View Full Version : Need help to I.D. black powder pistol
Limitool1
May 17, 2013, 12:35 PM
Hello... Can anybody help me ID this pistol. My late father was a woodworker, machinist, and home taught gunsmith all in one. I watched him as a child (I'm 58 now) make stocks, parts and assemble many type of firearms. I have NO IDEA if he made most of this pistol at the shop from parts or ?????. I watched him make a beautiful black powder long rifle using parts from a "Janssen Sons & Co." black powder shotgun. So does anyone recognize this firearm??? The only markings to identify from is on the lock plate. In from of hammer in very small print on lock plate is "E. THOMAS". And... on far left side of lock plate bottom are 2 birds?... maybe pheasants. Anybody have any ideas of pistols origins aside from him just making it up as he went along??? Thanks... Brad
woodnbow
May 17, 2013, 01:36 PM
I don't have a clue except it looks like a percussion version of a kentucky style pistol or maybe his idea of a hawken belt pistol? Whatever it is supposed to be it IS beautiful. He did a wonderful job in my opinion, nice wood and stain, just an overall attractive pistol. Being built by your pa it is also priceless...
Doc Hoy
May 17, 2013, 02:52 PM
...Is very much like the CVA colonial pistol, however I think the overall length of your pistol exceeds that of the Colonial.
I dead give-away on that score would be a marking on the barrel which denotes Spanish manufacture at a firm called Jukar.
I can tell you that Jukar did not put the expense into the wood components that is clearly visible in the stock of your pistol.
Doc Hoy
May 17, 2013, 02:54 PM
Welcome to the forum.
bedbugbilly
May 17, 2013, 03:02 PM
My guess . . . and mind you, it is only a guess, is that this is a pistol your father put together from parts 'n pieces of older guns/spare parts. If you look at the lock, you'll see that the drum (piece that has the nipple installed in it), is surrounded by wood. Normally, this would be surrounded by and supported by the lock plate (on a front action lock such as this). My guess would be that the lock is off of a muzzleloading shotgun that he utilized on this pistol - either a single barrel or a side by side that this lock was the right hand lock of a pair. The barrel may have been a pistol barrel originally, or a section of an old rifle barrel. Is it rifled? What caliber would you guess it to be?
Regardless of if it is made up of older parts - and I've seen a lot of these "marriages" over the years, he certainly did a very nice job on it. I hope you'll keep it in the family as a keepsake. I would put more of a "sentimental" value on it than a monetary value. It's nice when someone "down the line" has things such as this to fondly remember the man who made it. :)
Jim Watson
May 17, 2013, 03:35 PM
Agree with bedbugbilly.
I think the lock is the Right off a shotgun, probably a breecloader because the lock plate does nt reach to the drum and nipple.
Limitool1
May 17, 2013, 03:47 PM
Hey, thanks guys for your opinions and thoughts. Those of you that say it has to be "priceless" because my dad made it are absolutely RIGHT. Inside the barrel it is not a smooth bore. Bare w/me folks I know NOTHING about gun parts, please. The barrels interior has 6 very shallow raised ridges. These ridges are about 3/16" wide per ridge. There're evenly machined within the barrels length. The "deeper" grooves are only a few thousands of an inch shallower than the raised ridges. They (grooves) are all straight down the barrels length. The wood is walnut as is the "ram rod". And, sorry I do NOT know the caliber... but would like to. I'll attach some more pictures and one of the rifle he made from an old black powder shotgun from Belgium.
Rifleman1776
May 17, 2013, 03:56 PM
It is a parts pistol. Not bad workmanship but stylistically is a zero representing nothing. A keepsake. If you shoot, shoot it. If not put on display.
Limitool1
May 17, 2013, 04:03 PM
I had a person tell me that they thought it was a "kit" once and that may very well be true... but the hammer part has pits and appears to be "old" but is still in very good shape. I watched him shoot it many times and was always so impressed when he did as a child. If it was a kit does anyone think that the lock plate would encompass the nipple area??? I, admit... I am an amateur.
Gaucho Gringo
May 17, 2013, 04:03 PM
I like the looks of the rifle. Looks like a one of a kind trigger guard.
Limitool1
May 17, 2013, 04:09 PM
Gaucho Gringo... The trigger guard on rifle (and butt plate) he machined from single pieces of solid brass... Brad
Limitool1
May 17, 2013, 04:50 PM
Doc... Thank you. There are NO OTHER marking on the metal and/or wood whatsoever. The only markings are on the lock plate. "E. THOMAS" and the birds mentioned on the above posts by me. NONE... are on the barrel. I'm kind of thinking it was a parts pistol also but I still have some concerns and would like some more opinions.
Woodnbow... Thank you... I totally agree. I got my areas of expertise (as most men) but I CANNOT rival my father in this arena. Thanks... Brad
Hawg
May 17, 2013, 05:04 PM
I do not believe it was a kit nor IMHO does it have any kit parts in it. It is definitely one of a kind with a rifled barrel, no rear sight and a shotgun bead up front. It appears to be a .32 and the barrel was probably cut down from a rifle barrel.
Captchee
May 17, 2013, 05:49 PM
I would also point out that the lock is not a Jukar or older CVA lock .. It could be a shotgun lock but its hard to say for sure but I would think so as well .
Being surrounded in would also doesn’t mean anything as for that type of lock , when place on pistols. It would be surrounded in wood . LePage and many other makers to include German pistol makers did just that with their locks . BUT , they also used a better bolster and breech design then the drum bolster you have .
The trigger and trigger guard also seem to be of good quality so if it was a kit gun then it was a better made one .
The stock shape is alittle odd . But not uncommon for kit guns . The transition from the stock to the breech of the barrel is also not brought down . But that’s also common in kits .
But either way , minus some shaping issues , it looks to be a well made piece regardless if it was a kit or made from parts . Your father did a rather nice job
Limitool1
May 17, 2013, 06:01 PM
Thanks Captchee... I'm just trying to educate myself on what my father did with this firearm and then I'll move onto another. I'd really like to hear something on the engraving I mentioned above. It has to be a clue if he used parts but I cannot find anything yet.... thanks, Brad
James K
May 17, 2013, 06:27 PM
The lock is not like those from kits. For one thing, it has only one screw holding it, normal for a shotgun lock which is fitted into the breech, but not for a percussion lock which needs more support. Also, the lockplate is the correct shape for the lock of a break-open shotgun, but not for a percussion gun. In addition, as Bedbugbilly pointed out, wood surrounding the drum is also not what we would see in a percussion pistol.
The engraving is most likely original to the shotguns the locks came from; such engraving was very commonly seen, even on inexpensive guns in the old days.
The workmanship is good and the guns are impressive, but I think value will have to be in memories rather than in any dollar figure.
Jim
Captchee
May 17, 2013, 07:50 PM
just a couple quick ones .
single bolt , wood surrounding lock .
again not hard to find Pedersoli offers the Kuchenreuter and Mang in Graz both of which were also originaly built like the below pistols
again not uncommon
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/Rifles/_70CUR.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/Rifles/_70CU12.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/Rifles/DSC01284.jpg
just a couple more
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/documentation/424484_detail3_max.jpg
here is one of an original Stutzer rifle thats in my collection .
again single bolt and wood surrounding lock it also should be noted that some of the best long range rifles ever made have this type of lock , serounded in wood . to name two more other then this stutzer all one has to do is look to some of the the the Mortimer and Whitworth rifles
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/DSC00137_zps4f333e07.jpg
need more ?????
also break open sxs locks have a small tab that patrudes fromt he front so that it will lock into the forward part of the reciever
here is a muzzleloading SXS thats being converted to flintlock . notice the lock . if you look in the back of the photo you will see an original with the very same type of locks . that original is a german made SXS dating to 1850 .
also one time in my collection . i assure you that neather have locks that fit to the breech
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/SXS/dailylogs09-22-07004-1.jpg
Now here is the reason I don’t think this is a SXS lock . At least a slim chance of it being one as there is always a possibility .
If you look at the placement of the bolt screw , its forward and in a location that if used on a muzzle loading SXS , would put it through the standing tree . The reason for that is that the up curve of the lock plat matches a cut out in the breech plug and the standing tree drops strait down , which would start at the top angle
Normally that bolt will be up higher and back , not readily visible until the hammer is cocked back or only partly visible with the hammer down . More so on double hammered breech loaders which often require the left hand hammer to be cocked back , so as to expose the lock screw .
Captchee
May 17, 2013, 08:34 PM
PS.
the engraving is english scroll and was done alot of diffrent firearms to include revolvers
in fact if you look at the pair of LePage pistols i posted , you will see near the very same patern .
swathdiver
May 18, 2013, 01:29 AM
It's a whatever your Dad's last name was. He likely made it from parts around his shop and loosely based it on a Kentucky pistol to his own creation. Very nice looking pistol!
Did you check to see if it was loaded?
Measure the bore, get some real black powder, olive oil, patches, ball, caps and enjoy what Dad created!
4V50 Gary
May 18, 2013, 10:15 AM
Agree with swathdiver. I suspect your father made it from parts he had laying around. He would have been an interesting man to have met.
Limitool1
May 19, 2013, 09:59 AM
Thanks for the input guys. Yea... it's unloaded. I shot the gun (pistol & rifle) with my dad when I was around 25. Damn... that was 28 YEARS AGO!!!! And I'm not worried about the $$$$ value so much. All of you who says it should be worth more to me are absolutely right. My main inquiry is just figuring out now "what they are" and/or what parts he made and what parts he adapted. into his own configuration. The rifles lock plate came from an old Belgium black powder shotgun and the rest he machined himself. But this pistols lock plate still remains a mystery. The only clues are the ones I mentioned above. That's guys for reviewing.... Brad
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