View Full Version : Help IDing a revolver
ghengiskhan
March 9, 2013, 03:00 PM
I've found myself with some "new" percussion cap firearms, all are clearly marked as to what they are except one:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/npconnor/IMG_1293_zps618f224d.jpg
Only markings:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/npconnor/IMG_1294_zpsb82923f2.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/npconnor/IMG_1299_zps9ad196f8.jpg
Nothing else is on the revolver except a serial number in the 66xxx range. Any idea on how to determine the caliber? A .451 ball seems like it will go into the cylinder... Can I shoot .457? How do I determine the charge?
Willie Sutton
March 9, 2013, 03:30 PM
Probably a Uberti, lift the loading lever and see if there's anything on the bottom of the BBL marked.
It's a copy of a Remington 1858 New Model Army, in case that's not already clear.
25 grains of fffG, a .457 ball, and some #11 caps would make it work... ;)
Willie
.
spitpatch
March 9, 2013, 03:42 PM
I think the AC tells us it was made in 1977.:)
ghengiskhan
March 9, 2013, 03:46 PM
Willie,
such a prompt response! :)
Thanks for the info, where can I find a scooper I've got 2 cans of FFFg that are quite old but have been stored in an ammo can. I also have a number of tins of #12 caps - I tossed one on and it fit snuggly. Will a #11 be better?
Thanks for the info on the copy; I have inherited 3 hand guns and 2 long guns - so it's as though someone has pushed me off into the deep end into all this. I've never fired a black powder firearm but this is... exciting? ;)
Under the loading arm is the number "5" and nothing else.... the plot thickens.
spitpatch
March 9, 2013, 04:13 PM
I might be wrong. But I don't think it's a good idea to store powder in a ammo can.
Whatever cap you use on the pistol make sure they fit snug.
44 Dave
March 9, 2013, 04:28 PM
I came across a can of my FFFg I had not used from in 40 years, that old Dupont stuff just as good as the GOEX I bought last week.
Real black powder will last 300 years as illustrated with the canon in a museum storage out East some where. Best kept dry but can be reclaimed, but don't dry it in your stove.
robhof
March 9, 2013, 05:21 PM
Had the same experience as 44, had a 3/4" bore model cannon that I put away in an ammo box back in 1969, with 1F some #11 caps and packet of cannon fuse, the caps were for a kit gun that got lost. My brother and I found it when we were clearing my mother's house a few years ago and we poured down some powder, added some wadding and packed it, lit the fuse and all was well. I even used the caps on my ROA and they worked fine.:D:cool::rolleyes:
Hawg
March 9, 2013, 05:44 PM
A .454 ball would be easier to load.
mykeal
March 9, 2013, 08:32 PM
I believe it's the Euroarms-manufactured replica of the Remington-Beals First Model Army Revolver (actually a transition model), the forerunner of the Remington 1858 New Army.
.44 caliber, it will use .454 or .457 soft lead balls over 30 grains fffg real black. Cap size is a crap shoot, could be anything.
Hellgate
March 9, 2013, 09:05 PM
I agree with Mykeal. A straight on side view would be more "diagnostic" but it looks like there are not as many barrel threads showing on this gun as in the other makes (Uberti, ASM, Pietta) that actually produce a copy of the 1863 New Model Army 44 that has about 6 threads showing whereas this one has only 2 or 3 exposed as in the late Beals model. The Euroarms/Armi San Poualo guns are the lightest weight, smallest gripped of the Italian repros. I like them.
BirchOrr
March 9, 2013, 09:40 PM
Please enlighten me...
:confused:
Birch
Hellgate
March 9, 2013, 10:52 PM
BirchOrr,
No problem with the .457" dia balls as long as they are of dead soft lead. I've not yet seen a 44 NMA that didn't do well with .454 dia balls but I have shot .457 w/o any problem. The larger ones are a little harder to ram but real hard lead could bend or shear the rammer pivot screw.
Doc Hoy
March 10, 2013, 05:34 AM
That means that you should find a maker's mark under the grips (You have to take them off) on the grip frame. It should be "DDG" (or is it "DGG"?) arranged in a triangle.
Means the manuf was Armi San Paolo who did a lot or Euroarms work.
PetahW
March 10, 2013, 11:26 AM
Please enlighten me...
When a soft/pure lead ball, a bit larger than the caliber, is rammed home in the cylinder/chamber, a very thin ring of lead is shaved off the ball, ensuring a tight, flame-proof seal at the front of the chamber.
That said, "44's" of the ML era are not necessarily the same size/caliber as what today is referred to as a "44" - why it's a good idea to try a different size ball.
Ditto .36 cal's.
.
Hellgate
March 10, 2013, 01:04 PM
You might also find the DGG right at the bottom of the barrel under the rammer or under the cylinder pin right where the barrel emerges from the frame.
ghengiskhan
March 10, 2013, 02:06 PM
For those wanting a a better side view:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/npconnor/IMG_1302_zpsbde88b25.jpg
Only markings under the grips:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/npconnor/IMG_1303_zps4227d03b.jpg
This couldn't have been built from a kit, could it?
No markings under the barrel under the rammer or near the cylinder.
Hellgate
March 10, 2013, 02:34 PM
The lack of barrel threads showing and the lower front sight is highly suggestive of a ASP/Euroarms gun. On a couple of my ASP/Euros I had to order taller front sights as they shot a little high. They also had dovetailed front sights (like Ubertis, unlike Piettas) which made them easy to replace.
P.S.
Great photo! Did you pull the cylinder pin and look under it for the logo?
Hawg
March 10, 2013, 03:09 PM
Means the manuf was Armi San Paolo who did a lot or Euroarms work.
Umm not exactly. Euroarms was Armi san Paolo to begin with. They changed the name in 2002.
I agree it looks like an ASP Beals.
ghengiskhan
March 10, 2013, 04:39 PM
Well well well, I should probably hold my tongue unless I'm absolutely certain.
Look what I found under some new light:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/npconnor/IMG_1305_zps5556ce23.jpg
I'm just waiting on some bullet lube (ball lube? :eek:) and I'll be taking it out and shooting along with an Antonio Zoli .58 Navy Model 1861(?).
One last question on a slightly different tone; what's a NIB/never fired Ruger Old Army Single Six in .457 worth? I see they stopped making them a few years ago. It's not a collectors revolver, correct?
North East Redneck
March 10, 2013, 05:12 PM
The ROA is worth what someone will pay you for it. I'm looking at one right now, SS 7.5 inch. Owned presently by the original owner who has all the paper work and claims he only fired 38 rounds out of it. Its going for $400. The same gun on gun broker could sell for twice that amount.
But why sell it? They are nice guns and shoot well. I believe they quit production in '08.
These guns are not modeled after any original design. People still collect them though.
Doc Hoy
March 10, 2013, 05:47 PM
Hang onto it.
When you get bit by the cap and ball revolver bug, (which the Remington will surely do) You'll want that ROA.
Hawg
March 10, 2013, 05:51 PM
When you get bit by the cap and ball revolver bug, (which the Remington will surely do) You'll want that ROA.
I was bit by the C&B bug 44 years ago. It never made me want one.:D
mykeal
March 10, 2013, 06:07 PM
Just goes to show there are those out there who
just
don't
get
it.:rolleyes:
:D
Hawg
March 10, 2013, 06:15 PM
Not gonna get it either Mikey boy. Don't wanna get it.:D
Doc Hoy
March 10, 2013, 06:32 PM
...That a single reason for selling this revolver would be Hawg's. I think I am not putting words in his mouth when I say that if period correct revolvers are important then the ROA doesn't really make it. It is only period correct for the years beginning sometime around the middle of the 20th century.
I like them because of the quality. I had an opportunity to buy my fourth ROA at a gunshow two weeks ago for four hundred bucks. I am still kicking myself for letting it go.
When you have the opportunnity to compare the performance of the Remington to the ROA, you will see that the ROA is really a well engineered shooting tool.
That quality engineering does not extend to the design of the loading lever. I can't for the life of me understand the rational for designing the revolver such that it takes three hands to put it together in the field. My only criticism.
mykeal
March 10, 2013, 08:22 PM
I have no quarrel with Hawg's antipathy towards the ROA. I just like to poke him in the ribs a little now and then. He can stand it.
Historical accuracy is important to me too, but I also like the gun. Just a burden I have to live with.
North East Redneck
March 10, 2013, 10:56 PM
As Doc says the loading lever design is not good. It functions quite well for ramming a ball, but is not user friendly when breaking down the gun.
The quality of the gun and the way it shoots is well worth owning it. Hawg has no use for em, but others do. I'd keep it unless you need the $$. And personally, even if I needed the money, that's a keeper. Sell something else.
ghengiskhan
March 12, 2013, 05:59 PM
Read and understood. I doubt I'll get rid of it anytime soon. It doesn't take up any room in secure storage so I can't justify getting rid of it.
We'll see how I like cap 'n' ball shooting - who knows; it could become a new favorite!
Doc Hoy
March 13, 2013, 06:04 AM
Your Remington will act a good bit like the ROA in terms of operation. The ROA is just a more refined experience start to finish.
I have two predictions which I will respectfully mention:
1. You will eventually shoot that ROA.
2. More revolvers including Colt clones are in your future.
Noz
March 13, 2013, 11:35 AM
Hawg, I agree completely. No interest in them at all.
Hawg
March 13, 2013, 05:11 PM
Hawg, I agree completely. No interest in them at all.
I knew I couldn't possibly be alone.:cool:
Hellgate
March 13, 2013, 06:06 PM
Uh, ....... Me too? (No use for or interest in the ROA)
ghengiskhan
March 13, 2013, 06:25 PM
More? Colts? Ugh... I think I have enough! ;)
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/npconnor/Revolvers/IMG_1237.jpg
Fingers McGee
March 13, 2013, 07:06 PM
Is this confession time at ROAA (Ruger Old Armies Annonymous)? :confused:
Hello, my name is Fingers McGee and I have a pair of ROAs. I succumbed to an evil spell cast upon me by The Brisco Kid, Oliver Loving, Wyandot Jim, Deacon Stone, and J-Bar. They forced me to buy a pair of ROAs and................, as much as I hate to admit it...................., they made me shoot them too. :o
I swear though, I did not enjoy it, and have hidden the offending revolvers in the back of my gunsafe behind an 1884 Trapdoor so I won't be tempted to use them ever again. They're only being kept for "Investment Purposes".
Noz
March 14, 2013, 09:11 AM
I bow to Finger's superior knowledge in many things. I was appalled by his purchase of the ROAs. I only regained my respect for him when he told me he had hidden them away and would only bring them out in case of a huge offer.
woodnbow
March 14, 2013, 10:53 AM
have issues with the loading lever design... If I were after quick reloads with spare cylinders I could conceed that point but if that were the case, why bother installing the rammer at all?
I've always liked the way you can pull the loading lever, rammer and base pin with one hand, replacing it seems to me to be very easy as well and I'm only average in terms of manual dexterity... YMMV but quit hatin' on Bill's best design!! :p
Hellgate
March 14, 2013, 11:48 AM
I forgive you Fingers. Remember, those things are like Kryptonite. Don't touch them. They are toxic. The only reason to have one (or in your case, TWO) is for investment purposes so that some day you can profit from someone's greater foolishness.
Fingers McGee
March 14, 2013, 12:18 PM
More? Colts? Ugh... I think I have enough!
but, this is a good start
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/DSCN0995.jpg
sebou
April 26, 2013, 01:09 PM
Whaooooo nice collection ! Congrats
Fingers McGee
April 26, 2013, 04:24 PM
Hey Sebou. Where you been hiding?? Haven't seen you post in awhle.
Doc Hoy
April 26, 2013, 07:23 PM
1860s and rifles
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Dochoy/Collection/Collection001_zpsa2bc43b7.jpg (http://s617.photobucket.com/user/Dochoy/media/Collection/Collection001_zpsa2bc43b7.jpg.html)
1851 patterns
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Dochoy/Collection/Collection007_zps26593780.jpg (http://s617.photobucket.com/user/Dochoy/media/Collection/Collection007_zps26593780.jpg.html)
Smaller revolvers
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Dochoy/Collection/Collection004_zps7a7fe23b.jpg (http://s617.photobucket.com/user/Dochoy/media/Collection/Collection004_zps7a7fe23b.jpg.html)
Doc Hoy
April 26, 2013, 07:26 PM
Closed frame and Dragoons
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Dochoy/Collection/Collection003_zpsff6dd0ed.jpg (http://s617.photobucket.com/user/Dochoy/media/Collection/Collection003_zpsff6dd0ed.jpg.html)
Cartridge revolvers
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Dochoy/Collection/Collection008_zps13470d9d.jpg (http://s617.photobucket.com/user/Dochoy/media/Collection/Collection008_zps13470d9d.jpg.html)
ROAs and two I don't have cases for
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Dochoy/Collection/Collection009_zpsde723e2a.jpg (http://s617.photobucket.com/user/Dochoy/media/Collection/Collection009_zpsde723e2a.jpg.html)
Doc Hoy
April 26, 2013, 07:31 PM
A .41 caliber five shot Smith and Wesson copy that my father brought back from China during WW II. And a .32 that my Great Aunt carried in her purse up until the last time she was out of the house. The occassion was two weeks before she crossed over to the other side. She was out with my folks drinking gin and tonic at a bar in Naples, FL. Had the .32 in her purse. She was 99 years of age and almost completely blind. My dad made sure the .32 was unloaded.
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Dochoy/Collection/Collection010_zps04cdd87c.jpg (http://s617.photobucket.com/user/Dochoy/media/Collection/Collection010_zps04cdd87c.jpg.html)
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