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Spectre
October 30, 1998, 12:23 AM
I have been wanting to experiment with some .45 bullets loaded in a 12 gauge for a while. I figure that a 230-grain Gold Dot or XTP @ 1300 to 1700 fps would be a lightly-recoiling load for tactical use, and I can't see needing more gun on a thin-skinned, light-boned biped. I figure this should also be enough gun for white-tail deer...Has anyone here tried anything like this?

I have also thought of loading several pistol bullets in series in a 12. I believe that one should be able to achieve multi-hit capability at much further ranges than traditional shot loads, while retaining more energy downrange.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, or has actually experimented with either idea, I'd certainly like to hear about it.

EricGT
October 30, 1998, 02:16 AM
Here is a link to a <a href="http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs.htm" target="new">Firearms Tactical Institute article on defensive ammo for shotguns</a> These guys make a lot of sense to me and their site is a pretty good info resource. Check them out...<a href="http://ericcom.com/glocktalk/" target="new">Eric@GT</a>

Rob Pincus
October 30, 1998, 02:24 AM
I used to experiment like a mad man with 12 gauge shells. Flechettes, multiple slugs, etc... Fun stuff, but I never really found anything that I would rather have than the multitude of good, proven commercial stuff. The one "novelty" round that I usually keep handy (ie- on my bandolier...) is a pepper charge. I've thought it through and there seem to be some scenarios where you might want to punch a whole through a window and fill a small room with pepper gas, when no bombs or spray is available or there is none left. Of course, I'd probly ended up coating me and my buddies with the stuff http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/smile.gif

fal308
October 30, 1998, 10:33 AM
Spectre
The problem, I believe, about loading several bullets to get more range doesn't take into account any stabilization of the bullets. You might as well be throwing 00 or 0 shot loads. You may even get less range due to deformation of your "shot" charge. And what would the edge of the jacket due to the barrel if you were loading jacketed bullets? Now how about trying a tac load using saboted slug instead of buckshot.
Eric
Thanks for the link. Looks like good perusing.

Spectre
October 30, 1998, 07:31 PM
Fal,
Perhaps I was not clear on what I was suggesting. "Series" indicates that they would be loaded in a line. I thought that some small cup or buffer would be placed between the base of each short little pistol bullet and the nose of the following one. The bullets would be encased in a sabot.

I need to measure some pistols bullets for OAL, to determine if current off the shelf unloaded pistol bullets might work, or whether some type of custom projectile(s) would be needed.

Rob Pincus
October 31, 1998, 03:49 AM
Spect, I know I have seen that somewhere before, I think it was several 9mm rounds.

Off the top of my head, ballistic stability is going to be approximately none. and the speed will be well under what would be needed to cause normal performance from a HP if it did hit with the right end first. This would be like the tumbling reverse SWC discussed on another thread around here somewhere, without the velocity. From a tactical standpoint, you really aren't gaining much over 0 buck IMHO.

Rich Lucibella
October 31, 1998, 09:31 AM
Rob-
I believe you're thinking of the, never got off the ground(?), 357 Maximum of a few years back.
Rich

Spectre
October 31, 1998, 09:56 AM
Rob,

I believe you have considerably more experience than I, so of course I respect your opinion. One can currently obtain a 500 grain slug doing 1500 fps. I don't see that 3 9mm bullets loaded into a sabot (maximum weight possible would be 474 grains, right?) would not be able to be pushed fast enough to open. You may be correct as far as stabilization, but I had hoped that the spin would do that nicely, though that would certainly have some effect on dispersion.

Rob Pincus
October 31, 1998, 12:34 PM
I guess that I was pictureing something not quite so sophisticated. I also think I have seen a pre-fragmented slub on the market somewhere already. There is an round available for .410 that has 4 or 5 pellets of .40 calibre, that is probably cose to what you are envisioning, but obviously less powerful. Is this somehting ou would like to do at your reloading bench, or is this a hypothetical commercial round? If the former, the sabot will arguably the key to making it work.

Spectre
October 31, 1998, 03:31 PM
Rob,

I wasn't really thinking in terms of a prefrag slug like the Remington or QS. I was hoping to achieve multiple, spin-stabilized projectiles with a moderate amount of dispersion. It is quite likely that I will have to test this out myself first, but I figure I have enough (hopefully good http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/wink.gif) ideas that I should get paid for them eventually!

Rob Pincus
October 31, 1998, 06:48 PM
If you can come up with a way to make a good Sabot for an application like that without investing in thousands of dollars of equipment... I'll pay!