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The Plainsman
March 26, 2002, 03:22 PM
Several weeks ago, I posted a thread on the "General Discussion" forum, entitled "I shot a man". The "shooting" occurred during a firearms simulation training session at my local Sheriff's Office. Even though I was using wax bullets and I knew that nobody would be hurt, it still took some soul-searching on my part to pull the trigger on the BG.

Afterward, one of the instructors was doing a de-briefing for us students and we started a discussion of whether any of us could actually pull the trigger in a real-life situation. About half of us had succeeded in dropping the BG and the other half got shot by the BG.

The instructor recommended a book, "On Killing" by Dr. Dave Grossman, PhD., who is also a retired LtCol. Army Ranger. I have since read the book and highly recommend it to any of my brother and sister TFL'ers who have ever wondered about the thought processes of killing someone, regardless of the justification or circumstances. It's scary. Unless you've actually had the experience, you can only speculate about your personal reaction, but this book will help you figure it out.

Good read.

C.R.Sam
March 26, 2002, 03:25 PM
Yep

Spectre
March 26, 2002, 03:48 PM
I can't say that I understand having any doubts whatsoever about the ability to defend oneself, family, or country. I construe this as doing one's duty. I was baffled to find a few in my Infantry training who wondered aloud if they could "actually shoot someone". I rather wanted to break out the clue bat. They V O L U N T E E R E D to join the infantry. The infantry's mission is to break things and kill people. If they couldn't do the job, they shouldn't have joined. Likewise, if any doubt is present as to one's willingness to pull the trigger when lethal force is called for in the civilian arena, that person has no business carrying any dedicated lethal defensive tool.

Rickmeister
March 26, 2002, 04:39 PM
You can't afford yourself the luxury of soul-searching when the chips are down. It is a life-or-death situation. You should have made the decision to shoot in self defense before the need arises.

Read this if you've got the time: http://www.tsra.com/LEOdir5.htm

boris_01
March 26, 2002, 05:36 PM
First off I've never shot anyone. Could I? I would hope so. But don't know definitely. I've had this disscussion several times and always some gungho blow hard says "If you point a gun at somebody, you better be ready to use it." And they continue to brag about how they would not hessitate if the situation arose. Truth is, you do not know how you will respond until you do respond. You do not definitely know that you will shoot someone until you pull the trigger. Even if you have pulled it before on someone. Each time is different. Perhaps the time you did before scarred you psychologically and would hamper your reaction.
Spectre, being in the infantry could definitly help with you reaction. Being pumped and trained. Mentally, physically and skillfully. Not to mention that being in the infantry in a situation where you most likely will be expecting a fight will prep you and affect you mentally the favor of you pulling the trigger. Unlike in a street defense situation where it probably will surprise you. And in a street defense situation you have to also deal with the legality of everything passing through your mind. ( Does this constitute the use of deadly force? And will the law see it that way?) And even not being sure if I could actually shoot someone. Yes the second ammendment says that I CAN own and carry a lethal defensive tool. ( Gun) And my Concealed Carry permit says so too.

Spectre
March 26, 2002, 05:44 PM
Though said of something else, also applicable here:

Let every man (Old English, substitute person, human, etc) be convinced in his own mind.

I don't want to sound like a blowhard or a Jedi knight, but your attitude will make all the difference in a life and death struggle. Be certain you can do what you need to do, or any weapon you carry is a major hindrance instead of help to you, and innocents around you. If you have any doubts about whether you can pull that trigger (not which situation warrants it; that is open to interpretation), do not carry a firearm, for other's sake, if not your own.

Incidentally, in a CCW situation, I will not point a firearm at anyone I am not in the process of shooting. If I do not feel shooting is called for, I will not have "presented". Producing a firearm without a firm intention to use it is merely asking for an escalation.

gryphon
March 26, 2002, 06:04 PM
If I have to draw a weapon on someone, then they have already crossed the line between my life or theirs, and though I have no fear of dying, I'd rather it be the bad guy than me that takes the big dirt nap.

So, in answer to your question, YES.

Jeff White
March 26, 2002, 06:55 PM
Besides On Killing I'd recommend LTC Grossman's presentation The Bulletproof Mind. It's geared for peace officers, but it's applicable to anyone who would put themselves in a self defense or defense of others situation. It was the best 8 hours I've spent in a long time.

If you can't get to the presentation, a two hour condensed version is available on audio tape.

Jeff

leadbutt
March 26, 2002, 07:20 PM
Unfortunately, I would answer in the afirmitive,haveing done so inthe military, and in three encounters in the law enforcement job.If one has not conviniced him or her self they can, then they have no buissness carrying a firearm.when the chips are down as another poster said its to late to decide,But make no mistake and let no one tell you different,if you can not it does not make you a coward or worse.It is some thing I whish I never had to have done, and for you how have not I truly whish you never have to

boris_01
March 26, 2002, 09:59 PM
Here is my point for all of those who say that you must know or must be confindent or must believe that you can pull the trigger or else you don't need to be carrying a firearm. You cannot know 100% that you can pull the trigger until you 100% HAVE pulled the trigger. Sure I feel that I COULD, WOULD and WILL. But I don't 100% know that until I PULL the trigger. I'm not Miss Cleo. I cannot predict the future. Only when I pull the trigger and hear BOOM! Will I know for 100% sure that I could. Does not mean I doubt myself. I'm as confident as the next guy. I'm just honest.

JFucile
March 26, 2002, 10:35 PM
Yes

Had that question answered during my time in the corps. If it comes to me actually pointing a weapon at someone to protect someone (myself included) I will be firing at them.

BamBam-31
March 27, 2002, 03:44 AM
I used to wonder if I could. Sort of a "Everyone's got a Mama, everyone's got a friend" mentality. Most people have this kind of respect for life. It's normal, it's healthy, it's a good thing.

However, there are people out there that do not value human life as we do. For whatever reason, they can pull the trigger without hesitation. They are predators, and to them, we are sheep living under the hazy illusion that everyone lives by the golden rule. They use our very respect for life against us.

Well I've got a Mama, too. And if ever one of these losers decides to prey on me or mine, I will pull the trigger. I bring my Mama flowers, not the other way around.

When with sheep, be sheep. When in the presence of wolves, be a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's the only way.

Daniel
March 27, 2002, 08:02 AM
Yes.

If I am attacked without provocation. The attacker has forfeited his life; by trying to take mine.

Whether, dropping the hammer/striker. Releasing the bowstring. Thrusting/slashing the knife. My mind is prepared, and I am prepared.

shy_man
March 27, 2002, 08:04 AM
Every one is decided to pull the trigger if there is no more way out to save his soul. Intention to kill or squezing the trigger against someone is a crime per se no matter what is the reason behind. Everyone should know that more rational CCW holder would never think to shoot or kill someone. That would be just be a chain reaction in a particular events.

ATeaM
March 27, 2002, 08:22 AM
"If I am attacked without provocation. The attacker has forfeited his life; by trying to take mine."

Attacked without provocation doesn't mean you have the right to kill your attacker. At least in a court of law.


Yes, I would shoot someone if it was my only option where there is no compromise. If you speculate you would hesitate in a life or death situation then you shouldn't own a gun.

Rickmeister
March 27, 2002, 09:22 AM
Adrenaline. The very word conjures up images of razor-sharp timing, lightning speed, and superhuman ability.

Support your local suprarenal chapter.

mike waidelich
March 27, 2002, 09:22 AM
Seems like this is a pretty popular question and much on everyone's mind. My attitude is simple. I hate violence. I hate it so much I am willing to kill anyone who trys to use it against me.

If you want some good information on preparing yourself for the moment when you may have to use lethal force, I would recommend that you read Jeff Cooper's "Principles of Personal Defense". You can order a copy from Barnes and Noble.

The Plainsman
March 27, 2002, 11:05 AM
Adrenaline may actually mean some other things that aren't conducive to all-round good decision-making or performance - stuff like tunnel vision, diminished fine motor skills, diminished hearing or vice versa. That's when the training part kicks in. All of the "old-hand" shooters with whom I've talked or read, say that your training (and all the things you did in advance to prepare) is what makes it all happen when the SHTF.

I appreciate all the comments here from all sources. I reckon what it tells us, is that we need to constantly be preparing in one form or another, for that fateful day when we are called upon to "poop or get off the pot", so to speak - kind of puttin' our money where our mouth is.

Aim small; miss small ;)

LASur5r
March 27, 2002, 03:29 PM
Training is the key...but the experience of taking a life doesn't guarantee that you can do it again. If you don't have the resolve, then sometimes, training may not be enough if you're conflicted. Seen it happen before.

Sierra1
March 28, 2002, 10:10 PM
During departmental training utilizing Simunition rounds (wax bullets) my partner and I were "sent" on a call to a D.V. in progress. Upon arrival at the scene we had a wife who had beaten up on her husband. CA state law says the primary or most significant agressor will be arrested for D.V. so as I am hooking up the wife for imaginary ride to jail and my partner is supposed to be covering me the husband gets upset that we are taking his wife to jail and refuses to let us take her. In the blink of an eye he pulled a gun and shot me in the shoulder and arm. My partner returned fire dropping the husband. In debrief I was ruled dead and my partner received the third degree for not controlling the husband while I was hooking up the wife. But you know, while I was lying on the floor of the scenario room after I had been "killed" by the wax bullets I so incredulous that I had been shot that I simply couldn't accept it as having happened. It sucked. Granted it was all training. And both I and my partner learned a lot from it. But I never, never want to be the guy on the ground again, ruled dead by a scenario referee of the Medical Examiner for that matter. So if it comes down to it, I am pulling the trigger, and I am going home that night, simple as that!

Correia
March 29, 2002, 03:09 PM
Yes.

You make the decision long before presented with the problem. This works for most moral issues. Black and white issues that is.

When I was growing up my folks taught me to never use drugs. I decided not to use drugs. When offered drugs I turned them down. I didn't have to think about it because the decision had already been made.

I have made a committment to be faithfull to my wife. So if ever tempted, I don't have to stop and think about it. The decision has already been made.

This doesn't tend to work for the small things in life, like "should I have another cookie?" But for those major things that we should all expect to face, make your decision now.

Pulling the trigger is one of those decisions. If you are not sure that you can do it. Don't carry. I don't buy into the argument that you never know 100% until you do it. For some things you decide, commit, and that is it.

stevetuna
March 29, 2002, 04:10 PM
I hope I never need to know. All I can say is that I've defended myself and others aggressively when required to, but never yet in a life-threatening situation.

This is one of the best and most thoughtful threads I've ever read. Thanks to all.

Texas2NC
March 29, 2002, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Boris
First off I've never shot anyone. Could I?

Even if you have pulled it before on someone. Each time is different.

:rolleyes: So, never having pulled the trigger, you are still able to pontificate for a whole paragraph on the effects of doing so, not once, but multiple times.

And even not being sure if I could actually shoot someone.

If you are not prepared to use that weapon in time of need, you are just another victim with a gun.

This is not an issue with shades of gray. It is cut & dry, Black & white. If you carry a gun, be prepared to use it. If you can't get it straight in your mind, don't carry.

leadbutt
March 29, 2002, 07:49 PM
Gentlemen we all seem to agree,but boris it still comes down to either knowning you can or cann't, Like most combat Vets will tell you,the first time was a reaponce to auto pilot training,mostly you don't see them face to face.I was that scared Newbie in 68 until the first patrol across the wire, when I went into law enforcement I knew it was a face to face ,reality, you can not second quess your self and that sound like what your doing,you have to have the mind set,or gut check that carrys you from day to day knowning if all else fails I'm going home the way i left it.
That is another reason to practice like you mean it.
Sierra1, you just recieved the best training you well ever have,you were mad couldn't believe it,in real time you would have fought back,take this with you for you know now you can.
please excuse the rambling on and the spelling.I have been an LEO for 29 years now,not counting two tours in Nam ,have seen a lot of fine people die because they hesitated

boris_01
March 29, 2002, 09:17 PM
Sorry lead. But I'm not second guessing myself. I being totally honest. I'm pretty much as confident as everyone else who has posted. I'm 99.99% sure that I would/could pull the trigger. But until the trigger is pulled and the gun goes pop, there is that .01% that it might not happen. I'm sure that no one on this board is psychic or has been blessed with the gift of prophesy. Too many things could be the variable in the equation. You can prepare yourself as much as you can. But listen to what I'm saying here.......Nothing is ever definite, 100% for sure. With the exception of the word of God. I'm 99.99% sure that my truck will make it down to the corner store, but until it pulls into the parking lot there is that .01% that it will not make it. I'm a eternal skeptic about a lot of the posts here. I hang out at gunstores and a local range. And I know that there is a lot more BS that goes around than actual experience. And from my experience as a dog trainer, the dogs that bark louder and the most are the dogs who are least likely to actually bite. In a military combat situation it is different than a street defense situation. In a military combat situation you know and are alert and expect to defend yourself. There is someone out there who intends to kill you. In a street defense situation you are most likely going to be caught off guard. You will have your mind on something else and in a split second you will have to assess the situation and what action to take. Does this situation warrant or constitute the use of deadly force? Is it safe to others and or is anybody in the line of fire? Will the law see it my way? And if you are a Christian, will God see it my way? Is there another way out of the situation? I'm not second guessing myself. I'm just wondering will these things impede my actions. Will they go through my mind? HONESTLY I don't know. I've never been in the situation. You can condition yourself as much as possible for the fact that it could happen, but to totally believe that you WILL WITHOUT A DOUBT,100% pull the trigger in ANY situation, is to give yourself a false sense of security. Sure I agree. Train and condition yourself for the chance of the situation. 99.99% is really good odds that you will pull the trigger.

BamBam-31
March 30, 2002, 07:23 AM
Boris_01, with all due respect, I must agree with the previous poster that said if you hesitate you're just another victim with a gun.

There is undeniable truth to your questions about legality, safety, morality, religion, etc. Many of these questions cannot be answered until the circumstance actually presents itself. Some, however, can be answered beforehand. Actually, they need to be answered beforehand. Most importantly, The Plainsman's original "Can you pull the trigger?" question.

It's a question about conviction, not clairvoyance or epistemology. To know that you can pull the trigger means that you have the conviction that you will, if necessary, take a life to save a life. That you can know. You just have to ask yourself.

Get that one out of the way, because it's a big one. Like you said, a million things might be going through your mind in a self-defense situation. One less means less hesitation.

To the previous posters who have pulled the trigger, thanks for sharing your insight.

boris_01
March 30, 2002, 02:07 PM
Kung, how can you be 100% sure about your conviction unless it has been tested? You can't. We are human. Not machines.

Spectre
March 30, 2002, 03:06 PM
(If this is within your moral code) Are you certain you'll be faithful to your wife? Are you certain you'll never let your kids go hungry if there's any conceivable way to avoid it? I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that I will put my body between my siblings and any threat, if that is my only option. Making the decision to pull the trigger if circumstances warrant is something only you can decide, and the rest of us talking about how you need to be converted will never take the place of you taking the necessary action. Just make up your mind, lay down or take up your arms, train well, live peaceably, and get on with your life.

BamBam-31
March 31, 2002, 02:06 AM
Boris_01, if I were to wake up one night and discover that some burglar had broken into my home and was in the process of harming a family member, I will shoot him dead. Of this, I am 100% certain, not 99.99% certain, not "pretty much" certain, ONE HUNDRED PERCENT certain, just like the burglar would be 100% dead.

This I know without it ever being tested. This I know because I am a human being and not a machine. I will defend me and mine. I have already made the decision.

No offense, but maybe it's your own uncertainty about your own convictions that leads you to think others should think the same. I, for one, do not, and from the sounds of it, nor do many of the other posters. They, too, have already decided that they will pull the trigger.

Again, it's a choice only you can make, and there's no right or wrong choice. Only thing is, if you find that you're not 100% certain (this ain't horseshoes), then don't arm yourself. You'll only end up arming the bad guys.

I think you gotta do a gut check, bro. Not for us. We're just a bunch of faceless names on your computer. You gotta do it for you and yours. I hope it all works out for the best. ;)

goodcatjack
March 31, 2002, 04:20 AM
I carry a pistol every day of my life. So does my brother. We work in a family business and we live as constantly in condition yellow as possible, which means we think daily in terms of protecting our parents, as well as ourselves. I know I'm not speaking for my brother, but for my part, it makes me sad, sometimes. I remember what it used to be like not to know what I now know about the world and the people in it. But that's just the way things are, when you get past childhood. It's something some people have never learned (anti-s, for example.)

Thank god Erick pointed out the difference between black and white issues and those in the grey areas in between; I think most of life happens between those two extremes. I think life is made up of lots of small decisions made over time, over and over. But I believe I've made it pretty simple for myself, i.e. if I see a weapon, I drop the threat etc etc. Better to be judged by twelve and so on in that vein. But while it still makes me sad when I think about it, it's nowhere near regret, or doubt, or hesitation, or lack of resolve. You could call it duty to yourself or your family or anything you like, you could couch it in macho terms, I really don't care, but in the end it's just another d@mn thing life throws at you that you have to do. That's all.

I don't want to kill, but I'm willing to do it if I have to. Pity is not the same as reluctance, in my book.

Was this always such a hard question to answer? Was it like this before this Modern Age of feelings and litigiousness? I don't think so.

boris_01
March 31, 2002, 06:48 AM
Kung. In none of my posts have I directed my comments that someone would not pull the trigger. I'm just trying to get people to realize that the law of probabilities is never 100% when it comes to human behaviour. It is not an attack against anyones manhood. Just people too macho or dense ( one or the other or both) to admit or acknowlege it. It's easy to do behind the safety of the computer screen. You can not see how someone's eyes avoid contact or how they submit through their body language. And be carefull. Do not question my resolve about wether I could pull the trigger. I'm just as sure as anyone else who has not been in the situation, that I would pull the trigger. I do not question myself. Have no reason to question myself. And you would not question my resolve if you were not behind your safe computer screen and I were able to look you eye to eye. So do not direct any agressive comments at me personally. AND DEFINITELY DO NOT IMPLY THAT I SHOULD NOT OWN OR CARRY A GUN. AS LONG AS I LIVE IN THE LAND OF THE FREE AND WE HAVE THE SECOND AMMENDMENT, I WILL OWN AND CARRY A GUN. PERIOD. Now I will try to explain this one more time. I'm not questioning someones confidence or wether they are convinced that they WOULD pull the trigger. I'm trying to point out that the law of probabilities when it comes to human behaviour is never 100%.

BamBam-31
March 31, 2002, 08:12 AM
Hey Boris_01.

Maybe I misread your previous posts. If I have offended in any way, it was without intent, and I do apologize. I am glad for you that you have the conviction necessary for using a gun in a self-defense situation. And I understand your point about human nature not being 100% predictable. Too true.

But I think the direction of this thread is not so much the predictability of human nature as it is about the mindset necessary to pull the trigger, no? Maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. :D

Art Eatman
March 31, 2002, 11:11 PM
Funny how sixty-some years can go by so fast. I grew up on stories of lawmen and outlaws and what I guess you could call "necessary killin'". I've always tried to generally avoid situations where I'd have to drop the hammer on somebody, and so far I've been successful.

But somehow there's just no doubt in my mind as to what I'd do were gratuitous deadly force offered against me, and it seems like it's always been that way. Seems to me that staying alive is just part of living.

Art

Just a thought
April 2, 2002, 01:23 AM
I was asked "how it felt to shoot someone"? I think they expected a macho or heroic answer!!! My answer was that it felt like I was saving my life! No lights flashed!!!! No comets in the sky!! Just me saving my life!!! I don't feel like a hero. I feel like I did what I had to do! I was lucky, my gun misfired and I didn't kill him! I did stop him or I wouldn't be writting this!

Incursion
April 7, 2002, 12:32 AM
I completely agree with Boris. I had an argument with my friend about this in a war scenario after watching Saving Private Ryan.

Courier
April 7, 2002, 09:32 PM
I could and would pull the trigger. It's easy to say that without ever having been in the situation, but I really do feel that I could and would pull the trigger if the situation was life threatening to myself or an innocent bystander. If there is any doubt, you shouldn't carry a gun, you just might end up arming a BG. And I carry a gun, so I could and would pull the trigger.

Erik
April 8, 2002, 08:47 PM
Yes.

Mike11b
April 9, 2002, 11:14 AM
Great book...among others. i consider it a must read.

Mike11b
April 9, 2002, 11:18 AM
as to the question......I answered that one when I got my CCW. I am prepared to defend myself or my family, and if put into a situation where I would have to draw my weapon, I would address and neutralize the threat, and deal wth the ancillary issues when appropriate.

edamon2k
April 10, 2002, 07:39 AM
You better believe it. I'm part of the quake generation :D

-d

Mannlicher
April 14, 2002, 07:26 PM
I have............

fox800
April 14, 2002, 08:33 PM
Mannlicher:

What was the situation, and what was the outcome?

_YoYo_
April 15, 2002, 11:28 PM
Boris,
I don't like posting to threads when there are so many people already responding because it gets redundant. But I thought the following scenario might clear something up...

Scenario:
If you and your family were starving to death and you had one round left in your rifle, a bigass deer steps out at 20 yards, clear shooting lane, no way to miss.. would you shoot it?

It's an easily answered question for me because I have no problem killing an animal(or anything for that matter), even the first time there was never a question... But for you it might be different.. You might say yeah but thats just a deer... Truth is, to most people who have thought it over, there is no difference.. You better believe these people when they say they would pull the trigger 100%. They have already thought through the things that may hold someone back from doing it, and they have decided. Where I come from your life isn't worth as much as your car so it's not hard shooting some scumbag that pulls a gun/knife/whatever potential threat... Fact is man, this isn't as big a deal to some people as it is to you.. its just like any other decision that has to be made.. some you contend with, some you don't... Hell I ate dinner with a buddy about an hour after he killed his first dude, he said he wished he could go back 10-8 cause he was gonna be bored at home. There is a million ways to look at it..

And by the way, I understand what you are saying, I don't buy it.. I dont think probability has anything to do with it.. I can't assure you that the sun will rise tomorrow.. but I can assure you that I will shoot you if I need to.. Just remember that the people down the street might kill you for $20, or a Black & Mild(I hate cigars).. They're not thinking it over like you are..

MarineTech
April 16, 2002, 09:07 AM
Having served with 7th Marines in the Persian Gulf and Somalia, I can say that yes I can pull the trigger.

'nuff said.

ahenry
April 16, 2002, 01:12 PM
Here is my point for all of those who say that you must know or must be confindent or must believe that you can pull the trigger or else you don't need to be carrying a firearm. You cannot know 100% that you can pull the trigger until you 100% HAVE pulled the trigger. Sure I feel that I COULD, WOULD and WILL. But I don't 100% know that until I PULL the trigger. I'm not Miss Cleo. I cannot predict the future. Only when I pull the trigger and hear BOOM! Will I know for 100% sure that I could. Does not mean I doubt myself. I'm as confident as the next guy. I'm just honest.
I disagree. For instance I can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that baring things outside my control (i.e. a stronger force than I) I am going to type the letter “a”. A. I know this because I know that I have decided that I am going to. There is no clairvoyance, divination, or prophetic revelation, just a simple decision. It is simply knowing the “mettle of your mental”.
You make the decision long before presented with the problem. This works for most moral issues. Black and white issues that is. I couldn’t agree more.

chris93473
April 19, 2002, 02:01 AM
to be honest i dunno. to be more honest, i really don't know. right now i can say yes and feel strong about it because deep down most likely it won't happen this instant or for the next hour, day, etc. in other words, i was never in that situation with a human. i was kinda with a dog, then i realized the growl was a sound reflection into my garage (i was in the garage) from my next door neighbor's fence, so no worries one i realized that. but i would think if i was in a life and death sit. i would pull the trigger and empty the mag (12 rounds).

con: dealing with the thought that you killed a human being even tho it was a bad guy.

con: I know the police are gonna give me BS about not giving me back my gun that i rightfully own and paid for and legally used to defend my family (parents) and myself. The Constitution gives me that right and so does the preamble. but cops don't seem to look at it that way, but i can be proven wrong....might.

Byron Quick
April 23, 2002, 06:32 PM
I've been in several situations where under the laws of the state of Georgia I would have justified in firing my weapon in self defense. I've only completed drawing my weapon twice.

In every case the shoot?/no shoot decisions was clicking through my head God only knows how fast? In one situation, my assailant stopped his assault when I got off the line of attack and he realized I was drawing a handgun. He stopped and released his weapon. I stopped drawing mine.

In another, the two strangers fighting in my living room, obeyed my commands, noted the BHP in low ready and left my dwelling. I can remember my thought immediately prior to drawing my weapon:"If I draw it, I might have to use it." I drew it.

In the other situation where I drew my gun, I was walking into a stranger's house to find out where the screams were coming from. Granddaughter's boyfriend was in the process of beating the snot out of grandfather who was sitting in a chair incapable of even attempting to defend himself. I stopped that and held my BHP just to the side of the big tough guys head. I told him that if I felt the need to line up on his head I would immediately pull the trigger. I meant it. In fact, I was really hoping he'd do something stupid. But I acted as I have trained myself to act and refrained from listening to my emotions.

Will I pull the trigger? You bet. If needed. On the other hand, I've still got a chance to get through this life without causing a major injury to anyone. It's a goal of mine...I'm just not a fanatic about it.

leadbutt
April 23, 2002, 07:55 PM
Boris,have gone back and read all the post alot of good honset answers,but to be truefull I think you question is like the old question for religon class a hunderd years ago." Is god all powerfull that he himself could biuld a rock so large he himself could not lift it". you keep talking about not knowning a 100%,I am sorry and don't mean to offend bit that is per B.S.Like others have said much better than I , It has to be yes or no,or there will never be time to answer if I should.You are correct in that the mind set of combat is different,from the street, only in that some times you can shut down on your street or at home.in combat that I experinced you never shut down.I think you are truly looking for a one stop answer,but there is none other than yes or no.if you have not faced it I hope and pray you never do,it is not an easy thing to take a human life.but as i train my troops you strapped it on and that should be the first thought in your mind every time you have a confortation. And not to knock the Christian religon. But GOD gave us the mind to save ourselfs,and IMHO,if and when I reach his AO I will await his desion good or bad.Until them BG'S beaware been there and done that,and will again if called upon

Don Gwinn
April 24, 2002, 03:10 PM
Just to jump through all semantic hoops, I'm as certain as anyone can be without having already accomplished the event. I don't know the sun will rise tomorrow until it does, either, but I can get close enough to certainty for my purposes.
I've been to the point of gun out, low ready, in the middle of the night with my wife crying with fright. It turns out she'd woken up from a nightmare and thought an attacker was in the room, so there was no real threat. But when I thought there was, I wasn't worried about whether to pull the trigger. I was just trying to find the threat she was shrieking about. I was ready (meaning willing) to do whatever I had to do.

John DR
April 24, 2002, 09:35 PM
I've trained and practiced and trained some more.
I hope that if SHTF, I'll fight like I've trained.
Yes I will fight to the end, just hope I never have to.