40 gr Nosler bullet ?

rebs · June 2, 2013, 04:07 PM

I have a friend that shoots an AR 15 223/5.56 and he thinks a 40 Nosler bullet is enough to take deer and coyotes ?
I think its too small and would like to hear some opimions from you guys on here.

603Country · June 2, 2013, 05:53 PM

I use a lot of the 40 Nosler BT's over H335 and it works just fine on coyotes. The last one I shot, at maybe 80 yards, was snapped down by the bullet so fast that I thought I might have missed. But I didn't.

I guess that the little bullet just dumps all its energy into a critter the size of the coyote.

rebs · June 2, 2013, 06:03 PM

what about a deer ?

histed · June 2, 2013, 06:06 PM

I agree. I use the 40 grain in my Model 70 for groundhogs and have shot coyotes a couple of times. Great bullet for that. As for deer - IMO NO WAY! The bullet is too light and to frangible. Hit a bone and you have a massive flesh wound. I know someone is going to say "but you can kill a deer with a .22LR..." And I've read stories of grizzly being done in by small calibers. Doesn't mean it should be done or that its a good idea. Wounding game is never a good thing - there is an obligation to take game as cleanly and humanely as possible. 40 grain varmint bullets don't make the grade.

603Country · June 2, 2013, 08:53 PM

histed is right. Don't use that little bullet on deer. If you absolutely have to shoot a deer with a 223, I'd limit the bullet choices to the 60 gr Nosler Partition, the 65 gr Sierra GK, or one of the Barnes TSX bullets (the largest that will stabilize in your rifle).

Immediately following this comment by me will likely be a dozen or more folks foaming at the mouth to tell you that you can use any number of unsuitable bullets if you hit em right in the carotid, or the eye, or the spine, or the scrotum or whatever. All I'm saying is that what I know to be workable is the Nosler Partition. That bullet will do it for ya, if you just have to shoot a deer with that caliber. But you still have to place the bullet carefully. And better to do the shooting in the morning so you'll have good light for tracking. And I'm talking from a half century of deer hunting, so this isn't theory I'm spouting.

rebs · June 4, 2013, 05:00 PM

my thougyts are the same as you guys, now I have to convince my friend not to use 40 gr bullets for deer.

pathdoc · June 4, 2013, 05:51 PM

right in the carotid, or the eye, or the spine, or the scrotum or whatever.

I'm assuming that last one is based on the hypothesis that in rut, a buck deer's brain goes to the same place a man's does. Otherwise I got nuthin'.

Barnes' reloading manual offers a 45gn .224" bullet allegedly suitable for deer, but it's one of those special all-copper deals which is designed to function like a larger big game bullet. How it works in the field, I do not know.

**44 AMP** · June 5, 2013, 04:08 PM

Just wondering why he would think that a bullet that is designed to blow up on varmints (very light small boned animals) would be a good idea for deer?

Certainly, you can kill a deer with a bullet not meant for it, when the stars all line up. But tell me, when you take a shot at a deer, intentionally avoiding the heavy bones, and the bullet still breaks up into small fragments from hitting a light bone (rib, etc), do you still think its a good choice?

Its not (so much) the weight of the bullet, or the velocity, its what the bullet is designed to do when it hits something at that speed that matters.

A 40gr solid might be a fair choice, depending on the shooter's ability to place the bullet where it needs to go, but a 40gr varmint bullet in the same spot could result in a wounded, and possibly lost deer.

A bullet (no matter the size) intended to expand violently (explosively) and dump all its energy in an animal of 40lbs or less is NOT the right choice to use on an animal that weighs 3 times that much, or more. The same weight bullet (of radically different construction) might be an acceptable choice, but that is much more situation specific.

The old saying about how deer (and everything else) have been killed by a .22rimfire might at one time have been true. It might still be true. But it counts the numbers of game poached (jacklighted, etc.) where the .22 is popular because of the low volume of the report, AND takes NO ACCOUNT of all the deer (whatever) shot and lost, because the small caliber simply didn't work.

There is a reason the majority of states require something bigger than a .22 caliber for deer, and it has nothing to do with what an expert is able to kill a deer with, but what the average hunter's results are. Game hunting is about sportsmanship, and ethics, not about what will physically work under optimum conditions.

If your buddy can hit 'em in the eye, on a dead run at 80yds every time, and they all drop DRT, then I won't question his choice of ammo (provided it is legally allowed for hunting). But if he EVER takes any other shot, where the bullet might have to actually penetrate the body cavity, AND remain intact enough to do fatal damage, then a varmint bullet isn't the right choice.

Watching a deer (or anything else) bounding away into the next county, to die three days later from internal bleeding because tiny fragments of varmint bullet peppered the vitals isn't my idea of a proper hunting practice.

June 2, 2013, 04:07 PM	#1
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	40 gr Nosler bullet ? I have a friend that shoots an AR 15 223/5.56 and he thinks a 40 Nosler bullet is enough to take deer and coyotes ? I think its too small and would like to hear some opimions from you guys on here.

June 2, 2013, 06:06 PM	#4
histed Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2013 Location: Central PA Posts: 254	I agree. I use the 40 grain in my Model 70 for groundhogs and have shot coyotes a couple of times. Great bullet for that. As for deer - IMO NO WAY! The bullet is too light and to frangible. Hit a bone and you have a massive flesh wound. I know someone is going to say "but you can kill a deer with a .22LR..." And I've read stories of grizzly being done in by small calibers. Doesn't mean it should be done or that its a good idea. Wounding game is never a good thing - there is an obligation to take game as cleanly and humanely as possible. 40 grain varmint bullets don't make the grade. __________________ You Have enemies? Good. That means that you've stood up for something in your life. --Winston Churchill The right to buy weapons is the right to be free. -- A.E. Van Vogt

June 5, 2013, 04:08 PM	#8
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,874	Just wondering why he would think that a bullet that is designed to blow up on varmints (very light small boned animals) would be a good idea for deer? Certainly, you can kill a deer with a bullet not meant for it, when the stars all line up. But tell me, when you take a shot at a deer, intentionally avoiding the heavy bones, and the bullet still breaks up into small fragments from hitting a light bone (rib, etc), do you still think its a good choice? Its not (so much) the weight of the bullet, or the velocity, its what the bullet is designed to do when it hits something at that speed that matters. A 40gr solid might be a fair choice, depending on the shooter's ability to place the bullet where it needs to go, but a 40gr varmint bullet in the same spot could result in a wounded, and possibly lost deer. A bullet (no matter the size) intended to expand violently (explosively) and dump all its energy in an animal of 40lbs or less is NOT the right choice to use on an animal that weighs 3 times that much, or more. The same weight bullet (of radically different construction) might be an acceptable choice, but that is much more situation specific. The old saying about how deer (and everything else) have been killed by a .22rimfire might at one time have been true. It might still be true. But it counts the numbers of game poached (jacklighted, etc.) where the .22 is popular because of the low volume of the report, AND takes NO ACCOUNT of all the deer (whatever) shot and lost, because the small caliber simply didn't work. There is a reason the majority of states require something bigger than a .22 caliber for deer, and it has nothing to do with what an expert is able to kill a deer with, but what the average hunter's results are. Game hunting is about sportsmanship, and ethics, not about what will physically work under optimum conditions. If your buddy can hit 'em in the eye, on a dead run at 80yds every time, and they all drop DRT, then I won't question his choice of ammo (provided it is legally allowed for hunting). But if he EVER takes any other shot, where the bullet might have to actually penetrate the body cavity, AND remain intact enough to do fatal damage, then a varmint bullet isn't the right choice. Watching a deer (or anything else) bounding away into the next county, to die three days later from internal bleeding because tiny fragments of varmint bullet peppered the vitals isn't my idea of a proper hunting practice. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 2, 2013, 05:53 PM	#2
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	I use a lot of the 40 Nosler BT's over H335 and it works just fine on coyotes. The last one I shot, at maybe 80 yards, was snapped down by the bullet so fast that I thought I might have missed. But I didn't. I guess that the little bullet just dumps all its energy into a critter the size of the coyote.

June 2, 2013, 06:03 PM	#3
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	what about a deer ?

June 2, 2013, 08:53 PM	#5
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	histed is right. Don't use that little bullet on deer. If you absolutely have to shoot a deer with a 223, I'd limit the bullet choices to the 60 gr Nosler Partition, the 65 gr Sierra GK, or one of the Barnes TSX bullets (the largest that will stabilize in your rifle). Immediately following this comment by me will likely be a dozen or more folks foaming at the mouth to tell you that you can use any number of unsuitable bullets if you hit em right in the carotid, or the eye, or the spine, or the scrotum or whatever. All I'm saying is that what I know to be workable is the Nosler Partition. That bullet will do it for ya, if you just have to shoot a deer with that caliber. But you still have to place the bullet carefully. And better to do the shooting in the morning so you'll have good light for tracking. And I'm talking from a half century of deer hunting, so this isn't theory I'm spouting.

June 4, 2013, 05:00 PM	#6
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	my thougyts are the same as you guys, now I have to convince my friend not to use 40 gr bullets for deer.

June 4, 2013, 05:51 PM	#7
pathdoc Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2013 Posts: 669	right in the carotid, or the eye, or the spine, or the scrotum or whatever. I'm assuming that last one is based on the hypothesis that in rut, a buck deer's brain goes to the same place a man's does. Otherwise I got nuthin'. Barnes' reloading manual offers a 45gn .224" bullet allegedly suitable for deer, but it's one of those special all-copper deals which is designed to function like a larger big game bullet. How it works in the field, I do not know.