Black Person, Black Hoodie = Reasonable Suspicion?

[secret_agent_man]

Or was it the eye contact that caused officers in a marked Lake Charles, LA police car to pull this woman over when the suspect was a man.

The cops didn't radio the stop in to dispatch, so there is no official record of the stop. The two cops didn't let the woman or her husband see their badges and get numbers. This isn't about the methodology of the police, but rather about legally sufficient suspicion:

Does the presence of hoodie on a black person of undetermined sex making eye contact with police constitute the reasonable suspicion necessary for a stop?

http://www.americanpress.com/complaint-against-lcpd

[MTT TL]

DWB- Driving While Black that is being stopped by the police for being black in a white area is actually a pretty common phenomenon. White people in "Black neighborhoods" are often stopped for the same reason; the police think that they are up to no good because they are out of place.

Is it reasonable? That I can not say. In this case the police were looking for an armed robber and the cop was an idiot.

[Young.Gun.612]

If it does then Jim crow is still alive and well...

[ripnbst]

Its called profiling and Police do it everyday.

APB goes out on black male wearing black hoodie. Black person of unidentifiable sex wearing black hoodie is acting suspicious I'd stop them too. As soon as I learned they weren't male I'd explain why they were stopped and send them on their way. Wouldn't take but 5 minutes.

[Young.Gun.612]

Read the story. That clearly is not what happened.

[MTT TL]

Read the story. That clearly is not what happened.

I don't know about "clearly". Maybe from the POV of the driver it was not what happened.

[Patriot86]

I don't see anything firearms related...but police abuse of power is a big issue that somewhat contributes to the infringement upon the second amendment so I will play.


DWB Happens, so does DWW(Driving While White) I have said this before a lot; My father frequently got pulled over in mostly non white areas of Chicago when he was on his way home from work rather late, sometimes at 11 or 12 at night. It just so happens my companies office was located in a not so nice area at the time. Half the time the CPD officers would outright tell him "typically the only white guys in this area, this time of night are looking for hoes or to score. Thats why we pulled you over". No ticket of any kind whatsoever was ever issued to him in that time and no truly valid reason given. Oddly enough though, he often got treated differently depending if he was dressed in his normal suit or in jeans and a t shirt.

While I feel for the woman in this case and on its face it seems is excessive, nothing is going to come from this and nothing is going to change. If you look out of place; If you are the only white guy in a mostly black neighborhood that is also high crime area at 11pm or the only black guy in a town period you are at risk for being profiled. Officers in my limited interactions with them seems to pick up on things that are out of place. If you match "the general description" of a suspect odds are you are going to be stopped and questioned, the officer will make up a reason to stop you. If the suspect they are looking for is wanted for something bad, like a robbery odds are you are going to eat a little pavement. It might not be right but I can see the other side of the coin, for all the officer knows you ARE the suspect and you are waiting to pull out an "assault rifle" and make sure they don't go home that night.

[Red Dog]

So the police pulls over an armed robbery suspect and didn't call it in?????
Sounds like normal procedure right?????? I've seen multiple units call for a routine traffic stop... Sounds like profiling to me!!!

[nate45]

Since the police didn't call it in and the complainants didn't get a unit number, officer badge number and/or name; there really isn't any proof it even happened. Assuming there aren't independent witnesses, none were mentioned in the article.

If it really did happen and the officers involved don't come forward, I don't see how they will ever prove it.

[BGutzman]

First I believe that we are all created equal as the contitutions states.... (No I dont want to hear about 1/2 or 1/4 part of anything) All are created equal..

Im so sick and tired of this card I wont even participate further.... It might have been whatever but I wasnt there and we have courts to figure this stuff out....

[Aguila Blanca]

The criteria established by the Supreme Court are that an officer may conduct an investigatory stop if he (/she) has "a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts" that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed. If (and I stress "if") that criterion has been met, meaning the officer must be able to clearly articulate WHY he (/she) was suspicious of the subject, the stop must be limited to the extent necessary to determine whether or not the subject fits the facts.

For the case in the article:

IF there really was a robbery, and IF the robber really wore a black hoodie, and IF the officers really thought the woman's hair looked like a hoodie -- that might provide sufficient "clearly articulable facts" to justify the initial stop.

"Might."

However, the alleged robber was a male wearing a hoodie. The woman was a female wearing ... hair. That was instantly obvious when she got out of the car, so IMHO the rest of the incident was totally bogus and nothing more than harassment. A female subject obviously does not fit the profile of a male robber, no matter what she's wearing or how she does her hair. End of discussion. "Oops, you're a gal and not a guy. Sorry, M'am. Carry on."

[Wagonman]

This sounds like Barbara Streisand on many levels. If I do an investigatory stop I fill out a "contact" card none was filled out... The gypsy is in every car these days so there would be a record of the interaction that way. The specifics of encounter are dubious... I've never heard of a stop being performed in that manner... Sounds like a prelude to a bogus lawsuit to me.

[secret_agent_man]

If a cop won't let you get his badge number or even see his face, perhaps he is not a real cop. Further confirmed by the fact the stop was not called in. The PD, however, is talking about these guys were it's people.

What about the dash cam? If there was one, the clip should be making youtube about now.

[NJgunowner]

Men in Black 2 (seems appropriate :p )

Mercedes pulls up with a dummy driver.
Agent K : Does that come standard?
Agent J : It used to have a black guy, but he kept getting pulled over.

Profiling just perpetuates racism and is a bad idea. However, if you have a credible witness stating that a black male wearing a black hoodie in that area committed a crime then it is no longer profiling but investigating.

You also have to wonder if this is just some hoax or persons impersonating police.

[teeroux]

http://www.kplctv.com/story/16130723/police-looking-for-suspect-in-richmond-suites-armed-robbery
On Saturday, 11.26.11, at approximately 10:18 PM, Officers with the Lake Charles Police Department responded to an armed robbery call in the 2600 block of Moeling Street at the Richmond Suites hotel.


http://www.americanpress.com/complaint-against-lcpd
When they left after 10 p.m., Williams and her husband stopped to fill up at a gas station at the corner of Moeling Street and U.S. 171 in preparation for their drive home.

Williams said that as she drove out of the gas station and turned onto Moeling, she made eye contact with a police officer. She said the officer then turned on his lights, made a U-turn and began following Williams’ vehicle.


Starting to see a conection yet. I'm sure several vehicles were stopped as part of an ongoing search for a robbery suspect. All this would be part of the same incident and not recorded as seperate traffic incidents. American Press is just sob storying a legitimate stop.

[icedog88]

I worked in LC for about 6 weeks back in 2000 and it seemed like they were stuck in "In The Heat of The Night " mode. Wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

Doesn't make sense about a bogus lawsuit. No badge numbers, no names. Suing the police dept? With no evidence? Subpoena the dash cam videos from all the cruisers that night? It will either corroborate or refute the claim and the ones bringing the lawsuit will know this. So if it didn't happen and it is made up, they would put themselves at risk? Sketchy.

[Carry_24/7]

I'm black, and grew up in Dallas TX. Even though I love the state, am a career DOD employee, I always got "second looks" as I call it, from the cops. By second look, I mean I could not drive by one without the gaze, and even sometimes the u-turn and short time follow (running my plates I'm sure). I can't say I was pulled over during these activities....but I sure was noticed. This made me naturally mistrust cops...sorry, but that's how it is.

Once I moved to Jacksonville Florida, it seemed all of that went away. I have even looked for it, and nothing...cops don't even look my way. It seems they have a very different attitude, why...I guess we could speculate. Even our neighborhood crime night outs are 100% different, the cops are friendlier...they seem to be from a very different breed, regardless of their race.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

When I first moved into my nice neighborhood in San Antonio, people of color complained that they were being stopped in it.

The DA was interviewed on the radio as saying the police should stop them as it was unlikely they belonged there. Nice guy as there were quite a few African-American families buying nice homes in our area. :mad:

I called in and said, sarcastically, why doesn't he issue officially approved minority stickers for our neighborhood. He didn't appreciate it but the host thought I was on the money.

[MLeake]

This used to be a big problem in West Palm Beach, FL, too.

I would have bought the "appearance matched the BOLO" until it was pointed out that the officer never called for back-up. That just seems odd...

On the other hand, I sometimes think people dress for effect (think punk styles reminiscent of skinhead culture, or hoodies and chains reminiscent of gang culture), but then don't like the effect they actually have.

I don't care if a person is black, white, or purple; but if they dress like a thug, I will eye them as potential thugs until I have reason to think otherwise. Doesn't mean I'll be mean to them, or that I want the police to hassle them out of hand, but they should realize how they present to others.

Edit: As I think about it, dressing like the local thugs do is kind of like wearing black wetsuits in areas where the sharks primarily feed on seals or sea lions.

[RamItOne]

The way humans learn is by taking past events/experiences and compile that data which then helps us deal with a current situation.


Glenn- yup try driving a beater up in Iron Horse or even better the dominion. I (white guy) got some looks while I was driving my 50K truck in the dominion, those people get use to the vehicles that belong there, I know they don't balk at George Straights Chevy when he drives through.

Hollywood park cops are very particular too.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I cannot get past the Dominion's force field - the lasers were set to destroy old Hondas with dented hoods and 256K miles on them.

San Antonio - joke. :D

[icedog88]

I think it's kinda funny how there are are double standards in life. If a black guy dresses like what we perceive a thug should dress like according to what we see on TV, then its their fault for dressing that way. Then why do we get our dander up when some of the black community voice their opinion about distrusting the cops when a lot of cops they see on TV/ news clips are beating up black Americans? They are getting their info from the same place we get ours. Odd.

[Aguila Blanca]

So there was a robbery. I remain of the opinion that, while there may have been sufficient justification for the initial stop, the perp was a MALE. The driver the cops thought was a male wearing a hoodie was a FEMALE. Once that was discovered, I can see no justification for what followed.

[Young.Gun.612]

I wasnt there so I can only assume, but the woman probably wasn't dressed like a thug. Also, when theyre looking for a man, and its obviously a woman, more problems. And a felony stop where the cops DIDN'T call for back up? If it walks like a duck...

[MLeake]

icedog88, black or white, or Asian, hoodies and baggy pants evoke thug. It isn't racially specific.

Skinhead tends to get more attention when worn by white teen and twenty-somethings. More of a racial factor, but not against people of color.

I'm sure if I said "dressed like trailer trash" you would also conjure an image that would fit.

Should style of dress matter? Maybe not. Does it affect how people perceive somebody? Most definitely.

Edit: in this specific case, I don't know how the woman presented aside from the hoodie, and the officer's actions seem suspect.

[icedog88]

Lol, I'll have to remember to wear my suit to the gym instead of my sweats next time!:eek:

My point is that manner of dress is forced upon us visually through media outlets so we have a preconceived notion of what "thugs n gangstas" wear. Just like a preconceived notion that cops constantly harass blacks. We get that through the media as well. Doesn't make it right or for that matter, true. It "evokes" thug only because that's how we want to perceive it because it meshes with what we see on TV and that's comfortable.

[Young.Gun.612]

Bernie Madoff wore a suit, should I assume every business man is going to defraud me of everything I own? I mean, following some peoples logic...

I think actions and mannerisms are far more indicative of a persons character. I wear baggy jeans and hoodies all the time, as well as usually having a buzzed hair cut. I'm also a law abiding citizen who is saving up to pay for the class to get my CCW permit. Can't always judge someone by how they look.

[MLeake]

Do you dress that way when applying for a job? A mortgage?

If not, why not?

[k4swb]

I was doing some antenna work for my Amateur radio station and had a really dark skinned individual helping me. He was wearing a dark hoodie and way down in my back yard.

One of my neighbors called the house to ask me if I knew there was a black man leaning against my walnut tree down in the back and wanted to know if I wanted him to shoot in the general direction to run him off.

I told him to wait until we were through working and I'd see if I could get the guy to run around back there to make it more interesting.

When my neighbor realized the guy was helping me he was flustered.

My really dark skinned friend didn't think it was very funny but the other guy helping and I thought it was a hoot.

[Young.Gun.612]

No, i don't dress casually in times that don't call for it, but I also don't overdress when its unnecessary. There's a huge difference between not dressing for an appropriate situation and being judged based on casual appearance.

[TheNatureBoy]

Black Person, black hoodie = reasonable suspicion? In America, yes unfortunately. Happens and will continue to happen.

[MLeake]

Ignoring the roots of your fashion choice is your option. But I bet you wouldn't wear what might be mistaken for colors in a hostile neighborhood.

Similarly, if your preferred style of dress matches that of the meth heads and street dealers where I live, don't be surprised if you start at a social disadvantage in the neighborhood.

Edit: FWIW, a lot of my friends in high school were punk fans and metalheads. Several in college were goths. They dressed as they did KNOWING that people would look at them in certain ways, and for them that was part of the fun.

They didn't try to claim people shouldn't notice; that would have been hypocritical.

[Young.Gun.612]

I dont go out of my way to look thuggish. I wear clothes that are comfortable. By baggy I mean not straight leg or boot cut. I don't sag, or wear "colors" (do a little research, gang tactics regarding colors aren't the same as it was years ago) and i also avoid known bad areas.

Your peers who made the decision to stand out in their dress are completely different from me, as I'm not deviating from societal norms in my attire.

I'm 23 years old, and i live in the inner city. I dress in what I feel is comfortable and reasonably fashionable (i don't keep up on the latest trends, but I wear things most other people my age would). If someone thinks a young person wearing young peoples clothes automatically means said person is somehow gang affiliated or a thug, well excuse me but its high time they get a glass stomach so they can actually see with their head shoved that far up their own...

[Aguila Blanca]

Black Person, black hoodie = reasonable suspicion? In America, yes unfortunately.
No, not in America. Not legally, despite the truth of the statement that it happens. I already listed the criteria established by the Supreme Court. In order to initiate an investigatory stop, an officer must have a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed. In a vacuum, despite the fact that robbers often wear hoodies, the fact is that other people often wear hoodies, too, so a hoodie could not be a sufficient "clearly articulable fact" to justify a stop.

The case in the original post, however, is different. It appears it was NOT in a vacuum. There actually had been a crime, right in the same area, and the robber was a black man wearing a black hoodie. Under those circumstances, stopping a black man who is wearing a black hoodie WOULD be justified under the Supreme Court guidelines.

But that's just the stop. The suspect was a black male wearing a hoodie. As soon as it was seen that the person the officers thought was a black man wearing a black hoodie was actually a woman, their justification evaporated. They made the stop. The person did NOT fit the criteria, so there was no "clearly artuculable fact" that could possibly have justified pulling her out of the car and handcuffing her.

[icedog88]

The situation being discussed has nothing to do with gang colors from what I see. Nor has it to do with being in the "wrong" part of town. There are differing opinions on how people should or should not dress and how it's perceived. This is by itself a different topic. Yes there are times and places for certain dress. To assume someone dressed in baggy clothes is a thug is imo, short and narrow sighted. The same way flannel shirts and cammie hats shouldn't indicate trailer park folk. This "logic" is obviously flawed and at it's core, stereotypical, which hints at the mild base of some "isms". Black people, in a black part of town dressed as everyone else does, is not an indication of gangstas. Period. It's exactly that type of thinking that leads to profiling which, most people here acknowledge as wrong. Those who think this way, see nothing wrong with the stop.

[gc70]

I'm 23 years old, and i live in the inner city. I dress in what I feel is comfortable and reasonably fashionable (i don't keep up on the latest trends, but I wear things most other people my age would). If someone thinks a young person wearing young peoples clothes automatically means said person is somehow gang affiliated or a thug, well excuse me but its high time they get a glass stomach so they can actually see with their head shoved that far up their own...

People are the beneficiaries of millenia of evolutionary development that rewarded humans whom noticed differences and were suspicious of the unknown or unfamiliar. While such a response does not always turn out to be warranted, it is still often a sound survival mechanism.

[MTT TL]

This does remind of a scanner call the other night. (police in our area still use open air waves)

Someone called in that three black men were driving through town.

That is someone called 911 for that. True no black people live in my town, however to call the police because some were driving through strikes me as crazy.

[icedog88]

Yikes!!!^^^^


gc70
Civilizations also vanished because they couldn't adapt to changes.:D

[gc70]

Based on the woman's statements, an internal affairs investigation is warranted ... for horrendously bad procedure.

When she drove to the side of the road, the police unit stopped behind her vehicle. After a few minutes, she said, the officer used a loudspeaker to tell her to put her hands outside the window.
...
She said an officer handcuffed her hands behind her back, and asked if anyone else was in the vehicle.

With "a few minutes" between stopping an armed robbery suspect and giving instructions to the suspect, any officer who was not brain-dead would call in the stop, request backup, and run the vehicle's tags.

After being parked behind a suspect's vehicle for "a few minutes" any officers (there were two) who had not looked for other occupants in the vehicle would be certifiably brain-dead.

As to the woman's statement that she was unable to identify the officers by name or badge number, did they get in their cruiser and speed away in reverse so that the woman and her husband could not see the vehicle number or license plate?

[gofast1320]

Not defending bad policing BUT 2 sides to every story. Not every mistake is a white on black crime or conspiracy. So they knew for absolutely sure that it was a man. The call said it was a man with a hoodie. Witnesses with guns pointed at them are the most reliable of all right? Was there any type vehicle described? Obviously the cop thought he saw someone with a hoodie as he pulled them over. When he got the suspected armed robber out it turned out to be a female. Had she been wearing a hoodie? was there one in the car? without looking would you be sure? Do you just say excuse me did you just rob someone and ditch your hoodie? What the hey? So you just relax and turn around and walk off. Maybe to be shot by the partner. They were doing their job. The best way maybe not- They had just stopped someone they suspected of committing an armed robbery and were prepared to do what was needed to bring them in .. oh, and hopefully go home afterwards.

No radio call. Anyone ever listened to a hot call on something like that when the bad guy/gal is suspected to be in a particular area. 127 we're in , 45 pulling down, 185 responding, check 185 .. 127 pull to main and 3rd, ..2nd, kilo 7 are you in route to stop on Marlboro,
When you look at the above look right after 127 pull to main and 3rd - see .....2nd could that have been the "bad call" where 145 "the bad call cops" called in they were out with 2 in gray sedan at king and 2nd.

[BGutzman]

If you have ever been to Lake Charles you would probably better understand that the whole area has lots of suspicious people of every color or lack of color....

It may well be like New Orleans (or not) with a population with a lot of people with some judicial history. Not to say the whole place was bad because it certainly wasnt and some people were very warm but it is what it is...

[Conn. Trooper]

It was after 10 p.m. and raining. The person was in the area where a robbery had recently occurred, and appeared (apparently) to match the description of the robbery suspect. On a side note, there could be more info that the newspaper is not reporting ie: possible vehicle description, clothing description, height and weight, etc., that may have also matched the lady or her husband.

Maybe the cops made a mistake trying to solve a robbery, and it's not a giant conspiracy. Heresy! :eek:

The lady was briefly detained, handcuffed, and shortly thereafter released with an apology. I am failing to see the problem here.

[MTT TL]

The lady was briefly detained, handcuffed, and shortly thereafter released with an apology. I am failing to see the problem here.

I don't much see it either, despite all the major attempts at drama by the victim. I wonder how a stranger would have been received by the town watch after dark when a nearby place had been robbed 200 years ago. I am betting not as nicely as this. People need to grow up and realize what kind of world we live in.

[MLeake]

icedog88, I believe from previous threads that you are active or former military. Did you get the same funny looks when you were in uniform, as you did when you were in hoodies, etc? My bet is you did not. You, the person, had not changed, but your clothing sent a message whether you wanted it to or not.

Young.Gun.612, whether you are deviating from norms depends on where you are at the time. However, when I lived in an area where the clothing style you describe was more normal, a lot of my neighbors who dressed in that style were getting a lot of visits from the sheriff's drug unit. When the drug and violent crimes in an area are, more often than not, committed by people in certain modes of dress, those modes of dress get unfavorable notice.

Look at it another way - young, brooding white males in long, dark trench coats tend to make a lot of people think "Columbine shooter." It doesn't mean people will necessarily be mean to those males, but it does mean a lot of people will keep a much closer eye on them.

Should people be judged by their clothes? Maybe not. Do I know people whom I like who dress in ways that might look sketchy? Yes, I do. Have I ever dressed in ways that had people looking at me in such manner? Yes, I have.

But pretending that this isn't so, or even that there is no reason for it, is naive.

[(*_*)]

Whats all this anti profiling nonsense? The way you look can say something about you. Everyone knows it and to some degree everyone practices it. If something is so obviously off wouldent it make more sense to start there then randomly? Profiling is just another way of looking at statistical averages. I am not a cop, yet everyday part of my job is to profile/read peoples affect and ascertain the truthfulness of there comments. Yet if some cop who has seen lots of criminals (because they are a cop and they come into contact more then the general public) notices something that forms a pattern which suggests a higher likelihood and a known crime has taken place, suddenly its "profiling".

[icedog88]

Look, I wasn't there. Nor was anyone else here. All I'm saying is when you profile it leads to this type "us vs them" mentality. Being handcuffed is extremely degrading, even more so when you are innocent and the reason why you were stopped is sketchy. To the people defending the cops because their job is to go home safe every night, thousands of cops find ways to do this every day without putting themselves in a position where misconduct can be construed. If such a stop was made, why no record of it? Notice, I say if. I don't know if it happened or not. But as it isn't a stretch for some to suggest hoodies mean thugs, by the same token, give the history of cops in the south, it isn't a stretch to suggest that this incident happened. If it did the way she described it, it was wrong.

The way you look may say something about you. This delves into something greater than just a random stop. People for the most part dress as their peers around them. In the west/ midwest you are more likely to find boots and jeans than in the east. In the cities, you are more likely to find hoodies and Tims. Doesn't mean the western wear indicates some hick just as hoodies don't indicate thug. I had thought our society had progressed from some of these stigmas. I see it hasn't. I may see a person in the Bronx dressed "out of place" in western attire and think "wow, don't see that everyday". Doesn't mean said person doesn't belong and I should be wary and constantly check my six because of it. Being alert doesn't mean I have to be paranoid.

Profiling keeps humans thinking that it's us and them.


icedog88, I believe from previous threads that you are active or former military. Did you get the same funny looks when you were in uniform, as you did when you were in hoodies, etc? My bet is you did not. You, the person, had not changed, but your clothing sent a message whether you wanted it to or not
Correct. Wore my uniform proudly for 12 years. But this imo is different because of the word uniform. What this suggests is that if everyone in this country wore a uniform, they would be treated the same. We, as educated adults know this is false.

[Rusty35]

Im not understanding all the Hoodie profiling comments.
A description was given, black male wearing a hoodie.
Police were on the look out for a person matching that description.
If it had been a Green Male wearing a speedo, would would be talking about Speedo profiling?

I think whats in question here is the police pulled over a female not wearing a hoodie.
And they were potentially not professional in their behavior.

The only thing that is 100% fact in this story is, the media is twisting it to fit their agenda.

[icedog88]

Probably would be if green men wearing speedos had a history of being profiled

[secret_agent_man]

In the cities, you are more likely to find hoodies and Tims. Doesn't mean the western wear indicates some hick just as hoodies don't indicate thug.

I've been around the block. Actually, it does frequently work out that way. Enough that you can depend on it, and you had best rely on it if you want to go home at the end of the day.

[Rusty35]

icedog88
Senior Member

Probably would be if green men wearing speedos had a history of being profiled

Profiled for what?
History of what?

What if the description had been " 3' white male, with one prosthetic arm pulling a Radio fly wagon with a large bank bag full of money "

At which point the police should not pull over any one matching that description, because that would be profiling any one with Radio Flyer wagon full of money.

[johnbt]

"The suspect was a black male wearing a hoodie."

Did they check the suspect's gender at the crime scene?

How could they be certain the suspect was a male without a strip search? I'm serious, the suspect may have appeared to be a male, may have spoken like a typical male, may have dressed like a male, but hey, crossdressing and stuff happens.

I spend too much time drinking beer with lawyers. :)

John

[MLeake]

I was wondering that, myself.

Not having seen the suspect or the woman, and not knowing what they look like, I'm not sure how obvious it was that the suspect was a man, and the woman was not.

Just yesterday, looking around at people at restaurants and stores, there were several whose gender was not immediately obvious. Often, this was due to extreme obesity making normal characteristics difficult to observe. PC or not, it's hard to tell when body shapes are amorphous.

Also, there have been recent robberies where the "man" was a woman (in hoodie, ballcap, and sunglasses), or the "woman" was a man (cross-dressing). It would depend, I suppose, on whether the suspect's identity were known, or if people were responding to a general description, as to whether a woman would obviously not be the suspect.

icedog88, going back to judging people - we are talking about snap judgements based on appearance. We aren't talking permanent judgements. If the person dressed in a manner that puts us on edge turns out to be polite, friendly, and pleasant, it's not hard to overcome the initial apprehension. But the point is, the initial appearance in this case is something that has to be overcome. (And it's not a racial thing; my bells and whistles don't go off over conservatively dressed black males, but they do over white males in hoodies and baggie pants, assuming no major behavioral cues are happening.)

[Rusty35]

johnbt
Senior Member
"The suspect was a black male wearing a hoodie."

Did they check the suspect's gender at the crime scene?

How could they be certain the suspect was a male without a strip search? I'm serious, the suspect may have appeared to be a male, may have spoken like a typical male, may have dressed like a male, but hey, crossdressing and stuff happens.

I spend too much time drinking beer with lawyers.


The person was seen committing a crime, but he is only suspected of committing the crime.

The suspect that was definitely committing the crime, is suspected to be male, but may indeed be not male, and is suspected to be wearing a Hoodie,but may not be.

All officers be on the look out for some one not fitting this description.
If you see some one fitting this description , look the other way.
Only stop white females not wear hoodies.

[icedog88]

Had an entire post written but deleted it because some people just don't get it. Profiling is wrong imo. Period. Do it if you must to "go home at the end of the day" but don't be surprised if those that are profiled do their own profiling. If we could all dress alike and speak the same as everyone else does, I'm sure this wouldn't be an issue:rolleyes:. As for me, I choose not to profile and yet continue to make it home everyday without alienating different types of people. Lots of LEOs in my sphere of friends and family. The ones who do profile don't rate very high with the rest of us.

At which point the police should not pull over any one matching that description,
As for this, they were looking for a male, they pulled a female and cuffed her after establishing this.

This may or may not fit profiling but at the least smacks of harrassment.

[Rusty35]

icedog88
Senior Member

Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 328

Had an entire post written but deleted it because some people just don't get it. Profiling is wrong imo. Period. Do it if you must to "go home at the end of the day" but don't be surprised if those that are profiled do their own profiling. If we could all dress alike and speak the same as everyone else does, I'm sure this wouldn't be an issue. As for me, I choose not to profile and yet continue to make it home everyday without alienating different types of people. Lots of LEOs in my sphere of friends and family. The ones who do profile don't rate very high with the rest of us.

Quote:
At which point the police should not pull over any one matching that description,
As for this, they were looking for a male, they pulled a female and cuffed her after establishing this.

This may or may not fit profiling but at the least smacks of harrassment.

Not arguing that Profiling is questionable, or that the stop in question, wasn't questionable.
Only that using a description from an eye witness is not profiling.

As for profiling, every one does it every day, including you.
A profile is just that, and every person fits a profile, and we have to use those profiles to get through the day.
The woman at at the restaurant wearing a waitress uniform carrying a little pad of paper fits the profile of a waitress, so we give her our order.

The guy driving a yellow car with a light on top fits the profile of a Taxi driver so we wave to him to stop.

[icedog88]

Drawing conclusions on a group based on profiling without confirmation is what I am referring to. Negative connotations associated with manner of dress more often than not, turn out to be false.

MLeake:

A person's behavior and how they act is a better assessment of a person's character than how they dress. A person in traditional Arabic dress does not raise my alarms anymore than a person in jeans and a t-shirt. However, if either one is acting suspiciously or out of the norm of everyone else around them, that's my cause for alarm.

As with anything I try to do (for the most part), I am not in any way trying to disrespect anyone, merely disagreeing. It's one of the reasons why I love this forum!:D. Because we can and still have respect.

[MLeake]

icedog88, I'm not trying to be a jerk; and I agree with you about observing behavior as ultimately being more important.

Where we disagree, apparently, is on the importance that many people put on first impressions. It takes time to observe behavior. It takes a flash image to see how something appears. Like it or not, human survival depended on making very fast judgements based on appearances, for many thousands of years. It's pretty ingrained.

Overcoming a negative first impression requires conscious effort. The things that give us negative first impressions may well be functions of popular culture; they may also be functions of individual experience. They may even be based on some objective observations (for instance, security camera after security camera showing people using hoodies pulled up, ball caps pulled down, and sunglasses to try to defeat security cameras; hoodies and sweats or baggy pants used to hide weapons; etc).

And, as I said to Young.Gunr, "norms" vary with where you are and who you are among. The "Why did Little Tiffany have to die?" scene from Men in Black is one of my favorite illustrations of this idea.

Going back to the male/female thing: Again, I haven't seen pictures of either the suspect, or the woman. Differences may have been immediately apparent, I don't know.

We had a murder last week in Kansas City, committed by a woman who was angry that the decedent had not paid her for drugs she gave him to sell. The mug shot photo they ran of the woman... well, if you didn't know she were a woman from the article, you might have no idea from the photo. I could easily see witnesses who didn't personally know her, thinking that a man had been the killer.

[Rusty35]

icedog88
Drawing conclusions on a group based on profiling without confirmation is what I am referring to. Negative connotations associated with manner of dress more often than not, turn out to be false.

MLeake:

A person's behavior and how they act is a better assessment of a person's character than how they dress. A person in traditional Arabic dress does not raise my alarms anymore than a person in jeans and a t-shirt. However, if either one is acting suspiciously or out of the norm of everyone else around them, that's my cause for alarm.

As with anything I try to do (for the most part), I am not in any way trying to disrespect anyone, merely disagreeing. It's one of the reasons why I love this forum!. Because we can and still have respect.

I agree that behavior is a better assessment, however ,observing behavior is done after profiling.

We cant say that all people who walk into a convenience store with a gun in their hand are convenience store robbers.
But they certainly fit the profile.
So we use a profile to determine the need to asses behavior.
If a person walks into a store with their face covered by a hoodie, with their hands in their pockets,you would be wise to profile.

We also have to consider that dressing in a certain way is a behavior in its self.

[icedog88]

We cant say that all people who walk into a convenience store with a gun in their hand are convenience store robbers.

Action

If a person walks into a store with their face covered by a hoodie, with their hands in their pockets,you would be wise to profile.

I classify this as action as well even though it is close to how a person is dressed. 20 degrees here, in winter, it's normal.

MLeake: I'm not so sure we even disagree to that extent. First impressions, imo, is slightly different than profiling used in the context of an entire group. A person wearing a hoodie in the inner city may well be a thug, but doesn't mean everyone who wears one is a potential thug either.

For example, I knew of a older man who lived in the projects in Portsmouth VA, who always had a red bandana hanging out of his pocket. Yup, you guessed it, not a Blood, just a hanky. But wait, if I use profiling, black male, red bandana, must be gang affiliated right? See what I mean? You say but he was an older man. Doesn't fit completely. Wrong. Gang members for life and if he was gang in his younger years, then got out, he wouldn't be still claiming his set by wearing colors.

Overcoming a negative first impression requires conscious effort.

So does becoming proficient with a handgun. We want to do this, so it is easier than if it is forced upon us. I say the same can be said of any learned behavior.:cool:

[Young.Gun.612]

So in this country where we're free to practice any religion, adhere to almost any political belief, we should still conform our dress to ways that will prevent close minded people from judging us simply for what we're wearing? Entirely wrong. If you're so paranoid of any young person of any color based on their clothing, well maybe you should move out to the woods and bunker down. Fashion changes, and people will dress in what their contemporaries dress in. Urban styles dont automatically correlate to criminal behavior.

[Alaska444]

One of my patients at the city I was in was one of the chief detectives on the force. He collated ALL of the arrest reports for the entire year since that was one of his duties. One year, he simply made a pile of each race that committed the crimes and was arrested. One for blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and Whilte.

One race that is by far a minority in this city had three times the number of crimes as the next in line, while the predominant race in town had the least by far. I will let folks fill in the blanks to not provoke a complete TFL melt down, but to deny that there are racial problems where certain groups of people do commit a majority of the crime is not looking at the evidence clearly.

We now have a very aggressive mayor in town that has cracked down on the abuses of the section 8 welfare homes drawing national attention as well as the expected ACLU law suit. I can tell you that the section 8 house three doors over from mine had up to 30 people living there. Had arrests for gang and drug activity, multiple neighborhood complaints, recorded neighborhood crimes, break ins, fights, drug dealing etc. Did HUD do anything? NOT A THING. Did the city at the time under a different mayor do anything? NOT A THING.

What saved our neighborhood. FORCLOSURE, YES!! The house went for sale and the new owners vacated the lease to the section 8 criminals. Crime in our neighborhood immediately fell to nothing.

There is a serious gang problem growing in America fueled by free HUD supplied housing where they place their operations and criminal activities right in the midst of "good" neighborhoods. For anyone that has spent anytime in our prisons, the reality is that race is the predominant separating factor. It is also a truth that the leaders in the prison gangs run things on the streets. The prison gang wars spread into our neighborhoods by this well organized criminal activity.

As a Christian, I readily understand that all men are of the same blood and we all have a soul that will stand before their own Creator and give account. My two best friends from the Army are black. I a married an Asian woman and my children all have brown eyes and black hair. I am not the least motivated by racial overtones in my personal life, but having spent 8 years preaching in a maximum security prison, and had dozens of police officers as my patients, the facts are quite clear. To survive on the streets as a cop, profiling is quite simply a fact of life whether it is "right" or "wrong," it simply is. Here in this town where a minority race is responsible for the majority of the crimes and arrests, looking for the kids in the black hoodies is unfortunately a reality.

Lastly, when I see the known criminals in our own neighborhood (we have a very active neighborhood watch program by necessity) almost all of them to a tee are seen in black hoodies even in the hottest months here in the southwest desert. Sorry, but after over a decade of harrassment in my own neighborhood by hooded folks, I take notice of them immediately should any approach me. The cops I have spoken with likewise do the same. Just the way it is in the real world.

[icedog88]

Well i will be sure to stay away from people with 3 names then as most serial killers have those, be sure to stay out of trailer parks cuz that's where the meth labs are, and so on and such like. We can go on and on. What I mean is it's perfectly fine to be aware, but this type of thinking leads to further alienation and promotes fear on all sides. The movie "The Siege" illustrates this perfectly. And it is absolutely plausible.

[Alaska444]

Sadly, my neighborhood has been under seige in the last decade, mostly by those wearing hoodies. We now have a top of the line alarm, bars on our windows and doors as well as other security precautions all in a state where CCW is out of reach. Yes, seige is exactly what it is my friend. Try living 3 doors over from a house with 30 people conducting gang and drug activity and get back to us to tell us what you would call it my friend.

[icedog88]

Pretty Lake Ave, Norfolk,Va. 1992. I lived across the street from a crack house. Told the owner to respect my family. Never had one problem.

[johnbt]

"Urban styles dont automatically correlate to criminal behavior."

No, not automatically, but the odds are they aren't nuns or nurses or plumbers. Clothing style IS a behavior. Hair style IS a behavior.

There's urban like a three-piece suit and there's urban like a drug dealer.

Heck, I bought a hoodie and wore it in D.C. during most of 1965. It was stupid looking then... :o

John

[lawnboy]

Here's my two cents:

I consider it my duty as an adult to judge people. The closer I get to you and the more I interact with you the more I'll judge you. This doesn't mean that I'll call you out or behave rudely to you if I judge you "not my sort". It just means that I'm not going to trust you, confide in you or spend any time with you. I'll treat you with the basic level of courtesy due to all people whenever we do interact. Not more than that. I'm responsible for who I associate with, so my duty to judge you is clear.

Since it is my duty to judge, I must judge on some basis. The first thing available to judge you on is what you look like. The range of acceptable appearances at this time in history is pretty large. If you choose to look like a bad guy extra in a movie you are telling me something about yourself. I may find out later that this poor judgement in your appearance is just a harmless quirk. But initially I'm going to judge you on the info I have.

I have a few friends and regular acquaintances who run the gamut from black guy/black hoodie to looking like one of Schillingers crew from the old HBO series Oz. Some of them I was initially wary of, but later found out to be good guys. I also know people who look like fine upstanding citizens but are as evil as it is possible for a human to be. So while appearance is a good first place to start, it's not the end of the story.

The Government is not allowed to judge you. I am required to judge you. Don't ignore the difference.

[Young.Gun.612]

odds are they aren't nuns, or nurses...
I dress in a manner that, based on what has been said in this discussion would have many of you grabbing the grip of your trusty ccw and looking over your shoulder. I work 40 Plus hours a week at a hospital. Shot a hole in that logic, now didn't I?

It's 2011, things, people, society, fashion, all change. Get a grip on reality and realize that just because a person dresses in a way that is fashionable to them and their contemporaries doesnt make them a threat to you.

If the manner of dress of the population bothers someone that much, move to an area where people dress more akin to you. The rest of us shouldn't have to be judged or profiled becauae of your (this is directed at no one in particular, its a figurative "you") paranoia of all things not Cleaver-esque.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We seem to be going in circles and risking close to the flames.

Anything NEW to say - otherwise ...

[lawnboy]

I dress in a manner that, based on what has been said in this discussion would have many of you grabbing the grip of your trusty ccw and looking over your shoulder. I work 40 Plus hours a week at a hospital. Shot a hole in that logic, now didn't I?


No you didn't. The logic is sound. Your resistance to the consequences of your choices is where the issue lies.

You are free to dress as you like. For that matter, you are free to do as you like. No law, code of conduct or custom can restrict you. All laws, codes of conduct and customs can do is impose consequences. The consequences of dressing and appearing to your fellow man in a way that draws negative attention are yours to bear. You bear them because of your decisions. I bear the consequences of judging you. Everyone has their part to play.

[icedog88]

I am required to judge you.

This is a choice. A conscious decision on your part. No one "requires" you to judge but yourself.

People are missing the point. Judge, if you must. But on action, and not on appearance. You all know Grandma taught "not to judge a book by it's cover" lol:D. I guess the best I can hope for is civility at this point. Personally, I choose a more positive outlook than a pessimistic one. Much easier to deal with. Me that is:D.

[lawnboy]

That's my point. I am the only one who can REQUIRE me to do anything. All anyone else or anything else can do it impose consequences.

All of life is composed of responsibility, choices, actions and consequences. In my opinion most evil occurs when someone tries to artificially break this chain. Usually this happens in the "responsibility" or "consequences" part of the chain. This thread deals with the "consequences" part.

How else do you judge a book without reading it?

[MLeake]

Look, YG... If I go out in a Hugo Boss suit and loafers, I get viewed and treated differently than I do if I go out in boots, chinos, and leather bomber jacket... Or sneakers, faded jeans, and a tank top... Or The North Face hiking gear... Or my beat-up green 1951 jacket and combat boots.

Good or bad, each look is likely to evoke a different reaction, which will vary with the audience. My identity and personality haven't changed, as people will rather quickly figure out. But most people will form their initial impression based on how I look.

According to the undergrad psychology courses I took back when, that is pretty universal behavior. Experiments involving pre-K kids showed that they had a strong tendency to assign personality traits to people they had only observed in photos. (Generally, kids seem to think physically attractive people are "nicer". Go figure...)

People also tend to be more comfortable around people with whom they identify. I tend to prefer the company of educated but outdoorsy and active people. My sister, who is a university VP, tends to hang with an academic (and largely urban) crowd.

My sister probably reacts more favorably to people in hoodies than she does to people in cowboy boots and Stetsons...

Whether we like it or not, people do form first impressions before we even say a word.

And we know this, or else we would dress down when meeting the families of our significant others, buying cars, and job- hunting.

So sometimes I dress up, sometimes I dress down. But I am aware that in many instances, how I look may matter.

[icedog88]

How else do you judge a book without reading it?

You said it man!

[MLeake]

The irony of "judging a book by its cover" is that publishers pay editors and artists a lot of money to design covers that will hook potential readers.

If people were not affected by art, lead-ins, review tag lines, etc the publishing industry would not waste millions of dollars on such...

[nate45]

This thread has wandered off into profiling, when the story in the OP, assuming its an accurate account, seems more a case of mistaken identity than racial profiling.

If the description the officers had was of a White man with a mullet, wearing a monster truck t-shirt and driving a 1978 Chevy pick up, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they wouldn't have pulled the individuals in question over.

[markj]

If I was to fear anyone or any young man wearing a dark hoodie where I work. Well lets say they all wear them :) lol a community college in the "bad" part of town. I just smile and look happy to everyone comes my way. Treat everyone as I wish to be treated is my way of doing things. Treat everyone the same till they prove they need to be treated differeently.

[Conn. Trooper]

All the hoodie and dress talk is missing the point. The police were looking for a guy in a hoodie, because thats who was described as being the suspect. It has nothing to do with the actual garment, it was the description provided to police by the victim. If he had been wearing a tiara and ballet tights, the cops should be looking for a guy in a tiara and ballet tights. Not a guy in a hoodie.

The hoodie was just what that suspect was wearing when he pulled a robbery, could have been any kind of clothing. Wearing a hoodie doesn't "make" you a good guy or a bad guy, it makes you a guy wearing a hoodie.

I have gotten broadcasts to look for everything and anything as far as descriptions go. Know what I look for? People matching those descriptions. Right down to a priest in full regalia. He was an Alzheimers patient that walked away from a nursing home in his full outfit. I wasn't profiling priests, I was looking for a guy matching a description.

[Alaska444]

We have a large military component in our city. Most have combat experience making them less of a target than the old lady with grocery bags. I wear my Army hat and keep my hair short in line with this military look. I am also still fairly muscular for my old age of 53. I dress a certain way when I am out and about so that I am not the first person that the creeps think of accosting. Clothes do make a statement whether we like that or not. When I was doctoring, it was tie and coat all the time. You could look at me and know I was a doctor.

Now, when out in public, I try to play up my military appearance to give them a second thought about harrassing me or my wife since I am not allowed to carry in CA. When I am speaking at national medical meetings, I am wearing a black suit and tie. What you wear in many ways tells something about you. Eye ball to eye ball, you will trust a man in a suit quicker than someone whether black, white, red or yellow wearing a black hoodie in the middle of the hot summer. It just isn't the right clothes for the heat and temperature. It is out of place.

[BGutzman]

dress like a potential thug get treated like a potential thug

[Rusty35]

BGutzman
Senior Member

dress like a potential thug get treated like a potential thug
__________________

How does a thug dress?
Only thugs I personally know are thugs, wear 3 piece Armani or such.

Most of the guys I know that CC wear baggy pants.

[lawnboy]

Dress like anything and get treated like that thing.

[Aguila Blanca]

I think whats in question here is the police pulled over a female not wearing a hoodie.
And they were potentially not professional in their behavior.
At last ... someone sees the issue for what it is (was).

[BGutzman]

How does a thug dress

Funny because most people I know can identify a thug or wantabe thug without a problem... The gang hand symbols and tattoo sleeves, sagging britches and poor ability to say the word "you" usually help hint at it... Its not color dependent...

[Baylorattorney]

Depends.


Mark, esquire

[secret_agent_man]

LOL, sixty miles NW of Lake Charles, LA lies the little lumber and oilfield town of Jasper, TX. This hoodie guy really get around:

http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/article/Jasper-police-looking-for-robbery-suspect-2405945.php

Maybe in Texas they still know the difference between a man and a woman...

[BGutzman]

Having lived at Fort Polk for more than 5 years I have a real good idea of what Lake Charles is like and I was there for Katrina and Rita.....

And my statement is still true...

Only thugs I personally know are thugs, wear 3 piece Armani or such.


I dont see these guys robbing places on my tv... Maybe they use laws, finances and brains but much less likely armed robbery of a gas station..

[secret_agent_man]

At last ... someone sees the issue for what it is (was).

Yes, the OP was about reasonable suspicion or the lack thereof to make this particular stop.

[gc70]

Allegations of profiling and racial mistreatment seem to attract and hold people's attention. They certainly got my initial attention in this case. But I have a learned behavior related to my work, which requires that I not embrace first impressions and pick everything about an issue apart. In this case, the claims about the nature of racial mistreatment 'feel' plausible, but the details provided about police procedure do not.

I know I will be flamed for diverging from the vigorous discussion of is it or is it not profiling and racial mistreatment, but I vote for this story being a fabrication.

[Rusty35]

BGutzman
Senior Member

Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 1,434

Having lived at Fort Polk for more than 5 years I have a real good idea of what Lake Charles is like and I was there for Katrina and Rita.....

And my statement is still true...

Quote:
Only thugs I personally know are thugs, wear 3 piece Armani or such.
I dont see these guys robbing places on my tv... Maybe they use laws, finances and brains but much less likely armed robbery of a gas station..

So you haven't been watching the news about all the illegal guns being sold to Mexico?

Its not that you haven't seen it, you just have it in your mind that thugs dress a certain way.

[BGutzman]

you just have it in your mind that thugs dress a certain way

Whats more likely in a real day in real life?? That a guy in a business suit walks up and starts shooting up a gas station as part of a hold up or some guy tattooed from head to toe whos to lazy to even try to form full words and pull his/her britches up?

Fast and Felonious certainly has its thugs in suits but they are unlikely to personally be shooting up the place..... Even in F & F I think we would tend to find different attire with most of the shooters.

Whos more likely to rob you someone with a greater level of weath than you or the person who is predatory and finds personally imposed violent crime is a good way to make money to live hand to mouth?

[Rusty35]

BGutzman
Quote:
you just have it in your mind that thugs dress a certain way
Whats more likely in a real day in real life.... That a guy in a business suit walks up and starts shooting up a gas station as part of a hold up or some guy tattooed from head to toe whos to lazy to even try to form full words and pull his/her britches up?

Fast and Felonious certainly has its thugs but they are unlikely to personally be shooting up the place.....

Whos more likely to rob you someone with a greater level of weath than you or the person who is predatory and finds personally imposed violent crime is a good way to make money to live hand to mouth?


So far in my experience,The person with the greater wealth.

[MTT TL]

What do cowboys dress like? Is it like thugs?

If someone wears a cowboy hat can they not be a thug?

Or will they have to be a cowboy?

[Young.Gun.612]

Ah yes, I was wondering when we'd get to this. The other surefire way to identify a ne'er-do-well, TATTOOS! Surely the only people who would get tattoos are ones whose nefarious acts prove they are up to no good!

It's not the 1950s. Doctors, teachers, lawyers, EVERYONE has tattoos. No longer does a tattoo mean this person is of less than reputable character.

I will concede that dress, mannerisms, tattoos, and LOCATION when all bundled together may indicate more awareness is needed. But if you're in a relatively docile part of town and you see someone in loose fitting jeans with some tattoos showing, heck maybe even has his hat on crooked, chances are the guy is no more a threat to your safety than you are to his.

[BGutzman]

So far in my experience,The person with the greater wealth.

Really because Im willing to be the overall crime statistics for any given state wouldnt support that assumption... You personal experince could well be totally true and without being sarcastic Id love to hear about it in an different thread... :cool:

Im willing to bet that more numbers of murderous and violent felons wear hoodies than Armani... I am looking forward to seeing the Armani suits on the cops shows though... it would add a touch of class...:rolleyes:

I get the point that anyone can be violent but my point is on average the guy in a mid priced business suits a lot less likely to commit forced entry or armed robbery than the guy or gal in a hoodie... (by sheer statistical numbers)

Its not a color or a lack of color thing, its just the simple truth...

[Rusty35]

MTT TL
Senior Member

What do cowboys dress like? Is it like thugs?

If someone wears a cowboy hat can they not be a thug?

Or will they have to be a cowboy?

Here in West Texas the Cowboys wear hoodies, as do the cotton farmers and rough necks on the oil field.

Most of our thugs wear suits, or clothes they have stolen.

[MTT TL]

I don't have a tattoo....

or a hoodie...


But I see cowboys wear hoodies. This must be why cow punching is so dangerous.

[Rusty35]

Young.Gun.612
Senior Member

Ah yes, I was wondering when we'd get to this. The other surefire way to identify a ne'er-do-well, TATTOOS! Surely the only people who would get tattoos are ones whose nefarious acts prove they are up to no good!

It's not the 1950s. Doctors, teachers, lawyers, EVERYONE has tattoos. No longer does a tattoo mean this person is of less than reputable character.

I will concede that dress, mannerisms, tattoos, and LOCATION when all bundled together may indicate more awareness is needed. But if you're in a relatively docile part of town and you see someone in loose fitting jeans with some tattoos showing, heck maybe even has his hat on crooked, chances are the guy is no more a threat to your safety than you are to his.

Agreed, and also some Doctors,Lawyers and Teachers are thugs.
And some guy with loose fitting jeans and tattoos is very likely to be one of
us, since most of us wear clothes that are to large tin order to conceal our hand gun.

[Alaska444]

Yeah, the guys in the suits might steal the money, but they are not the ones doing home invasions, or selling drugs outside my house, or mugging the neighbors. On the other hand, I am not too worried about the guys in the suits since that is what I had to wear when I was working. I didn't steal anyone's money, I worked up to 80 hours a week every week day in, day out. Never once did a man in a suit ever once bother me. Can't say the same for the gangsta style folks.

[Alaska444]

Today, 08:10 PM #97
Rusty35
Member

Agreed, and also some Doctors,Lawyers and Teachers are thugs.
And some guy with loose fitting jeans and tattoos is very likely to be one of
us, since most of us wear clothes that are to large tin order to conceal our hand gun.

Man, you must live in a rough neighborhood. I have no problem CCW my EDC under my suit. Makes it quite easy really.

BTW, I have never once met a doctor in my entire medical career that I would call a thug. Not sure why you are picking on docs, but I am no thug young man.

[Rusty35]

Alaska444
Senior Member

Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 873

Today, 08:10 PM #97
Rusty35
Member

Quote:
Agreed, and also some Doctors,Lawyers and Teachers are thugs.
And some guy with loose fitting jeans and tattoos is very likely to be one of
us, since most of us wear clothes that are to large tin order to conceal our hand gun.
Man, you must live in a rough neighborhood. I have no problem CCW my EDC under my suit. Makes it quite easy really.

Yeah its pretty rough here, I wear a hoodie, and I dont steal anyone's money either, I have stuck my whole arm up a cows but, and I am sure she thought I was a thug, and now hates anyone wearing hoodies.

[bitttorrrent]

Get over it.

When I am in a black area I am targeted.

I was just pulled over and frisked and they took my knife away from me and thought I was trying to buy drugs or something.

The cops told me there were only 3 reasons a white guy would be in that area: drugs, guns and women I think. How about some f...ing gas since I had to get off the expressway on the south side and fill up. Idiots.

On the other hand, if there are black guys with hoodies walking around my house it might be the same for them.

In the end, if you are not doing anything wrong, than don't worry about it. If you are, than that is why you are yelling.

Those cops told me to get lost and go home. Ok, I had been hanging with a few friends prior and did have a beer or too a few hours ago, but they were nice enough to let me go on my way so they could find some real criminals who have hard drugs etc. instead of a can of baby powder from Costco.

[MTT TL]

BTW, I have never once met a doctor in my entire medical career that I would call a thug. Not sure why you are picking on docs, but I am no thug young man.

I met Hassan. He was a just a confused young man back then. He later turned into a thug and a doctor of sorts. Psychopath more like it.

[Rusty35]

Alaska444
Senior Member
Man, you must live in a rough neighborhood. I have no problem CCW my EDC under my suit. Makes it quite easy really.

BTW, I have never once met a doctor in my entire medical career that I would call a thug. Not sure why you are picking on docs, but I am no thug young man.

So you are saying we shouldn't judge a book by its cover?

I wear a hoodie and I'm not a thug young man.

[BGutzman]

So you are saying we shouldn't judge a book by its cover? I wear a hoodie and I'm not a thug young man

And yet how many people wear this same clothing and are thugs and yet for your sake were just supposed to assume that everyone who wears this same clothing isnt... You could choose to wear something that was less commonly worn by thugs but you dont and then you complain when you end up categorized with the same group and yet your totally aware that this could happen and you still choose to wear it.... wow amazing.

Im not saying that everyone who wears a hoodie is a criminal but when you add the circumstances and the environment and the clothing to a given situation it may not be an unreasonable assumption.

If you wear the same thing that much of the people who commit street crime wear then assume at some point you might get treated for what your clothes are advertising that you might be. maybe its time to accept that your choosing to exercise your freedom in such a way that its going to have its occasional unpleasantries.

[Young.Gun.612]

It's not up to US to change our dress to fit your paranoia and suspicion. That's the crux of the argument, more often than not, someone dressed in a hoodie IS NOT going to perpetrate a crime. Just because criminals wear hoodies doesn't mean anyone wearing a hoodie is a criminal.

That's the same argument anti gunners use against us, they penalize the item not the crime/criminal.

Bgutzman, you live in Minneapolis, how many people this time of year do you see in dark hooded jackets, or parkas with their hands in their pockets? Probably a lot, since its cold here. Do you automatically suspect they are up to no good? I mean, even the thugs over by Lowry/Lyndale get cold, so anyone bundled up could be a thug too, right?
Go to uptown, then go over North. You'll see people dressed almost identically, but one set is far more likely to be involved in criminal activity than the other. But based on what's been said here you'd view both with equal suspicion.

[Rusty35]

BGutzman
Senior Member

Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 1,438

Quote:
So you are saying we shouldn't judge a book by its cover? I wear a hoodie and I'm not a thug young man
And yet how many people wear this same clothing and are thugs and yet for your sake were just supposed to assume that everyone who wears this same clothing isnt... You could choose to wear something that was less commonly worn by thugs but you dont and then you complain when you end up categorized with the same group and yet your totally aware that this could happen and you still choose to wear it.... wow amazing.

Im not saying that everyone who wears a hoodie is a criminal but when you add the circumstances and the environment and the clothing to a given situation it may not be an unreasonable assumption.

If you wear the same thing that much of the people who commit street crime wear then assume at some point you might get treated for what your clothes are advertising that you might be. maybe its time to accept that your choosing to exercise your freedom in such a way that its going to have its occasional unpleasantries.

I dont complain about being mistaken for a thug.
I just stated that the vast majority of the non thug population wear hoodies.
A thug is a Thug, his clothing is irrelevant, as is the type of crime he commits.

Holder is a thug.
Bloomberg is a thug.
These guys scare me.

Some gang banger wearing wearing his pants around his ankles trying to look like a tough guy, doesn't scare me.

[BGutzman]

But based on what's been said here you'd view both with equal suspicion.

Don’t forget about the environment and situation.... I don’t assume that everyone who wears a hoodie is a criminal.

However if I’m at the gas station or a similar small store and its very early or very late and I see gang hand signs, see people who don’t know how to pull up the pants and generally have a hard time finding the energy to say the word "you" and are wildly covered in tattoos or colored bandanas (gang colors) and all wearing the same types of things then I make some assumptions...

Funny how no one gets upset when I make assumptions about some elderly person who might need assistance with a flat tire on the side of the road.... Never makes the paper that I insulted them by assuming things about them and then helped them.

Its all situation and environment dependent. As a young man in my twenty’s I took on three men in a stairwell acting in an attempt to rape a young woman... I didn’t physically have to fight them but only because I happened to be about twice the size of any one of them... Intimidation and outright anger was enough and help was near but that doesn’t mean my assumption was wrong... Or maybe I should have assumed that by blocking her way and not allowing her to pass was a friendly gesture, especially when they started to put hands on her and tell her that she was now their date and they were going to have fun..

My point being the situation and the environment offer clues.... No its not 100% and sometime good people end up feeling harassed but in the end if they are doing nothing wrong then they go on their way.

[Alaska444]

Do you wear a black hoodie when it is 110 degrees outside in the burning heat? The thugs over here do that. I suspect that what we are talking about is not for folks that are cold and keeping warm.

[Rusty35]

Alaska444
Senior Member

Do you wear a black hoodie when it is 110 degrees outside in the burning heat? The thugs over here do that. I suspect that what we are talking about is not for folks that are cold and keeping warm.

What it seems we are talking about is, I shouldn't wear a hoodie so that I am not confused with a thug.

What would you think if you saw me wearing a $1600.00 Giorgio Armani navy wool-cashmere 3-button overcoat in 110 degree weather?

Seems we have gone from wearing a hoodie makes you look like a thug, to wearing a coat in the summer looks suspicious.

[MTT TL]

What would you think if you saw me wearing a $1600.00 Giorgio Armani navy wool-cashmere 3-button overcoat in 110 degree weather?

One of two thoughts:
- Where did he steal that from?
- I wonder if he has any class III weapons under there?

Of course my ideas are likely different than most people....

[Alaska444]

Ay, yah, Ay. Oh well, wear your coat in the summer and see how much attention the cops give you. It is simply out of place implying impropriety of some type. Here in this city, that would almost uniformly be gang related. I would suggest for your own safety you don't wear a black hoodie in the wrong neighborhood. You won't have to worry a bit about the cops who may harrass you, but the gangs might just mistake you for a rival.

Nevertheless, if you feel like wearing that stuff in 110 degree heat, go for it. Not any of my business.

Have a good day.

[Rusty35]

Alaska444
Senior Member

Ay, yah, Ay. Oh well, wear your coat in the summer and see how much attention the cops give you. It is simply out of place implying impropriety of some type. Here in this city, that would almost uniformly be gang related. I would suggest for your own safety you don't wear a black hoodie in the wrong neighborhood. You won't have to worry a bit about the cops who may harrass you, but the gangs might just mistake you for a rival.

Nevertheless, if you feel like wearing that stuff in 110 degree heat, go for it. Not any of my business.

Have a good day.

I dont wear a coat in the summer, and I dont wear a hoodie in the summer.

I wear a hoodie in the spring and fall and a coat in the winter.
But because you saw a "thug" wearing a hoodie in the summer, I shouldnt ever wear a hoodie because you think it makes me look like a thug.

[MTT TL]

Dood, you should just let it go....

[Alaska444]

If you want to wear a black hoodie go for it. None of my business.

Have a nice day.

[markj]

What do cowboys dress like? Is it like thugs?

If someone wears a cowboy hat can they not be a thug?

Or will they have to be a cowboy?


Silly, the bad cowboys wear black hats......

It is winter here, and cold, everyone is wearing a hoodie it seems.......

Sounds like a case of bored cop syndrome....

[gc70]

It's not up to US to change our dress to fit your paranoia and suspicion. That's the crux of the argument, more often than not, someone dressed in a hoodie IS NOT going to perpetrate a crime. Just because criminals wear hoodies doesn't mean anyone wearing a hoodie is a criminal.

There is a horse in one pen and a tiger in another; which pen would you feel safer entering?

People make initial threat assessments based on individual or societal experiences in comparison to what they can observe. If something or someone looks similar to a previously-experienced danger, it is only sensible to be wary.

Dress as you wish, but don't complain when strangers treat you in a manner consistent with what they can observe and in a way to protect themselves.

[MLeake]

Ok, guys, full disclosure, I've owned and worn a couple hoodies.

One was a black Carhartt that I bought while on a road trip; I hadn't packed anything for rain, and it turned nasty in Raleigh. Most price-efficient item I could find, quickly, was that hoodie.

The other was a Patriots hoodie, that I'd wear to the gym. Just realized i gave that one to my mother a little while back, so yes, my mom sometimes wears a hoodie.

So icedog88 and Young.Gunr.612, and Rusty35 and markj all raise valid points.

My anti-hoodie bias comes primarily from teens and twenty-somethings in FL, GA, and NC who wear the things in warm weather, hoods up; and even in reasonable weather, seem to try to obscure their faces with hoods and sunglasses. Anti-social behaviors, ranging from rudeness to shoving to actual criminal activity seem to go hand-in-hand with those combinations of clothing and, yes, behavior.

So, no, assuming Young.Gunr.612 was just wearing a hoodie in normal weather for the garment, and did not seem to be concealing his face or acting like he was hiding something (like a gun) in the front pocket, I would probably not think he was a thug.

The behavioral argument guys have a very good point.

And I never intended this to be about race, per se, but it really seems to want to go there. More full disclosure: my dad's best friend, from his own time in the Navy, was black. Stereotype haters, beware - they met at OCS, and my dad, the white guy, had to help teach the black guy to swim. His friend, the black guy, had to help the slow white guy pass the run. Stereotype held, but didn't turn out to be negative in their case.

I only met the man a couple times, as he lived a long way from where our family had ended up.

I have friends from a variety of races, and would prefer not to see this turn into a race-baiting thing.

With regard to the OP, as I noted in an earlier response to this thread, if the officer didn't call for backup or even call in the stop, I have a hard time believing he was fully acting in good faith. Conn.Trooper, what is your take on that aspect? Would it be normal to stop a possible armed robber in that manner?

[Rusty35]

MLeake

No monsters here.;)
I am firmly on the fence on this topic.

A person pointing a gun at a bank teller fits the profile of a bank robber.
A person wearing his britches around his ankles, with his face covered and his hands in his pocket, fits the profile of a trouble maker.

My 80 year old mother raking leaves in her yard wearing a hoodie does not fit the profile of a thug, and expecting her not to wear a hoodie because a certain element has adopted them is unreasonable.

Me driving a $500,000.00 tractor on the farm wearing a hoodie does not fit the profile of a thug, and expecting me to change the way I dress is out of line.

That said none of the folks supporting "hoodie profiling" would be likely to profile me or my mother as thugs, some folks just get a little passionate about the way they see things.:)

Any good discussion needs 2 points of view at a minimum.

[icedog88]

Total agreement with the last 2 posts.

MLeake: I knew you were a hoodie owner;)

[Glenn Dee]

I'm glad the thread is still open. I can add my $.50 worth.

Does anyone even bother to read ConnTrooper's posts?

The police are not perfect. They dont get it absoloutly correct each and every time. As I read it they were responding to a radio description of a person wanted for a past crime. They saw from their window into another car window, and percieved the possibility that the person in the other could be their subject. They stopped the car and did a complete investigation. As a police officer I may have handled it differently. But as soon as they were satisfied they apologized and ended the stop. It is what it is. The police werent profiling the description, not any particular people.

As far as profiling in general. As civilians everyone has every right to percieve, and judge people based on any criteria they choose. Their resultant actions is what could cause problems, and get them into trouble.

With the Police it is very different. The police are regulated, and subject to rules, and the rule of law. The most common abuse is using statistics, often not scientific to justify racial, cultural, or religious profiling. For example " Most armed robbers are blacks so therefore it is justified to stop and frisk blacks at will in order to reduce crime" IMO this is flawed logic. Even if the premis was correct, there are better and more efficient ways of stopping armed robbers. Also most police departments reflect the community they serve. If a community is mostly white their police department would be sensitive to a black person being in that comunity. Depending on the maturaty, and professionalism of that department the reaction may be from professional to criminal.

Having said that... I believe it is perfectly legal, and proper for the police to use profiling as a tool. As long at the profiling is not anchored in race, religion, sexual preference, age, or any other constitutionally protected personage. (everyone) But that race, age, Etc. may be a component of the profile.

[ThorInc]

I'll add my 2 cents, lol.

Do I think it (skin colour or "suspicious" behavior) constitutes being pulled over, no I don't. However, it's reality.

A long time ago I learned that once you are dealing with a person with a badge and a weapon, I expect pretty well anything as they are trained to be "aggressive" and "take charge" :o. Many time they are in "one of those moods" and I really don't have any idea what their day has been like so I generally expect them to overstep their bounds and of course assume I am guilty of something, black/white/brown/yellow don't really factor in for me. I have to assume they are looking for something and I don't plan on giving it to them if I can help it. On the same token, they are there to serve and protect but that's for another thread :D.

Edit: As for the hoodie, should not be worn in an enclosed environment IMO....can easily be misconstrued.

[icedog88]

But as soon as they were satisfied they apologized and ended the stop. It is what it is. The police werent profiling the description, not any particular people.

But if this stop actually happened as described, are they not required to record the stop? This brings up two questions in my mind. #1 Did the stop really occur?

#2 If it did occur, what reason would they have for not logging it?

Look, I get cops are not perfect, but if they screw up, it needs to be addressed. I can concede the point of pulling the car over based on a glimpse of a person in dim light, raining. I may even stretch to believe the handcuffing. But to not record or log the stop especially if it is dept procedure, smacks of something amiss. Then, by not to far of a stretch, if, they violated procedure, why? The mentality that cops can get a free pass because they are exposed to danger all the time doesn't wash. If they break their laws(regs), they need to be called to answer for it. Same as the rest.

[Aguila Blanca]

I just stated that the vast majority of the non thug population wear hoodies.
I don't think you wrote what you intended to say. If you DID write what you meant, I want hard numbers to document your hypothesis. What IS the total non-thug population in the U.S., and of that total exactly how many really wear hoodies? I'm a non-thug, as is my entire family. The only member of my family who has ever worm a hoodie is my 16-year old daughter -- and she doesn't own a black hoodie.

What you wrote is that, out of the total population who are not thugs, most ("the vast majority") wear hoodies. I don't think that's correct.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The vast majority of hoodie wearers aren't thugs.

The vast majority of gun owners are thugs.

The vast majority of gun owners don't wear hoodies? Wait, is this logic class?

I think the first two statements are what was trying to be said.

[Aguila Blanca]

I think the first two statements are what was trying to be said.
I don't. I think the first statement might be what was intended. I don't think the second was included.

This is why it's important for people to learn to read and write English. Words are the only medium of communication we generally have. If we can't put forth our arguments in words clear enough that readers can understand what we said ... we are not "communicating."

[ThorInc]

This is why it's important for people to learn to read and write English. Words are the only medium of communication we generally have. If we can't put forth our arguments in words clear enough that readers can understand what we said ... we are not "communicating."

This is a dead on assessment of so many "law enforcement" non-abuse of power issues.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Oh, I can't type. I apologize.

I meant:

The vast majority of hoodie wearers aren't thugs.

The vast majority of gun owners aren't thugs.

-- Duh on my part! :confused:

[Conn. Trooper]

Conn.Trooper, what is your take on that aspect? Would it be normal to stop a possible armed robber in that manner?

I wouldn't, but then cops use all different tactics based upon their training and department policy. I have no idea what cops in that area do or don't do. I would probably make sure I have a cover car and either conduct a full felony stop, or at least approach the vehicle with cover.

My take on this whole thing is just this;
1) The police have been provided a description of an armed robbery suspect.
2) At 10 p.m. (I will go out on a limb and guess it was dark) and in the rain, they saw someone they felt matched the description. There may be more to the story as far as maybe having a vehicle description also. The police don't give all the onformation to newspapers. Could be an ace in the hole that they have a vehicle from surveillance video. I am speculating here, I don't know this.
3) It was in the area of the prior robbery.
4) They made an investigatory stop and determined they didn't have the person they thought they did.
5) The person being detained was released with an apology.

I am not seeing the problem here.

As for not calling it in, so what? When my barracks is busy we do what we have to do and either create the call ourselves on our MDT's or wait until the radio slows down and call it in after. I have made stops and called them in after the fact or not at all. If the dispatch center is busy, and I have a backup car or officer with me, I would make the stop and not worry about calling it in. Could be this is what happened and they forgot to call it in, or just got busy and never did it. I don't see anything sinister in this.

[Conn. Trooper]

On a side note, I "profile" every day. Not racial profiling, but vehicles. I see a car with one plate, maybe stuck on the dashboard and not mounted on the car, whatever. I know from my training and experience that persons driving unregistered cars, or cars with switched/stolen plates, will often take any plate they find or steal and throw it on the dash or the back window and away they go.

I see a vehicle that is dirty, and has a clean plate held on with one new shiny screw, I pay attention to that car.

I see a combination or commercial plate being displayed on a car, I pay attention.

I see a vehicle with a broken vent window, I pay attention.

I see a vehicle with recent damage, I pay attention.

None of the above ( besides the plate being on the dash and not securely mounted, that is illegal per CGS 14-18c) are illegal, but they are indicators of possible illegal activity.

Anybody that racially profiles is a moron, there are criminals of every shape, size and color, dedicating yourself to looking at one race is foolish. I look for criminals every day, black, white, green or smurf blue.

[Tommy Vercetti]

I get pulled over a lot once they figure out that I'm an American Indian instead of a Mexican I get a verbal warning to slow down, I sometimes drift up to almost 5 miles over the speed limit like almost everyone else on the road, I got pulled over on my Harley once and the LEO said I was going too slow (40 in a 45 but I was stuck behind someone) he asked if I was American Indian and then we talked about motorcycles for 5 minutes

[Alaska444]

Dear Conn Trooper,

If you come across someone in a black hoodie in 110 degree heat in the middle of the day, what are your thoughts as a trooper?

[Conn. Trooper]

Something is up. Or he is mentally ill.

[gofast1320]

Did anyone read the second half of my post # 40. I tried to recreate the "radio soup" that does occur on calls like this.

It is very possible the officer driving was out the door with his gun out as his partner was on the mic radioing to dispatch where they were and who with yet most of the transmission was lost, stepped on, etc and the amount of traffic covered the part that was heard. The passenger once he keyed up and transmitted was out of the car backing up his partner.
When they got back in service that was it. 185 in service, or 185 back 10-8, or 185 10-8. As far as they knew they got out on the call and got back in. End of story.

[Rusty35]

Aguila Blanca
Senior Member

Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 2,260

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty35
I just stated that the vast majority of the non thug population wear hoodies.
I don't think you wrote what you intended to say. If you DID write what you meant, I want hard numbers to document your hypothesis. What IS the total non-thug population in the U.S., and of that total exactly how many really wear hoodies? I'm a non-thug, as is my entire family. The only member of my family who has ever worm a hoodie is my 16-year old daughter -- and she doesn't own a black hoodie.

What you wrote is that, out of the total population who are not thugs, most ("the vast majority") wear hoodies. I don't think that's correct.

Ok so I may have overstepped with the"vast majority" bit.

Rephrase.
Every one I know wears a hoodie.

I dont personally know any thugs.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

110 degrees. Common in TX - but the kids wear hoodies because that is their uniform driven by adolescent conformity.

It is cold by TX standards now - 40 to 50 with cold rain. But we see kids in T shirts and shorts - because it is another uniform.

So I wouldn't overinterpret stupid teenagers.

[Rusty35]

Glenn E. Meyer
Staff

110 degrees. Common in TX - but the kids wear hoodies because that is their uniform driven by adolescent conformity.

It is cold by TX standards now - 40 to 50 with cold rain. But we see kids in T shirts and shorts - because it is another uniform.

So I wouldn't overinterpret stupid teenagers.

Sure fire recipe for insanity;)

[MLeake]

Stupid teenagers I encountered yesterday were not wearing hoodies. They were dressed more country boy style, and driving jacked 4x4s.

Problem was, they were racing through town in a 25mph, pedestrian shopping area. Their engines seemed to be supercharged, and they had loud pipes. This was in an area with a lot of Amish, and a lot of horses and buggies on the road. Horses do not react well to loud engines. Pedestrians do not react well to getting run over by large trucks.

Stupidity has no dress code.

I'd hate to see these two yahoos with firearms...