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View Full Version : Which OC Spray to get - OC only or OC/CS combo?


qkrthnu
June 8, 2002, 12:10 AM
I'm looking to get some OC spray. CCW isn't an option here in Hamilton County, OH. Not yet anyway. And I want some for my wife also since she doesn't like guns. Not yet anyway. ;)

I think I've narrowed it down to one of these.

#1. Fox Labs 2% 5.3milllion SHU OC spray

#2. Mace Tripple Action OC/CN spray

Which of these would be better? Looks like the Fox Labs is the more potent OC, but the Mace has the added tear gas. I'm not sure which is going to be more effective.

Coltdriver
June 8, 2002, 12:35 AM
I believe you can get OC as high as 15%.

I would not bother with CS.

A good blast of OC is an awesome fight stopper. Just be aware of the wind!

Greybeard
June 8, 2002, 06:40 AM
Don't be too hung up on % of OC - 5% v.s 10% etc. SHC is most important along with range and pattern. Generally three basic patterns: stream, cone or fog. Like handguns, there are some "tradeoffs". For example, stream type often has greatest range with least blowback, but MUST be accurately directed to eyes. Most reputable mfgrs. products have "expiration date" clearly printed on each unit. Classes sometimes offered in metro areas.

bowhnter
June 8, 2002, 07:11 AM
Go for OC in the heaviest concentration you can find. The higher the % the stronger it is. worked it the jail a few years back. We had a "party pack" (23oz bottle sixe) of OC. Fight in the gym. It had the stream nozzle and let me tell you..........everyone was choking, myself included. I wasn't even hit. All you need to do is hit them in the face the OC will do the rest. Don't buy the fogger.
You'll want to keep it AWAY from you.

Coltdriver
June 8, 2002, 08:17 AM
I was in Dallas on business one time, on the way to a resturant called the Blue Goose. It was summertime.

We stopped at a stop light and in the opposing lanes were two ladies in a car being harrassed by two fellows in a car next to them.

One of those girls reached out her window and blasted a fogger in through the drivers side door of the fellows car, you could see the fog coming out the other side.

The light turned green at almost the same time and the ladies sped away.

Just as quickly the two fellows jumped out of their car frantically pulling their t shirts off and swearing profusely.

We drove on too. I have always been amazed at how quickly the OC ended the confrontation.

Coronach
June 8, 2002, 09:04 AM
The only problem with OC-only is that you must get it in the opponent's eyes for any kind of reliability in stopping the aggression. CS/CN has the added advantage of making your foe think that he can't breathe, even if you just get it on or around his face.

My PD switched from a OC/CS combo to OC-only, and frankly, we are trying to convince the ordies to switch back. Now, this is not the best test of true performance (cops like to whine and blame equipment), but it is something to consider.

Of course, if it can debilitate him from a near miss, it can also debilitate you.

Mike

Coronach
June 8, 2002, 09:05 AM
Oh, and of the OC-only variety, Fox Labs is pretty damned brutal. I got hit with it in training, and thought I was melting. :D

Mike

bowhnter
June 8, 2002, 09:38 AM
The only problem with OC-only is that you must get it in the opponent's eyes for any kind of reliability in stopping the aggression.

Not true. I don't know where this info came from but it's just not true. OC works on mucus membranes. Any wet tissue. Eyes, nose , throat. If you get it in the eyes, you can't see. In the nose or mouth, you'll breathe it in. It's immediate result in your throat will constrict because of irritation. Your face feels like it's on fire, as does anything else that it contacts. A 1 sec. shot of OC ANYWHERE in the face WILL bring an attack to an immediate halt. I have all kinds of experience to this effect. A short story: A BG came in on PCP. Completely freaked out. He took a couple blasts in the face from about 5 feet away. Couldn't see or breathe well. He stopped long enough to get him hog tied. This stuff works. BTW, that was a 10% solution.

KPS
June 8, 2002, 06:58 PM
SHU's are what you should be looking at for effectiveness.The higher the better.www.foxlabs produces the hottest stuff on the market at 5.3 million.A foam might me better in certain circumstances because it sticks to the BG and won't infect you.A spray will work with multiple attackers as long as you are aware of the direction of wind or can exit the room asap.Fox spray works if you even hit your target in the back of head or front of chest.It is nasty stuff but allows an attacker to be functional again after about 10-15 minutes.I think this is to allow LEO's from having to babysit a BG until he can see/function again.

Greybeard
June 8, 2002, 08:23 PM
I'll second what Bowhunter said about inability to breath and what KPS said about SHCs. Did the instructor course back when 5% OC was standard and had to take a direct hit in a dark alley behind a strip mall where class was held.

Immediate involuntary closure of eyes. Desperate need to cough, but could not get air into lungs to be able to cough! Smelled sorta like wierd tobacco to me. Within a few seconds, burning sensation set in on skin that felt like someone has stuffed my head and neck in a microwave oven, then walked away.

In order to keep from losing my balance any worse than I already had, I asked my partner to set me down against brick wall. While sitting there, I clearly remember some other guys who were in the relay before me moaning ... and wailing ... or talking to the Lord... ect. ... and thinking "Gee, I hope this does not keep getting worse and I start acting like that!".

Pretty raunchy experience, but a good course. We were taught however, that OC is not necessarily effective - for whatever reasons - on approximatley 5% to 10% of "recipients".

Coronach
June 8, 2002, 11:15 PM
Ok, allow me to clarify. In order to get the quickest and most reliable incapacitation, you must hit the eyes. OC/CS mixtures seem to give a little more rapid respiratory distress from near misses and general facial hits.

The Fox Labs stuff did a nasty job on both my respiration and my eyesight. Of course, the trainer got it in my nose and mouth. I have no doubt that I would have been a hurt puppy even if she hadn't hosed my eyes as well...but the respiratory distress didn't really set in, for me at least, until well after my eyes wanted to screw completely shut.

My thoughts on this may well be a product of experiences with the three sprays I have used/had used on me. Fox Labs (OC only)was liquid death, Freeze (OC/CS) seemed to work very rapidly and is forgiving of poor aim, and Def-Tec (OC only) seems to work, but takes a few moments to kick in, and does not really rapidly incapacitate unless you hit the eyes.

Mike

LBC
June 9, 2002, 05:04 PM
I'll second the Fox Labs vote. I looked around for a while and, with a new baby to walk in the park, around the block, etc., I got my wife Fox Labs spray and an ASP. Check out their web site -- they carry many different types of sprays.

GunGeek
June 10, 2002, 01:47 AM
Pretty raunchy experience, but a good course. We were taught however, that OC is not necessarily effective - for whatever reasons - on approximatley 5% to 10% of "recipients".
Never been hit with the spay, but in the Marines you had to do a gas mask drill in a CS filled room once a year, Me and a few other people never got worse then teary eyes, but some people looked like they were ready to die. Don't get me wrong, I would have thought twice about attacking a person as my eyes teared up, but in a life and death situation I would have been able to fight. Anyways I just wanted to reinforce the comment on OC not being 100% effective on everyone so I wouldn't stick around and laugh after you spray someone, let the spray loose and high tail it out of there, consider it a deterent and not a stopper.

Planning on joining the PD soon, quess I'll see what effect the spray has on me then.

cpileri
June 10, 2002, 03:20 AM
While I am a Fox Labs fan, what about the Alaskan Bear-rated stuff?
I spoke with the fellow at Foxlabs, and he said that his spray was not rated against any near-sized animal. Probably for liability and lack-of-testing, but still.
Any comments on "bear"?http://www.sportsmansguide.com/showad.html?promo_code=WX1&item_id=54475&ticket=13122299&urlseq=1103182290
Carl

krept
June 10, 2002, 04:47 PM
Ok, I know what they are, but what does CS stand for? OC = oleoresin capsicum, right?, a concentrated version of the chemical that makes peppers hot. Side note - anyone tried Daves Ultimate Insanity Sauce? That suff is truly off the hook. One drop will screw you up, I PROMISE (and I've worked in several mexican restaurants as a kid and make lots of salsa).


Thus it follows that I would think that the higher concentrated products or higher Scoville units could very well kill someone with athsma. Make them suffer for a long time too and could set you up for a civil lawsuit? I've heard of a LEO suing the department in training because he was sprayed in training and suffered 50% damage to his corneas or something.

As far as the bear stuff... I don't think it's really that different, only bigger and under higher pressure, no? I know they claim the pore opening addition but I doubt you are going to get it on the skin unless you are talking eyelids or nose.

Coronach
June 10, 2002, 11:29 PM
CS is basically tear gas. CN is a similar substance that was used by the military, but it was determined to be somewhat bad for you (as in, long term damage of some sort) and as such is no longer used.

Or, I might have that backwards, or completely wrong. They kinda glossed over the stuff we don't use in academy riot training.

Mike

pdmoderator
June 11, 2002, 12:24 PM
Ok, I know what they are, but what does CS stand for?Ortho-chlorobenzylidene-malononitrile. (Thought you'd be fascinated... :D )

See the increasingly indispensible howstuffworks: http://www.howstuffworks.com/question340.htm

- pdmoderator

Bogie
June 11, 2002, 02:54 PM
I had a guy in our basic training company that took off his mask, looked around, asked what the big deal was, told the DI what he wanted to know (name, rank, serial number), and then leisurely strolled to the door.

I don't know if I'd trust my life to a can of spray from Sportsman's Guide.

I've got a friend who will put a couple of tablespoons of Dave's Insanity Sauce on a plate of scrambled eggs, and just chow down.

qkrthnu
June 11, 2002, 11:44 PM
So sounds like the CS isn't all that bad to be hit with.

I guess the only real advantage to a combo spray would be if the person is one of the 1% that OC doesn't affect, chances are they're probally not also immune to the tear gas.

I ended up getting the Fox Labs OC. I like that it's super hot (5.3 million SHU) but since it's only a 2% mixture will suposedly absorb into victim quicker.

I figure if it forces their eys shut even 1/4 second faster than a thicker mixture it'd be worth it. I'm more concerned about delay of effect rather than if it will last 20 minutes vs 2 hours. It's not too hard to run away from a blind attacker.

I hope Ohio comes up with a CCW solution soon. Even though I'll probally always carry OC for those not quite life threatening situations, I'd feel much safer packin real heat vs the unleaded solution. :)