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curious
August 11, 2000, 03:56 PM
I have heard that pistol grips are not good because they make it easy to be taken from the person who is carrying it. I use full rear stock with pistol grip. Is this included in this group of poor retention? If so can someone explain the mechanics of how this is easier to take away then a regular rear stock. I just don't see it myself. I do understand why people do not recommend pistol grips by themselves(hard to aim, rough recoil, slow follow up shot).

thanks
curious

hickman
August 11, 2000, 05:48 PM
I think that most shotgunners would say that it is easier to hold onto a shotgun with a pistol grip and standard stock in a weapon retention situation, although it would depend on the specific situation. I have found that the pistol grip tends to make it a bit more difficult to unsling and mount the weapon quickly. I have also found that it helps to hold the weapon when reloading.

Badger Arms
August 11, 2000, 06:35 PM
I don't buy into the weapon's retention argument. I don't think that anybody of average ability and training should worry about weapon's retnetion. As I've said before, few burgulars are burly experts at homeowner disarmament. The pistol grip is an effective tool in VERY tight quarters to keep the muzzle pointed at the threat. In true retentioni terms, the butt of a standard stock may be used as a lever to disarm a homeowner.

That having been said, while few are trained well enough in weapon's retention, still fewer are trained in proper use of pistol-gripped shotguns. Besidse, if you want to engage people anywhere but the confines of a closet, you might want the stock. A case in point is the submachine gun. Notice how the BATF always shoulders their weapons? Heck, it's a full auto. The reason that they don't fire it from the hip is simply that this is not the most effective way to utilize a weapon of any sort. Put it on your shoulder and shoot it.

As to pistol-gripped stocks, I think they are fine for the majority of situations. They are easier to control in some situations and many feel more comfortable shooting them as the middle finger isn't scrunched against the trigger guard when firing from the hip.

Dave McC
August 11, 2000, 07:26 PM
I will give you $5 for every actual case of a sober, alert citizen having his/her shotgun taken away while holding it in the last 5 years in the US. W or w/o pistol grips...

I consider this scenario to be not much more likely than finding out I'm the long lost heir to the Ruritanian throne...

Badger Arms
August 11, 2000, 11:38 PM
Might be off the subject but I think Randy Weaver and David Koresh might take you up on that one.

But I SERIOUSLY doubt you'll find a single incident. The media would have you believe that women with guns are more likely to have the gun taken away and used against them. Bullcrap. The last thing ANYBODY is thinking when a gun is pointing at them is, "hmm, I bet I can take that 12ga away from that homeowner." I think you 5-spot is safe.

Art Eatman
August 14, 2000, 09:34 PM
I guess a lot depends on what scenario you envision. My own background has my search mode with a long gun at a nearly port-arms position. From that position, I can butt-stroke or swing down to stab with the muzzle, club with the barrel--or shoot.

For me, then, the pistol grip is awkward. The wrist is bent at an awkward angle for control, in my scenario.

FWIW, Art

Dave McC
August 15, 2000, 06:37 AM
Thanks, Art. We tend to agree...

Ledbetter
August 15, 2000, 05:58 PM
Here's another pistol grip question:

Does anyone endorse the use of a stockless, pistol gripped shotgun for defensive use? I only ask because I tried one and it sure seemed easy to blow things up with, as long as they were close by.

Regards,

Ledbetter

jthuang
August 15, 2000, 06:16 PM
Led, you mean like this?

http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

:)

Seriously, I think unless you really need the extra manuverability, a PG-only shotgun has only one place, and that's as a dedicated breaching weapon.

Justin

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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

Ledbetter
August 15, 2000, 08:25 PM
Meaning, if I wanted to break into Coinneach's house for example? ;) Or do you mean knocking down walls?

Regards,

Ledbetter

Dave McC
August 16, 2000, 04:39 AM
Led, I know/have known some serious WIHTF types.Few if any have PG only shotguns. As I stated in another response, I HAD to shoot plenty of rounds from the hip with a folder or PG shotgun for a few years,and qualify to 90% to keep my instructor status. If it hits the fan,I will use my shotguns from the shoulder and using the sights at anything farther than contact distance.

jthuang
August 16, 2000, 07:45 AM
Yep, that's it. A breaching gun is a shotgun, usually in PG-only configuration, with a special muzzle attachment that looks like a muzzle brake with teeth. This muzzle attachment helps the shotgun lock onto the doorknob/lock core. The ammo usually incorporates some sort of disintegrating projectile (powdered lead comes to mind).

These specialized guns are usually reserved for entry team use, as they just have one specific purpose. Probably be fun to build one for kicks if you had the spare jing.

Justin

------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

Badger Arms
August 17, 2000, 10:21 PM
PG shotguns have a place in very close quarters and in situations such as backpacking in Bear Country. It's certainly better than a revolver, IMHO.

Art Eatman
August 18, 2000, 06:33 AM
badgerarms: Glad you mentioned that. A few decades back, I saw a pair of side-hammer shotguns. About 10" barrels; wood stocks cut down to pistol grips. A now-deceased LEO had them; he referred to them as his "crowd control".

If I had to argue with a big bear, I reckon there would be enough adrenalin to help control recoil. :)

Art

Ledbetter
August 18, 2000, 01:32 PM
Thanks. Now I don't feel so bad about the twenty dollars I spent on the stockless PG.

Regards,

Ledbetter

Badger Arms
August 18, 2000, 11:11 PM
Art. Just got back from the shooting hole. I reaffirmed my opinion on PG shotguns. I had my Ithaca and my buddy had his Remington both with full stocks. Another guy happened along with a PG Mossberg. It was fun to see him try to hit ANYTHING with that. I do believe that the only place for a pistol grip is when the user can make the logical compromise between packing ability and usefullness. When firing a conventional shotgun, the stock ends at the elbow anyhow. You really don't save that much space at all except with awkward shooting positions.

deanf
August 19, 2000, 06:38 AM
Why, exactly, did they put a front sight on that Mossberg shorty?

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"Anyone feel like saluting the flag which the strutting ATF and FBI gleefully raised over the smoldering crematorium of Waco, back in April of ‘93?" -Vin Suprynowicz

Patrick Graham
August 19, 2000, 08:49 AM
Did someone say "Pistol grips on a Shotgun?"

:) :) :)

Wow.. I can't believe that I'm "almost" going to get the last word on this subject.

In a small house, a trailer house, a stair well or tight hallway, pistol grips only on an 18" shotgun would be ideal. You can't shoot magnums but at 10 feet it doesn't matter. You've shaved a foot off the length of the item you would have to rapidly spin around with.

Of course, in-house (small house) defense is the only application where pistol grips would be best. All others would require a full stock.

Dave McC
August 19, 2000, 12:09 PM
Art, Charley Maloney, now with Fulton Armory, made a bear gun decades ago from a 10 ga Greener cut to 18" and loaded with .375 BP pistol balls. Effect was awesome.

My idea of a bear gun would be my HD 870, with the first two up being Brennekes, backed by 00.

Dave McC
August 19, 2000, 12:10 PM
Art, Charley Maloney, now with Fulton Armory, made a bear gun decades ago from a 10 ga Greener cut to 18" and loaded with .375 BP pistol balls. Effect was awesome.

My idea of a bear gun would be my HD 870, with the first two up being Brennekes, backed by 00.

Badger Arms
August 19, 2000, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patrick Graham:
Wow.. I can't believe that I'm "almost" going to get the last word on this subject.

In a small house, a trailer house, a stair well or tight hallway, pistol grips only on an 18" shotgun would be ideal. You can't shoot magnums but at 10 feet it doesn't matter. You've shaved a foot off the length of the item you would have to rapidly spin around with.
[/quote]

I'm sure you didn't think you weren't going to get a reply on this one. I went all around my house with my full-stock and PG Ithaca's. (yes, I waited until the wife and kids were gone) and couldn't find ONE instance where the PG would give me any advantage. In fact, it's a bit of a disadvantage around corners in that you cannot naturally point it very well. The full-stock allows a reference for pointing that the mop-handle of the pistol grip lacks.

Patrick, have you ever tried to hit anything shooting around corners with a PG shotgun? In order to see the target with the gun pointing at the same time, you must lean forward into the gun anyhow. Look where your elbow is. To get any kind of control over the gun at all, your elbow must project somewhat behind the gun... exactly where that 12" you think you saved would have to be anyhow!!!

I'm an advocate for PG's when you have to fight in tunnels, bunkers, campers, other vehicles, or where you make a compromise for space as on a Motorcycle, backpack, or light airplane. Still, in those situations the folding stock would seem ideal as it doubles the effectiveness of the defensive shotgun. I would also like to stand up against the pistol-gripped full-stock. These are a bit of a compromise to me. I've always been lightning fast with a standard stock. Take a good look at pheasant and dove hunters. What do they shoot? Now they are quick, aren't they?

I guess I'll bottom line it for anybody who wonders what I think. The PG in any form on a shotgun is a COMPROMISE applicable to some narrow situations and should not be used on a gun that will serve any homeowner living in space larger than the Unabomber's shack. If you have specific requirements, sure, compromse. If you don't, don't limit yourself for sake of a false sense of necessity.

curious
August 19, 2000, 04:02 PM
This generated more debate then I expected. After all the posts my opinion is to do what you feel comfortable with. Someone who wants to use any kind of pistols grips will find a good reason to and anyone who thinks they are a waste will site some good examples. I have a full stock with pistol grips. I like them and feel comfortable shooting with them. I have probably ran 700 - 900 rounds thru my gun and like the control I have with pistol grips. I have simulated checking out my house with this gun and a conventional stock shotgun and see no real difference. Thanks for all the opinions and ideas.

curious

Dave McC
August 19, 2000, 07:28 PM
Curious, hie yourself down to a range with both styles of stock. Run any tactical drill you want to, try an El Presidente, or any variant thereof.

if you don't do SIGNIFICANTLY better with the full stock, the first pitcher's on me...

Young Kiwi
August 20, 2000, 10:37 PM
I'd Have to agree with curious....

I have both a Conventional full stock and a Pistol Grip full stock, I don't tend find much difference in speed between the two. I tend to use the PG full stock more, I find it more comfortable to shoot with and on my 870 the safety is better presented, and easier to use. The Conventional stock can be faster to reload because it easier to flip the gun over in your hand to present the loading port upwards. The PG full stock only comfortably goes 90 degrees (but can always be fired unlike fliping the whole gun over)

I shoot military service rifles a lot so am very much more comfortable with pistol grip stocks than conventional stocks.


(I did have a PG only stock once many years ago, but they are of limited use, so limited that I couldn't find a use for it....After a few laughs on the range I took it off and never used again)

Big Bunny
August 20, 2000, 10:58 PM
With a full stock AND a rear pistol grip for the trigger hand, my heavy 1,500FPS 1.25OZ home-cast "goblet" slug-loads are far more comfortable from my 18" barrel pumper, as I feel the grip takes some of the recoil, also the shoulder contact can be enhanced with a bit of extra straight-line grip - stopping any tendency flip-up under recoil with light clothing underneath. I find quick pump/loading are easier in cold or very hot conditions, as it aids grip here too.

I agree fully over hip-shooting and to use a rear PG only is painful AND inaccurate - for me anyway, though I have never tried twin PGs.....Hmmm... :)

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If we shooting sportspersons don't hang together... we will all hang separately !
Never knock another's different shooting interest or discipline...REMEMBER we are all but leaves on the same tree of freedom.

Young Kiwi
August 21, 2000, 05:38 PM
Twin PG's are much more comfortable than a single PG. (it's more like wearing two right shoes rather than your shoes on the wrong feet, more comfortable but you are not going to be running any marathons :) )

With PG only stocks, in order to hit something you really do need to have the end of the barrel resting against it. :D