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View Full Version : With NO training in hand-to-hand or knives


Lavan
May 20, 2002, 09:58 AM
what is the single BEST tactic if one is cornered with only a small knife?

Assuming talking has not resolved the incident, should you:

a: Surreptitiously try as many STABS as possible ANYWHERE.

b: Try for a controlled jugular cut.

c: Just slash and stab wildly.

d: something else....specify.

MK11
May 20, 2002, 01:34 PM
Stick it in the eye. Barring that, anything and everything to get yourself out of there.

therookie
May 20, 2002, 01:51 PM
I'd say....

Distract him with the knife by flicking it near his face...

Kick him HARD in the knee....

Then use Nike-Fu and get outta Dodge......

Skorzeny
May 20, 2002, 02:11 PM
therookie:

Great suggestion. For most people, distract, evade and escape should be the end.

Whether one wish to display the knife in the endeavor is a situational call.

Skorzeny

jimsbowies
May 20, 2002, 02:21 PM
Your butt and the bottom of your tennis shoes....it ain't no shame to run.....:D

Small knife, inexperienced "fighter"...sounds to me like the makings for the BG to take your little blade away and do naughty things to the naughty boy!:D :D

Run!

gryphon
May 20, 2002, 04:41 PM
1) SPEED
2) Don't get tied up, don't let them grab you if at all possible.

Lavan
May 20, 2002, 05:29 PM
Assuming there is no chance to do the obvious best thing and get the hell outta there, what to do.

Like if he followed you into a bathroom or such. Or against a wall or fence.

I was just wondering about the wisdom of pretending (actually it would be real) to plead or grovel or whimper (while getting to lockblade) and then USE it in some way on him.

Oh God don't hurt me......STAB!
Or STAB STAB STAB STAB
Or CUT CUT CUT CUT

Just wondering what the situation would turn to once you started inflicting amateur pain. I have CCW and usually have a .357 on me but sometimes do not carry. (rarely) But the knife is ALWAYS there.

I would think (perhaps wrongly) that trying for an eye would take skill and look like a punch which he may be ready for, but to close up, grab and plead and then either stab multiple times or cut multiple times. Seems to my old bones that stabbing a bunch of times should make someone leave you alone.

fix
May 20, 2002, 05:35 PM
It really will not matter that much where you cut him. Have you ever seen what someone looks like after a knife fight? :eek: Get the blade out as discreetly as possible and attack. Force him to react. The aggressor has the advantage. Cut, don't stab. It's a small blade, so a stab wound is really just a very small cut. The object of the game is to slice him quickly and avoid his blood (AIDS) if at all possible. After he takes a few cuts, he'll be ready to either back down, or show you his cards. (gun,knife,baton,etc) When he is stunned, make your escape.

jar
May 20, 2002, 09:18 PM
On another forum the subject of whether a knife is better edge in or edge out when held in a reverse grip. A reverse grip is the classic stabbing grip with the point below your hand. Since this was on a primarily gun board, the response was mostly, "Why would I care? I'm going to use my gun anyway!"

I believe that Handgun Owners, more than almost any other group, need to become familiar with knives, knife fighting and the limitations and special advantages of each type. Sounds Crazy, doesn't it.

There's a pretty good reason behind this crazy idea and that is, our mind set is GUN oriented and there are times when relying on a gun can get you killed.

Because a gun is our tool of choice we are like the carpenter with only a hammer. We hammer screws. We see, think and practice self-defense with our gun. We think about self-defense and how we would use our gun. We carry our gun so that we will be prepared to defend others and ourselves.

And then, walking down the street, this guy yells and rushes at us with a knife, or a bat, or a pipe or just his fists and size. And he's on us before we can even get our gun out of the holster.

Don't believe me? Well, there is a drill called the Tueller Drill. Basically it demonstrates that almost anyone can rush you and cover twenty feet or more before you can get your gun drawn. Twenty feet. Further than most rooms are wide. Almost three normal store windows away. Over halfway across most streets.

But because we are gun oriented our first reaction is to draw our gun. If we even tie, odds are we will lose. If the person is willing to jump, dive or lunge, then the safety margin is even shorter and if we give the attacker any response time advantage by starting for the gun and then changing our minds... Well, I think you get the idea.

So how does this tie into edge-in, edge-out, normal or reverse grip? Well these are all things most gun owners don't think about and don't practice. Oh, we do a great job with our gun and can stand up against any gang banger out there with confidence. We can double tap and Mozambique. We can speed load, tactical load, clear jams, use cover, think strategically, and tragically, lose fights.

If you are serious about self defense, then you need to think about that area twenty feet in front, behind and beside you, because that is where the greatest threat that you'll likely see will be. And that is also where the advantages of your gun can rapidly disappear.

LawDog
May 21, 2002, 12:28 AM
No training and only a small knife?

Ick.

If your opponent is unarmed and you are certain of his dire designs on your person, draw the knife, hold it opened and where the opponent can see it. Prepare yourself to attack once he crosses a line and to continue attacking no matter what happens to you -- keep that idea uppermost in your mind and promise yourself that the critter bleeds out tonight.

Most critters will look for easier prey elsewhere.

If your critter is dumber than most, wait for him to move past that line and then move through the critter, whilst putting the knife in and out of your opponent as rapidly as possible. Keep your non-knife hand in front of your body, but behind the knife, palm open and positioned just below your line-of-sight, with the elbow tucked in close to your body. When the blade connects, slash, and then stick the blade back into the other guy. Whatever you do, keep moving forward as you stab. When your opponent gets out of your way, run like hell.

LawDog

Skorzeny
May 21, 2002, 01:14 AM
In my not-so humble and uninformed opinion, a small knife or a dagger can be of some use in self-defense (I carry one). However, I am also of the opinion that daggers are primarily useful for discrete, "covert" attacks - in essense to assassinate another.

In "average joe" self-defense, I think that a longer instrument, even without a blade, such as a cane or a stick (even a sturdy umbrella) would be much more useful (not to mention legally less sinister).

Also, wouldn't it make it much easier for another bad guy to justify the use of his gun if you display a knife instead of an umbrella or a cane?

Skorzeny

ATeaM
May 21, 2002, 01:33 AM
I have no knowledge of knife fighting, but I do usually have a small knife on me.

Assuming I remembered I had it (I've had confrontations in the past where I forgot) I wouldn't want my attacker to know I had it, that might agravate the situation further and cause them to use a weapon as well or call for back up. I also wouldn't want to wrap up, keep three feet of distance and jab and slash as you circle your opponent and find an opening to run. Spit in their face, confuse them, but don't close distance.

jimsbowies
May 22, 2002, 09:29 AM
I guess if indeed you are literally "cornered"...then using the knife in a very aggressive, moving toward the target with rapidity would make sense.....:D

scotjute
May 22, 2002, 03:15 PM
With a 4-5" blade you could do some serious damage to your attacker. With a 2" blade you will cut him, but in the meantime you will suffer far worse depending on the size of his knife or his size/strength. (note you never mentioned what he was armed with).
Assuming he has 8" butcher knife and you have 2 1/2" pocket knife, I would assume that I am probably going to die unless I can do something fast and hard. Look for other weapons, (hair spray to face, bottles of perfume to throw at his face, back of toilet bowl to use as shield or club, wrap towel around arm/hand to aid in warding off blows, waste basket, etc). I would throw stuff at his face and charge using waste basket/etc to attempt to deflect his blade. You have to get out of a losing situation. To stay and be stabbed repeatedly is to die. To flee and receive two stabs is much better. I basically would not stay around to use the knife because it would be a losing proposition.
Now, if by small knife you mean a 12" dagger and he has an 8" butcher knife, the tables are turned. I would attempt to get weapon or protection for other hand and fight him in place.
It really depends upon the scenario, how big he is, how many more are with him, what weapons he has, etc.

M1911
May 23, 2002, 03:44 PM
scotjute:

Don't underestimate a small blade. Yes, I'd certainly prefer a larger one, all things being equal. But I've seen autopsy photos of a woman killed with a knife. It was a 2 1/2 folding pocket knife. Her throat was cut from ear to ear and her neck nearly severed.

You CAN get killed by a 2 1/2 blade.

M1911

Standing Wolf
May 23, 2002, 07:13 PM
I'd much rather have a firearm and a knife than just a knife; since I live in the People's Republic of California, however, where only the criminals have Second Amendment civil rights, I carry a knife.

According to a black belt karate friend, the smart money is on stabbing for the face, since a.) faces bleed profusely, and b.) it's harder for the central nervous system to ignore a facial injury than others.

The still smarter money, in my opinion, is to leave the People's Republic of California, which I'm planning to do this year.

Carry24x7
May 24, 2002, 07:40 AM
A little bit of reality check. Most BGs have no formal training in any kind of fighting. They just have a lot of experience being thugs and bullies. Don't discount that experience but don't ascribe rogue-Ninja skills to them either.

Most BGs instinctively prey on the apparently weaker among us. That doesn't mean you are weak it just means they think you are.

Never, never wave a knife around. Keep the knife in close down by your waist, keep your other hand less than a foot from in front of your body. If you LOOK like you know what you're doing you're halfway to victory against an ordinary thug BG.

If you could have escaped and didn't you're stoopid. If you can escape and don't you're stoopid. Make the BG come in close, most won't, and when they do come in close you go for the face area with your knife. Then you escape.

How to you go for the face area with your knife? Like a rattlesnake. Lightning fast, flick it up there, anywhere, flick it quick and immediately bring the knife back to your cocked and locked position at your waist. Don't try to cut, slice, slash or anything like you've certainly seen on TV. Just pop it up there striking-snake fast and bring it back equally fast.

People with no formal training in fighting, like thug BGs, think you should always keep eye contact as if doing so will tip one off to a movement. A thug BG will be immediately bothered by his inability to keep eye contact on you AND keep an eye on your knife if you keep that knife in close down at your waist. Doing so, and no waving it around, also makes it IMPOSSIBLE to disarm you without getting very dangerously close to you.

Lofland
May 24, 2002, 08:06 AM
If self-defense is important to you, why not invest in a one-day course on knife defense? Or, buy a video called "Controlling the Blade" from a well-known police defensive tactics instructor like Tony Blauer, at www.tonyblauer.com. Buy a soft rubber training knife and some goggles, and go through that video with a partner. By learning his techniques to defend against the knife (not easy), you also learn some dos and don'ts for using the knife.

shy_man
May 25, 2002, 06:03 AM
In a blade/sword philosophy, you don't need to think where to cut or stab a body. Just hit/stab to any part of the body to distract him or let him out of control. Wounding someone and have blood flowing will be distracted making one to withdraw from the fight or make him more agressive.

Gomez
May 26, 2002, 04:47 PM
A couple of points:

First, the knife is lethal force. So being cornered and afraid doesn't, by itself, justify doing anything with the knife.

Assuming lethal force is justified, he gets to feel the knife before he sees it. As Andy Stanford says on his Defensive Knife Essentials tape, "The purpose of the knife is not to say, 'get back or I'll cut you' but rather to say 'get back, or I'll cut you, again!'"

What gets cut? Whatever targets are closest. If BG-Prime grabs you by the throat, then the knife moves to one side of the forearm as your other hand moves to the other [kind of a shearing motion]. If BG-Prime closes in so fast that his body is actually inside of your arms, the cuts/stabs come in form the back side. Take what's available until something else become available.

Second, Get Training. In this day and age, it has to be a priority. [Again, see above...Take what's available until something else becomes availalbe.]