Interesting ammo cartridge forms and construction

Skadoosh · June 25, 2013, 08:35 AM

I came across this link of photographic art created by LA-based photographer Sabine Pearlman and it shows cross sectioned ammunition.

http://petapixel.com/2013/06/21/ammo...d-during-wwii/

What struck me as odd is that these photos did not seem like they were of any ammunition that I have ever seen. Even the petapixel hyperlink is incorrect (bullets-used-during-wwii). Thoughts anyone?

Brian Pfleuger · June 25, 2013, 10:17 AM

Somebody who wrote it up (created the original link/story) just doesn't read very well. It doesn't say the ammo is from WWII, it says she took the pictures in a WWII bunker.

Quite a bit of the ammo looks very ordinary. Several appear to be some form of 9mm, I would guess, and the one with the blue ball on the tip is (I'm guessing) a Glaser "Safety Slug" or similar.

That one in the top center is interesting. I've never seen anything with a "spacer" or air pocket sleeve in there, whatever that might be called. Where's Mike Irwin? He'll know.

Edited to add:

The scale is not correct (consistent), so that may throw you off. The one cartridge near the one with the blue ball tip looks to be a WSM or WSSM of some kind and the blue tipped one is certainly some kind of straight-walled handgun cartridge, if not 9mm something similar. Obviously, it should be MUCH smaller than the WS(S)M. It's not 9mm... case to bullet proportions are wrong, I think.

Skadoosh · June 25, 2013, 10:30 AM

I also believe the blue ball one appears to be a Glaser round.

I think the top-right one is 8x57mm Mauser wood bullet training round used for the Mauser 98k and was close range target training for decades.

The triple projectile I believe was the Russian 5.45x39 round they messed with to give multiple hit probability without the tri-burst requirement. It was dropped due to poor terminal ballistics without any increase in probability of hits.

The black AP(?) round is interesting . . . as is the fletchet one, but not really sure what the fletchet one would be used for.

The first blue one has me completely baffled.

Brian Pfleuger · June 25, 2013, 10:57 AM

Based on the primer dimensions, that blue-tipped one (with the ball) has a case that is about 1.59" long.... almost twice as long as 9mm... and it's rimmed. It's almost 1/4" longer than 357mag. It would be about right for .357max but the rim is too wide.

The rim is about correct for a 44mag but I measure the bullet at about .531...

Got to do some work... maybe somebody else know these dimensions.

Wait... I just realized I was using large primer dimensions...

Brian Pfleuger · June 25, 2013, 11:25 AM

So, if it's a large primer, those measurement are roughly correct.

If it's a small primer, I get a bullet diameter of .39, so probably .400..

Strange. Maybe I'm screwing it all up.

The dimensions ALMOST match 41mag... except it doesn't use small primers.

If it's large primer, it comes semi close to 500SW if my measurements are off by a bit.

Doesn't make much sense to me.... that WSM looking one would have a case 1" long....

**Mike Irwin** · June 25, 2013, 11:38 AM

I posted about this in another forum.

I'll just C&P...

First picture, first and third cartridges appear to be 7.5x55 Swiss rounds (they could also easily be 7.62x51). The plastic rounds were short-range training/gallery rounds. Essentially the neck would snap at the bullet portion of the case.

The middle round I believe is a 7.62x51 NATO round. It appears to be pelletized propellant. I know a number of nations in Europe experimented with pelletized ammunition that could be loaded in the case earlier in the forming process and more easily than loose powder. The filler is interesting, though. I need to do some reading in my Jean Huon book. (edit in: still need to do that).

Second picture first cartridge sure looks like a .455 Webley to me.

And yeah, most of those are modern cartridges.

(edit in)

Most of the other cartridges seem to be various flavors of 9mm.

You can tell, though, that a lot of them are European in origen because of the Berdan priming.

Someone identified the last one (with the red plastic case) as a Speer plastic training round. I'm not 100% sure that it is, but it is the same concept. I believe that that is a rubber bullet, though, not a plastic bullet of the type that Speer offered.

The three weird rifle cartridges in the next to last set appear to be a 7.62x51, and I don't know about the other two. The last one is weird, because it has the multi-ball round, so it has a VERY long neck.

The one in the middle looks like a 5.56x45 flechette round, but it's difficult because the cartridges in each group don't appear to be realistically scaled to each other.

The set above that appears to be a Glaser .38 Special or .357 Magnum, and the bottlenecked round someone identified as a British development, the .224 Boz.

It would have been nice had the photographer added some information about the cartridges.

Brian Pfleuger · June 25, 2013, 06:22 PM

I told you Mike would know what they were.

June 25, 2013, 08:35 AM	#1
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	Interesting ammo cartridge forms and construction I came across this link of photographic art created by LA-based photographer Sabine Pearlman and it shows cross sectioned ammunition. http://petapixel.com/2013/06/21/ammo...d-during-wwii/ What struck me as odd is that these photos did not seem like they were of any ammunition that I have ever seen. Even the petapixel hyperlink is incorrect (bullets-used-during-wwii). Thoughts anyone? __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

June 25, 2013, 10:17 AM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Somebody who wrote it up (created the original link/story) just doesn't read very well. It doesn't say the ammo is from WWII, it says she took the pictures in a WWII bunker. Quite a bit of the ammo looks very ordinary. Several appear to be some form of 9mm, I would guess, and the one with the blue ball on the tip is (I'm guessing) a Glaser "Safety Slug" or similar. That one in the top center is interesting. I've never seen anything with a "spacer" or air pocket sleeve in there, whatever that might be called. Where's Mike Irwin? He'll know. Edited to add: The scale is not correct (consistent), so that may throw you off. The one cartridge near the one with the blue ball tip looks to be a WSM or WSSM of some kind and the blue tipped one is certainly some kind of straight-walled handgun cartridge, if not 9mm something similar. Obviously, it should be MUCH smaller than the WS(S)M. It's not 9mm... case to bullet proportions are wrong, I think. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; June 25, 2013 at 10:24 AM.

June 25, 2013, 10:30 AM	#3
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	I also believe the blue ball one appears to be a Glaser round. I think the top-right one is 8x57mm Mauser wood bullet training round used for the Mauser 98k and was close range target training for decades. The triple projectile I believe was the Russian 5.45x39 round they messed with to give multiple hit probability without the tri-burst requirement. It was dropped due to poor terminal ballistics without any increase in probability of hits. The black AP(?) round is interesting . . . as is the fletchet one, but not really sure what the fletchet one would be used for. The first blue one has me completely baffled. __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

June 25, 2013, 10:57 AM	#4
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Based on the primer dimensions, that blue-tipped one (with the ball) has a case that is about 1.59" long.... almost twice as long as 9mm... and it's rimmed. It's almost 1/4" longer than 357mag. It would be about right for .357max but the rim is too wide. The rim is about correct for a 44mag but I measure the bullet at about .531... Got to do some work... maybe somebody else know these dimensions. Wait... I just realized I was using large primer dimensions... __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

June 25, 2013, 11:25 AM	#5
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	So, if it's a large primer, those measurement are roughly correct. If it's a small primer, I get a bullet diameter of .39, so probably .400.. Strange. Maybe I'm screwing it all up. The dimensions ALMOST match 41mag... except it doesn't use small primers. If it's large primer, it comes semi close to 500SW if my measurements are off by a bit. Doesn't make much sense to me.... that WSM looking one would have a case 1" long.... __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

June 25, 2013, 11:38 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,404	I posted about this in another forum. I'll just C&P... First picture, first and third cartridges appear to be 7.5x55 Swiss rounds (they could also easily be 7.62x51). The plastic rounds were short-range training/gallery rounds. Essentially the neck would snap at the bullet portion of the case. The middle round I believe is a 7.62x51 NATO round. It appears to be pelletized propellant. I know a number of nations in Europe experimented with pelletized ammunition that could be loaded in the case earlier in the forming process and more easily than loose powder. The filler is interesting, though. I need to do some reading in my Jean Huon book. (edit in: still need to do that). Second picture first cartridge sure looks like a .455 Webley to me. And yeah, most of those are modern cartridges. (edit in) Most of the other cartridges seem to be various flavors of 9mm. You can tell, though, that a lot of them are European in origen because of the Berdan priming. Someone identified the last one (with the red plastic case) as a Speer plastic training round. I'm not 100% sure that it is, but it is the same concept. I believe that that is a rubber bullet, though, not a plastic bullet of the type that Speer offered. The three weird rifle cartridges in the next to last set appear to be a 7.62x51, and I don't know about the other two. The last one is weird, because it has the multi-ball round, so it has a VERY long neck. The one in the middle looks like a 5.56x45 flechette round, but it's difficult because the cartridges in each group don't appear to be realistically scaled to each other. The set above that appears to be a Glaser .38 Special or .357 Magnum, and the bottlenecked round someone identified as a British development, the .224 Boz. It would have been nice had the photographer added some information about the cartridges. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 25, 2013, 06:22 PM	#7
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I told you Mike would know what they were. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley