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Old 454
August 29, 2013, 06:28 PM
So here is a question for you much experienced casters.

The .357 Magnum was designed in 1935, I would like to try and reproduce that bullet that was designed for the original .357

Do any of you have what kind of alloyed lead was used for that bullet and bullet profile, and what kind of powder and in how many grains.

I do belive they used a lead bullet back then correct ?

Beagle333
August 29, 2013, 08:18 PM
the one they finally settled on?

I believe you would need an early Keith-style bullet if you want the very first one made for it. In the beginning, he specified a meplat that was 65% of the bullet caliber, but later increased it to a 70% meplat. And it has to have a double radius ogive, beveled crimp groove, three equal width driving bands, wide square bottomed grease groove, and a plain base with sharp corners.

So I don't know where you would still get the original Keith style bullet with all those requirements and still a 65% meplat, other than having Tom at AccurateMolds make you one. I forgot how many varieties of that bullet there are, but I think GP100man has collected several of em.

NOE makes a nice Keith that looks close, to me. But they do have a meplat that is closer to .27 according to my micrometer, and that would be around 75%.
As far as load data and alloy..... all my Keith book talks about is his hunting exploits and I don't have any technical notes.

And apparently, it went through many developments before they finalized what would be the official .357 bullet. According to Wikipedia:
The choice of bullet for the .357 Magnum cartridge varied during its development. During the development at Smith & Wesson, the original Keith bullet was modified slightly, to the form of the Sharpe bullet, which itself was based upon the Keith bullet, but which had 5/6 of the bearing surface of the Keith bullet, Keith bullets typically being made oversized and sized down. Winchester, however, upon experimenting further during the cartridge development, modified the Sharpe bullet shape slightly, while keeping the Sharpe contour of the bullet. The final choice of bullet was hence based upon the earlier Keith and Sharpe bullets, while additionally having slight differences from both.

dahermit
August 29, 2013, 08:30 PM
I believe you would need an early Keith-style bullet if you want the very first one made for it. Elmer had a lot to do with the .44 Magnum, but I do not remember any references to him designing the .357. Are you sure?

Edit: I see that you have edited you post and provided references as too the Kieth influence. You were correct after all, the Kieth design was a consideration in the original bullet for the .357 it seems. Sorry for doubting.

Beagle333
August 29, 2013, 08:42 PM
I feel pretty good about it being him and Phillip Sharpe.

GP100man
August 29, 2013, 09:25 PM
Actually I think Mr. Keith was doing testing on long nosed bullets for game & accuracy then it spilled over to the 44 when it arrived in the 50s , but we know Mr. Keith never loaded a 44spc. HOT !

Here`s a good article from Mr. Fryxell it`ll interest ya for a few minutes!

http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=24

You`re welcomed, GP

salvadore
August 30, 2013, 07:53 AM
As far as I know, the original factory load was a lead swaged bullet @158grs pushed past the 40,000psi level. Keith designed a bullet for the 38/44 outdoorsman in .38 spec. He loaded his 358429 bullet with a scary amount of 2400 in the 38 spec. brass for that gun. His bullet was too long to fit in the new .357s without crimping over the top band.

The most early on popular bullet for the .357 reloader was the 358477. Ray THompson designed a gas checked SWC with two crimp grooves back in the fifties I believe. Skeeter Skelton used this bullet in 38 cases with again 2400 crimping in the lower crimp groove, I use both the Keith and Thompson in 38 brass with slightly less 2400 than the two gents did.

I probably have some of the above wrong, so feel free to correct.

Oh yeah, I remember reading in one of Elmer's books that he was instrumental in designing the .357. I believe more correctly he was instrumental in designing high pressure 38 loads for the N framed 38s

salvadore
August 30, 2013, 08:02 AM
After scanning Fryxell's article it appears that the first popular.357 bullet was the 358446 and not the 358477. My bad.

Mike / Tx
August 30, 2013, 09:52 AM
I would wager that once LAH dials in on this he will have some input.

He has several of the Keith designed bullets and has a pretty decent idea on which one to use.

Not sure on the 357, but from what reading I have done on the 44 Elmer liked to use a 16-1 alloy for a LOT of things.

There is some pretty decent reading here as well,
Elmer Keith Memorial Website (http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/)

Old 454
August 30, 2013, 05:22 PM
Wow I have a lot of reading to do.

If memory serves me correctly didn't Elmer start with a 20 to 1 mix of lead tin then go to a 16 to 1 lead tin ?

I might have to make a few pounds of each.

Hmm I was hoping I could find some of the bullet style/profile that was used. I will have to some digging around and ask a few of my friends that have been loading for 50+ years to see if they have any of the above mentioned molds

GP100man
August 30, 2013, 09:29 PM
Well , when someone mentions Mr. Keiths name in the same sentence as 357 Magnum ,this is the bullet they immediately relate to .

The 2 on the left are earlier (close to Mr. Keiths original designs) & the 1 on the rt. is what companies are offering in modern times .

The front band is narrower & smaller in dia.

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_1181.jpg (http://s746.photobucket.com/user/GP100man/media/102_1181.jpg.html)

Noe Bullet Moulds in holding to Mr. Keiths fussin `bout that front band being full dia & wide has this design.

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_1250-1.jpg (http://s746.photobucket.com/user/GP100man/media/102_1250-1.jpg.html)

& todays designers have gone goo/goo over WNFP designs like this

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_0519.jpg (http://s746.photobucket.com/user/GP100man/media/102_0519.jpg.html)

& as addicted as I am to the Silver Stream I must have em !!!

But I can stop anytime I want ,I just don`t want to !!!

Old 454
August 31, 2013, 03:55 PM
the bottom pic are of the type I cast, I will have to post some pics of my boolits, I have only been doing this since fathers day when my kids got me my Lee 4-20 pot

dahermit
September 1, 2013, 07:37 AM
Noe Bullet Moulds in holding to Mr. Keiths fussin `bout that front band being full dia & wide has this design.I remember Elmer ranting in a gun rag about how his design was being corrupted with a narrower front band. I remember him stating that the when the bullet slammed into the forcing cone, a wide front band was an advantage. One of my first molds, a H.P., single cavity, Lyman 429421, was not faithful to his design, having a narrower first band and a rounded lube groove. Lyman refered to it as "Keith type", none the less. In later years, RCBS started with a flat-angled lube groove and then Lyman followed suit. I do not recall if they had the wider front bands though.