PDA

View Full Version : Recent gang problem at local nightclub.


Samurai
February 21, 2002, 11:05 AM
A local nightclub in my hometown hosts "specialty" events on a semi-monthly basis. At the most recent event, titled "Goth Night," a friend of mine was accosted and severely beaten on the sidewalk in front of the club. The assailants were four ne'er-do-well kids, age 18 to 20, armed with bottles, chains, etc. They were probably packing heat, and one member of their "group" had recently been put away for murder 1.

My friend went to the police, and they were of absolutely no help. Noone here is of age to conceal.

Besides the obvious (stay away from the club), what can be done? Keep in mind, these kids are, at least mildly, psychotic. They are on every kind of drug known to man, and will probably not fear injury.

Joe Demko
February 21, 2002, 01:10 PM
"Stay away from the club," beyond being obvious, is also the best policy. No matter how much fun that club might seem, it can't be worth deliberately putting yourself in peril. When enough of their customers start staying away, management of the club will either close up sop or start providing better security outside.
If you're asking for advice on how to go there and defeat these pus-bags, I'm not going to give you any. I can't in good conscience coach you on how to seek out trouble.

Quartus
February 21, 2002, 01:45 PM
That pretty well says it, Gogol. Looking for trouble is a good way to find it. Going to places where people get beaten almost to death is looking for trouble.

Lemme recommend a good book from a man who is a well respected firearms instrutor, John Farnam. He does a good job of discussing the philosophy of self defense. The book is The Farnam Method of Defensive Handgunning and you can order it at

http://www.defense-training.com/





Hey, Golgol, I see those nanobots haven't done much harm yet. :D

C.R.Sam
February 21, 2002, 02:13 PM
Colgo and the Captain got it covered.

Go in harm's way and you will find harm.

Sam

fix
February 21, 2002, 02:30 PM
Since you seem to be looking for the ultimate ass kicking guide here, I'll give you a few reasons why that will not work and you should heed the advice of the other posters.

I am a fairly skilled unarmed combatant. Had these four young hoodlums tried the same with me, they would have found themselves in the hospital emergency room alongside me with broken fingers, dislocated shoulders, torn ears, and a myriad of other nasty injuries. That may sound cool, and it certainly might discourage them from engaging in similar behavior in the future, but the bottom line is...I AM IN A HOSPITAL!!!. The fact is, anyone who has come out of a real fight uninjured is either lucky, lying, or had an extreme advantage over their opponent (Randy White vs. Pauly Shore). Schoolyard fights are pretty harmless as kids aren't strong enough, or skilled enough to do real life threatening damage. There are exceptions and freak occurances of course. At some point in their teen years, young boys become grown men. With that comes added strength and coordination. Any, and I mean any, adult male is strong enough to kill you with his bare hands. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm lecturing you, but the adult world is a dangerous place. You'd be better served by hitting the track and becoming a world class sprinter than by hitting the dojo in search of a black belt.

TheeBadOne
February 21, 2002, 02:54 PM
What Golgo-13 said.

Trouble is a rare thing in that anyone who goes looking for it can find it.

Fred Hansen
February 21, 2002, 03:05 PM
So far all the advice given is right on the mark. I think you would have to look very hard at long term TFL members to find people that aren't very capable of protecting themselves, and others. You would probably have to look a million times harder to find any that would purposefully seek out trouble.

I would take the lesson one step further though, always remember your problem with the club, always remember your frustration with not being able to exercise your right to freely go where you will and every time there is an election, vote.

When you hear a politician talk about being in favor of laws, that by definition(criminals don't obey laws, that's what makes them criminals), only affect the innocent, ask yourself why you should support that person. If you hear one of these clowns talk about "root causes" of crime, like the old "He didn't have a pony, so he couldn't help himself when he knifed the kid at the club that did have a pony." Remember. And when it comes time, vote. Make a difference, become responsible for helping to make things better.

At your age you are always going to run into punks. it is the nature of the beast. Just try to be smart and careful, and realize that there is a direct cause and effect relationship between the policies of those that we vote for, and our quality of life. That you would have the good sense to ask for advice, shows that you are wise beyond your years. I wish you well.

BTW It would not hurt for you to seek out qualified self-defense instruction. It is always better to have a weapon, and not need it, than to need it and not have it. You have at least two with you at all times, your mind, and your body, learn how to use them. It saved my life once, it could do the same for you.

Samurai
February 21, 2002, 05:28 PM
Thank you all for your sage-like advice. I will advise my friend as per the information herein.

In regards to the club itself, I don't think the management is going to care very much about crime. I've never been to the place, myself (senior engineering students don't have time for that stuff), but judging from the part of town its in, it seems pretty low rent.

As far as returning to the club goes, I don't think he's going back. My concern is that at least one of these hoodlums hangs out the same local campus coffee bar that my friend frequents, and he believes they know each other. My friend seems afraid that they might attempt some further harm on him, to try to keep him quiet about the original attack. He has asked my advice, and I gave it to him: Don't go back. But, if a person is being stalked by multiple assailants over a period of many weeks, and the name of each of the stalkers is not known, what can he/she do about it?

TheeBadOne
February 21, 2002, 05:56 PM
Contact the local Police Dept. and make a full report, now. If the guy does hang at the coffee shop the Police and contact him there and ID him.

fix
February 21, 2002, 06:00 PM
I'm assuming your friend is into the Goth scene and looks the part. I hate to say this, but that's probably the reason he was attacked, and it's probably the reason the cops are not helping. It should not be that way. It's not fair. However, it's a fact that people who are "different" are treated differently. That's one of the consequences one must accept when "going against the flow". Life is not fair. No matter how wrong it is, that's the way it is. Get used to it. Have your friend go down to the Police department in normal attire and fill out a report. If he gets results, problem solved. If not, I don't know what to tell you. Honestly, even though I know it's wrong, occasionally I catch myself thinking of "goth" types as freaks and treating them with less respect than they deserve. It's human nature I suppose.

1goodshot
February 21, 2002, 06:05 PM
Go somewhere else and drink and have fun.why take the risk,unless you want to fight.

Gino
February 22, 2002, 10:52 AM
If he was really beaten that badly and the police did nothing, it's time to go up the chain of command. Have him compain to everyone in the dept. if he has to...

FanAttic
February 22, 2002, 11:32 AM
I must agree that FIX is right. If your buddy is into the Goth scene, then he must understand that being "counter-culture" means he misses out on the benefits of the culture he is trying to separate himself from. This is simply an explaination of reality, not an excuse for the punks or the police. Whether your buddy is Goth or not, this whole situation sucks! Hope things simmer down.

Tommytrauma
February 22, 2002, 05:18 PM
Some years back, a good friend of mine became involved in a scuffle outside a local watering hole. He was actually trying to defuse a situation between his younger brother and someone else, and was suddenly pushed from behind. He turned around and swung, breaking the pushers nose and front teeth. He was subsequently convicted of felony battery ( the felony part having something to do with the broken nose being "great bodily harm or something), and is now a convicted felon. Thus he cannot, among other things, possess a firearm, work in law enforcement, get a EMT or paramedic license, etc. His story has caused me to avoid trouble on several occasions. Just food for thought...

TheeBadOne
February 22, 2002, 06:54 PM
Tommy, good post. I advise people of the same thing, and I've seen several disregard it and end up in the same situation.

stinger
February 22, 2002, 07:28 PM
the number one rule in self-defense is to be prepared.
a close second is to avoid these situations at all costs.

if you are hanging around such a violent place then you should expect such things to happen. therefore, find a new place to hang out.

madgrad
February 22, 2002, 09:12 PM
If a club has Goth Night it's generally going to be very non violent. As a General rule most People in the Goth crowd are non violent.

The exceptions are:

1. If you the let a Punk crowd, or Skin Head crowd in the club. A fraction of Punks and Skin Heads (especially the Neo Nazi/ Aryan types) are very violent and often go into Goth Clubs looking to inflict harm on the Goth Population. They are usually kicked out by the Bouncers quick.

2. Sometimes due to the Gender Bending issues of the Goth Style. The clubs become the Target of gay bashers. Which is usually groups of young men in there teens to twentys, that go out and look for some either Gays, Goth's, or someone Perceived to be a threat against their manhood, and assualt them.

They usually wait outside the clubs, to beat up somebody as there leaving the club.

I think #2 is what happened to your friends as it seems to be a right of passage/sport for Texas teens. It was enough of a problem to put Houston into national headlines a couple of years ago (it was a murder of person, by well to do High School kids of a gay man that brought the spotlight).

The best rules I can come out with is:

To learn how to fight (Boxing, Mauy Thai,Krav Maga, with Judo, and BJJ mixed in). So if you can't run at least you can fight your way out to safety.

As Most people who commited these violent acts rarely know how to fight, and use aggression and Brute Strenghth to get what they want.

Be Observerant- watch a club before going in, watch the crowds, look whose hanging around, ask people about it, talk to the Bouncers, if you get a bad feeling about it, avoid it for the night and go somewhere else to go.

Alos the police issue pepper spray is very good just learn how to use it.

I hope this helps.

45Rookie
February 24, 2002, 11:01 AM
BIG RED FLAGS "specialty" events Plus "Goth Night," equals trouble. It seems like you have quite a bit of information on this group, "one member of their "group" had recently been put away for murder 1. " As for your friend he should quit playing victim and maybe think about helping LE put some of these guys away so it doesnt happen to anyone else. Was the incident documented, pictures of his injuries,etc. What was he doing in a shabby neigborhood.
Also is your friend in the Goth scene or did he happen to walk by at the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm not sure if those details were disclosed.

Samurai
February 26, 2002, 11:02 AM
My friend is not into the "Goth" scene, as much as he is into the "costume" scene. He does pro level mideval and renaissance re-enactment with a local guild, and generally enjoys going to these type of "costume" events. He is mildly overweight and has a gentle disposition. And, from what I understand of the situation, the attackers were simply low-income, low-class kids who were just looking for kicks in between drug hits.

I, personally, think he was nuts for being in that part of town at that time of night, and in hindsight, so does he. He has no plans to return.

The inccident was well-documented and reported to the authorities. The police advised my friend that he could waste six months working the legal system, sweating over this case, only to give these guys probation and a reason for retribution. Or, he could just let it go. They advised that he just let it go.

IMHO, that's the screwed up thing about the legal system pertaining to younger people. A group of 30-year-olds convicted of beating the crap out of some kid in the middle of the streets would go to jail for many years. Yet, such psychopathic behavior in young people is often dismissed as "rites of passage," or some other blowoff. When does a man become old enough to own up for the things he does? The Bible says age 12. The Law says age 18. Yet, Society says age 30. We're not afraid to send a 15 year old to the chair for murder, but we don't punish 20-year-olds to the extend of the law for non-fatal acts of violence. This is hypocricy, no?

Comments?

Joe Demko
February 27, 2002, 06:18 AM
What are you looking for? Absolution? Permission to go looking for these guys w/ a baseball bat or a gun? If you think the law is the problem then you need to change the law. Otherwise, do as you see fit, but be prepared to face the selfsame legal system you are now decrying. Life isn't like the movies, where badguys always get their comeuppance and there is closure. I think you need to let this go.

Samurai
February 27, 2002, 11:49 AM
Gave up on Absolution a long time ago. Now, I'm just looking for meaningful, intelligent conversation. Haven't found it yet.

There's nothing wrong with the law. It's written pretty well. It's something else; something to do with the way the law is carried out. I can't put my finger on it, and I can't put your finger on it either, if all you're going to do is jump on the forum and flame me for trying to spark up a discussion.

The question is, how is the judicial system evolving into a non-effective entity in today's society, and what changes can be made to correct this evolution?

Quartus
February 27, 2002, 01:14 PM
Just ignore Golgol, Samurai. He means no harm. The nanobots have been working on his brain, and it gives him bad days. ;)

(http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102035)

Your questions and concerns are valid, and you are quite right - it's not the way the laws are written, it's the selective enforcement that is the problem.

I suggest a clue is in what one of our Founding Fathers said. Our form of government is good for honest men, men of courage and integrity. It is inadequate for any other kind.

The 'any other kind' is the rule today, rather than the exception.