Suspicious panhandler in the parking lot

[dakota.potts]

My girlfriend just texted me. She went to Walmart to get some food for a trip we're taking this week. As she got out of the car a homeless person approached her with a bunch of things he had made out of palm leaves. He started by saying "Miss, I'm not going to hurt you, I'm just homeless and need to sell some of these to get by". She said "No, sorry" and sped up. He followed her and said "Miss, please come back, I'm not going to hurt you". At this point she turned backwards to face him while walking into the store and got inside quickly. He didn't follow her.

As Walmart is a "safe place" she requested to have somebody in the store walk out with her to her car.

What would you have done in similar circumstances? I know for the most part homeless and panhandlers can get a little weird but you also don't know if it's going to be that one time that they're not going to take the answer "no".

[allaroundhunter]

A firm "no" and "back away", and while doing that I would have my pepper spray in hand (though perhaps not where he could see it). Now, that is me. Your girlfriend should have already had her pepper spray in her hand and where he could see that she was ready to use it.

The "sorry", while polite, is a cue to him that she will not do anything to him if he continues to pry. Leave out the political correctness and be very firm. She did well, however, to have someone else walk her out to her car. But think for a second, did she know the person who walked her to her car any more than she knew the homeless man?

[dakota.potts]

When she went inside she was pointed to a couple of police officers who were already there after having made a different arrest. She asked the police officers if one of them could walk her to the car. One informed her he was busy and the other laughed at her and asked what she was so afraid of in the middle of the day :rolleyes: He finally relented but walked far behind her.

She doesn't carry pepper spray yet. We've talked about it but neither of us really knows how to use it and I'm not sold yet on if it could make things worse by getting in your own face or just making an experienced criminal angry.

[allaroundhunter]

Does she have any method of defense? If not then she really should get some pepper spray. There is not much of a learning curve to using pepper spray, it is a point and shoot type of thing. And another good thing is that sometimes, just the presence of it will cause an unwanted person to back off (like most likely would have happened in this instance).

How many college age girls do you think have "training" in how to use pepper spray? Now how many do you think carry it?...

I think you are way off base thinking those are reasons not to carry it. Especially after you make a list of reasons that she should carry it. Heck, you probably should as well... I do.

[kilimanjaro]

If you see aggressive approach or signs of a probable attack, they are already 'angry '.

[dakota.potts]

This is true. I am not against it. We have just not taken affirmative action as I don't know enough about it to have made a choice. We will be revisiting it after this though.

What she does have is one of these that clips to her keychain: https://www.oneplusdefense.com/images/detailed/0/brutus01blue.jpg It is not much but as a force multiplier could really do some damage. I had one before I got my knife.

As far as Tactics go, would this have set off alarm bells for you? What would you tactically have done to keep the situation in your favor?

[allaroundhunter]

I would NOT have turned my back to the man. I would have tried to take another route to my vehicle, preferably one with other people around. And again, my pepper spray would have been unlocked and ready to go.

Take your pick:

http://www.sabrered.com/servlet/Service

[dakota.potts]

She was going from her car to the store. She turned to face the man and backed into the Walmart entrance. Is that what you were referring to?

[SgtLumpy]

Everyone, men and women, have to come to terms (or not) with the concept of not being polite to someone who is in their space.

COMMAND the guy to back away. Loud enough so that others hear you. Do that and some bystander might find those two cops inside and say "Hey, I think there's a fight or a woman getting attacked or something in the parking lot".

Don't ever "apologize" for not allowing someone into your safety space.

"I'm not going to hurt you" coming from someone too close for comfort is not acceptable, to me at least.


Sgt Lumpy

[Ed4032]

This happened to me once. Also at a Walmart. I used my outside voice to let him know to stay away. It was very effective. I had plan B ready though.

[Jammer Six]

The problem here is that we're talking about a female-- and none of you guys know what would work for her. Really. What we do is different from what women do in the same situation, and this is one clear example of when we need a female instructor.

[BradS]

Just a few thoughts. I instruct my wife to scan the parking lot prior to unlocking and exiting her car. If something or someone appears suspicious,have your pepper spray concealed in hand.
Walk like you own it and be aware of your surroundings.I agree, a firm no response and keep walking would be appropriate.
If the Officer was free to leave his partner, he should have been more than happy to walk the lady to her car. that's just good PR and Customer Service.
Just my .02.

[allaroundhunter]

The problem here is that we're talking about a female-- and none of you guys know what would work for her. Really. What we do is different from what women do in the same situation, and this is one clear example of when we need a female instructor.

The same security precautions that men take can also be taken by women. Avoiding the threat or finding a way around it is a plan best pursued by anyone, regardless of age, race, or gender.

[dakota.potts]

She is not necessarily "defense minded" like I am. I doubt she would be able to awaken the split second brutality required to use a knife but I carry one all the time. I'm getting her to be more receptive to things like locking her doors and rolling up her windows, not going certain areas (Walmart) after a certain time, things like that. What I'm getting at is she's never really practiced a firm confrontation or standing somebody down with her voice. It's not a thing that comes naturally to a person.

Do any of you have SOs that are like this? If I had her live the way I do (constant condition yellow as long as I possibly can even in safe conditions, constant firearms training, visualization, etc.) she would likely have a mental breakdown. So, I find myself compromising. Obviously, realistically, not everybody's going to be a constantly hyper aware Krav Maga black belt. I don't expect that but I hope I can help her not be caught unaware and avoid confrontations. What I'm asking is what have people done for loved ones in similar situations? Obviously I'm going to talk to her about a more effective self defense method than her keychain. What are some simple, effective steps that can be done for somebody who may resist hours of tactical training and scenarios?

[geetarman]

My daughter had a similar thing occur at Walmart.

Here is a link to the post and responses.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494995

[allaroundhunter]

Dakota, forget getting her to carry a knife. The chances of that turning on her are much higher than pepper spray. Heck, without some training there is a good chance that you'll be seriously injured with your own knife should you pull it in a fight.

My girlfriend is not a confrontational individual, but she carries pepper spray. She has pulled it twice, and each time that has made the guy to turn and run fast enough to trip. One time there was a police officer there to tackle the guy, but the other one ran and didn't stop.

When my girlfriend is alone I have taught her to be fairly alert (and that has obviously worked well). However, when she is with me she relaxes a little bit.

[dakota.potts]

I was saying the same as I think you are, Hunter. I don't see her using a knife and even when she gets old enough I have a very high doubt she will want anything to do with guns. When I first started becoming aware of what would happen around us, I would tell her to be careful on her way to the bathroom at a restaurant or the mall or really anywhere we split up and a lot of times she would just laugh and say "I'll be fine." She's truly never been a victim of any kind of forcible crime (neither have I) and for some reason some people think it won't happen to them if it hasn't.

She's been getting much better about it these past months. I don't know if it's because she's realizing she's an adult now and getting ready to start her own life soon or if I've gotten through to her or what the cause is, but I'm glad. Hopefully this incident was a sort of wake up call that might be a good thing to making her realize what could happen.

The thing about this incident is with a different wording ("Excuse me, miss, would you take a moment to look at what I have for sale?") it might not have been a big deal. But starting out with "I'm not going to hurt you" really escalates things. It might have been that it regularly scares people and he was trying to comfort her but I wouldn't have stuck around to find out if that was the case. It's almost like saying "Hello officer, I'm not going to shoot you, can you please give me some directions to the nearest gas station?"

geetarman, it seems the Walmart staff and police were much more friendly and willing to help than the ones she encountered :rolleyes: I told my mom the story and she said it's just another reason to carry your own gun because you can never count on somebody else to protect you.

ETA: In the link geetarman posted, there is an awesome article from the Cornered Cat that deals with some of the questions I asked http://www.corneredcat.com/article/understanding-crime/dying-of-embarrassment/

[Jammer Six]

Allaroundhunter, that's where we differ. I don't avoid unidentified threats very often. I certainly don't avoid threats in places I want to go.

It is, therefore, not the "best" strategy. And therein lies the rub.

First, there is no "best" strategy, at least not if you get out of bed in the morning. Second, what works for you wouldn't work for me, as this demonstrates. Third, what works for me wouldn't work for a four foot woman.

Trying to teach your mate anything about self defense is one of the few things I agree with Pax about. If you can teach your mate about self defense, I'd want a different mate. But I imagine we differ there, too.

[allaroundhunter]

Allaroundhunter, that's where we differ. I don't avoid threats very often. I certainly don't avoid threats in places I want to go.

This "plan" makes no sense to me. If you can avoid the threat before anything happens then (in my mind) there is no reason not to. Common sense tells anyone that this is the correct course of action.... But, to each his own, I guess.

If there is a better strategy than attempting avoiding the threat/confrontation in the first place then please, enlighten us.

[Jammer Six]

Yup. And my own depends on how high I perceive the threat to be.

There is virtually no chance of me avoiding a panhandler, even if I see him first.

You probably need to avoid most of Seattle.

[vytoland]

do NOT engage in conversation with these interlopers. do NOT exchange ANY words. completely ignore them and move on.

[Jammer Six]

Actually, I tell them "no."

Works every time.

Every time I do it, anyway. There is one guy here that I went to junior high and high school with, in the late sixties-early seventies. Him, I give money to. I'm sort of dreading the day I don't see him. We come from the same place. There is also a program here in Seattle called "Real Change", and I help them out, too.

So you pays your nickel and you takes your chances.

To re-cap: what works for me may or may not work for you, and what works for men may or may not work for women.

[ripnbst]

This happened to me once. Also at a Walmart. I used my outside voice to let him know to stay away. It was very effective. I had plan B ready though.

Was pregnancy a serious threat?

All joking aside, I'd tell him no thanks same as she did and if he kept on then out comes the stern "I'm on an episode of COPS" voice. Further pestering I'd probably have to put my big boy pants on and un clip my knife from my pocket and have it in my hand ready to deploy (Kershaw speed safe).

If the guy didn't get the effing memo at that point I'm not sure what I would do. At that point I would hope to be nearly halfway across the parking lot and far enough away for him to no longer be a threat. If the guy was following me, which at that point he would have to be for this to still be an issue, I might step to him and get in his face. I don't know. I seldom am not with my wife and 18 mo old son so if had to step to him to keep him at a distance I was comfortable with from them then as much as it would suck its what I would do. I'd have to draw the line somewhere and seeing how he has now followed me what I am envisioning to be nearly 100 feet that would be it for me. He's not following my wife and child any further.

Once they are at the door he can follow me to it if he'd like. Keep in mind I'd have my knife in my hand nearly this whole time.

[Evan Thomas]

Dakota, give or take the "sorry," I think your girlfriend handled it just fine. Yes, pepper spray would have been nice, but in a situation like that, pepper spray -- or any other weapon -- is a backup. Plan A should always be to avoid or get away from the situation if at all possible. (That goes for anyone, male, female, or other.)

She told him no, and when he persisted, she got herself out of the situation as fast as she could while being aware of what he was doing. Then she made sure she had an escort when she went back to her car.

The police officers should NOT have given her a hard time -- that was way out of line, and very unprofessional.

She did well -- take her out for a nice dinner, and don't discuss it over the meal unless she brings it up. ;)

[Venom1956]

Firstly there are weird people everywhere. Not all of them are dangerous.
There are normal people everywhere. Not all of them are to be trusted.

That is the tricky part when it comes to judgement.

I would say composure and presentation is about as effective as any weapon. If you shrink away or your voice betrays your worry, if this person means harm it proves his or her feelings as you as a mark were correct. This composure applies to both sexes. If you come across as confident, cool, and seemingly in control you seem much less appealing.

While I understand your concern for your girlfriend I feel that you are worrying to much. (just an opinion) Women are quite capable of acting under pressure and taking care of themselves, they are not the helpless creatures some (not saying you) assume they are. She's smart. She handled it. I assume she is under 18 by your posts. If when she becomes an adult she expresses interest in learning and owning a weapon of some sort she can take the steps necessary.

All in all these things can and do happen. While not to be casually dismissed I wouldn't dwell on them to terribly either unless it becomes the same person again and again. This has happened to me and my gf.

[Buzzcook]

Sounds like it was handled well.

As to "sorry", well no salesman is going to take the first no for an answer no matter how politely or rudely it's delivered.

[dakota.potts]

Thank you for your opinions.

It's funny someone mentioned age, she is the one who is 18 and I am still a baby and will not be 18 until August. I do worry and that seems to be my way with everything. She is very smart and I don't give her enough credit but as a young, pretty woman out on her own with a lack of life experience and the tendency to think "bad things won't happen right here in my neighborhood" it concerns me. It would have been nice if she had pepper spray or a bowie knife or machete or firearm to back it up but she handled it and that wasn't necessary.

I was curious how other people would've reacted. I imagined from some posters here that the response would have been "Drawn my gun, shouted at him to get on the ground, and handcuffed him while I waited for the cops" (I kid :D) but I wasn't sure what people would actually say. I lack life experience myself and I'm sure that over the years I'll experience things like this enough to know how to handle it just like my parents and their parents before them.

[Glenn Dee]

I think your Girlfriend got lucky. I believe that she was in real danger. I think she did the best thing possible. Get to where there are people inside the store.

Lets look at the situation... Here is a young woman alone going shopping. Ok so she is alone, and no one to assist her, She's young and probably have some money, She's going shopping so she probably has some money. Panhandling in Florida is nothing new. So I'm just a pan handler looking for some money... I've got these neat looking palm things to grab folks attention, What? she says no?... no problem I've got to get just a little closer... "MISS I'm NOT GOING TO HURT YOU!" "I just need a little money to get by" I rush at her but she makes iy to the store... Dammit! Here comes that bi### again.. oh man she got a cop with her...I'm outa here.

Anytime a panhandler wont take no for an answer, he/she will probably push the issue to another level. Anytime a panhandler persue you... WARNING WILL ROBINSON WARNING! If a panhandler suggests that he wont hurt you?... In my humble opinion... he's threatening you... Why even bring that up if you dont want the thought in the victims head?

As a former police officer I find the officers reaction to be.... unacceptable. Obviously these officers have forgotten who they work for.

[Jammer Six]

I was curious how other people would've reacted.
Nobody here can tell you how they would have reacted. Nobody here was there.

[dayman]

I personally would have probably bought one of his creations. I wish more of the homeless people around here made crafts to sell instead of just asking for money. But, I generally give them money anyway - at least when I have change or small bills.
If enough things go wrong any one of us could wind up there, and I like to think if it's ever me, my fellow man will help out.
The overwhelming majority of panhandlers are harmless - often a bit weird, but harmless none the less.

That being said, I think she handled the situation well.
Carrying pepper spray is a good idea in general, but she clearly didn't need it here.
Carrying a knife is a TERRIBLE idea. Fighting effectively with a knife takes a tremendous amount of training (more than fighting effectively with a gun), and requires that you're within grappling range of your adversary. Pulling a knife is more likely to escalate a situation than defuse it, and she doesn't want to be in a knife fight. Google images of people who've "won" a knife fight.

[BuckRub]

This is a situation on how so many respond. "I dont carry pepper spray, not a firearm, not anything really. If bad things come my way I'll just find someone else to help bail me out. Surely there's a policeman standing within 10 feet of me at all times."
Simple reality is you're dead wrong. Yes get help if its available but many times its not. Many times if its you that needs help people are so quick to help only theirselves and not help who ever is in trouble. Everyone who is able needs to find ways and practice to be able to defend themselves WHEN trouble comes their way. Situation Awareness should be first to be aware but you need to carry and train with OC spray, have a gun on you conceiled and know how to use it , be proficient and be willing to do what is necessary to use it for yourself and others who are in need. If you choose not to then just stand there and take whatever comes your way and file a report to the police station after its over with -if you can.

[Vermonter]

First my Fiance carries a firearm and OC spray on a daily basis. She is ready to defend herself and has trained as much as many men. Se was not always that way however. Women are not naturally as aggressive as men. She went through an incident while alone at her parents house that changed her and she luckily was uninjured however inspired to train and learn. As to your specified scenario I will say the following.

1. Loud Firm NO! And a LEAVE ME ALONE! Will go a long way.
2. Do not take your eyes off of him period.
3. Have your hands on your method of defense (in this case OC would be better as a first line)
4. Get inside the store or into the crowd and report the incident to LE asap. (sounds to me like she shopped and only informed LE when she saw them on the way out)


Regards, Vermonter

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I don't know the training situation in FL - but getting training for such is well worthwhile. Quite a few outfits - Insights, FAS, Southnarc, KRtraining - offer comprehensive curriculum for such. Way beyond - the can I shoot'em stuff.

How to interact, defuse, escape, etc. before we get into knifing and shooting and spraying. Then how to do that.

Going through scenarios gives you a mental paradigm that enables you not to freeze up.

If you and her are truly interested - that's the best thing to do. As reported it went well but serious student of the art cannot avoid the scenario training.

[orionengnr]

She asked the police officers if one of them could walk her to the car. One informed her he was busy and the other laughed at her and asked what she was so afraid of in the middle of the day He finally relented but walked far behind her.
Next time, get the badge number of that "public servant". Write a letter to the Chief, cc in the Mayor and maybe the local newspaper.

They work for us. When they forget it, it is time for a reminder. A rather forceful and public reminder usually lasts a bit longer. :)

[Mr. James]

orionengnr,

Darned straight. That was disgraceful, in every sense of the word. Do your damned job, officer.

[weblance]

Something similar happened to me at a local grocery store. As I was approaching the entrance, from the right, a man, about 6 feet away, turned and walked into my path. "Hey buddy, you got any change I can have for some smokes?" I told him no I didnt, and he stepped right in front of me and said "Aw come on man, I know you got some money". I quickly reached into my front pants pocket, and grabbed the grip of my P32. He saw this reaction, turned immediately on his heels and quickly got out of sight. He possibly was more of a criminal than the OPs subject. I dont know. He certainly was focused on my action, and reaction. I never drew the P32, but later thought to myself that reaching for my pistol was the perfect response.

Everyone needs to practice situational awareness. You dont have to be paranoid, but just glance the surroundings, keep your eyes moving, and know whats going on around you. I think the woman in the original post did the correct thing, given the circumstances, and the fact that she was unarmed. I think if I was her, and was frightened by this episode, it would be time to think about some type of protection, either a firearm and appropriate training, or a chemical spray.

[PawPaw]

When she went inside she was pointed to a couple of police officers who were already there after having made a different arrest. She asked the police officers if one of them could walk her to the car. One informed her he was busy and the other laughed at her and asked what she was so afraid of in the middle of the day He finally relented but walked far behind her.

Okay, let's understand this. A nice lady is pointed to two police officers who are there after having made an arrest. They're probably making sure that they have all the information that they need, names, addresses, dates of birth, witness statements, inventories of goods, everything that they need to successfully make the case.

I've been there, done that. It normally takes 30-45 minutes to make the case after you've made the arrest. If a cop has his notepad out, or if he's talking to witnesses, or if he's inspecting merchandise on a shoplifting case, he's busy doing the job he was sent to do.

We get it. Lots of time our job doesn't look like we're doing much, but in many cases, it's all important. Little things that make cases work. We've got to get it all down.

They work for us. When they forget it, it is time for a reminder. A rather forceful and public reminder usually lasts a bit longer.

We sure do, all cops are public servants. However, that doesn't mean that we're available immediately to everybody, especially when we're already on a call. Would you go into a mechanic's bay and demand that he drop what he's doing to look at your problem? Would you walk into a teacher's classroom and demand that she stop what she's doing to help you with a concept? No, you wouldn't, but people walk up to police officers all the time and demand immediate service.

Sometimes the answer is, "I'm busy.", but no one wants to hear that. Granted, the cop could have been a little more diplomatic, and I'd have probably asked if he could wait five minutes until I've finished talking with someone else.

I've even had people, not satisfied with the answer I gave them, whip out a cell phone and call 911. Really? Is that the best you can do when you get an answer you don't like? Yeah, I work for you, but right now I'm helping this fellow. You're next! Just wait your turn.

[PawPaw]

That was disgraceful, in every sense of the word. Do your damned job, officer.

He was there doing his job. He was making an arrest, after having been dispatched to the location. She was safe, her life and limb were in no immediate danger, and the officer was busy on a call that his supervisors had sent him on. He was, in fact, doing his job.

It amazes me that normally rational people, having never been behind the badge, seem to know how to do a police officer's job. And they'll tell us how to do our job at every golden opportunity. I've got over 30 years behind the badge, highly trained, extra education (a Master's Degree), and I love being a police officer. I still like helping people. Even folks who think they know my job.

[Evan Thomas]

It was fine that the officers didn't drop everything to help her, but mocking her is unacceptable. That's the unprofessional behavior in this case.

[SgtLumpy]

I agree that the one officer's response was a little less than professional.

Consider this -

"Officer, would you walk me to my car? I think there's a weirdo guy in the parking lot"

vs

"Officer, there's a strange guy in the parking lot talking about hurting people"


If I was in the parking lot and saw/heard what's being described here, happing to someone ELSE, I'd be calling the gendarmeres. The "I'm not going to hurt you" line, repeated twice, is a little too creepy for me.


Sgt Lumpy

[BuckRub]

The officers did right by doing what they were there for, they should have maybe just told the lady to wait awhile. Good thing everything ended well for the woman but she needs some training for if and when things go south the next time.

[deepcreek]

quote- vytoland do NOT engage in conversation with these interlopers. do NOT exchange ANY words. completely ignore them and move on.

^I agree with this.

I have lived in and visited places where you will get hassled by numerous aggressive panhandlers every trip down the sidewalk or to town. The people that live there just keep walking. that's how they survive and cope.
If you engage every worthless freak you come by you will not last.

I do think everyone needs a plain if the aggressor crosses the line and touches you or blocks your movement. A plain besides calling 911 or yelling "help", a plain that takes responsibility for your own survival and protection. what ever that might be gun, knife, ninja umbrella, ...

[BuckRub]

Agree you sometimes have to help yourself. You don't always have a police officer or someone else to , to run to for help.

[Oceanbob]

A lot of drama in this thread IMO.

:eek:

This is a PanHandler who is trying to get some money by selling something. He reminded the 18 year old girl he 'isn't going to hurt you' because of his daily experience is people are (rightly) afraid of him. Especially a young girl.

He spends his days selling worthless crap to make money to eat and perhaps buy drugs. (who knows). I doubt he carries a GLOCK.

He has probably been warned before about approaching (scaring) people in various parking lots.

The girl did everything right. She was right to be concerned and she was right to ask for an escort to the safety of her car.

What concerns me is how pathetic our Country has become when you can't even go shopping at Wally World without suiting up for a zombie war.

(Tongue in cheek alert). After watching the movie PURGE I'am thinking a once-a-year house cleaning of our streets, parking lots, parks and under the freeway overpasses would do a lot of good. ;)

Lesson learned: Always be prepared for any situation.

[SgtLumpy]

This is a PanHandler who is trying to get some money by selling something...

He reminded the 18 year old girl he 'isn't going to hurt you' because of his daily experience is people are (rightly) afraid of him...

He spends his days selling worthless crap to make money to eat and perhaps buy drugs. (who knows)...

I doubt he carries a GLOCK...



Four wild guesses on your part. You have absolutely no idea if any of those are accurate, they're just your optimistic guesses.

I didn't read a single post that suggested "suiting up for a zombie war".


Sgt Lumpy

[kilimanjaro]

He's selling nothing. His offer of a trinket or craft is a ploy to get within your personal space. Unless he's got a boxful of goods to sell, then he's shamming.

He's approaching young girls because he wants one of them. He's speaking reassuring phrases such as "I'm not going to hurt you.", so he can continue to get within your personal space.

Most women alone avoid bums and panhandlers. Every bum and panhandler knows this and will approach a male or pair of males first. They feel more secure and are more likely to give out a dollar or two.

This panhandler was aggressive and certainly one to be avoided.

[BuckRub]

Just a normal pan handler but given the opportunity anyone could do bad things. Glad it worked out for her this time but she needs some kind of plan and some training to go with it. If the right person comes along she's at their mercy until the let her go or other things happen.

[Jammer Six]

Four wild guesses on your part.
The opposite conclusions would still be wild guesses. To really explore the concept of wild guesses, take a look at the post below yours.

In more than half a century of helping panhandlers or telling them no, I've never had trouble. I've had trouble with carjackers and dope dealers, but not panhandlers.

While no amount of experience with panhandlers means they're all safe, there is a difference between a guy who choses to beg and a guy who choses to do armed robbery.

Most of society is two paychecks away from the street.

[MLeake]

In response to dayman:

One panhandler in Honolulu used to stand at an intersection near the grocery store where my ex would shop. He was harmless, but a scammer. My ex would shoot the bull with him when stopped at a red light. One day, when it was raining, she offered to loan him an umbrella. He declined, because he said people would give him more money if he looked pathetic.

A panhandler in Pagosa Springs, CO approached a friend and me. My friend felt bad for not giving him money, but he and I both knew two nice, Christian gentlemen who had offered this man construction or landscaping jobs, which he had declined.

In Thailand, adult panhandlers force small children to beg for them, a la Fagin. I would buy the kids some food, but would not give them money, as I felt success would only cause the adults to find more kids to exploit.

So, your intentions are good, but my experience leads me to believe you are only enabling scammers and con artists.

Otherwise, instead of asking for handouts, they would be asking for a hand up (such as a job).

[Jim243]

As to "sorry", well no salesman is going to take the first no for an answer no matter how politely or rudely it's delivered.

After her first response of "no thank you", he is no longer a salesperson but an assailant subject to arrest and imprisonment. Keep that in mind when you want to approach someone to sell them something. Just as to a rapist "NO" means "NO", anything else then is a criminal act. Assault, battery, reckless endangerment you name it, it WILL be used against you.

Jim

[publius]

SGTLUMPY got it right. I visit Waco, TX often and there are A LOT of homeless there. Several years ago I decided that if someone was obviously walking toward me (not passing me walking to or from the restaurant or store entrance) but someone who has made eye contact or whose body language indicates that they have keyed in on me; I will in no uncertain terms tell the them that they are close enough and to stop, look for an escape route and get ready to draw if needed. I have had to do it several times. So you might hurt someone's feelings who were harmless, boohoo for them.

[SgtLumpy]

Four wild guesses on your part.

...The opposite conclusions would still be wild guesses.

Yes they would be. And much more safe and sane.

This guy, no matter what his intentions that none of us know, scared this 18 y/o girl enough for her to go find a cop to walk her back to her car. Scared her enough to text her boyfriend to tell him something scared her.

Apparently she didn't want him in her space. If you're trying to suggest that she over-reacted and should have allowed into her space a homeless guy saying "I won't hurt you" that seems really misdirected.

If something like that happened to your daughter, how would you teach her to react?

I don't care if the guy's an axe murder or a Salvation Army bell ringer. I don't want them in my space. And I'm prepared to verbally command them to not approach.


Sgt Lumpy

[Jammer Six]

After her first response of "no thank you", he is no longer a salesperson but an assailant subject to arrest and imprisonment. Keep that in mind when you want to approach someone to sell them something. Just as to a rapist "NO" means "NO", anything else then is a criminal act. Assault, battery, reckless endangerment you name it, it WILL be used against you.

In Washington state, these statements have no merit.

Both assault and battery have extremely specific definitions, and continuing to talk to you after you've said "no" doesn't meet them.

[deepcreek]

Usually an armed robber would not choose a wal-mart parking lot to rob someone with cameras and a steady steam of witness.

I don't give beggars money but I have talked to a few. Some of them had interesting stories, some where worthless trash, some were crazy.

-One guy that used to beg in a town I lived in grew up there worked 2 jobs and one day his wife stepped out in front of a bus and it killed her he lost his marbles and ended up on the streets
(I heard the story from people that grew up with him).
-A couple I talked to were skizo crazy too crazy to apply for help so they were just stuck in an endless survival cycle of begging and surviving.
-A couple were savage alcoholics trying to stay drunk.

Just because someone is homeless or a beggar doesn't mean they are a savage zombie that needs to be held at gun point. Keep walking and ignore them, Just part of life in the city.

[Jammer Six]

Not to mention the opposite: get rude enough with a panhandler and you might turn a non-event into a shooting.

In my book, there's no issue here.

If something like that happened to your daughter, how would you teach her to react?
My daughter is in her early thirties, and I taught her how to react many, many years ago. I taught her to be kind, to be polite, to give money if she felt like it and that there was almost never anything there to fear.

What did you teach your daughter?

[allaroundhunter]

So jammer, if this happened to your daughter you would have told her that she overreacted and should not have wasted the officer's time?

[Jammer Six]

No. I would have told her whatever she did was fine, because she was there and I wasn't.

If she asked the cop for help, that was fine.

If she gave the guy money, that was fine.

And if he's laying dead with a full magazine in him, that's fine, too.

I have no idea where you got your words, but I have my suspicions.

I'm thinking some of you need to start giving the women around you a little more credit. They've survived this long.

[MLeake]

Using that logic, Jammer Six, you should respect the bad feeling the young lady in this case had.

[SgtLumpy]

What did you teach your daughter?

That a person, no matter what gender, no matter how dressed, that approaches and says "Miss I won't hurt you" is someone to rapidly get away from.

That's what I'd teach my daughter, son, mom, dad, self, anyone.

In what universe is "Miss, I won't hurt you" an acceptable statement for any stranger to say to someone?



Sgt Lumpy

[BuckRub]

Let me chime in again. I have an 18 yr old daughter. If she was walking in store and told man no, that means no. If he persisted, I gave my daughter a lesson to pull her pistol out and aim it at man and tell him again to leave. Here in Texas an 18 yr older doesn't have a right to carry conceiled until 21 but in the real world I believe when a person is mature enough and smart enough and a young lady at that, who's gonna procesucute a young lady for having a pistol for self defense? What you gonna charge them with- unlawful carry? A young lady acting in a mature way just defending her personal space. There's no way if I were the responding to this call that I would cite the young lady. Just tell her she did a good job and tell man that people have their space and they don't want it violated and tell him he's lucky she didn't shoot him. Right/wrong. Just my beliefs. We do things different in these little towns where I live. I guess she could also be charged with Deadly conduct, again here where I live it ain't gonna happen. Lets face it, Our world is so screwed and getting worse. You do bad things and its considered good and good things considered bad. Judicial system is a joke and people have bleeding hearts for all the wrong reasons. Just do right and don't harp on people trying to take care of their self

[Jammer Six]

Leake, you're reading what you're watching for rather than what I wrote.

I've never questioned what the young lady thought or did, because that would be against my beliefs. I didn't even question the cop, even though what little has been said about him sounds questionable, at best.

The proper tactical response for just about everything is to drive an Abrams main battle tank and deploy mech infantry into overwatch positions before you make any moves. That will protect you from just about any scenario or trap a civilian in the United States can set up against you. It will even protect you against most police responses, at least for a while.

But it's ridiculous.

So somewhere between the combined arms platoon and "on foot, in a bikini and barefoot", you need to split the hair and decide that this is the point at which the balance is acceptable.

My daughter does not live in fear, because I taught her many, many things other than how to deal with panhandlers. Clearly, we both accept a different point on the scale than what is being promoted here. And we're both cowards.

Furthermore, I don't believe for a second that everyone here does the things that have been listed. (Avoiding all panhandlers, screaming "no" at them, or any of the other testosterone spraying systems mentioned.)

My responses to this thread have not been about the young lady in question, they have been about the ridiculous, fear-based, Sidewalk Commando advice given to a young man with an honest concern.

If the lady feels the need, I suggest classes, and I suggest avoiding male instructors.

I also carry fives (singles if you don't have the means to give fives away) and they go a long ways towards dealing with panhandlers. But that's me, and it's not the way everyone does it, nor is it the way everyone can do it.

[BuckRub]

There's a lot of scammers out there, we never know. I don't have a problem with giving two-three dollars here and there but if a person comes up to me and try's to use the intimidation card, I'll give him 15. 15 rounds pointed straight at his face. I'm glad where I live I've never seen anyone asking for money. I guess they know if they did they'd get treating this way if they acted up so the best way would be to move to the city and prey on the weak (some people).

[DennRN]

I work in a downtown area where there was a rash of muggings and flash mobs last summer. A lot of people at my work have to walk to and from work to get to public transit at night time or early morning.

I actually got worried enough about my female coworkers to hand out a cans of pepper spray + cs and teach them how to use it. They seemed really comfortable with the idea when I showed them the pink key-chain holsters and told them that what I was holding wasn't a weapon. I asked them do you think a skunk is dangerous? How much do you respect a skunk? If I had one here, how close would you want to be to it? Would you want to make it angry?

I told them they should think like a skunk. A skunk avoids trouble, if it sees you, it turns and keeps moving away but it keeps track of where you are. If you corner a skunk it goes from pacifist to intimidating, telling you to back the #@$%-off. If you don't take the warning, it uses its spray and doesn't stick around for another second. Be that skunk!

They all accepted one and were actually eager to learn how to use it.

I taught them how to protect their face, hold their breath, spray face + chest, toss the can, and run away. I explained how tossing the can made it hard to catch them and and use it against them, how even if they didn't get a perfect shot off, that running away would give the tear gas a chance to blur the vision and make it hard to give chase while choking and coughing. That having used it and escaped, they now had the responsibility to protect their sisters by calling the cops giving a description and letting them know they were covered in UV die.

They wanted me to bring more in, which I did.

[SgtLumpy]

...but if a person comes up to me and try's to use the intimidation card, I'll give him 15. 15 rounds pointed straight at his face. ...

Clearly that is a disproportionate response.

There's clearly more than one opinion on appropriate response. Whatever your opinion is, I suggest thoroughly running the scenario(s), just as you would in a shooting scenario. Remaining safe and alive with your property intact while being less than friendly with a good guy beats being hurt, dead or having your property stolen while being repeatedly courteous to a bad guy.


Sgt Lumpy

[SgtLumpy]

Not to mention the opposite: get rude enough with a panhandler and you might turn a non-event into a shooting.

Now you're getting more and more silly. Sounds like you're now blaming the victim.

If telling a panhandler NO turns the event into a shooting, that pretty much proves that the guy isn't an innocent and wonderful guy. There's some instability there. And it's NOT on the part of the victim.

Look, if someone's begging, he might be a nice guy but he's at the lowest point in his psyche, short of being dead. Here's a guy in survival mode, with no place to sleep and not sure when he'll eat next. Suggesting to an 18 y/o girl or to anyone that it's ok to engage the guy or worse, take out your wallet and start flashing currency, is just plain running against the grain of all kinds of common sense survival.

It's not a zombie response to tell a person, strongly, NO. It's a wise, safe, and overwhelmingly recommended response. It's a response that I can pretty much guarantee is taught by every self defense instructor, woman's awareness class and recommend by every police agency in the universe.

I think, Jammer, you're kind of arguing just for the sake of arguing. That's ok, I guess. You have the right to suggest to your loved ones whatever it is you want in terms of their personal safety. My suggestions are clearly a lot more proactive and safety oriented.

Happy that it's me that teaches the one's I love how to deal with something like ths.


Sgt Lumpy

[PawPaw]

I visit Waco, TX often

I haven't been to Waco in a while, but two must-stops in that town are the Texas Ranger Museum, and there's this ratty old steakhouse outside of town, (can't recall its name) that serves a magnificent steak. It might be time to crank the truck and head west, see what new displays the Rangers have up, and get a good steak.

[Slopemeno]

If you think Waco is a hotbed of homelessness you should try SF or Portland.

Look- some good points in this thread. I think:

Be firm, but polite. Preserve what dignity this person might have remaining. I always use a flat "no thanks". Note how I typed that out. Not "NO THANKS!"- just a flat, level, "no thanks". Don't elaborate. Our business is concluded. Farewell. I mean- do you do everything that anybody tells you to do? Really? Healthy boundaries and all that....

I'm pretty sure how *we* respond can influence how they will respond. Life is full of lessons like that. Are we really letting the urchin decide what the next step is? JammerSix isn't blaming the victim- he's making a very, very fine point that I think many people miss.

WallMart parking lots are full of low-level scammers like this. Most of these types aren't even truly homeless- they're living locally, or motel-dwelling, and their panhandling pays the rent. If we had to assign a real number to the percentage of those folks who are real opportunistic criminals- what do we suppose that number is? 2% ? Annoyance? High. Real risk? Low.

By the way- your daughter did just fine. At the end of the day she went home, nobody had to go to the emergency room to get the interocular pressure in their left eye checked...a security guard had to walk to the parking lot- oh well.

And guys- if we're really that concerned about the ladies in our lives- please remember the statistics on who is most likely to assault them. It's someone they know. Not a stranger.

[MLeake]

One of the past ladies in my life was assaulted as a child by someone she knew - a vagrant her minister father had taken in. Charity is fine, but even "2%" is a risk.

As far as how I respond to panhandlers, I will normally start with direct eye contact and a polite but firm, "No thanks."

If the panhandler gets more assertive, but not implicitly aggressive, I will point out that last I looked, military recruiters were hiring; or, "yeah, the economy sucks, I just got back from Afghanistan."

That usually gives them a hint, if the first "no thanks" did not suffice.

So far, I have not even had to use the Sicilian glare I inherited from my mother's side.

[BuckRub]

The woman did good but what's good? She went to store and asked officer to walk her out. She could have walked out alone but just because she was not injured we say "She did good". What if she was attacked? What would we say? Glad it worked out but I'm guessing she had no plan, well maybe run. She still needs some training in case it goes south the next time. There will be a next time!

[manta49]

She did the right thing as the outcome shows, I don't see what else she could or should have done


No. I would have told her whatever she did was fine, because she was there and I wasn't.

If she asked the cop for help, that was fine.

If she gave the guy money, that was fine.

And if he's laying dead with a full magazine in him, that's fine, too

You would have thought it was fine if you daughter shot someone for approaching her something that she could end up in jail for.

PS I doubt if similar happened to my wife here she would even tell me as she would not see it as threatening.

[BuckRub]

I don't see where she did anything special. I mean she said no and walked away -wow she did exactly as trained, she did good. ? Yea she did good she walked away! What would she of done if he grabbed her arm? Maybe scream - wow you did good again. What if it were a dark parking lot no cameras or people?- you can't be paranoid , have to keep your cool and think and act. Everytime you don't always have the option to leave or have someone to run to or.... Sometimes you may have to use something's you learned and trained for whether it be grab OC spray and use it, maybe just grab it, maybe grab your gun and sometimes maybe even use it. Even though I'm a police officer in a small town things do sometimes happen after you say no and try to leave. Have calls all the time when people don't have a plan and have to take what they get then report it. We have to have a plan/s for when things go wrong. This world is very far from being perfect. You may have a plan ands train and a situation may still go bad on you but sometimes it just happens that way. But one out of a hundred. The other 99 percent you can do so much to help yourself. Fail to plan equals plan to fail.

[Evan Thomas]

Good doesn't have to mean "special." The situation made her uncomfortable, she did what she thought she needed to do to be (and feel) safe, and everybody walked away. That's a good outcome.

Was this situation out of the ordinary for many of us? Maybe not, but it made her and the OP uncomfortable. There's no need to over-analyze it or bicker over what the "correct" response is in a situation like this. Is she going to start carrying OC and get some self-defense training? I'd bet she is, and I hope Dakota will keep us updated.

I think this one has gone as far as is useful.