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View Full Version : My Thoughts on UFC... What're yours? (Long)


Matt Wallis
February 24, 2002, 10:48 AM
Well, after being cable TV-less for most of my life and never getting to see much UFC, I was lent a tape of highlight fights from the first 3 years of UFC competition. That's right, I watched 6 hours of UFC in two days!:eek:

First, here are my biases in evaluating UFC... I have a first dan in traditional (i.e. no point competition sparring, ITF style) Taekwondo. I am currently studying medieval European MA consisting of longsword, dagger and grappling/wrestling from 14th and 15th century German manuals (in translation). I have never fought or sparred full contact (I know, I know... It's a problem I want to remedy) or really done any competition sparring.

So what did I think? Well, the first year was the best season and after that it seemed to go downhill. It was only in the first competition or two that I thought we really got to see what striking and grappling arts could do. It had the most look of being like a real life "Bloodsport" and seemed the most "no holds barred."

Here's my thoughs on grappling. In the first year, Gracie dominated, using his BJJ. In the years after the grappling tended to suck. Here's why, IMHO. Gracie used his BJJ as a martial art. He had trained it as his way of attacking and defeating his opponents. After that it seemed that people gappled for only one of two reasons. Either it was to defend against someone bear-hugging or tackling them, or they would simply go to a clinch/grapple to keep from getting hit. Once there, they would continue to "wrestle" even when they could pull back and strike. I saw times when one guy was clinging to the wire mesh fence with his back to his opponent. The other guy (often someone who was supposed to be a power hitter) would simply hold on to the first guy in a bear hug or clinch. Why not, if you're such a power hitter, step back and pummel the guy in the kidneys or side of the head while his back was turned? Ridiculous!

Which brings me to the striking. Despite the fact that Gracie dominated in the first couple of competitions, some decent martial artists showed how effective good striking could be. I saw one guy take out a much larger sumo type guy with an overhead knifehand to the face. It floored the bigger opponent. Literally sat him on his @$$. And I saw very effective kicks. Low roundhouses to the leg which "chopped down" bigger opponents. And I even saw an effective high kick used twice (in different matches). It was a front kick to the chest. Both times it lifted the opponent off his feet and threw him backwards. Both times it was a very quick kick that left little openings. You're telling me if that fight was in a bar where the guy was going to crash into a bunch of stools and tables and come down on a tile floor that wouldn't be an effective technique? Don't you believe it. Elbows also seemed very effective, though in later matches I thought they had become over-rated.

Overall, this is what I took away from it. You have to know how to grapple. Because when people don't want to get hit (which they don't :p ) they will instinctivly go to the clinch, or tackle you. But you only wrestle so that you can get out of a clinch! You need power hitting to take someone out.

Well, what do you folks think?

Regards,
Matt Wallis

aep
February 24, 2002, 04:48 PM
hey Matt, I have seen almost every UFC. Your right, they went downhill after the first few because of additional rules concernng using elbows when someone is on the ground, wearing padded gloves etc. I also agree that you need to learn how to grapple but in a real fight the cement/ground can be very unforgiving. A fight should be finished standing up if possible.

Did you see the fight between Kimo and Gracie? Gracie could not return because of the beating Kimo gave him. Gracie was able to grab Kimo's ponytail and get an advantage and ultimatley defeat him.

Matt Wallis
February 25, 2002, 07:50 AM
I did see that fight. I thought the same. In fact, it looked like Kimo was going to pull out the win until Gracie got ahold of his hair. Anyway, to me, Gracie was the exception rather than the rule. He was different in that he had trained to defeat people with grappling. Most of the rest (there seemed to be a few exceptions, like Severn) seemed to grapple more as a cop-out, because they couldn't really fight.

And someone answer me this question... Why is Shamrock a UFC "star"? Seemed like he got his but kicked, at least in the highlight fights I saw. I mean, I'm sure he could wipe the floor up with me:D , but compared to the rest of the UFC fighters, I wasn't impressed. Same with the so-called "Tank" Abbot. Looked like a big fat guy who was powerful, but had absolutely no skill or conditioning. Being fat and huge may mean you win fights in a bar, but it doesn't make you a good fighter.

Regards,
Matt

Curdog
February 26, 2002, 02:12 PM
"Being fat and huge may mean you win fights in a bar, but it doesn't make you a good fighter. "

If winning fights doesn't make you a good fighter, what does pray tell?

Matt Wallis
February 26, 2002, 02:17 PM
Winning with skill.

Matt

Skorzeny
February 26, 2002, 03:37 PM
Winning with skill.
What does that mean? Winning while looking pretty? Skill is nothing without physical attributes. Fighting ability is a combination of different elements like physical attributes (strength, speed, timing, CV conditioning, etc.), mechanical skills (techniques), strategy, experience and so forth. Any given individual will have some strengths and some weaknesses - the fact that one wins for one reason and not another does not make him better - simply winning does.
Did you see the fight between Kimo and Gracie? Gracie could not return because of the beating Kimo gave him. Gracie was able to grab Kimo's ponytail and get an advantage and ultimatley defeat him.
Kimo Leopoldo did not give Royce Gracie a beating. Gracie could not continue due to dehydration. As for the ponytail, too bad. Why didn't Leopoldo shave it off and show up again? At the end of the fight, Leopoldo was the one who was about to have his elbow popped off, not Gracie.
I also agree that you need to learn how to grapple but in a real fight the cement/ground can be very unforgiving. A fight should be finished standing up if possible.
Yes. A fight should be terminated by standing up - by evasion and escape. The one big advantage of standing up is retaining the mobility - to be able to run away. Staying and fighting standing up is not inherently safer than fighting on the ground UNLESS you exercise that mobility.
BTW, the top dog of NHB fighting shows is no longer the UFC, and it hasn't been the UFC for a long while. Most in the know consider Japan's "Pride" as the best NHB event (allows elbows, stomping, knees on the ground, etc.). It pays big money to the fighters (compared to the peanuts from the UFC) and attracts the top talent like Vanderlei Silva, Kazushi Sakuraba, Mario Sperry and Igor Vovchanchyn.

Lastly, the early UFC shows you wrote about are dynasaurs. Almost all of today's NHB competitors cross train in striking and grappling (prime example - Vanderlei Silva - BJJ & Muay Thai).

If you want to see top dogs in NHB

See Kazushi Sakuraba: http://www.sherdog.com/videos/sakuraba/sakurabavideo.shtm

and see the guy who beat him - twice: http://www.sherdog.com/videos/vanderleisilva/vanderleisilvavideo.shtm

On the bottom, you can download a zipped MPEG file (high or low quality) showing the highlights of their victories.

Skorzeny

Matt Wallis
February 26, 2002, 04:08 PM
"What does that mean? Winning while looking pretty?"

Uh, no. It means winning because your skill at fighting is better than that of your opponent.

Alright, I figured my point was pretty obvious but apparently I was mistaken. I will try and explain again. When I said, "Being fat and huge may mean you win fights in a bar, but it doesn't make you a good fighter." I meant the guy in question (Tank Abbot) seemed to be winning simply because of his size and for no other reason. When he fought someone of the same size, or someone smaller but with actual skill he lost. Hence my comment that he might win fights in a bar (where he theoretically would pick fights with people who are smaller and have no skill at fighting), but that doesn't mean he's a good fighter (since when he meets up with people the same size or who really know how to fight he loses).

"Kimo Leopoldo did not give Royce Gracie a beating."

I'll go rewatch the tape. But it sure looked to me like he did!

"As for the ponytail, too bad. Why didn't Leopoldo shave it off and show up again?"

Don't ask me, ask him. I think me and "aep" both thought that it was a dumb weakness to go into the ring with. I know I did, anyway. Didn't seem like either of us were saying it was unfair.

"Staying and fighting standing up is not inherently safer than fighting on the ground UNLESS you exercise that mobility."

Agreed (in a street fight)! But what do you think of my example of the guy in UFC clinging to the wall with the other guy clinging to his back? Seemed useless.

"Lastly, the early UFC shows you wrote about are dynasaurs. Almost all of today's NHB competitors..."

I know you said "NHB" competitors and not "UFC", but my impression of the UFC was that the level of the competitors went _down_ as time went on. Maybe it's different in other NHB events.

Can you rent tapes of "Pride"? If not, what are the other NHB events you can get here?

Thanks,
Matt

Skorzeny
February 27, 2002, 12:25 AM
Uh, no. It means winning because your skill at fighting is better than that of your opponent.
That's not inherently better than because of attributes. For example, Rickson Gracie is not as physically gifted as some NHB athletes. Yet, because of his superb techniques and timing, he beats his opponents. At the same time, Frank Shamrock (Ken Shamrock's adoptive brother) is not what you'd call a smooth technician. But because of his incredible conditioning and physical attributes, he beats his opponents. Who is to say that one fighter is "better" than the other. These are two different approaches to the victory in the ring (or the cage).
I know you said "NHB" competitors and not "UFC", but my impression of the UFC was that the level of the competitors went _down_ as time went on. Maybe it's different in other NHB events.
There was a period in the UFC when enough competitors wisened up on ground fighting to be able to stall, but not mount enough of an offense from there. UFC is changed quite a bit nowadays and has some superb fighters, including technicians like Murillo Bustamante (trains with Mario Sperry).
Can you rent tapes of "Pride"? If not, what are the other NHB events you can get here?
I don't think that Pride tapes are widely available in the US. You can definitely buy them (VHS & DVD) from the website I listed above. Pride is also on DirectTV pay-per-view. There are other events like KOTC (King of the Cage - US) and Shooto (aka Shootfighting - Japan).

Check out the clips above and many others available on that site - including Rickson Gracie (supposedly the best of them all):
http://www.sherdog.com/videos/ricksongracie/ricksongracievideo.shtm

Skorzeny

Matt Wallis
February 27, 2002, 08:01 AM
Hey Skorzeny,

"Who is to say that one fighter is "better" than the other. These are two different approaches to the victory in the ring"

I understand what you're saying. Certainly, size does matter. But I guess I still think that fighters who train for skill and conditioning are "better" fighters than people who are just huge and fat. However, I suppose I am narrowly defining "better" as "more skilled".

"There was a period in the UFC when enough competitors wisened up on ground fighting to be able to stall, but not mount enough of an offense from there."

I tell you, that statement totally sums up what I was seeing! I guess I will definitely have to check out some more recent stuff.

"Check out the clips above and many others available on that site"

Thanks for the links.

Matt

rusher
February 27, 2002, 08:28 AM
As far as the the Gracie & Kimo I was there at the match (Talked my way in to a ushering job seating Japanese tourist and got to see the whole thing for free). As I remember Kimo got in a couple good shots in to Gracie's ribs. When Gracie was going back to the locker room after he got Kimo to submit (damn ponytail)I saw Gracie holding his side pretty hard while sitting down and his corner team were arguing back and forth and Gracie tried to stand up and couldnt. Well that's my little two cents to the story!

Quartus
February 27, 2002, 07:26 PM
Graciewas able to grab Kimo's ponytail and get an advantage and ultimatley defeat him.


Good reason not to wear a ponytail. Or long hair. Duh.

stinger
February 27, 2002, 11:31 PM
what makes a fighter good???

in my experience, the guy who wins the fight is the better fighter (at least that day). you don't have to have the most training, or have the best technique, or look the coolest.

don't believe me? next time you get your a$$ kicked, try convincing your buddies, girlfriend, and onlookers that even though you are a missing most of your teeth and are bleeding from every orface on your face that you are still the superior fighter.

Skorzeny
February 28, 2002, 01:52 AM
rusher:

Since you were there, perhaps you can tell me - who was the one who gave up the fight? Who was the one about to have his elbow broken off? Who is the one collapsing to the canvas at the end of the fight?

Undoubtedly Kimo Leopoldo got a few shots in on Royce Gracie. But who won the fight at the end? For Kimo Leopoldo to "tap out" and then to come back to brag when Royce Gracie could not continue on the tournament is idiotic and egostical - if the fight had continued on, he'd have been carried out on a stretcher and definitely unable to gloat.

stinger:

As I mentioned before, many different elements come together to make one a "good fighter." I did leave one element out though - luck. Sometimes, even with the superior physical attributes (which include not just size, but strength, speed, power, balance, etc. etc.), superior skill and all that, one slip of foot can turn you into a loser (with most of your teeth missing like you wrote).

I think it was Chuck Yeager who said "I'd rather be lucky than good any day."

Fights are very chancy even for the superbly confident. Another good reason to avoid and evade them aside from legal reasons and a host of other good reasons.

Skorzeny

Matt Wallis
February 28, 2002, 07:57 AM
"don't believe me? next time you get your a$$ kicked, try convincing your buddies, girlfriend, and onlookers that even though you are a missing most of your teeth and are bleeding from every orface on your face that you are still the superior fighter."

You can't be serious? Have you actually read any of this thread, or did you just take one thing that was said, misinterpret it, and then latch onto it with your simplistic logic?

Obviously if I, who has some training and skill, "get my ass kicked", the guy who did it would be a "better" fighter, or at least tougher. But just because someone kicks someone elses but doesn't make them a good fighter. A big huge guy can suck at fighting (i.e., have no stamina, not be able to throw a good punch, no basic wrestling skills), and still be able to kick someone's but simply because they pick on someone smaller, etc. That wouldn't make them a "good fighter."

Matt

ronin308
February 28, 2002, 09:05 AM
Matt- I think you're suffering from martial artist's denial. I suffered from it for a long time too. I won't get into too many details about the where or why, but I got into a fight with this fat loser kid back in high school. At this point I had my 1st degree black in TKD. We got into a clinch and I ducked one of his punches and he grabbed me and raised his knee right into my nose. It wasn't broken, and it didn't hurt, but it bled out of both nostrils like crazy. At this point the people watching stopped the fight. I'm really glad that I lost a real fight because I completely changed the way that I train now. No, I don't eat Big Macs everyday like the fat kid did ;) I now train to fight more like Vanderlei does. I quit doing the traditional martial arts, I kept the mental teachings but now I train to fight savagely. The fat kid got lucky, just like Chuck Yeager said. No skill, no talent, but he won the day. And I'm a better man now because of it.

Dan

Matt Wallis
February 28, 2002, 09:36 AM
I get the feeling people here are trying to pigeon hole me as someone who thinks being big and tough doesn't count. Or maybe that I think "looking pretty" equals being a good fighter and not "looking pretty" equals being a bad fighter. I have never said any such thing. Go back a reread what I wrote.

"Matt- I think you're suffering from martial artist's denial."

What is it I'm denying?

Regards,
Matt

ronin308
February 28, 2002, 02:36 PM
Matt- I'm not trying to pigeonhole you, you said: But just because someone kicks someone elses but doesn't make them a good fighter. A big huge guy can suck at fighting (i.e., have no stamina, not be able to throw a good punch, no basic wrestling skills), and still be able to kick someone's but simply because they pick on someone smaller, etc. That wouldn't make them a "good fighter."

If they win fights, it does make them good fighters. You don't have to have skill or conditioning to be a good fighter. If you're 5'5" and you have zero fighting skills but you beat the crap out of a 6'0" wrestler, you are a good fighter. If you win consistently, you are obviously good at it. There are people I know personally that can win fights when they are really angry. "Martial artists denial" is when I think that martial artists hate to believe that some skill-less chump could smash their face in.

Danger Dave
February 28, 2002, 04:32 PM
I'm semi-trained, 5'9", 162 lbs.

If I walk up behind Rickson Gracie and beat him over the head with a bat, I've won a "fight". Does that make me a "good" fighter, and him a "bad" fighter?

From what I've seen, amongst tough-guy "fighters", the fight is usually decided by who hit the other one when they weren't prepared, or were too drunk to defend themselves.

The UFC and other competitions, no matter how few rules there are, are more duels than fights. In a fight, you don't always know when you're going to be in one, who with, how many, what they bring to the fight, etc., etc. I think the most valuable thing any "martial artist" should learn is situational awareness - don't ever willingly put yourself in a potential losing situation; the results can be permanent.

The idea of rules, weight classes, etc. is to make the competition as much skill vs. skill as possible. The real world doesn't work this way. You have to beat whatever they have in a fight, not just out-skill them.

And, in defense of the "skill-less chumps", I will have to say that facing an untrained opponent can sometimes be harder than a trained one - you never know what to expect from someone who doesn't have any idea what they're doing next.

ronin308
February 28, 2002, 06:56 PM
Danger Dave-

If I walk up behind Rickson Gracie and beat him over the head with a bat, I've won a "fight". Does that make me a "good" fighter, and him a "bad" fighter? From what I've seen, amongst tough-guy "fighters", the fight is usually decided by who hit the other one when they weren't prepared, or were too drunk to defend themselves.

What you're describing here is more of an attack than a fight. Most dirty street brawlers would much prefer an attack than a fight. Hitting someone over the head with a bat from behind and going hand-to-hand are two different things.

And, in defense of the "skill-less chumps", I will have to say that facing an untrained opponent can sometimes be harder than a trained one - you never know what to expect from someone who doesn't have any idea what they're doing next.

I agree heartily.

Batman
February 28, 2002, 08:27 PM
My complaint with the UFC and its brethren, is that it doesn't give a good example of what really works on the street. It works in the ring, one on one, with no death (hopefully) involved. On the street there can be 1-20+ guys, bare knuckle or with rocks, chains, bottles etc.

The reason Gracie won the first couple UFCs is that he had superior skill in grappling than 90+ % of his opponents. He was able to take them out of their element and dominate them. When pitted against someone of like skill (Ken Shamrock who did not really try to win), he wasn't able to do anything other than lie there for 30 + minutes. This is in the first couple, before Royce stopped competing.

The fight with Kimo came down to Kimo not trying to grapple with Royce like Royce wanted, and it tired Royce out, not because Kimo was better or more skilled, he just didn't want to go to the ground and fight Gracie's game.

The UFC has gotten far away from where it began ie style against style, no weight limits etc.

Now you have "cross trained" fighters of shoot-grappling-thai-ju-kwon-ryu that are huge and muscular and lack technique. That is why the bouts in the recent UFCs have been the big guy holding the fence and the other big guy clinching with him. I still thought Maurice Smith's kick to Mark Colemans head was really a good, strategic move :)

Also I think (opinion alert!) that the people who participate in the UFC are not concerned with the other aspects of the martial arts like character and spiritual development.

I hope I never get into a fight, for money or blood, so take this with a grain of salt

I am not saying they are worthless, but lets take them for what they are - entertainment, not a how to guide.

swsurgeon
February 28, 2002, 09:20 PM
It's interesting as a competition but has some limitations if you try to translate the styles to streetfighting. No small joint manipulation, biting, eye attacks, etc. and obviously no weapons (whether makeshift or manufactured as such).

Skorzeny
March 1, 2002, 02:28 AM
Yes, but better than watching "boxing," "kickboxing" or kick-the-air "martial arts" demonstrations, eh?
Now you have "cross trained" fighters of shoot-grappling-thai-ju-kwon-ryu that are huge and muscular and lack technique.
I beg to differ. Current crop of NHB fighters (including the UFC) are much, much more talented than those from earlier UFCs. Now you have guys who can wrestle, punch, kick, elbow, knee and pull out submissions from inferior positions.

Skorzeny

Matt Wallis
March 1, 2002, 09:04 AM
Ah, this is really turning into the good discussion I hoped it would be!

I like what Danger Dave said, however let me give another example that takes the surprise/sneak attack element out of it. I'm 5'8 and about 180 (short and stocky, but not terribly out of shape). I have some training. I could go around and pick fights with people that are 5'7" and less and who weigh at least thirty pounds less than me and who have no training and (barring some extreme circumstance) I probably would dominate. Would that make me a "great fighter" or even a "good" one? I don't think so. At least, not in my opinion. And that's what I see fighters like Tank Abbot as doing. The proof is (at least in the fights I saw) when they fought someone of equal size or with actual skill they lost.

""Martial artists denial" is when I think that martial artists hate to believe that some skill-less chump could smash their face in."

Hey, believe me, I have no delusions of grandeur. Example: There's another teacher here at the school where I work that is 6'4", and about 250 (you've already heard my dimensions above). He has no formaly trained fighting skill and little (if any) real fight experience. But he lifts and is active athletically (basketball, mostly). I am quite sure that, barring a vicious surprise attack or a really lucky shot, that this guy could kick my but!

"If you're 5'5" and you have zero fighting skills but you beat the crap out of a 6'0" wrestler, you are a good fighter."

Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about guys that have zero fighting skills but are 6'6" and 300 lbs while fighting people my size! See the difference?

Re: The Gracie/Kimo fight. I had a chance to watch it again (since I haven't returned the tape I borrowed :p) and I have to say it was an exaggeration to say Kimo gave Gracie a beating. However, I can tell you why I remembered it that way. It is because Kimo gave Gracie a real run for his money. He was able to keep Gracie from grappling him to the ground for some time, and when on the ground he was able to keep gracie from getting the upper hand. The pony tail thing (which I still say was a stupid thing to have) wasn't really much of a factor either. Though Gracie did end up basically pulling it out by the roots, that wasn't when he got the finishing arm bar. They actually separated and reset after that! In the mean time, Kimo did get in at least one really nasty shot to the floating ribs, brought his full weight down on Gracie a couple of times, got in a good headbutt and eventually some punches to Gracie's head that it was hard to tell how effective they were. Finally, after the pony tail ripped out, they reset, got into a grapple again and that's when Gracie got the arm lock causing Kimo to tap out.

No one is saying Gracie cheated, or that he didn't deserve to win or anything like that. But it is obvious Kimo was a tough guy. He did hurt Gracie (Gracie really looked haggard and almost limping after the fight), and also forced Gracie to exert _a lot_ more energy than he usually had to (even the commentators went on and on about that). So you can still say that Gracie's not being able to continue due to dehydratiion was at least in part because of the extremely tough fight Kimo gave him. (I'm not making any point here, just discussing the fight.)

Why Kimo never fought again (or did he?) I don't know. I would have liked to see it.

Regards,
Matt

Joe Demko
March 1, 2002, 09:32 AM
Part of being a "good fighter" would appear to be selecting opponents you believe you are capable of defeating. Everybody from Sun Tzu on down has recommended against getting involved in "certain defeat" situations.
If I may quote my high school wrestling coach (who was a combat veteran as well): "Men, there is no such thing as a good loss or a bad win."

TheeBadOne
March 1, 2002, 10:43 AM
Tank" Abbot had a game plan that he stuck to and it worked for him; "Just keep punching until the problem goes away". Was he the baddest guy on the planet? No, but he was the baddest man on MANY a night. Find what works for you and make it work for you. Looking at Tank and how he fought, that's what he did. Even Superman has his kyrptonite weakness, nobody is without weaknesses, small tho they may be. Look at the sport of football. A great defense/offense comes along, lasts for a while, then someone figures a way around it. If you see someone in action enough you can devise a plan to deal with them. What's tough is dealing with someone you have no clue about. Grappeling has taken on a resurgence again in this country and I expect it to soar high again. The "origninal toughman contest" on Fox is making appearances all over the country again. It'll be interesting to see where this all leads.

TaxPhd
March 1, 2002, 12:37 PM
Batman,

Wasn't it Pete Williams that knocked out Mark Coleman with the kick to the head?

Danger Dave
March 1, 2002, 01:04 PM
"What you're describing here is more of an attack than a fight. Most dirty street brawlers would much prefer an attack than a fight. Hitting someone over the head with a bat from behind and going hand-to-hand are two different things."

EXACTLY! Fighting "fair" - what is that? A fight between a 215lb professional boxer and a 215lb couch potatoe? The High School running back & the 125 lb captain of the chess club? Nobody picks a fight with someone they consider equal in fighting attributes to them. They pick someone they have a perceived advantage over. You HAVE to assume you'll be fighting someone bigger, stronger, more experienced, more aggressive, armed, or with a buddy - in other words, someone who has reason to believe he can beat you without serious repercussions.

You don't win by "fighting" fair (again, I say anything with the word "fair" in it is not a fight). You win by finding what advantage you have, and using it on your opponent. My instructor put it simply - "Don't fight their fight - make them fight yours."

Forget about "fair" - they'd leave you a way out, if they thought they could lose.

(BTW, I use the word "win" for lack of a better one - in a fight, if you go home when it's over, you've "won" by not getting seriously hurt or killed - or finding yourself in serious legal trouble).

Skorzeny
March 1, 2002, 08:22 PM
Matt Willis:

Your renewed observation about the Kimo/Royce fight is on the mark (and amazingly enough, consistent with my observation :) ).

One must remember, however, the HUGE disparity in physical attributes between Kimo and Royce (Royce was a stick man back then and not much better now). That certainly makes the victory more "skillful." But, as I've always said, physical attributes are important elements for a "fighter," which is why Rickson Gracie looks like he does, his incredible skill and timing notwithstanding.
Tank" Abbot had a game plan that he stuck to and it worked for him; "Just keep punching until the problem goes away".
Actually, Tank Abbot had a great strategy - 1) out-punch guys whom he could OR 2) double-leg down the guys he could not, pin them against the cage and "ground & pound." Where he went wrong is encountering superior fighters who could 1) out-punch him (or at least not quite from being out-punched) AND 2) wouldn't be tackled down and pinned.
Wasn't it Pete Williams that knocked out Mark Coleman with the kick to the head?
Yes it was. Maurice Smith, too, put on a kickboxing clinic against Mark Coleman. Coleman, to his credit though, learned to be more well-arounded and garnered himself a HUGE Pride tournament win.

Skorzeny

Skorzeny
March 1, 2002, 08:25 PM
Danger Dave:
Nobody picks a fight with someone they consider equal in fighting attributes to them. They pick someone they have a perceived advantage over. You HAVE to assume you'll be fighting someone bigger, stronger, more experienced, more aggressive, armed, or with a buddy - in other words, someone who has reason to believe he can beat you without serious repercussions.
You are assuming that the "fighter" in question is in a rational frame of mind. Some, because of pathology, others, because of alcohol, drugs or vanity, fight against someone who is clearly about to squash him like a bug.

But then again, as I wrote before, a fight is a very chancy thing - there is no such thing as a certain victory.

Skorzeny

RobRPM2222
April 27, 2002, 10:12 PM
I'm a big fan of MMA/NHB ( Mixed Martial Art/No Holds Barred ) fighting. I also train it periodically.

btw, a REALLY good discussion forum for MMA is the Underground Forum, at http://www.mma.tv .

anyways, MMA fighting is not street fighting. that's pretty obvious. There are no weapons allowed, you can wear (VERY LIGHT) gloves, you know who you will be fighting beforehand, there is the presence of consent, etc. Some people get hung up on the fact it's a sport, but after you see boxers KO guys who do super deadly mall ninja systems, or amateur wrestlers put overweight Soldier of Fortune-wannabe combatives guys who have never broken a sweat during training in the hospital, you realize how powerful combat sports can be. Of course, there are limitations to sports too, such as the lack of foul tactics.

MMA fighters of today are WAYYY more skilled than the guys who fought back in 1993-1995. They can fight at all ranges- standup striking, standup grappling, ground grappling, ground striking. ANYONE who thinks there is less skill in the current MMA world hasn't been paying attention.

One of the guys who fights out of the school I go to is training with an Olympic wrestling coach, going to a local boxing gym daily, driving to a large city once a week to train Muay Thai with a world champion, is training at the jujutsu school I go to 3 times a week, AND is running his own school in another city. That's not counting the cardio and weight regime he is on. He would chop all of the guys who fought in the first 4 UFC's into liver. Royce excepted. And he hasn't even made it big yet. Guys who have made it big train even harder, because they can afford to train full-time.

Now compare that to most of the participants in the early UFC's, who trained a few times a week.

Rickson Gracie has a legend built up around him, from being the best of the Gracies. However, he's never, ever, fought world-class opponents in their prime in MMA. The best fighter he has fought was Mas Funaki, who was already wrecked physically by 8+ CONTINUOUS years of fighting for the Pancrase organization, and pro wrestling for many years before that. We will probably never find how good Rickson is, because he demands very large amounts of money to fight anyone, which puts off many promoters. It is alleged by some that Rickson has ducked Sakuraba. Rickson also claims a rather ridiculous record of 460-0, which includes fights in the ring, challenge matches, sport BJJ matches, judo competitions, and sombo competitions. This is in spite of the fact that Rickson is known to have lost at least one of the matches he is claiming on his record, in a sombo match.