M852. I'd pit that rifle against any production rifle for benchrest accuracy. There are probably better rifles to take into harm's way such as the superb FN SPR A3G which has a factory warranty for 1/2 minute of angle with Match Ammo for the life of the rifle. It's a more robust piece of hardware than the SSG with the McMillan stock and being Marine Devcon bedded and no chintsy polymer magazines and trigger guard. :barf: But I LOVE the thing. It will print as far as the optics are calibrated for - in this case 1/4 minute clicks up to 500 meters.

The Remington 700 is a hit or miss affair, unfortunately. If you have one with a short throat then one should have no problem shooting it well - assuming it's hammer forged barrel is good. If it does not have a short throat then shooting 175 grain handloads should rectify this a bit.

I've not shot the Sako TRGS-22 .308/7.62 NATO tactical rifle, but I suspect that it performs like it's Austrian cousin. Yes, they are considered "boutique items" by many since 700 actions can be had for relatively little coin and be transformed into G.A. Precision, Iron Brigade Armory and other masterpieces.

I've shot five (5) SSGs and the worst was a 0.75 minute of angle. This one was a 26 inch PII rifle. The other four were the 20 inch PIIK version and ALL of them were sub 1/2 minute of angle. I've found this to be better than most 700 LTR rifles, but certainly some of the LTRs should duplicate what the PIIK can.

I don't think you could go wrong with a 700 action as it could be customized (lightly or highly), but Steyr, Sako and Tikka make some very accurate hunting rifles which I've not experienced.

Accuracy International also makes a might fine piece of hardware. The one I played with shot just under 1/2 inch with 175 grain Federal Gold Medal Match. This rifle was shot alongside an Iron Brigade Armory M40 which performed likewise.

Just my 2 cents.

BigLebowski65
December 24, 2006, 10:46 PM
Since so many brand names were spoken of I'm surprised nobody mentioned Erma SR 100 and its successor DSR 1 and the expected extreme accuracy(some sources state sub-.2 MOA):
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn48-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn38-e.htm
I'm not sure how good of a hunting rifle those would be though.
As for Remington I think its the undisputed king of value. I do belive that with Remington you get the best bang for your buck.

Rustic
December 25, 2006, 10:06 AM
Differences of opinion over most accurate make or "best" chambering. Heartwarming. I love it.

I wish I had something to add, but you all have pretty well covered the waterfront. Is there anyone out there, however, that doesn't wish for just a bit more accuracy? Mebbe if I tighten the forward action screw 5 more inch pounds, or throw some pillars in or a v-block...

The rifles that stick in my mind are the ones I foolishly sold (my first deer gun, a 1969 Rem 700 adl in 6mm) or the beauties that I just couldn't put the time or money into to make them shoot (e.g. M-70 fwt in 7x57).

heavychevyman93
December 26, 2006, 05:57 AM
savage is the running. have savage 7mm rem mag 1" 5 sht groups at 100 yds :)

Pointer
December 26, 2006, 01:59 PM
Who makes the most accurate production hunting rifle?
My buddy says Weatherby, I say it's Sako.
Opinions?
You are right... Sako will hit dimes all day at 100 yards bench rested.:)

Your buddy couldn't be more wrong...

Weatherby guarantees 1.5 inch groups... but that means they are promising the rounds will be inside about a 2.12" circle which is multiplied exponentially at greater and greater ranges...

Weatherby has select models with a premium on accuracy...
Those are pretty good too... but you must get that model at an extra price... and they're already pricey...

You shouldn't have to pay extra for a barrel on a rifle that costly... :rolleyes:

Off the shelf, almost any Sako... hits the dime... every time... ;)

el Divino
December 26, 2006, 06:00 PM
MOST ACCURATE RIFLE??????

THE ONE THAT BULLSEYE IN THE FIRST SHOT, :D at least in my 30 +/- yrs worlwide hunting the BEST of the BEST is killing with one clean shot, and I have use almost every brand of commercial rifle available, even some custom military rifles and some departmental store rifles as Sears, Western Auto and Montgomery Ward.

One of the most accurate customs I own is a 1917 Enfiled in 300 Win Mag less than 1/2" groups at 300 yards

BlaqkWulf
May 29, 2008, 05:29 PM
There is no such thing as the most inherently accurate ,at best ,given production variables, material quality,mechanical conditions,human error,etc. you can only approximate which manufacturer has the best consistency rates with a specific weapon produced. 1) Most accurate at what range and grade(inclination/declination,which direction fired , parialic planetary rotation affects accuracy at ultra long range due to the earth's motion) 2)With bullet weight factored in,most accurate in what known conditions ,in my personal experience utilizing five long arms; The Sako T22(.338 Lapua),Savage MDL.12(.308),Wincester MDL.70 (7mm STW),Remington Rangemaster(.30-338),a hand built .308-378 built on a new Mauser 98 action from Clio,a Shilen 26" fluted 1"dia.,dbl.crowned barrel with a Mcmillan A-2 Tactical stock,my hand made embarrasses the **** out of my production guns using a cheap assed Bausch & Lomb Series 5000 scope at 860MTRS. (860 MTRS being the longest range I have shot on to date),can't wait to get to a 1000MTR+ range. NOTE: All of my long arms are similarly barreled all other specs are stockwith the exception of my LR Custom.

Dezynco
May 29, 2008, 05:41 PM
My Sporterized 1917 Enfield is the most accurate rifle in the world!:D

rdoggsilva
May 30, 2008, 04:37 PM
The Remington 700, one of the best rifles I have ever used.

fisherman66
May 31, 2008, 08:40 AM
This thread has at least 9 lives. Where are the ninjas and zombie killers when you need them?

People who demand an accurized rifle don't own many rifles in factory condition. I'm not all that picky about a hunting rifle, but I play with little pads near the forearm tip and different loads to see what she's capable of.

I've got a little Ruger #1 RSI that's putting up tinnie, tiny little cloverleaf groups using factory ammo with just a 1-4 power topper. I know a benchrest shooter who is getting .35" average groups at 50 yards and has a best of .17" at that same distance of of the same model Ruger #1 RSI. Only modification to that rifle is a Kepplinger trigger.

For those of you that don't know about the Ruger #1 RSI...it has a full length two piece walnut stock. It's not floated or bedded. It has a falling block action. It's the antithesis of what most benchresters look for.

SKYDOG308
May 31, 2008, 09:22 AM
This reminds me of the Engine Oil threads on my old Motorcycle forums I used to belong to.

My hat's off to the Remington 700 for first place

I'm thumbs down on Winnie'70

My wallet says Savage goes in teh rack and I have two in 308 that will shoot with anything posted here except teh 1917 in 300 Mag

nuff said...the cold shot gets the worm!

fishmagnet
May 31, 2008, 10:53 AM
Not sure which is the 'best' or 'most'.....but my Sako 75 Varmint in .223 will thread needles inside a coyotes ear at 200yds quite nicely.

The light bull barrel helps keep things cool all the while prairie dogs scurry for cover! ;)

jonutarr
June 17, 2008, 09:15 AM
Wow this thread is almost 10 years old :eek:

the answer is easy

H-S Precision makes the most accurate factory rifle

you will pay top $ for them though

Art Eatman
June 17, 2008, 09:22 AM
Ten years? We ain't gonna try for eleven...