44/45 Magnum VS. 45-70 Do_All-Levergun

[wilkup]

I want a lever action rifle and here are the rifles in the running:
Rossi M92 44 Mag or 45 LC
Marlin 1895GBL 45-70

I plan on using this rifle for camping, plinking, and hunting (deer, elk, black bear - We don't get anything bigger than that here in WA that I know of.). Sort of a do-it-all short range woods gun to test the waters of long gun ownership ;) I'll be reloading my "fun rounds" whatever caliber I end up with, and would like to stay under $.25/round. Is that even possible with the 45-70? I won't be mounting a scope on it as it will not be used at ranges over 150 yards. I don't know if I covered all the bases, but it's enough to get the thread started.

On a side note - I'd be interested to know is whether or not there's a kit to convert the Rossi to a pistol grip stock similar to the Winchester 92 Trapper Takedown that came out a couple years ago. See link below.

http://www.armeriafontana.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Winchester-a-leva-1892-cal357-mag_1024x292.jpg

[WIN1886]

I'm partial to the 45-70.....I can regularly hit a 8" gong with my 1886 Winchester w peep sites at 250 yards with factory Fusion 300 grain ammo ! Of course I shoot a lot and also own a Marlin 1895 cowboy that gets a steady diet of handloads using 400 grain cast bullets which can produce very impressive groups at 100 yards for a good ole lever gun ! :) The other two choices ( 44 mag and 45LC ) sound like they would be good for a nice light lever gun......I've been thinking of getting a model 92 in 357 mag for a camp rifle !

[tahunua001]

45-70 can be loaded, hotter and heavier than 45 or 44 so for heavy game and longer range shots the 45-70 beats the others out. but in addition you can also load extremely low velocity and extremely light ammo for plinking and close range varmints. my favorite is 45 round ball with a .22 charge behind it. sounds like a 22lr going off but it decapitates squirrels :D

[Salmoneye]

It's pretty clear to all of us right-thinking individuals...

You require a 336 in .35 Remington...

http://users.gmavt.net/ubavt/gifs/duck.gif

[wilkup]

tahunua001 - I'm leaning towards the 45-70, but would like to know what I can expect to shell out as far as reloads go. Can I put 8-20 grains of powder with <300gr bullet and shoot softer, less punishing rounds like your .22lr loads without blowing anything up?

Salmoneye - There's a sort of irrational nostalgia I associate with the calibers I listed and right now there's not really anything I can think of that would change my opinion. Thanks for another option though :)

[mehavey]

I own both -- `94 Marlin in 45 Colt, and a`95 Marlin GBL in 45-70.

For fun and light packing for most things -- including short range deer: the `94.
For what you mentioned, however: "deer, elk, black bear" it's the `95 in 45-70

As a reloader w/ a 45-70, you can put a Lyman 295gr LFN over 22gr of AA5744 and get a very pleasant 1,150fps out of the Guide Gun.

Or you can hammer out a RCBS 500gr FN at 1,500fps over pretty much a full case of Alliant ARComp and kill anything on this continent.

[B.L.E.]

I'm leaning towards the 45-70, but would like to know what I can expect to shell out as far as reloads go. Can I put 8-20 grains of powder with <300gr bullet and shoot softer, less punishing rounds like your .22lr loads without blowing anything up?



10 grains of Unique makes a 300 grain cast lead bullet go about 1000 fps. Trail Boss is another good choice for light bullet plinking loads. Unfortunately, .45 pistol bullets don't work well in a .45-70. The pistol bullets are .452-.454 diameter, the .45-70 rifle needs .458-.459 diameter bullets. Therefore, 300 grains is about the lightest bullet you can buy for the .45-70. I tried shooting .45 Maxiballs for muzzleloaders in mine and accuracy was very poor. Ditto with .457 round balls. One of these days, I'm going to try loading cloth patched roundballs in a .45-70 case and a light charge of black powder + filler just to see what happens.

[tahunua001]

I don't normally reload, when I do I do it under the close supervision of my brother in law. he is constantly fiddling with loads for 4570 and if I recall correctly it does not require a whole lot of powder to push a bullet. I know that he has been working on a proprietary load that includes birdshot behind a round ball that is very low recoil and low velocity that is a blast to shoot but I don't recall his charge.

[big al hunter]

Of those you listed the 45-70 for all that you want to do. I haven't priced components for loading, seems to me it might cost more than .25 a shot depending on bullet selection. The other cartridges are marginally acceptable for deer and black bear. They are light for elk unless the shot is close, perfectly placed, the correct angle and bullet type. I would not recommend a novice hunter use the lighter calibers for elk. If nostalgia is your determining factor what about 30-40 krag. It is a cartridge from the black powder days and is a good elk round.

[wilkup]

Today 07:16 PM B.L.E.
10 grains of Unique makes a 300 grain cast lead bullet go about 1000 fps. Trail Boss is another good choice for light bullet plinking loads. Unfortunately, .45 pistol bullets don't work well in a .45-70. The pistol bullets are .452-.454 diameter, the .45-70 rifle needs .458-.459 diameter bullets. Therefore, 300 grains is about the lightest bullet you can buy for the .45-70.

Could you guess what a box of those light loads would cost? I'm just trying to get an idea how much more than 45 ACP this new hobby is going to cost me :)

I did know pistol and rifle fire different calibers, but wasn't aware the smallest .458-.460 is around 300 grain. Oh well, it appears this is the caliber for me and what I'm trying to do. No use asking so much of the 44/45s by loading to super magnum status.

Thanks. Keep the info coming!

[B.L.E.]

The major cost is the bullet and if you want to get the price of shooting under .25/shot, you will pobably have to cast your own.
I checked prices from Oregon Trails and others and it looks like around 20 to 25 cents per bullet for 300 grain cast bullets.
Primers will cost you about 4 cents each. Smokeless powder is about $28/lb and a pound is 7000 grains so a 10 grain charge is about 700 shots out of a pound.

[wilkup]

Thanks for the quick math. Checking out cost of casting my own now. No wonder this round cost so much in the store! It'd cost as much as premium 45 rounds to load my own! YIKES! Being able to have just one gun makes it all worthwhile though.

[Bear River]

A 405 grs Lee mold is around $26 a bottle of Alox and some WW lead and you can make all the bullets you want. The LR primers are 4 cents and your powder around 5 cents depending on which loads you choose. If you want a soft lead bullet use the flat stick ons they are close to pure lead. I load 45-70s for around ten cents per round.

[wilkup]

Bear River - Thanks for the information! That is right around what it costs to reload for my 45! That's amazing and I'm happy to hear that! 45-70 here I come!

Just to be clear - I'm fine paying a premium for the stuff I'm going to be hunting with, whether or not it's my own recipe, but for my fun-gun plinking rounds cheaper is better. 10 cents a round is perfect and WAY lower than I would have thought possible!

[2500ak]

I've got both a 1895 Guide Gun, and a Rossi M92, so I suppose I'll weigh in. They are both good, but for different reasons.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h219/MasterMind_88/DSC_0896-1.jpg

Rossi

Pros:
1)Extremely light (I have revolvers heavier than this thing)
2)Short lever stroke
3)More rounds in the tube
4)Cheaper factory ammo
5)Costs less
6)Stock has good LOP
7)Decent factory trigger break (imo)
8)Better balance

Cons:
1)Dove tail on the barrel is oversize (most aftermarket sights will not seat snugly)
2)Nightmare to take down and clean, complex dissassembly, lost of small parts.
3)Cannot mount sight base, or aftermarket sight on top of the receiver (though bolt and tang mounted sights exist for it)
4)No factory previsions for a sling
5)Wood the stock and forend are made from are of inferior quality
6)Brass goes flying everwhere upon ejection (fun to watch but if you're going to reload that brass it's annoying)
7)Safety is miniscule poorly made (can even unlock itself if the hammer falls on an empty chamber). It's far better to rely on an empty chamber or the half-cock.

Marlin

Pros:

1) Dissassembly involves taking out just one screw
2)Stronger round
3)Great quality stock
4)Stronger action
5)Smoother action
6)More maneuverable in the brush (shorter overall length)
7)Sling studs
8)Crossbolt safety (Works like any old crossbolt safety and is superior to the Rossi bolt-safety)

Cons:
Heavy
1)Newer ones tend to have defects (I had to have the front sight holes re-drilled on mine)
2)More expensive
3)Less rounds in the tube
4)Long stroke
5)Stock has a sort LOP
6)Trigger pull is heavier than it needs to be
7)Trigger can flop forward and backward (there is a part to fix this)


I like them both a lot. If you have bear in your area and want to take a companion pistol of the same caliber, your options are limited for the 45-70. Although there is always the BFR.

Factory .44 is cheaper than factory .45 iirc. Definitely a lot cheaper than factory 45-70. I usually get HSM 430 grain for bear loads in 45-70, that's 42$ for a box of 20. Leverlution is probably the best deal at 30$ for a box of 325 grain rounds that are quite accurate.

For .44 I get the cheap blazer stuff mostly. I want to say they're 240 grain, something like that. 35$ for a box of 50, but they're steel case so you can't reload them. For bear rounds I go with 305 grain hard casts also from HSM, which are 47$ for a box of 50.


Another thing to consider is the recoil. Since you'll be loading that won't be such a big deal, but 45-70 can be either very pleasant to shoot (Leverlution is), or very unpleasant. The .44 on the other hand is always pleasant. The overpressure and muzzle flash are worse on the 45-70 as well. It's just a louder, more powerfull round.

Of the two I'm tempted to say the Marlin comes with a better stock sight set, although being collapsible I've found it prone to collapsing when firing rounds which exhibit heavy recoil, this problem was solved when I replaced the stock stuff with Skinner Sights (can't say enough good things about these).

The Rossi buckhorn covers up the a good deal of it's sight pictures, which is obtrusive. The front sight on the Marlin also has a nice sight hood.

Another interesting thing to note is that I think .45 colt can be loaded for more muzzle energy than .44, I've heard that at least, although I don't have any experience with that caber. I'm partial to .44 myself.

It's a decent round, but compared to the 45-70 it doesn't look so beefy.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h219/MasterMind_88/DSC_0904.jpg

The .357 Magnum on the far right looks like a .22 by comparison.

At the end of the day I happen to think the Rossi is more fun at the range, but I'd rather have the 45-70 with me when I'm out in the back country, fishing, hunting, and so forth.

[bamaranger]

Had you not said "elk" I would vote .44 mag. believing your bears are black ones. Also, did I read right and gather this is your first long gun?

A .44 mag lever will not do it all, but it's a pretty good all arounder. But if you include critters over say what.....300 lbs, I guess the .45-70 crowd is right.

[Sport45]

I picked .444 Marlin for my all'round lever gun. I can use the same bullets as .44mag with light loads for plinking or heavier bullets with stiff loads of X-Terminator for "wish I hadn't shot that prone" type stuff. You can't do that with the .45/70 and .45 Colt because of the different bullet diameters.

And I seem to migrate away from mainstream cartridges anyway. Not on purpose, it's just worked out that way.

[B.L.E.]

About the .444 Marlin, some of the older rifles in that caliber had something like a 1 turn in 38" rifle twist and would not stabilize bullets heavier than 240 grain, or so I understand.
Maybe some of the newer guns have faster twist to take advantage of the newer heavier .429 bullets.

The ultimate plinking round for .44 magnum and other guns using a .429 bullet is a .433 muzzleloading round ball, weight about 122 grains.

[Sport45]

Mine has the 1:38 microgroove rifling and Hornady 265 FP and 300 XTP bullets seem to work just fine. I've read reports of folk using even heavier cast bullets, but they must be sized to about 0.432 inches.

[Edward429451]

Plant me with the 45/70 crowd here. I use Lees 405 also and that boolit does shoot. The Lyman 400gr FP is another good one.

For light loads or small game there is always the 155 gr collar button moulds. I have this mould in a six cavity and I'm not done working it up yet but I expect to be able to make a 50 yd small game round round out of it.

[wilkup]

Only because it takes the same caliber rounds a 44 Mag would. What's the trade-off when it comes to power between 444 and 45-70 though? It seems the larger case would offer the option for increased performance, if in the off-chance I ever needed a Whooly Mammoth killer.
Are they cheaper to be found in this caliber?

[smokiniron]

It's not one of the poster's stated choices, but wouldn't a 30-30 suffice? I recently purchased a Marlin 336 XLR SS in 30-30. With a 24" barrel, it's a little heavy, but should, with proper reloads, carry the needed foot-pounds to 300 yds. I'm reloading Hodgson's Leverevolution powder and Hornady's FTX flex-tip ammo in 160 gr. It's suitable for tube-guns. If your max ranges are 150 yards or so, this might suffice, and ammo is cheap and plentiful. Good plinker, and classic deer cartridge.

Any thoughts from the group?

[jmortimer]

For what O/P describes a .30-30 would be an excellent choice. Up to 100 yards, there would be little difference as the .45 Colt and .44 Mag with a 300 plus grain hard cast LBT WFN will shoot stem to stern on any critter and will shoot through any game animal on a broadside. Beyond 100 yards, the .45-70 would be better. The revolver calibers make more sense to me as you can get a matching handgun. Cost less to reload as well.

[kimbershot]

i have a contender carbine that weighs about 5lbs. reloading makes sense if you shoot other calibers as outlay for gear can be significant depending on your shooting activity.

i cast and load lee 405 gr. with starline brass. initial cost for brass--about .50 each. lead i got for free, powder and primer--you can do the math. the brass can be shot a number of times depending on how hot you want--this gets the cost per shot down.

my accuracy load is 35-36gr. 3031--it doesn't punish me--its accurate to 100yds and my hunting will be limited to 50-75yds. i've loaded hotter--but my shoulder looks like hamburger after several rounds and it's not much fun. i think you have more hunting/target options with the 45-70. ;)

[B.L.E.]

there would be little difference as the .45 Colt and .44 Mag with a 300 plus grain hard cast LBT WFN will shoot stem to stern on any critter and will shoot through any game animal on a broadside. Beyond 100 yards, the .45-70 would be better.

Well, theoretically anyway. In the real world out in the field, if you shoot a .45-70 at ranges longer than 100 yards, you better know the exact distance and know the exact holdover needed for that distance.

There's a big difference between clanging a steel ram at a known 500 meters and making a clean kill at real game at "that looks like between 300 and 400 yards away" ranges.

The higher velocitys achieveable with the 300 grain bullets makes for a flatter trajectory and may make them better choices for taking game at shooter estimated ranges.

[stalkingbear]

I don't see what would be wrong with a Savage model 99 chambered in .358 win or a Browning BLR in the same cartridge. Either 1 would be very accurate and powerful at the ranges he's going to be shooting. Besides if you ever do decide to scope it and/or take a longer shot the .358 win would be dandy for the job.

[Edward429451]

Only because it takes the same caliber rounds a 44 Mag would.

Yes but not the same bullets! My understanding is that typical 44 Mag Jacketed bullets are not constructed well enough to hold together and penetrate at the higher velocities of the 444 Marlin.

Hardcast lead boolits solve this hunting problem, but I wouldn't waste my 44 Mag bullets in the 444. In fairness, I have never owned a 444 or shot one so have no direct experience in what I have said. I have heard this from respected 444 owners here and there and so believe it. It makes sense. Handgun bullets have thinner jackets to expand at handgun velocities.

[stalkingbear]

Be aware that quite a lot of the .444s, especially older 1s, were made with "microgroove" rifling". That pretty much rules out cast bullet options if it does indeed have microgroove rifling.

[B.L.E.]

I dunno, a lot of .22's had microgroove rifling and seemed to work just fine with lead .22 lr bullets.
I don't think it's the rifling but the size of the microgroove bores that was the problem.
Sport45 claims that cast bullets have to be sized to .432 to work well in those barrels.
Jacketed bullets are actually copper patched soft lead bullets and it may be they more readily upset to seal a slightly oversized bore.

[wilkup]

With the mention of the 44 Mag taking the same caliber bullet of the 444 Marlin I became curious to see what this caliber is all about, being that I want a lever action that fires a fat bullet and leaves a hole on each side of what I'm shooting at. I realize the magnum rounds won't hold up at the higher velocity the 444 could shoot them at but wouldn't plan to shoot them very quickly. It's more to purchase lighter rounds so I can reload easy plinking rounds without casting my own.
After some searching around, I came upon an older three-part-article Marshall Stanton (Beartooth Bullets) wrote up about the round and the effectiveness it possesses in his Marlin 1895s. It's a long read, but extremely interesting. After reading it, I don't think I'd pass on a good deal in this caliber.
Here's a link to his article:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17

[Edward429451]

That pretty much rules out cast bullet options if it does indeed have microgroove rifling.

Oh, it does not. To get a microgroove to shoot you just size em fat. We got my buddy's microgroove 30/30 shooting real good with .311s with minimal to no leading.

[GeauxTide]

I voted 44 Mag, but I own a Marlin in 44 and a Win in 45 Colt.

[badlander]

I have both 45-70 and .45 Colt Marlins. Either one would be A good all round gun. The 45 can be loaded up to the lower 45-70 power with 300+grain bullets. will handel most game you are likely to encounter. If the big bears are A concern 45-70 is the one for you.

[wilkup]

We have big blacks(600lbs?) but nothing like the great bears up north, at least that I'm aware of...

I've started reading about the 444 Marlin and have added it to the list. I think at this point it's going to come down to whichever I can get the better deal on - 444M or 45-70.

[SteelChickenShooter]

To me deer, elk, black bear = Marlin 45-70
I have both the 44Mag and the 45-70 rifles.
The 44Mag is dialed in for carry in the woods where I have under 100 yard shots. The 45-70 is carried if I opt to go in a different direction where 200 yard shots across an open field are likely.
I'm no bear or elk hunter, but it seems to me those animals are a little big and tough for my little potent 44Mag. I'd use the 45-70 instead.

[Sport45]

You can also look at the 450 Marlin if you reload and don't mind straying off the beaten path.

[Deja vu]

I like the 357 magnum and the 45/70.

When I "Harvest" deer from my back porch I use the 357 because it is easier and less expensive to shoot and has taken more deer for me than any other round.

When I have to go and "hunt" I take the 45/70 because there are a few Grizzly bears here not to mention quite a few Black bears lots of wolves. I have never had any trouble with them but why take the chance.

[tulsamal]

Just to throw in a couple of different choices...

Paco tested a Legacy in .454 a few years back. He found the rifle could handle high pressure loads. If you are willing to search for the right vintage, it's an option.

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm

Then in 2007 Jeff wrote a review on a stainless version in .480. I own a .480 Alaskan so I would be highly tempted if I ever saw one of these when I had gun money in my hand. Jeff certainly had good results in his tests. Every time I read this review I want to buy one all over again!

http://www.gunblast.com/Puma480.htm

Gregg

[2500ak]

I remember Rossi used to make an M92 in .454. They had problems with the forend cracking so they discontinued them. I think it probably had more to do with the cheap wood they use for their furniture.

I really wanted one of those when I first started looking into lever actions. With the Casull round you've got almost as much power as a 45-70, in a light weight rifle, that holds a lot more rounds than the 45-70. You also have the ability to fire the 45 colt for target practice, and .454 for hunting (although it had to be loaded down the magazine with the mag spring tube removed, which was uniquely removable on the .454 model), kind of like loading a Marlin 60, or one of some of the Henry lever actions. The ammo is also lighter, less bulky, and you can take more of it with you.

But they stopped making them, that's why I compromised and got the .44 and the 45-70.

[WIN1886]

Most my range shooting is done with bulk ordered hardcast bullets that are handloaded to mild levels that can still knock down a deer quite handily yet are easy on the shoulder ! Have you seen the price of factory 45-70 ammo lately....is the price of lead really that high ? :eek: I may have to resort to getting a 223 so I can afford to shoot as much as I like ! :)

[Big Shrek]

Several posters mentioned the Marlin Micro-groove and issues with cast bullets, there are several good writeups at Marlin Owners
which cover the issue in great detail and give the method for resolving it...Fat Boolits are indeed the method...wider is better ;)
Also a little powder moderation can be helpful, for when one matches the bullet to the load to the barrel, you get better precision anyway ;)

[badlander]

One of the reasons I went to the .45 colt is lazyness. With my Dillon loader I can load hundreds of .45 colt in an hour. I don't get that speed with rifle rounds. So I don't mind burning up ammo. It is A concideration. those hot .45 Colt loads are nothing to sneeze at!

[wilkup]

To get the higher velocities out of a .45 Colt it looks like you need to load it to pretty high pressures, which I believe the 92 can take after reading through Paco Kelly's article - http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm, but the 45-70 seems to do it with a lot less pressure and can handle much larger bullets if I ever want to go after something really big.
The other consideration is that that the 30-30 and 35 Remington have power similar to the big pistol magnums, at least for the distances being looking at, maybe a little bit more...? Now, with that knowledge and turnign this around, if the 35 Remington is considered more than adequate for elk and black bear, it stands to reason that the 44 Mag and 45 Colt would have the desired power out of a rifle.
Sorry for that curve ball at the end, I just realized it and thought I'd throw it out there to see what everyone thought.
Thanks. Everyone's help and thoughts have been very appreciated =)

[rickyjames]

ok, you want a lever gun. you posted some good calibers. you also neglected possibly the best caliber for the game you mention and also some of the least expensive and most available over the counter ammo you will find. the good old 30/30.
i have a marlin 45/70, winchester 44 mag and 45 lc, and a winchester 30/30. for hunting i would reach for the 30/30 or the 45/70 without question. odds are you will always find 30/30 ammo on the shelf.

[wilkup]

More formulas and paper ballistics to throw out at everyone. I ran the numbers on Taylor Knock Out and Thornily Relative Stopping Power just to see where everything stacked up. I was intrigued to find the 30-30 and 35 Rem stacked so much lower and would attribute that mainly to the mass the other rounds are carrying.
Could someone let me know if there's any sort of scale Taylor's formula can be compared to just to obtain some more insight on the information there?
I went to Buffalo Bore's site to get the information for a comparisons I've listed below for everyone to look through. I think we can all agree Mr Sundles is pretty straightforward with claimed ballistics and doesn't embellish as other companies are known to do. In my experience they usually give a little bit better velocity than he advertises.

Heavy 30-30 190 grain JFN
2100fps/1860ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 18
TRSP - 90
1768fps/1319ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 15
TRSP - 76
Heavy 35 Remington 220 grain JFN
2200fps/2363ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 25
TRSP - 118
1835fps/1645ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 21
TRSP - 98
Heavy 44 Magnum +P 305 grain LBT LFN
1780fps/~2000ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 33
TRSP - 147
~1281fps/~1112ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 24
TRSP - 106
Heavy 45 Colt +P 325 grain LBT LFN
~1780fps/~2150ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 37
TRSP - 161
~1300fps/~1200ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 27
TRSP - 118
Heavy 444 Marlin 335 grain LFNGC
2000fps/2974ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 41
TRSP - 181
1552fps/1793ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 32
TRSP - 141
45-70 Magnum 430 grain LBT LFN
1900fps/3446ft/lbs @ muzzle
TKO - 53
TRSP - 229
1461fps/2039ft/lbs @ 150 yards
TKO - 41
TRSP - 176

-Thornily Relative Stopping Power Scale-
45 Antelope
50 Deer
100 Black Bear (<500lbs)
120 Elk, Moose, Kudu, Zebra, Large African Safari Plains Game
150 Lion, Leopard, Grizzly Bear, Brown Bear
250 Hippopotamus, Rhinoceros, Cape Buffalo, Elephant

[Noreaster]

I've owned pistol caliber carbines and they are fun rifles, but the 45/70 is so much easier and well rounded. The .444 Marlin is a nice round but if your ever low on ammo you probably can't run to the store and buy a box, at least not a local store. My vote goes to the 45/70. I love my Contender.

[wilkup]

The cost for loading and plinking with the 45 colt keeps drawing me back to it... along with all the other pros in the Rossi's favor:

2500ak
1)Extremely light (I have revolvers heavier than this thing)
2)Short lever stroke
3)More rounds in the tube
4)Cheaper factory ammo
5)Costs less
6)Stock has good LOP
7)Decent factory trigger break (imo)
8)Better balance

[Mayor Al]

While I would agree that the 45/70 and the 444 Marlin will do the job better than a 44 magnum or 45 'Long' Colt, I am faced with the limitations of the State of Indiana as to what calibers/rounds can be used for hunting . I picked 44 Magnum as it IS legal for deer and other 4 legged critters in the Hoosier State. The longer rifle rounds are not. So I sold my 444 Marlin, my 35 Remington, and even my 30-30...and it broke my heart , but I sold my Winchecter Model 88 .308 also.

No lever guns left here. I use a Ruger semi-auto Carbine for the 44 mag. shooting.:mad:

[mehavey]

of the State of Indiana as to what calibers/rounds can be used for hunting . I picked 44 Magnum as it IS legal
for deer and other 4 legged critters in the Hoosier State. The longer rifle rounds are not.
I'd NEVER heard of a cartridge "length" rule before -- ever.
But here it is:

> The maximum rifle cartridge case length is extended to 1.8 inches, making
> the .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf legal to use
> during the deer firearms season.
http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/summary-of-deer-rule-changes/

Oh Lord, protect me from the increasing number of know-not Philistines

[B.L.E.]

I'd NEVER heard of a cartridge "length" rule before -- ever.
But here it is:

> The maximum rifle cartridge case length is extended to 1.8 inches, making
> the .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf legal to use
> during the deer firearms season.


Sounds to me like the intent of the rule is to limit hunters to bona fide "pistol caliber" cartridges. Of course, since just about every rifle cartridge including the .600 Nitro Express has had a pistol built for it, "pistol cartridge" needed to be defined.
It kind of makes sense in a densely populated and wooded area state. At least they aren't limiting you to shotguns.

[tahunua001]

I am faced with the limitations of the State of Indiana as to what calibers/rounds can be used for hunting .

that sounds outrageous, why would you limit the amount of power you can hunt with while many other states are putting minimums on it?

are you sure that those aren't just for pistols? in which case a lever action would make the 357, 44 mag, 45 LC, and 45/70(especially since it was never a pistol cal to begin with). legal to hunt with.

[wilkup]

Tell me more about this round...? I realize this was considered state-of-the-art at the turn of the century and I'm sure it killed every animal in North America the year it was released, but I don't know much about it. There is a lot of history behind this caliber, which has me at least a little curious after so many recommendations now.
What would be the advantages vs disadvantages compared to the other calibers I listed and the 35 Remington and 444 Marlin?

[2500ak]

Today I undertook the frustrating task of pulling my Rossi M92 apart for cleaning.

While I had it apart I swaped in one of these:

http://store.stevesgunz.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=1

At the same time I stoned all of the burrs off the ejector itself, and stoned all the burrs off the bottom of the hammer where it contacts the trigger. Also shaved a little off the sides of the hammer because I noticed it contacted the bolt upon release.

I highly recommend this to anyone who has one of these rifles. The ejector spring especially. The M92 action is slick until it has to eject the shell upon opening the bolt, and then in slick until it has to squeeze the ejector back into the bolt when the lugs slide into position.

It's that spring that makes the first and last part of the racking so jerky and tight. Swapping it out makes the Rossi action about as smooth as the marlin is factory. Also stops it from launching the spent casings into orbit. Snap caps go a little less than a foot up, then land at my feet.

[B.L.E.]

Tell me more about this round...? I realize this was considered state-of-the-art at the turn of the century and I'm sure it killed every animal in North America the year it was released, but I don't know much about it. There is a lot of history behind this caliber, which has me at least a little curious after so many recommendations now.
What would be the advantages vs disadvantages compared to the other calibers I listed and the 35 Remington and 444 Marlin?

It's most likely the most underestimated round in America. The .35 Remington is a bigger .30-30.
You can get the ammo for a .30-30 at just about any store that sells ammo and the ammo is not super expensive.

A lot of seasoned hunters stick with the .30-30 for the same reason a lot of experienced motorcycle riders choose a 250cc motorcycle for off road riding, it's "enough already".

[tahunua001]

It's most likely the most underestimated round in America. The .35 Remington is a bigger .30-30.
You can get the ammo for a .30-30 at just about any store that sells ammo and the ammo is not super expensive.

A lot of seasoned hunters stick with the .30-30 for the same reason a lot of experienced motorcycle riders choose a 250cc motorcycle for off road riding, it's "enough already".
I must say that I have to agree with that statement. it is very underrated and has been ever since the nonsense squad started hailing the 300 winchester magnum as "the greatest deer round ever invented". it has it's limitations just like any other round but is still capable of hunting accuracy out past 200 yards which is more than many shooters like to attempt in the first place. as a teenager my best friend and I hunted a lot and since he knew all the farmers in the area we usually had pretty good hookups for hunting. I was there when he got his first buck, a 200 pound, 3x3 whitetail at well over 200 yards. I would not recommend it for anything larger than a black bear but it definitely has a place as a deer caliber.

[wilkup]

I know my great grandfather hunted with a M94 30-30 and grandfather used it too but favored his M70 Featherweight in 30-06 for the added power.
I have been reading up on the 30-30 and from what I can find, the ammo is cheaper to buy and the performance on game up to Black Bear (even the big ones 600+lbs!) is great! The availability of 30-30 at just about any sporting goods store is also a HUGE advantage.
This thread has got me rethinking my choices and looking into so many other options! Too many choices! The only thing I'm still sure about is that I want a Marlin or Winchester 92 clone at this point! I love forums for the simple reason it's so easy to gather large amounts of knowledge =) Thanks for all the help and advice!

[Noreaster]

I guess it depends on where your hunting. In my neck of the woods anything over 100yds is really far, others consider 250-300yds normal. I wouldn't want to hunt long distance (say over 125yds,) with a 30/30. For black bear hunting your mostly over bait or maybe a treed bear by hounds, either shot is well under 50yds. Many people would shoot anything with a 300 win mag at 300 yds, including a black bear. The 150 grain 30/30 at 50 yards and it's about the same ft. lbs and velocity as the 300 mag at 300 yds.

[Big Shrek]

Yerp, I'll agree with the 6 above me :)

I had a Marlin 1895-SBL in .45/70, and it was FUN!!

But I found myself going to ye olde rifle...a 1953 Marlin 336-RC WaffleTop...
maybe because it reminds me of my grandpa...can't discount the memories...
and its just easy to shoot...kick's practically nothing with a good recoil pad on it...

So the .45/70 got sold off one day at the range when a guy with more money than sense offered me too much for it ;)

But the old 336 will get passed down to my twins...as will a few more items ;)

[batmann]

The .30-30 is my choice and I voted 'other'. Why? It has a better range than the .44M, is easier on the shoulder than a .45-70 plus ammo is cheaper.
My Winchester M94 is a great all a round rifle and has taken many a Deer and one Elk.
Range? No shot over 200 yards (one Deer) with Hornady Leverevolution and the Elk (small bull) was approx 75 and I had a clear broadside shot with 190 gr HC hand load.
The charts shown earlier are good---up to a point. The charts shown are both biased toward heavier bullets, but the .30-30 will do a pretty good job on most North American game, it just takes a little patience to get the right shot, but both the .44M and the .45-70 do too.

[2500ak]

The general sentiment seems to be for the 30-30, but my thoughts are that it's too much of a compromise for someone who plans to load their own rounds.

The 30-30 still has the ballistics of a brick compared to most modern hunting rounds like 30-06, or 7mm.

The 45-70 does too, but it can take down any game you'll find on this continent with relative ease.

The .44/.45/.454 M92's or 1894's all can be loaded to meet or -in the case of the .454- exceed the muzzle energy of the 30-30, and you've got a gun that makes a hole that lets in more daylight. Also, far more rounds in the tube, and if you ever decide you want to carry a companion revolver you're limited to a BFR for 45-70 and 30-30 (in which case you might as well get the 45-70).

[Kreyzhorse]

The 45-70 can get wild or mild and offers a wider range of offerings than your other options.

[B.L.E.]

The .30-30 is to deer hunting what Baby Bear's bed was to Goldilocks, just right.

[RevGeo]

In the poll I voted 'other' because to me a great all-around lever action would be a Savage 99 in .300 Sav, .308 Win or .358 Win. I wouldn't hesitate to hunt anything here in Idaho with any of those calibers.
I'm a fan of the 30-30 as well. Way underrated, as has been correctly pointed out in some of the above posts. The Savage 99 is, IMHO, one of the finest rifles ever made, anywhere, by anybody.

[mavracer]

Being able to have just one gun makes it all worthwhile though.
Surely you jest lol.

[Shotgun693]

I loved the .45/70 until my right shoulder was rebuilt. They took all the padding off . I could take the butt on bone with the .45/70 so tried the .38/55 and just love it. A 250 gr bullet at 1700+fps will kill anything in Texas I can afford to shoot.

[budd]

I hunt mainly in WVa. and Maryland, but I do hunt in Indiana on my Dad's farm on occasions. In Indiana, you can hunt with a carbine/rifle in 44 mag and 45 colt, but not in 45-70 Gvmt. But some of 45 colt hand loads can be almost as powerful as some low and medium rangs 45-70 loads, and still stay within factory safty limits of both the Marlin and Winchester and Rossi Carbines. You don't need 454 casouls in a carbine for bear or deer east of the BIG MUDDY. Even the 357 is good powerful short range deer and vermin gun especially in a 24 inch Levergun in any brand of carbine/rifle.

J Budd

[wilkup]

For black bear hunting your mostly over bait or maybe a treed bear by hounds, either shot is well under 50yds.

I live in Washington State and as far as I know, it's illegal to hunt over bait or with hounds. I still wouldn't plan on taking more than a 100 yard shot at one though.

[wilkup]

Alright, I know I said I wasn't interested in anything but Marlins and the Rossi 92, but I was at the store this afternoon and couldn't help but walk over to the gun counter and ask to check the different guns they had.

Well, I looked at a Marlin GBL 45-70, Rossi Rio Grande 30-30 and Rossi M92 357.
I was a little disappointed and shocked to see how poor the fit/finish on the Marlin was and listen to the shop guy talk it up. The stock was about 1/8-1/4'' above the tang on either side on top and the screws going into the bottom stuck out so far they had apparently already scratched the lever were it touches. This was the same with 2 other ones I asked to look at as well. One of them had tooling marks when I worked the lever to look into the chamber as well.

The next gun I checked out was the M92 which I don't really have anything negative to say about, other than not really liking the wood very much.

I decided to look at the Rio Grande just out of curiosity and ended up comparing the 4 they had (1 stainless, 3 blued) just to compare their quality. I can't say enough about this gun after handling the other ones. The fit and finish was very impressive on all of them! 3 of the 4 cycled smoothly and with a little work (clean/lube) I'm sure would be even better. The wood's not great, but it fit the rifle exactly how it's supposed to. It has barrel bands, which I'm not too excited about, but for a brand new rifle that will cost about $400 OTD I can get over that.

Does anyone have experience with these Rossi RG models? I've been cruising the net looking for anything I can on these after seeing them and haven't been able to turn up too much, unfortunately. I'd love some perspective from owners =) Thanks for listening and the continued advice.

[Infidel08]

I have a 444 Marlin and it or a 45/70 would make a great all around rifle.

[tahunua001]

I live in Washington State and as far as I know, it's illegal to hunt over bait or with hounds. I still wouldn't plan on taking more than a 100 yard shot at one though.

usually there are bait and hound exceptions for bears. unlike deer, elk and other large game, bears are loners that tend to have very large territories and do not keep the same schedules from day to day unless they have a very predictable food source so the only real way to hunt them are with bait or hounds. I haven't read about the washington laws but idaho has separate black bear seasons, spring is bait only, fall is hound only. of course you can hunt without either of these but your odds of a harvest are slim.

[K1500]

You have a bunch of responses, and the truth is any of the choices would do. A .44 and a .30-30 would both be better for your purposes than the .45-70 EXCEPT when it comes to elk or big bear. Even then they will work.

Someone mentioned the .454, which essentially combines the attributes of the .45 Colt/.44 Mag with the power of the .47-70. It looks like a great choice as well.

If I were you, I would buy a .30-30. If not a .30-30 I would go for a .44 magnum. I would anticipate buying a larger caliber bolt gun in the future, such as a .30-06 to cover the larger game/longer ranges.

I believe you will have more fun and save money with the smaller calibers at the range. Both the .30-30 and .44 mag cost about the same to shoot in factory ammo, and both are substantially cheaper than the .45-70.

[wilkup]

Hey guys, thanks for all your help on this. Turns out I didn't get any of the calibers I asked about! Go figure =)
I found a Marlin 336ER for a deal I couldn't say no to. Great condition and under $500!!! Now to find some ammunition...

[Sport45]

In .356 Winchester? You certainly strayed off the beaten path with that one. :)

Have you found any brass for it? Once you get set up for your reloads you should really like it.

Enjoy!

[tahunua001]

congrats on the 336. it will serve you well. be sure to post a range review.

[wilkup]

Found some ammunition =)
Took it to the range and got it sighted in.
Got my tags for this season.
Heading out to find some bears this weekend!
Hope you like the pics =) and thanks for the help everyone!

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/attachments/336/38678d1348605684-new-336er-imag0359.jpg

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/attachments/336/38679d1348605691-new-336er-imag0362.jpg

[wilkup]

YIKES! How do I resize those pics to a normal size? That's impossible to see and no fun at all =(

[Buckeye!]

45/70 White Tails to Hippos anything in between

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/lupo/lupo.htm

[CCCLVII]

Id go with the 45/70. You can load some trailboss under a 300 grain bullet for real easy shooting all the way to crazy loads. The 45/70 has a lot of selection. I have seen bullets as light as 250 grains all the way up to cast bullets of 550 grains.

While personally I would not take a 45/70 to hunt DG in Africa it would be perfectibility suitable for plains animals. I know there are people that have hunted Black Death with the 45/70 and I feel it is capable of killing any animal on earth but I don't think it is a stopping rifle. Until I went to Africa I would not of believed it. But when you see a buffalo up close you feel under gunned with any thing (in my case a 458 Lott).

For american game I think the 45/70 would be just fine as long as the shooter can shoot well with it. If you are able to adjust for long range shots and judge distances well (its harder than you think) the 45/70 would make a fine Alaska gun. But I feel that most people would be better served with a faster bolt gun.

Sorry I got to rambling there. I love the 45/70 Its one of my favorite rounds but I think many people think its more than it is. It is not an Elephant round. But as a general do all caliber I think its very capable of any thing you will see this side of the pond.

p.s. hunting in Africa is not much more than hunting Alaska (out side of the flight). Again sorry for rambling on, i just get nostalgic with the 45/70.

[giboshi]

I agree the 45-70 gov is a great cal for BIG game. I have a 30-06 and a 30-30 for smaller game.

So I bought a Rossi 45-70 lever Rio Grande. Out of the box, the lever action locked up - - sent back to factory. Two months later they said they could not fix it so sent me a new one. Tried to test fire the gun and it missed fired every time. Also the lever was so loose that it would open under normal handeling, like adding a scope. TOOK IT BACK

Bought a Marlin 1894 45-70 and the action is night and day better than that Rossi. My gunsmith said that the Rossi manufacturing has gone down hill with cheaper steel and manufacturing standards - I can believe it.

Too bad Marlin was bought by Remington - May be the death nell for any new marlion levers.

I added a Busnell Yardage Pro rangefinder scope - a must for the longer shots with the 45-70.

[Axelwik]

44 Mag and 45 Colt are for a revolver. If you're going to get a rifle, you might as well go with a rifle cartridge to take full advantage. That's one of the reasons I have a 45-70.

One train of thought, however, is to have a rifle with the same cartridge as your handgun, but in many cases (especially when shooting cast bullets) the rifle won't bore the same diameter as the handgun. You'd still have to load them separately (and size the bullets differently if you cast your own).

[Edward429451]

most people would be better served with a faster bolt gun.

Bolt guns cycle faster than a Lever Action? This is news to me. I can cycle my LA faster than any Bolt gun I've ever shot. Am I doing something wrong?

[hornetguy]

He's obviously never seen Lucas McCain in action... :D