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View Full Version : Could the Shotgun be the ultimate survival/personal protection weapon?


pete80
July 7, 1999, 02:47 PM
What are your opinions? Is the shotgun the best all around defensive weapon in a survival scenario?

Coinneach
July 7, 1999, 03:15 PM
IMNSHO, yes.

Most scatterguns have easily replaceable barrels, so you can switch between shot and slugs, depending upon the situation. You can also shoot rifled slugs through a smooth bore, or shot through a rifled bore (with some loss of pattern).

Only drawback I can see to using a shotgun in a survival/defense scenario are its size relative to a handgun.

[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited July 07, 1999).]

CMOS
July 7, 1999, 04:01 PM
Yes indeed. The 12ga shotgun cartridge is a highly lethal package.

There's an old saying, "nobody brings a handgun to gunfight".

I concurr with Coinneach about the gun size. However the available firepower more than makes up for the size and ammo carrying capacity - IMO.

CMOS (happy Benelli M1 Super 90 owner :))

fubsy
July 7, 1999, 04:27 PM
I tend to believe so.......
Now it would depend on what type of survival your talking about, but it exells there---with slugs it could even be effective against a bear--at least thats what Im understanding.
the self defense limitations are range, the shotgun has a limited range, the ammo is heavy, although there is a variety of ammo available---now if you dont have to carry a variety of different types of ammo its very versatile...fubsy.

Rob Pincus
July 7, 1999, 05:05 PM
Is there any doubt??

Rob62
July 7, 1999, 08:52 PM
Well Rob, there is some doubt with me.

(I guess i must be really bored and trying to stir up controversy).

fusby brings up some excellent points; heavy ammo and limited range , just a few of a shotguns limitations. How about don't hold a lot of shells, what, 7 max for most, even with extended tubes. Personally I love the shotgun, it is definitely a *very* versatile weapon, arguably _the_ most versatile. But I think that to answer the topic question each individual has to define their individual needs for personal protection/survival. If I had to limit my guns to 3, I would choose a .357 revolver, a .22RF rifle and a pump 12ga shotgun. My fourth choice would be a rifle in .223 or .308. But I know that I couldn't pick one over the other without first having a thorough understanding of the situation I was getting into.
Regards,
Rob

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It's amazing what a large group of stupid people can accomplish.
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Rob Pincus
July 7, 1999, 09:13 PM
"...ultimate defensive ... survival weapon..."

Range with a slug can be extended to over 100 yards (smoothbore). Any shot beyond 100 yards, to my mind, has a hard time being truly defensive. At least in the sense of "I will die if I don't act now.. and running/moving ain't an option."
(no this really isn't the thread to take that discussion any further...)

In a survival situation, almost all game can be stalked or lured to within effective range of a slug, if not buckshot.

I think we need to differentiate between "combat" weapon and "defensive" weapon. In combat, Capacity, wieght and range would be mch more important issues to me, but in what I consider to be true defense or survival circumstances, I would prefer to have the shotgun and I would recommend the shotgun to others.

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-Essayons

Blue Jays
July 7, 1999, 09:56 PM
Hi Pete-

Do I have handguns? Sure, I do.
Do I have shotguns? Sure, I do.

Where do I reach if the dog is barking her head off at 3:30 a.m.? I go to the shotgun.

We've been batting-about capacity constraints in this and other posts, but the fact-of-the-matter is that your "average" goblin, breaking-in to steal stereos and VCRS, would freeze in his tracks after looking at a leveled shotgun being held by a confident homeowner. No shots fired.

If things could get ugly and extended, just throw a pistol in a hip holster as a backup and begin your "negotiations" with the SG.

Regards to all,

~ Blue Jays ~

sLap
July 7, 1999, 09:59 PM
Ok you'll all get ****** at me but in a true survival state I would trade off all my firearms but my 10/22.Some of my reasoning is.It can take small game down to a rat while leaving some meat and drop a deer at the same time. Noise leavel every one in town won't hear the shot and it can be shot indoors with out blowing your ears. Amo is light,cheap and there are mags up to 100 rounds for it. Kids to older people can shoot it. Cleaning it can be put off for longer time than a shotgun or center fire. They will shoot true head shots are easy on small game. It does fall short in some when targeting over 100 yds but I can live with that.

Grayfox
July 7, 1999, 10:06 PM
In a combat/defensive situation I'd go for the shotgun.

The survival situation, to me at least, suggests a sort of lost in the wilderness, gotta hunt to live sort of thing. Here I'd prefer a good .22RF carbine.

Rob Pincus
July 7, 1999, 10:49 PM
Excellent Alternative, SLap. In a survival situation, I;d be plenty happy with a .22, if not happier than I would be with a shotgun, when it came right down to it..

But for a defensive situation, I'd feel severely undergunnned with a .22.

Jonnie Goodboy Tyler
July 8, 1999, 01:32 AM
My choice for "best all around defensive weapon in a survival scenario (against humans)" is an AR-15 with 30 rd mag and 55 gr FMJ's.

The .223 rd will penetrate body armor, excellent on humans, low recoil, longer range than shotguns, and penetrates less less dry wall than a 9mm rd.

When I shoot multiple targets, I'm much faster and more accurate with my AR-15 than with my pump action 12 ga.

My wife could handle the AR-15, but the recoil from the 12 ga is too much. She may have to help out in the "survival situation".

The only downside I see is the extremely loud muzzle blast.

Since I live in So CA, I don't have to worry about running into any bears.


Jonnie (No, I am not an AR15.com regular)

dZ
July 8, 1999, 04:53 PM
prolly the best survival arm would be a 20 guage / .223 drilling

turkey on the wing
20 guage
turkey on the foot .223
http://gunshop.com/jmar/plus.gif

the crossfire is kinda neat but pricey
its a pump 12 & a .223

8.5 pounds
4 shots of 12 5 rounds of .223
http://www.crossfirellc.com /

dZ




[This message has been edited by dZ (edited July 08, 1999).]

Dorsai
July 9, 1999, 11:29 PM
I used to play this game in my head. If I could only grab 1 item, what would it be? What about 2 items? 3, 4, ...
I guess I've defined my preferences.
1. Randall No. 14 knife.
2. Lee-Enfield Carbine .303 and a bandolier of ammo.
3. Handgun, probably G34.

A friend once explained his love for a good rifle. Command your environment. I like my shotgun and my handguns, but when the SHTF, I want to reach out and touch someone and the shotgun just doesn't have the range. My preference, you are as justified in your own. I guess that's why "Quigley Down Under" is one of my favorite movies.

------------------
Dorsai
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys.
-- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Lucas
July 13, 1999, 01:28 AM
pete80:

Well, I could be in a gun and knife room where everything is fully loaded and easily accessible, and if I felt the need to defend myself with arms, I would go straight to the riot shotgun. No question in my mind, none.

As for survival, I have no doubt that I could feed and protect those whom I've elected to aid--including myself, with a 12ga shotgun. And I know that I'm not the best hunter/provider thats ever lived. Shotguns help to minimize the required skill needed to survive, and if I'm not available, someone else could easily pick up the shotgun and (effectively) do just as well.

Yes, I really do like handguns, rifles, and shotguns--but if my butt is on the line in a defensive/survival situation--I'd really like to be holding a shotgun.

By the way, the visual intimidation is great, but I think the sound of the slide action shotgun being chambered (a sound I believe just about everyone is familiar with) is just about as good a defense as is firing the weapon.

Pete
July 15, 1999, 02:49 PM
Dorsai:

I would drop the knife to number three. While knifes are much more useful than guns (ever try to cut a steak with a Glock? :) ) In a SHTF situation, you'll have better luck finding a knife or a knife substitute somewhere than a spare rifle. Just my personal feelings.

Hal
July 17, 1999, 04:55 AM
For defense yes.
For survival no. In a true survival situation, I suspect the best use for a gun would be as a signal device. I think you would find that to depend on hunting skills to feed youself would leave you skinny and hungry, while your fish/plant/bug eating counterpart would be somewhat more well fed. Just MHO, but for survival, I would sacrifice the weight of a gun and ammo anyday for a roll of dental floss or Fireline and a couple of knives and a handfull of fishhooks.

Take a nice easy walk in the woods and see how much game is out there. I did, and was amazed at the lack of game, even in a protected area. The only thing in abundance were geese. You wouldn't have to shoot them, they are tame enough that you could lure them close by throwing scraps of paper on the ground in front of you and grabbing one as it came to eat the "bread".

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owl
July 18, 1999, 01:50 PM
The shotgun is with out a doubt the best survival/personal weapon. The best part is shotgun shells are everywhere, And relatively inexpensive. birdshot to buckshot 2 3/4" to 3 1/2". Come to think of it, I think I'll buy one!

Pete
July 23, 1999, 11:49 AM
Hal: I wasn't talking about being stranded in the woods. In that case I would agree with the knife. The scenario which I see as more likely would be some type of urban unrest due to y2k malfunctions, lack of food, bank runs, etc. In that case, even if I were hungry, I'd still want the gun, because I can find a knife anywhere, but good luck finding a gun to protect yourself during a riot. I think that we are referring to two different things. In the woods, by myself, I would rather have the knife. But I'd still probably starve. I'm a city boy :).

Hal
July 24, 1999, 03:09 AM
Pete: It's good to discuss these kinds of things. Gets the old wheels turning. :)
When the topic of survival comes up, most people think in terms of stranded in the woods, remote location, yada, yada. Your point of urban, or even suburban survival is a valid one for a lot of us. I am a suburban boy, not city or rural, but close to both and a part of neither. We have more thanour share of critters, skunks,groundhogs, deer, geese, etc. I can't really say I view any as a reliable source of food, BUT they may pose a danger. Same with feral house pets. When times get tough, a lot of low life turn the family pets loose to fend for themselves. It happens all the time. Some a$$hole takes fido, puts him in the car, drives to the nearest park and drops him off. In a TSHTF scenerio, feral house pets may be the single most dangerous thing anyone can face. A pack of semi wild dogs is a definate force to be reckoned with. I was "jumped" by 2 feral dogs once while camping. It ain't a picnic. They had enough fear to stay a good distance away, there were only 2 of them, and they weren't at the desperate go for broke stage yet. They pinned me down pretty good for an hour. One kept my attention while the other circled around behind. I had a means of escape, my car was there and all I had to do was get in, but I didn't want my tent and supplies tore up. I was in a State park, so it was a no shoot area. If there had been 3 or more of them, I would have been in deep do-do. Not a life threatening do-do, but I imagine a series of unpleasant shots and such would have followed. It was only when other people happened by that the dogs took off. Once the other people left, the dogs returned. A pump shotgun would have been a lot of use in that scenerio, especially if there were more dogs. In a time of disrupted medical services, it would be a whole different ball-game. Thanks for gettin the grey matter going.

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dZ
July 25, 1999, 02:16 PM
if Y2k gets that bad,
all i can say is
time to wok the doggies!

yum!
gladly aserting my place at the top of the food chain

;)
dZ

K80Geoff
July 27, 1999, 11:03 PM
Let's not forget, most of the settlers of this country carried shotguns. They could feed the family, protect them from hostiles and were cheap and easy to get ammo for when this country was being built.

If you want to see some nice drillings check out the Krieghoff website:
www.Krieghoff.de (http://www.Krieghoff.de)

Futo Inu
July 28, 1999, 04:56 PM
Hal, that "Want to feel you age?" link made me realize the liklihood of missing my grab for the goose. Plus I've never had luck fishing with even the finest equipment. I'll take a rifle for survival (I know, the original post was about "defensive survival", and now we've gotten into "survival only", but...)

Hal
July 29, 1999, 05:54 AM
Futo Inu, I hate that link myself. I get depressed thinking about the articles of clothing I have that are older than so many celebrites. OTOH, I am younger than Jaclyn Smith ;). I would still pick a fishing line/knife over a rifle. I ain't a great fisherman, actually even though I am an avid fisherman. I can't stand fish, but I see a lot more fish than I do game. Same goes for bugs.


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Want to feel your age?Check it out. http://web.superb.net/boy/age1.html

Futo Inu
July 29, 1999, 03:08 PM
Hal, I LOVE eating fish, and certainly more than bugs (though I've done it to get attention as a kid). However, I think I could shoot a fish and recover it (something I've often wanted to do, but darn those lake patrols) easier than I could catch a fish on ANY line.

dZ
July 31, 1999, 10:30 PM
when one needs to survive on fish one nets the suckers...
its not fair, or legal, but weirs work great
shooting fish attracts unwanted attention
the water refraction angle makes a fish kinda hard to target too.
:)
dZ

Joe Portale
August 1, 1999, 02:01 PM
Just as a side note, for those who wish to fish with firearms. When I was a kid, my buddies and I would either make our own our buy M-80 fire crackers (the water proof type) and roll them in glue and BB's. We would light them up and drop them into the water. BOOM, SPLASH and we would pick up the floating fish. It was hard to explain to my dad the buckshot in the trout at the dinner table.



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Joe Portale
Sonoran Sidewinder
Tucson, Arizona territory

Blue Jays
August 3, 1999, 11:39 PM
Hi Joe-

Do you think the percussion alone from an M-80 detonated underwater would be enough to harvest fish in a pinch?

Sure would be easier to carry a few waterproofed M-80s when hiking in the backcountry rather than bringing fishing gear you may or may not use!

What are your thoughts?

~ Blue Jays ~

Hal
August 4, 1999, 04:01 AM
After last night's large helping of "Humble Pie" I figure I better find a book on 101 ways to prepare bugs. I tried my hand at sporting clays, and if what they say about sporting clays being as close to hunting as you can get is true, I am going to be one hungry TSHTF'er.

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Want to feel your age?Check it out. http://web.superb.net/boy/age1.html

Katrina Guy
July 11, 2008, 10:38 PM
A lot of discussion on this topic of survival from both wilderness and urban sides of the fence. Well I watch a lot of Survival Man and love Tom Hanks in Castaway, all around regarding wilderness survival I'd want a shotgun, a 12 gauge can still get you a squirrel, albeit maybe a shreaded meat version of one (survival means just that, whatever it takes and whatever's left to eat), to a flying bird, to a wild hot and everything inbetween (depending on what shells one has with them, to a degree).
I recently purchased a Remington Home Defense model and picked up one box of number 6 shot and a couple boxes of buck shot. Info gathered from here aided in my choice of Remington vs Mossberg, thanks to all for your help there.
I live in a big city (Houston now), not much wilderness here, however I did come from New Orleans, staying a couple of weeks after Katrina. Which is why, coming out of that survival situation, a wanted to include a pump 12 gauge in my defense group. Some one here made a very very good point, urban survival, where anything goes, and that is the threat of wild dogs, and the pack mentality that goes with that. Hard up hungry pack dogs aren't something to just easily blow off as non threatening. Neither or packs of roaming wild people hard up for food, water, drugs, and just overall ****** off in a lawless state. New Orleans had packs of wild dogs prior to the storm, displaced storm doggys aren't much of a threat and are used to people being nice to them etc and are pretty much just in need of food, still I'd hate to have a big mean dog on my front porch trying to get in sizing me up concluding that I was "takeable".
In a back up against the wall situation with possibly more then one assailant, I'd feel more comfortable with the knock down power of a 12 gauge with buck shot then a Ruger ranch rifle or something. A lot was learned from Katrina as was learned from the L.A. Riots some time back, however as time moves on people forget what happens to a metropolitan city when doo doo hits the fan! It's pretty much every man for himself, sometimes bans of neigbors holding a fort down, sometimes , as was the case often times in Katrina's aftermath, you were all alone, and I mean ALL alone, brother you had better make sure you were armed and well armed. I had at the time a Colt .45 govt model (I still have it) and felt comfortable but wished I had a pump 12 gauge. As it turned out I never need to fire a shot, either as a warning shot or in defense. I mention warning shot, yes, I would fire a 12 gauge or a .45 into my ceiling in the case of looters which although scum, are typically not armed, this would also depend on obvious circumstances, day time vs in the dark night time, etc etc.
I think a short barrel 12 gauge like my Remington would be my overall choice whether I found myself in another Katrina or found myself deep in the woods.

ALL that said, when something goes bump in the night, I reach for my Colt .45 hands down! I only got the Remington for civil unrest, i.e. riots and another Katrina type situation. The difference being, for those who never found themselves in a Katrina type event, something goes bump in the night you reach for an arm, under Katrina, you live with your gun in your holster including sleeping with it, and if you had a shotgun that too would be at your side 24 hours a day. Huge difference. I guess it would equate almost to you being out in the woods camping say, yes your hand gun or rifle would probably be close by while you're roasting marshmellows and drinking beer, hear a bear or a wolf howling and I bet you don't even get up to take a leak without at least a handgun in your back pocket.

GOOD TOPIC!

Slopemeno
July 12, 2008, 12:15 AM
I read an article in SOF back in the 80's where the author (Peter Kokalis?) called the Remington 870 "voted most likely to save your life".

mpage
July 12, 2008, 07:20 AM
fusby brings up some excellent points; heavy ammo and limited range , just a few of a shotguns limitations. How about don't hold a lot of shells, what, 7 max for most, even with extended tubes.

That's absolutely true. I'll also add "limited penetration" as well (referring to buckshot, not slugs).


Bulky ammo
Limited range
Low mag capacity
Low penetration


I'd say it's tops as far as survival goes, but not all-around defense.

dabigguns357
July 12, 2008, 09:13 AM
asumming that the crap will hit the fan in an uban setting,i grab my rifled slug barrel 12 gauge and my clip on belt which has my 357 attached to it along with a 25 shotgun shell patch.I can clip the belt around my waist and exit the bedroom if needed.Now if the electric is still on then i watch my security cameras on tv in my bedroom.Heck even my wife has a 410 and snubbie that she shoots well.So yea in my opinion i think my shotgun will be there before anything else.:)

.45&TKD
July 21, 2008, 07:53 PM
I'm starting to think that the Pump Shotgun may be the perfect trunk long gun.

Is there anyplace that has Rem 870 Riot/Police surplus cheap?

I have only one shottie now. An 870 HD Express that I like. But if I were to buy another I would want one with more character and wood.

jmr40
July 21, 2008, 08:45 PM
This thread was started over 9 years ago! But since it is active again the last gun I would want to give up would be a good 22. For survival I can take any game with it I can with a shotgun. Maybe not legally or ethically but in a SHTF situation that is the last of my worries. An 870 with a variety of ammo would be my 2nd choice.

stormyone
July 25, 2008, 01:55 AM
if Y2k gets that bad,
all i can say is
time to wok the doggies!

Whew! I'm glad all that Y2K stuff wasn't that bad.
Is this a new record for resurrected thread?

Mannlicher
July 27, 2008, 04:42 PM
Could well be the oldest thread opened in a long time. :)

But to answer him, nope. Way too many limitations. Ammo is expensive, heavy, bulky and has limited range. It reloads slowly, and if you have a full load up the tube, and need a slug instead of Buckshot, its too late.
No single weapon is the 'ulitimate'.

King Ghidora
July 27, 2008, 05:21 PM
I don't agree at all that a shotgun is the best defensive weapon. It all depends on the circumstances. If you were a Korean grocer in the middle of Rodney King riot day do you think you could have saved your store with an 870? I don't. That's a defensive situation and the only real answer to that problem is an assault type rifle IMO. An SKS will do just fine if it's one that readily accepts high capacity mags. An AK-47 might be better because mags are easier to swap out but not that much easier if you practice with your SKS. Not all SKS models are created equal when it comes to swapping mags though. Some have feed problems with removable mags. The best choice for this is a Norinco. So my specific answer would be a Norinco SKS and yes I do own one just for that reason. I went out and bought one right after the riots.

I also have an 870. They're great against a limited number of BG's but if you have a gang problem or you're right in the middle of a huge riot situation and you're on the wrong side of the rioters then nothing will replace a high capacity, relatively high power rifle. That's why the vast majority of army personel carry them. You can hold off 50 rioters with a good rifle. At most you can hold off 5 BG's with a shotgun.

I have several weapons. They all serve a purpose. But if gangs / rioters / terrorists invade my neighborhood I'll be in a defensive position with my trusty SKS and the horde of ammo I have for it. If you're good enough shot you will be able to discourage even a determined attack all by yourself. I'll give the 870 to my wife and I'll be high and barricaded with an escape route in case it's needed.

SilentHitz
July 27, 2008, 06:02 PM
Let's not forget, most of the settlers of this country carried shotguns. They could feed the family, protect them from hostiles and were cheap and easy to get ammo for when this country was being built. Exactly! Most were not wealthy at all, and if they could afford just one gun, it was usually a shotgun.

Good for a wide variety of game, as well as protection. If I could just have one today...it would be a 12 ga. shotty

Wayward_Son
July 27, 2008, 06:46 PM
What happens if we replace 12 gauge with 20 guage? Does the Remmy 870 20 guage become a better "all around" multi-purpose butt-saver? I'm thinking in regards to both saving your butt in a defense situation as well as being able to take smaller game like rabbits with less wasted meat.

OLNfan
February 27, 2009, 10:33 PM
The shotgun is by far the best choice for surivial. A doubel barrel shotgun o/u you can easily find the shotgun/rifle combo. 12gage would be the only shotgun caliber I would consider. and for the rifle 30-30 would be the smallest caliber I would consider. Or you can just buy a shotgun with a rifled slug barrel, so you can easiliy switch between birdshot,buckshot,slug.

Gats Italian
February 28, 2009, 12:35 AM
I have assault rifles.
I have .22lr rifles.

If the SHTF tomorrow, I'm grabbing my Mossberg 590A1 and my Beretta PX4.

This "ammo shortage" has been most instructive.
I couldn't find assault rifle ammo, though I have plenty. The .22lr has been hit or miss in bulk.

Shotgun shells have remained abundant. Even if I had to use 3" steel shot hunting loads for geese against a human, at least they could be found.

Yes, the ammo is heavy. That just makes me more judicious about what I am going to shoot. A mix of rifled slugs for range, buck for inside 50 yards, and a few game shells, and I am GTG. I pair a "hi-cap" 9mm with shotguns just in case a volume of fire is needed for whatever reason.

The simple fact of the matter is barring the complete collapse of society, there will most likely never be a justifiable 100+ yard shooting that will not come back to haunt when authority is restored. Since engagements/encounters will likely be at hailing distance, the shotgun is very viable. Slugs for distance, buck for

Though not quite as competent in a firefight, a combat shotgun can be made to hold its own with smart shooting and tactics. If hunting is the order of the day, it's more versatile than any rifle.

If the shotgun weren't good enough for combat, the Winchester M1897, Winchester M12, the Ithaca M37, the Remington M870, the Mossberg 590A1, and the Benelli M4 would have never seen time in the hands of the US Armed Forces.

kmrcstintn
February 28, 2009, 01:54 AM
yep and yep; working on a Mossberg 500 based combo right now; it came with 28" interchangable choke field barrel & 24" fully rifled sabot slug barrel w/ cantilever scope mount; having an older polychoke barrel cut-n-cleaned for a defense barrel; pondering adding Mossberg's .50 cal #209 primer in-line muzzleloader barrel next year

www.tacticalshotgun.ca excellent info!!!

Invalid Zero
February 28, 2009, 03:46 AM
Holy crap this is the oldest thread bump I've ever seen ever. Almost 10 years!

rantingredneck
February 28, 2009, 03:55 AM
It proves 2 things.

1) Some people do know how to use the search function (kudos)
2) Still a valid topic.

That said, yes I agree that the 12 gauge shotgun is the most effective survival firearm. Versatility for game large and small as well as effective self defense.

zippy13
February 28, 2009, 11:06 AM
Folks don't change much. It's interesting to see how the OP's general term "defensive weapon in a survival scenario" becomes very specific in the responses. Many think of a "survival scenario" as being set alone in the wilderness while others see themselves defending their homes from lawless hordes. Some include long range capability as an attribute of a defensive weapon. Katarina Guy (this thread's reviver), adds the survival stew of a catastrophic natural disaster to the collection of scenarios.

While possibly fascinating the practitioners of psychoanalysis, each individually assumed scenario may intrinsically favor and thus define its best defensive weapon. If there is a lowest common denominator across the various scenarios, I'm certain it's the shotgun.

With a myriad of survival scenarios conceivable, the best defensive weapon available seems to be a quick and experienced human mind. The ability to quickly analyze a situation and make the appropriate decisions may be the key to your survival. Let's hope this thread gives each of us positive a virtual experience and a little brain food.

My 2-cents worth,
Pete

hogdogs
February 28, 2009, 11:29 AM
IMHO There is no finer device for SD/HD survival gear... Heck with a shotgun I can gain food shelter and clothing... warding off critters with any number of legs is but a minor use of a shotgun in a survival mode.
A .22 and a shot gun of either 20 or 12 gauge will support life for a long time...
But who here knows which plants provide the most water? And did you know there is at least one drop of water between each vertebrae of a fish?
Food (or water) for thought!
Brent

jmr40
February 28, 2009, 09:43 PM
I would rather have a good 22 for a survival gun. 500 rounds of 22 LR ammo will fit into a box smaller than 25 rounds of 12 guage ammo. I can hunt any small game with the 22 and make accurate shots at longer ranges. At close range a precision shot to the brain will take down most large game.

I'd rather have something larger for self defense or have a handgun in a centerfire also. But limited to 1 gun for survival give me an accurate 22.

Ryndisher
February 28, 2009, 09:59 PM
Absolutely unless you can get your hands on a tank.:D

Tatsumi67
February 28, 2009, 10:02 PM
I think this has been discussed before.

A good shotgun can do whatever you want.

You could put slugs through a smoothbore [rifled slugs]

and you could probably put shot through a rifled barrel with some pattern loss but it would still come out of the barrel.

Thats why my next purchase will be wither an SU-16C or Mossberg 500 Persauder.

shooter01
March 1, 2009, 08:40 AM
Here's a tip - for any survival scenario but especially one involving extended survival in a wilderness setting, and providing one is available, it may be that a good drilling or combination gun preferably with a suitable larger calibre rifle and 12 gauge 3" chamber combo in side by side or superposed arrangement will be as close to ideal as you could get.
Obviously there will be some compromise between firepower and magazine capacity etc. [there is no such thing as a one size fits all solution anyway] should there be some sort of "conflict resolution" issues or engagements. But for most other situations, including food and animal defense, this should work nicely. In addition of course, to the fact that such designs are usually quite well built and durable.

L_Killkenny
March 1, 2009, 09:58 AM
I just love it when a @#$&%^%$ brings a post back from the dead. This was started in 1999, brought back once last July and brought back a second time now. My lord, how many pages does someone have to dig thru to find this stuff..................

hogdogs
March 1, 2009, 10:29 AM
killkenny, It very well may have been a %^$#@***& (as you so eloquently put it) used the %&&**()_&^%% search feature which so many here curmudgeonly suggest folks use before making duplicate threads.
Too bad a quality thread coming back from a near 10 year nap to live again is a burr under yer blanket...
Brent

zippy13
March 1, 2009, 11:40 AM
I'm with Brent on this one. This thread is old, but still valid. The OP was when Clinton was in office and pre-nine-eleven. Much has changed since then and much remains the same. The fresh opinions and comments are as valid as the original ones from 1999.
Katarina Guy and I have had differing opinions in the past, but in this case I think he did the correct thing in resurrecting an old thread instead of starting a duplicate. It's nice to know that some folks are using the archives -- if I see one more thread on "what size shells go in my 870?" I'm fearful my 'roids will flare up.
Pete

Playboypenguin
March 1, 2009, 11:43 AM
...I would not want to rely solely on a shotgun for hunting and it is pretty hard to conceal a shotgun in my pants in a bad neighborhood. :)

There is no ultimate weapon.

SMiller
March 1, 2009, 07:59 PM
A tactical shotgun is as good as it gets! AR's and other long guns are great, but YOU and I are not out looking for a fight or engaging in one, we are in our homes and keeping others out while waiting for the law to show up, are we going to exit the house and engage, im not, good way to get smoked coming out of the house, my SPX holds 7+1 and puts them out as fast as I can pull the trigger, tons of boxes of ammo, loads very fast, should be able to keep several people out of the house and reloads can be done while staying on target while still havingone chambered and finger on trigger. With Federal low recoil LE ammo I still have nice groups pretty far out so even window shooting I am covered.

geologist
March 1, 2009, 10:09 PM
It is as long as you have practiced firing it realistically, loading it and clearing jams. If you are 100% comfortable with using it then yes, it's at the top of the list against unarmored opponents.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/pbgeologist/IMG_5500e.jpg

Chuckusaret
March 2, 2009, 09:31 AM
Give me a shotgun, makes a great house to house combat weapon. Our survival war will be within the towns and cities not in the woods. Weight!!! in the heat of battle or in a self defense situation weight would be meaningless. We used shotguns in Nam on patrols and in the villages. Never thought about about the weight of my weapon or equipment, thought mostly about staying alive.

dgludwig
March 4, 2009, 03:53 PM
One gun for any situation and the situation is never predictable? My answer is a well-made drilling (Merkel, Sauer or their ilk). Deciding on the best combination (two 12 ga. barrels above a 30-06; a .223/.308/20 gauge set-up or maybe one of the barrels should be a .22 rimfire) would be the hardest and most interesting thing to decide.

Cerick
March 4, 2009, 10:26 PM
If someone comes kickin in my door, I know what i'd want to grab. For an unarmored opponent, the 17 rounds that fits in and on this thing has to do the trick. If it doesn't, then I probably shouldn't have been by myself or there in the first place.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e45/dutchmaster151/Picture350.jpg
For survival, the weight of the ammo would be the only drawback I could see, so a lighter round might top it.

BTW sorry I post so many pics of this gun but I love it so much!

Nnobby45
March 4, 2009, 10:33 PM
What are your opinions? Is the shotgun the best all around defensive weapon in a survival scenario?

Of course not. When someone can kill you with a rifle from well beyond the range of even your slugged gun, and you're effectively unarmed, then the answer should be obvious.

The shotgun may be the best tool within it's range, but you said all around survival weapon. How many shot shells can you carry? Now, how many 5.56 or .223?

Not sure what you mean. SD could be one thing, survivial could be another.

inSight-NEO
March 4, 2009, 10:47 PM
"Practically speaking..." yes. "Ideally speaking (vs an assault type rifle)..." no.

Given close quarters, Id take a shotgun any day of the week; all restrictions and considerations aside, Id opt for an assault rifle, although I hate to admit it as I prefer shotguns.

rantingredneck
March 4, 2009, 10:48 PM
Cerick,

Is that a pie pan I see hiding under the coats?? :D



Nnobby,

Yes, limited range is definitely a drawback. As is ammo weight as Cerick pointed out. If your survival is dependent on getting into (or out of) long range firefights then a shotgun definitely is lacking. If, though, your survival is dependent on eating what you can kill, whether it be game large, small, or on the wing, then a shotgun definitely has its advantages.

I guess it all depends on the meaning of the term "survival".

mr kablammo
March 5, 2009, 12:01 AM
I gotta go with the versatility and power being postives that overcame perceived negatives of size, weight of ammo, and range. When you need power and you need it here and now the shotgun is the go-to piece.

Does anyone else remember the hilarious post about the guy who was shooting dragon's breath rounds at the range? He took the shotgun home and forgot to switch shells out. Later that night an intruder busted in and his wife cracked one off on the intruder as he was going back out the window!!

Cerick
March 5, 2009, 09:52 AM
That is a pie plate. Buffalo wings are great!:D Surviving in the desert you might want a .22. In the boreal forest of canada, where there are big predators, even though your restricted in the ammo you can carry, a .22 is better off used to shoot yourself if a brown bear charges you. Shotgun ammo can be very heavy. My 870 with 17 rounds on it weighs quite a bit.

Boats
March 5, 2009, 11:42 AM
Of course not. When someone can kill you with a rifle from well beyond the range of even your slugged gun, and you're effectively unarmed, then the answer should be obvious.

It's not so obvious because the vast majority of people out there cannot shoot effectively even at ranges as low as 200m. With practice, and especially with rifle sighted shotguns, I have been able to routinely slug gongs out to 200m and am working on getting out to 300, though that is approaching random chance judging from preliminary efforts.

Additionally, is someone with a 300-400m AK or a 600m AR effectively unarmed when an only halfway decently practiced shooter armed with a surplus Garand, K-31, kar98k, Finn M39 Mosin, or a SMLE, etc., or an M1A, FAL, AR-10 and many common hunting bolt guns can almost effortlessly tag them at 800m? The fact of the matter is that absent a total collapse of civilization, no one who wishes to remain free or alive for very long is going to be taking 100+m shots on ANYONE. It's unjustifiable, save for the narrow circumstance of someone opening up on you first from great distance, which again, is exceedingly unlikely. Even in military engagements where combatants are looking to fight one another, most encounters are fought at fairly short distances. This finding was the entire rationale behind the adoption of intermediate round assault rifles.

The shotgun may be the best tool within it's range, but you said all around survival weapon. How many shot shells can you carry? Now, how many 5.56 or .223?

300 rounds of 5.56 weighs in at around 9lbs. The equivalent 7.62x51 is nearly 14lbs. Nine pounds of 00Buck and/or 1oz rifled slugs is equivalent to about 100 shots. I wouldn't even try to carry that many in a "normal" crisis. Sixty rounds was the typical patrol load for the shotgun in the service, which back in the day meant five additional shell pouches. For boarding ships, we had seven in the shotgun and two or three of the filled 12 round pouches in reserve. When the Marines were training us on the M870 in Pearl Harbor back in mid 80s, among the comments from leatherneck lifers who had used the shotgun in Vietnam was their opinion that suppressive fire was a tactic with a rifle but also one that came along with every shotgun blast. The enemy absolutely hated being on the receiving end of the shotgun. Though some of the Marines didn't like the shotgun, even some of the critics said that in an ambush or clearing structures there was nothing else they'd rather have.

That split remains today.

I am of the opinion that the shotgun is what you can make of it. Buck shot's range limitations used to be a pretty severe one on the shotgun's overall combat capability, but the rifled slug has changed the game for the shotgun, making it capable of tagging targets out to 200m and absolutely ruining anything unarmored inside of 100m and still allowing its owner to take birds on the wing by just switching the load.

A competent shotgunner with a well thought out selection of gun and loads is probably capable of fighting off the vast majority of the criminal riff-raff out there. By that same token, it doesn't matter much what the individual has if he is going up against a squad of professional soldiers, the odds of winning would be poor.

Lastly, a shotgun will not likely attract too much negative attention from any passing authorities during a crisis. They still look too PC.:D

dgludwig
March 6, 2009, 02:09 AM
Lastly, a shotgun will not likely attract too much negative attention from any passing authorities during a crisis. They still look too PC.

Well, not some of the "tacticool" shotguns I've seen on these pages! ;)

armsmaster270
March 6, 2009, 02:39 AM
For pure survival I would take both, you can always leave one at your base depending on use at the time. Actually if my wife packed her 1911 on her hip and carried the Mini 14 I could carry my pistol, a 10-22 on a sling and carry the 12 GA all bases covered.

Cerick
March 6, 2009, 03:00 AM
I know my shotgun is the quintessential "tacticool" shotgun, but I really dont care much. I actually use it, hunting, range or whatever else and if i get killed in a gunfight because of the accessories on my gun then being tacticool is a bad thing. otherwise, I like the way it looks and it works for me.

kmrcstintn
March 6, 2009, 03:15 AM
pt II of my response...couldn't edit since too much time has passed :confused:

mentioned the Mossberg 500 combo (1 platform sharing several barrels for multiple purposes) which might be a bit cumbersome if on the run, but I wanted to illustrate how versatile a pump shotgun receiver can be (I was blown away to find out that a person who owns a Mossberg 500 can convert it into an inline muzzleloader :eek:)

if I had to keep 1 shotgun in a single configuration and do multiple things with a single mounted barrel, I would grab my Benelli Nova (matte & synthetic) w/ its collection of chokes, even with its 28" field barrel (way too long for defense work in tight spaces)...

modified choke & 3" #BB steel --goose; modified choke & 3" #2 steel--duck; modified choke & #00 buckshot--defense & deer where buckshot is legal for deer hunting (not my neck of the woods); improved cylinder choke & Brenneke KO slugs--deer & bear; improved cylinder choke & common sized bird shot (#6, #7 1/2, #8)--bunnies, squirrels, flying game birds; XX-full choke & 3" #5 turkey load--turkey; full choke could be used for turkey, buck shot, and tighter patterns w/ bird shot

most likely I would be wearing my Ruger Security Six w/ 4" barrel (.357 mag) or my Ruger GP100 w/ 6" barrel (.357 mag) on my hip as a secondary weapon

ncpatriot
March 6, 2009, 03:28 AM
I'm no expert but I guess the 12 or 20 guage pump shotgun would be my choice if I could only have 1 gun. My Savage is reliable, easy to use, holds up to 5 rounds. And yes, the act of pumping has prompted many an attacker to back off from people. In my poorest days, I could have managed a simple single shot bare bones model that is far better than no gun at all, is simplest of all, very few malfunctions. I have a 410 single and 20 g single, both highly dependable. I wouldn't buy a 410 today, as ammo is high & not as much to choose from. With a little practice, shotguns are fairly easy to control and don't take precision aiming. At any likely defense range, they have plenty of knockdown power. However, not easy to carry like a pistol. Handgun is easiest to carry around, where allowed. I carry a .38 for ccw. Partly depends on whether you have to be out in public at all hours, in unsafe areas, not that any are safe, but some are worse than others. I love my 22 rifle but it's more for plinking with me than defense.

wyobohunter
March 6, 2009, 10:45 AM
One should always have a $150-$200 gun with $600 worth of tacti-cool accessories attached. This way when the Mall-Ninja cum Zombies are chasing you down the street you have plenty of Red Herring to slow them down. Everybody knows that Mall-Ninja-Zombies crave expensive flashlights even more than human flesh.

That takes care of the urban apocolypse scenario...

For me, a survival scenario in the woods is much more likely; I always have some sort of gun and I'd just have to make do with what I have along. I'd feel just fine (gun wise) if all I had was the scatter gun, a half dozen slugs and 10-20 #6 or #71/2 bird shot. I could also pack one or two 12 ga. flares...

colostomyclown
March 6, 2009, 02:11 PM
if used purely as defense and survival, i belie ve so. You're not going to effectively engage anyone from long rages, but that's not what Survival's about. If you're looking to preserve you and effectively STOP any threat trying to reach you or those you love, then it's effectiveness is probably unparallelled. Got to avoid the mall ninja syndrome and take a shotgun for what it is and what it isn't. it is NOt a primary combat weapon unless you are a - supported by rifles, or b- can run and jump like Superman

Gats Italian
March 6, 2009, 02:18 PM
Indoors and at short ranges found in most outside urban environments, a shotgun doesn't need rifle support to be combat effective.

hogdogs
March 6, 2009, 02:26 PM
Gats, do you consider 100 yards+ "short range"? If I am engaging combatants at more than 125, I am either breaking the law or being an "army of one" in time of civil unrest or military take over (ours or theirs)... at which time I may resort to different firearms that are not as loud or emitting a huge muzzle flash yet still reduce the enemy's numbers effectively.
At 125 yards and under I am pretty sure COM is a viable target, for my skill level, and I sure don't want 7/8ths (20 gauge) or 1 ounce (12 gauge) lead blobs hitting me in the chest... I think it might leave a mark!:D
Brent

Gats Italian
March 6, 2009, 04:04 PM
I think you'll find I was supporting the shotgun POV.

Slugs go over 100m easy with practice. Best practice at distance when not in the military is to break contact, not shoot it out.

owen35ny
March 21, 2009, 07:20 PM
Think about it, survival situations will most likely not involve a war, it would be a massive increase in crime, civil unrest and scarcity or resources. In this case you still won;t be able to sport a shotgun or rifle but you will be able to carry a handgun.

armsmaster270
March 21, 2009, 07:38 PM
owen35ny
in your scenario in actuality everyone would be armed. Its an old adige don't take a pistol to a gunfight. that's why you see a lot more P.D.'s and Highway Patrols going to rifles to supplement their shotguns. You wil see a 12ga and an AR right next to each other between the seats in 1 man C.H.P. vehicles the army gives soldiers rifles and machineguns pistols go to men on crew served weapons, officers and M.P.'s

owen35ny
March 21, 2009, 10:22 PM
If there were a real depression tomorow with riots and home invasions and etc. do you think the government is going to pass a law saying you can walk around with an ar-15?

ibe4buckshot
March 29, 2009, 10:44 PM
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publius
March 29, 2009, 10:49 PM
Absolutely, a good 870 withan assortment of bird shot, buckshot, and slugs and you're good to go for anything.