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Bob S
September 1, 1999, 03:32 PM
For years I have used a shotgun for hunting all forms of animals from rabbits to deer. But until recently, I never really regarded them as a home defense weapon. Instead I have always relied on my Glock 22 for that task. Most of my shotguns have long barrels, not particularly good for home defense. I've looked at a gun which I believe is a Mossberg Intimidator (or something like that)... basically a 18 inch barrel, pistol grip, heat shield over the barrel and extended magazine. How do these guns rate for self defense? I was wanting something short to keep under the bed. Feel free to give me any advice on this particular gun or other shotguns which fit the same need. Thanks in advance for you replys!

Coinneach
September 1, 1999, 04:03 PM
Bob,

A shorty pump-action is about the best defense gun you can have, regardless of make/model.

Pros:
--The sound. Even people who have ZERO knowledge of guns know the sound of a pump-action. The deterrent effect is amazing.
--Power. There's simply no handgun round that even comes close to the kinetic energy in a standard 20-ga or larger shotshell. If the goblin is wearing armor, you can still knock him on his ass.
--Versatility. If you run out of shells and have no time to reload, shotguns make GREAT clubs. :)

Cons:
--Size. Even a shorty is significantly longer than a handgun.
--Retention. For a fearless or stupid goblin, taking a long gun from a terrified person is cake. Handguns are easier to retain.
--Noise. If you have to fire a shotgun with no hearing protection, don't expect to hear anything for a while. Or build/buy a suppressor (and pay a $200 tax, if you want to stay legal).

Now, about pistol grips: some love 'em, some hate 'em. I find that I can shoot fine with a Cruiser grip, or with a tactical (buttstock with projecting PG). Some can't. If you go with the PG, be prepared to practice a LOT. You have to get your hip-shooting down perfectly, since you can't aim with your eye.

Any other questions, feel free to email.

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"Taking a long view of history, we may say that
anyone who lays down his arms deserves whatever he gets."
--Jeff Cooper

chucko
September 1, 1999, 04:16 PM
I like the comprimise that the Choate pistol grip stock gives me. I still have a full length stock, but it also give me the control of a pistol grip. Here's a pic of mine.
http://www.mindspring.com/~chucko/rem870/sg1.jpg

Chuck

EAF
September 1, 1999, 04:41 PM
Bob S.,

The shotgun. What a wonderfully versatile weapon for personal defense. I recommend them to all my "gotta' have something around the house" friends. The one thing I tell them not to get is a pistol grip. Unless you're going to practice a lot with a pistol grip shotgun (which a lot of folks I know don't do, even with stocked shotguns), keep the stock. Easier to aim with, better control, soaks up recoil better, and helps define the term "buttstroke". Overall, I believe that the stock is there for a reason, and to take it off and use a pistol grip would prevent the shotgun from doing it's "job" the way it was designed.

Just my two cents.

EAF

Joe the Redneck
September 1, 1999, 06:06 PM
I have the that shotgun. I went and bought the verticle fore-end and the Cheaper than Dirt folding stock. Bouth of those items now sit in tha bottom of my closet. I am back to the wood that came w/ it.

The cheap folding stock is wobbly and the verticle foregrip tends to make you want to pull back on the forearm. Very bad when the gun is cocked, it locks the whole thing up.

That pistole gripped full stock sounds like a good idea.

Glock Raider
September 1, 1999, 08:04 PM
I have to agree with those posts that like the full stock. If you can find a high quality folding stock all the better. Though a pistol grip shotgun beats the heck out of no shotgun

Long Path
September 2, 1999, 01:15 AM
Be advised that many shotguns (especially pumps) are incapable of being used properly from a shooting grip with an aftermarket stock installed. Friend put a folding pistol-grip "tactical stock" (hey, it's black and made of ABS. It MUST be "tactical"!) on his Mossberg, and couldn't unlock the action with his right hand in a shooting grip. Another couple of shotguns I've seen, you can't operate the tang safety with a pistol-grip stock on 'em and while holding them in a shooting grip. Some, the stocks will interfere with the crossbolt safety. many folding stocks won't work with a sidesaddle.

As for me, I'm just not interested at all in pistol-grip stocks. Even if I had a shorty shotgun without a buttstock, I'd get a modified pistol-gripped wood stock that had the same angle as the orriginal stock-- they reduce felt recoil, significantly.

If I was to be in very tight areas a lot, or was traveling and wanted to be able to handily conceal my shotgun, I'd get the highest-quality folding buttstock money could buy, and test to make certain the gun would operate properly with it.

BTW, you will univerally shoot better with a buttstock, even if you have to tuck it under your arm to get the gun in closer to you in tight places. Try it.

Joey
September 2, 1999, 02:22 AM
Where can I find a replacement stock without a pistolgrip with a 13" LOP for a Mosberg 500?? Everything I've found has the pistol grip with a stock.

Phillip
September 2, 1999, 03:00 AM
Check out the Brownell's website. You can find short stocks there. I am considering one for my M 500. It is a pistol grip full stock with the speed feed option. A friend of mine put a straight stock with speed feed on his and I like it. After reading some of the negatives on pistol grips, I will have to give it a little more thought.

Joey
September 2, 1999, 03:46 AM
All I've been able to find on Brownell's are the two pistol grip stocks, and a cheesy looking Choate adjustiable one. The Short stocked Speed Feed stock (TAC IV-S) does not have their signature speed feed shell holders either. I'm leery of getting a stock with a pistol grip from what everybody's said about them. However if that's all that's avaible for the 500 looks like I'll be getting one to try.

Glock Raider
September 2, 1999, 02:50 PM
JOEY I thought you were talking about a pistol grip without a stock.A stock with a pistol grip is a differn't thing all together.I see no problem with using the stock that has a pistolgrip. (although I have heard they are easier to take away than a standard stock,from a weapon retention point of veiw.)

Matt VDW
September 2, 1999, 03:43 PM
I'm in a minority on this, but... I like the "fore and aft" pistol grip arrangement. My Mossberg 500 has a Pachmayr rear pistol grip and a pistol grip forearm. This makes for a short overall length, excellent leverage when pumping the action, and reasonable recoil control. I can easily lift the barrel up to eye level and get a good "point" index. The biggest disadvantage that I see is that it wouldn't look very good to a jury (i.e., not very "sporting") in the aftermath of a shooting.

I realize that this set up doesn't offer much practical accuracy beyond 10 yards or so, but that's further than I'll ever have to shoot inside my house.

Let me also add the disclaimer that I haven't done much serious shotgunning, so I can't make an authoritative comparison between the dual pistol grips and a conventional stock.

Long Path
September 2, 1999, 09:56 PM
I really can't find a single advantage to a pistol-grip vertical fore end. Can anyone here argue a real advantage provided by one?

All I can see are the drawbacks: bulkier, tend to rattle, tend to cause shooter to pull back on the fore end, absolutely require one single hold on the fore end, harder to fire from below the point of the hip to to grip angle, and incite people to attack it as "dangerous-looking."

Supposed benefits of (a) allows one more leverage to really rack that shotgun hard in the instance of a rough chambering, and/or (b) keeps hand from sliding out over the end of the barrel on a shorty are bogus. If your gun's so rough that you need extra leverage and a better handle to rack it, your problems will not be solved by a new fore end grip-- you need a new shotgun. 2ndly, has anyone EVER had their hand slip off the forend of their shotgun? I haven't, and I've shot a lot on sweaty days in September, afield. For the Witness Protection System 870's (see Tubbs on old Miami Vice reruns), they put a little stud sticking down, or a strap on the end to keep your hand from coming off the end, should you slip, but they have virtually no fore end on them, and the barrels are cut down even with the end of the magazine cap.

Just curious. I'll keep an open mind, though.

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited September 02, 1999).]

HaTeDrUgY
September 2, 1999, 11:18 PM
I have a pistol grip forearm on my Mossberg along with a Leupold Vari-X III scope(the scope cost more than the shotgun).

I shot alot of 3" inch shells, be it slugs, magnum turkey loads, or OOO buck. The first time I shot a 3 incher there was alot of recoil and muzzle climb. So the first accessory I picked was the forearm grip. My slug groups improved so much I wanted to strech it out some more. So I picked up the Leupold scope.

I haven't had to use mine for home defense yet. It's my hunting gun. But if I do grab it first when I hear the sound of breaking glass I know there is one in the chamber. Screw all that "**** in there pants when they hear the sound of a shell being chambered". They won't know what hit them if I'm on the trigger end.

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| 4 SALE: MY FEEDOM,to|
| the person with |
| enough MONEY & POWER|
| to pry it from my |
| cold dead hands |

Matt VDW
September 3, 1999, 09:24 AM
Long Path,

I wouldn't put a pistol grip forearm on a conventionally stocked shotgun.

If, for whatever reason, the buttstock has been replaced by a pistol grip, then it's possible that a pistol grip forearm provides better weapon retention than the "Vindicator" set-up with a pistol grip rear and a conventional forearm. Just a guess.

Long Path
September 4, 1999, 08:49 PM
HaTedRugy: Hey, if your groups improve, that's certainly a good answer. I hadn't given much thought to the consideration of taming big recoil on high-brass shells with heavy charges of shot or slug. (Saw some #4's today at Wally World that were 3.75 drams equiv. of powder and 1 and 7/8 oz of shot!! Ouch!)

Vertical fore end would likely interfere with bench shooting, but THAT'S not what the gun's for, right? :)

I've gotta say, though, HatEdrUgy-- it's not a really great idea to keep one chambered in the Mossberg when you're not actively using the arm. Check out the safety on one of those, sometime. Consider that a long gun is not the personal weapon that a pistol is, and that you will have a few seconds to engage a long gun. I agree about the racking sound being a bit overstated by many, and I sort of put that in the general category of "warning shots"-- I don't give any. But... a rack can come fairly quietly, if you practice. Although the tactic is questionable, there is, in times of necessary stealth, the "rack-bang" technique. (No, I'm not a big fan of it, but whatcha' gonna do?)


Actually, I believe we've spotted a "TACTICAL" niche that has yet to be filled: The STEALTH shotgun, quiet to charge.

Hmmmm....

pate
September 5, 1999, 03:54 PM
I like the pistol grip forearm because it allows me to distribute some of the recoil to my forward arm. It also prevents hand slippage from the forearm. My only problem with them is that they are all shaped to position the hand forward, which forces an awkward wrist deviation. I would prefer a cylindrical grip, like an HK K grip, so I could hold it at a more comfortable angle.

Douglas in CT
September 6, 1999, 05:36 PM
The "answer" is:
The Benelli M1 Super 90

Full stock with pistol grip! :) :)

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Regards,
~Douglas in CT :)

stdalire
September 7, 1999, 07:41 AM
I want to add my inventory of guns and I want a shotgun. Only I cannot make a decision if a PISTOL GRIP OR with THE LONG BUTT. I haven't fired a shotgun in all my life. I've seen a combination of the regular butt and the pistol grip. Which one is better. In my country only 12 & 24 gauge are famous. My budget is 500 dollar only. Can you please advise. Thanks

oberkommando
October 9, 1999, 03:45 AM
The rack and run senario is over rated, as ayoob massad says in his stress fire shotgun book, it can make you seem incompetent for waiting to load gun until encounter, (maybe they forgot to buy shells also) As to advantage of front pistol grip don't have experience, but off topic, have picture of NAVY SEAL on aircraft carrier with M14 with front grip?

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The beauty of the second Amendment is that it is not needed until they try to take it. T JEFFERSON

pete80
October 11, 1999, 11:44 AM
Coinneach, there is NO rifle round that can even come close to the power that a close range 00 buckshot blast generates. The 12 gauge shotgun is THE most destructive and powerfull longarm that you can obtain, no ****!

Bennett Richards
October 11, 1999, 05:10 PM
There was a GREAT special on the History channel..."Tales of the Gun" dedicated to the shotgun. It went on to say that when first used in combat during WW1 The Germans protested the use of the shotgun as a violation of the Geneva convention because of the horrendous nature of the wounds. They went on to say that indeed there is NO weapon that is as devistating under 50 yards as a shotgun, that INCLUDES submachine guns.
I would tend to agree!

The program was VERY comprehensive and well worth watching. Ended up showing $100,000.00 Perazzi and Fabrisi shotguns being shot by John Milius and Steven Spielberg....

Ben

Futo Inu
October 11, 1999, 06:04 PM
WalMart has the Mossberg Persuader for $195.00!

Anthony and the 41 Magnum
October 11, 1999, 08:37 PM
Douglas: Ditto on the Benelli.

With that said, I am developing the ULTIMATE pistol grip (no stock) shotgun. Mine will be based on an old Winchester 1300 Defender in 12 gauge with an 18 inch barrel and a 7+1 shot magazine. It's light, maneuverable, an has a noticeably shorter slide stroke than other shotguns. It also halfway cocks itself by driving the slide back upon firing. It's also quite light at about six and a half pounds with the pistol grip.

I'm going to leave the foreend stock with the Tac-Star speedfeed ammo carrier mounted. The pistol grip will be a new Speedfeed unit patterned after the "witness protection" style that the professionals seem to favor. It redirects the recoil through the arm like a standard shotgun stock.

It's going to be loaded it with Winchester 2 3/4 inch #1 magnum buckshot. It launches 20 0.30 caliber pellets at 1100 feet per second. More to the point, that's over 700 grains of buckshot at the speed of sound! oUcH!!!

With that said, I view the pistol grip shotgun a scenario specific weapon that I have the luxury of having. I already own a heavily customized Remington 1100, preban Benelli Super 90, and Ithaca Model 37.

To me, the pistol grip shotgun excels at extremely close across-the-room range when fast handling is more important than long range accuracy. If 10 yards is enough and you need to shoot quickly...this could be the ticket.

The proper firing method is not from the hip, but to jut the elbow of the strong side holding the shotgun to bring the weapon up into your cone of vision. A sort of crude indexing technique similar to Jim Cirillo's nose point technique. Crude, but deadly efficient at close quarters.

Bottom line...

If this is your only shotgun, stick to a conventional sporting stock.

If this is an extra shotgun you'd like to modify then have at it.

Good luck.

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- Anthony (the crazy Italian with a .41 Magnum)

"Civilized people are taught by logic, barbarians by necessity, communities by tradition, and the lesson is inculcated even in wild beasts by nature itself. They learn that they have to defend their own bodies and persons and lives from violence of any and every kind by all the means within their power."

- Marcus Tullius Cicero