Revolving Colt carbine

[madcratebuilder]

I have not seen this replica before. Saw it at a shop on Monday while on a road trip. Called them yesterday and bought it. UPS was pretty fast for standard shipping with in the state.

This is a Pietta .44 Navy style brass frame, half fluted cylinder. I have a Pietta Navy style steel frame in the parts box, it has a loose arbor. I need to fix that and use it with this revolver. Then a conversion cylinder may be in order.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/revolvingcarbine01.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/revolvingcarbine02.jpg

[Fingers McGee]

Hey MCB. I've got a Dance, wanna trade :D

FM

[madcratebuilder]

I lined up all four of my stocked revolvers, looking forward to taking these out and make smoke.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/rcarbine01.jpg

[Raider2000]

I'm jelouse, I want one.

[.284]

I have always wanted to get a get one of those for blackpowder hunting. I have a couple of questions. First, what kind of accuracy and range can I expect? Second, I have heard you are not supposed to hold the gun ahead of the cylinder because of the risk of a chain fire?

[Delmar]

I have heard you are not supposed to hold the gun ahead of the cylinder because of the risk of a chain fire? Not blowing tour hand off is a good thing.

[Delmar]

This is a Pietta .44 Navy style brass frame, half fluted cylinder. I have a Pietta Navy style steel frame in the parts box, it has a loose arbor. I need to fix that and use it with this revolver. Then a conversion cylinder may be in order.Wouldn't it be easier to leave that one as is, and put a conversion cylinder on the Remmie?

[madcratebuilder]

I have always wanted to get a get one of those for blackpowder hunting. I have a couple of questions. First, what kind of accuracy and range can I expect? Second, I have heard you are not supposed to hold the gun ahead of the cylinder because of the risk of a chain fire?

Accuracy can be as good as 2-3 moa @ 50yds, even better if you practice a lot. The 15 inch Remington and Dragoon should be even better, 1-2 moa. The longer sight radius helps a lot. You need to take the time and learn what load your particular revolver likes, ball, powder charge, lube all well have an effect. That is minute of deer in my book.

I can hold these stocked revolver steadier than a rifle for some reason. I hold them in a different stance than I do a regular revolver. Elbows in tight and stock pulled in tight to the shoulder. If I can lean my back against a tree or other support I can almost be perfectly steady. Makes me want to shoulder stock my scoped super blackhawk. Damn NFA laws!

As far as range it well depend on what revolver you choose. The Dragoon can be loaded with more powder and a heavy conical bullet. I think you could have an ethical kill out to 60-80 yds. The Remington and holster frame Colts have smaller chambers and I would think 40-50yds would be a max range for an ethical kill.

Like any revolver you have hot gas escape at the barrel to cylinder gap so you want to keep your hand well away from that. Shouldering these like a rifle you tend to want to put your free hand forward, just remember to use a typical two hand revolver hold. The Remington with it's fancy trigger guard gives you an added area to grip.


Wouldn't it be easier to leave that one as is, and put a conversion cylinder on the Remmie?

But the easy way is not as much fun;)

[Delmar]

I can think of a couple of things that are more fun than having a Remmie carbine
with a .45 LC conversion cylinder, but they all involve Mrs Delmar and you don't need to know!

[enyaw]

I read an article years ago about blackpowder revolver deer hunting in a gun or hunting magazine. The author was a well known experienced shooter and hunter. Knew what he was talking about.
The range he gave for a middlin sized deer with a full loaded Remington revolver with a normal standard length barrel and round balls was a 35 yard maximum. I'd agree with him if the shooter was a good enough shot to place the ball in the center of the kill zone 100% of the time with a revolver.
I've heard reports from people ,shooting deer illegally on farms or using a black powder revolver that is illegal to use in my state for deer, that shooting a decent sized doe deer with a Remington standard model had the deer running away as if it wasn't hit at all and not being found thru tracking....at close ranges of 30-40 yards. That's why I say the ball has to be placed in the center of the kill zone 100% of the time. Using a blackpowder revolver to kill a deeer may be a feat that is memorable but...shooting a beautiful animal to have it run off and die a slow miserable death isn't too memorable.
I'd say to hunt with a blackpowder revolver you'd have to modify the old addage of,"minimum 500ft/lbs. muzzle energy at 100 yards to kill deer ethically". Take the pistol and it's lesser muzzle energy and see if you may modify the hunting and be ethical by staying at close range maximum range for the shots. Check out the energy produced by the revolvers and the balls and powder loads and use a ratio to compare what the ft/lbs of energy should be to kill deer at a close range.I'd guess a load from a Dragoon could be used as a foundation or standard to follow if a person knows that a load of at least 250 ft/lbs would surfice at what ever range that could be achieved. My opinion would be that maybe 300ft/lbs energy may be more ethical at the short ranges.
The load I got from a loading manual for a Dragoon revolver with a standard length barrel gives MV-1142fps and vel. at 50 yards-925fps with the corresponding energy at the muzzle 408fpe(ft.lbs. energy) and at 50 yards 268ft/lbs energy. The 268 is weak so the range of the Dragoon using the ball and 50gr.FFFg black powder powder would be less than 50 yards. I'd say the max range with a load like that would be more like 30-35 yards and that would be a middlin sized deer and not a big buck.
Using the conical(that should be flat faced as much as possible since round nose bullets are less effective on game) would lengthen the range.
Same gun using 40gr. FFFg and the 220gr. Lee conical would give MV-905 and a muzzle energy of 400fpe. At fifty yards it would be 846 fps vel. and 350fpe(ft.lbs energy) for the energy. That may be an ethical load out to 50 yards then. That's all data from a 7.5 inch Dragoons barrel.
I'd say that delving into vel. and energy using Hodgdons 777 Powder would give better stats for hunting since 777 is a hot powder.
Personally I'd try the 777 for accuracy and eneregy and use it if it produced good results in a revolver.

Just thought I'd edit and add this info I saw in the Black Powder loading manual. The author knows what he's talking about I'd guess and....he listed loads for single shot pistols that would have loads designated BC for Big Game loads. The only ones designated so were the ones producing very close to 500ft/lbs energy. You know like a single shot muzleloading pistol producing about 482 ft/lbs energy. I guess the 500 ft/lbs energy rule at whatever range does it is a good one as a standard to follow for deer hunting whether it be a rifle or revolver or single shot pistol. What ever range gives the 500ft/lbs energy or very close to that.
The single shot pistol that gave almost 500ft/lbs at 50 yards was the Harpers Ferry 1855. An 18 inch barreled Dragoon with 45gr. FFFg had a "muzzle energy" of 504ft/lbs with a round ball and a muzzle energy of 606ft/lbs with 35gr.FFFg and the Lee 220gr. conical. That long barreled Dragoon had 507ft.lbs at 50 yards with the 35gr. FFFg and the 220gr. conical. That would put it 50 yards max range for deer with the heavy conical and the 35gr. FFFg black powder.
I'd guess the use of 777 powder could up the range some since that powder is pretty hot.
Just thought I'd add a little more insight to whether or not a Dragoon could be used as a deer hunter and get the job done.
There it is...50 yards max range with the 220 gr. conical and 35gr. FFFg powder.
The round ball had only 349ft/lbs at 50 yards in the long 18 inch Dragoon barrel. That would put it's max range with the ball somewhere around 35 yards. Same max range as the author of the Gun Mag article I read years ago put on a Remington revolver using 35gr. black powder.
Well...hope this info is of interest to anyone wanting to ethically deer hunt with a blackpowder revolver. If it were me I'd be opting for the Walker for hunting deer with a revolver. That gun and 40-45gr. FFFg powder and the heavy conical would be a little better to use.
There's a formula for Knock Out energy that formulates into the equation somehow how the projectile respnds upon hitting certain types of material. That response a projectile has when it hits is important since it superceds the plain old eneregy formula. Why? I can explain it from info gleaned from the field.
In the advent of the 357 magnum touted as the most powderful hand gun in the world at that time hunting guides for big bear switched over to it from the 45 Colt cartridge for backup revolvers. Even though the energy on paper was supposedly there when the big bears were hit with the light weight 38cal. bullet all it did was make them mad. Didn't do much damage going into the thick hair and tough sinewy muscle of a big bear. The guides switched back to the slower moving heavier bullet 45 Colt because it did do some damage to a big bear. That info could give a person insight when comparing a light round ball to a heavy conical fired from a percussion revolver.
That kinda lets a person reason that the 45 Colt cartridge from a conversion cylinder in a Dragoon would be the ticket for short range deer hunting. Makes sense to me.
Wonder if anyone has bothered to read this after I took the time to post it? Maybe a person wanting to deer hunt with a cap&ball revolver will find it interesting.
One thought I';ve had about shoulder stocked cap&baller revolvers is the stocks are too short and keep the gun too close to the face of the shooter. If it were me I think I'd lengthen the wood so I could get a length of pull of about 24 inches to get the revolver out where it is or would be when shooting without a shoulder stock. That would be more comfortable to me.......a longer length of pull...the distance from the butt of the stock to the trigger.

[sundance44s]

MCB how is the stock attached to the brass frame revolver ???
I don`t remember ever seeing one quite like that one .

[Major 2]

A heads up..Not sure you plan this
DO NOT use the Conversion Cylinder with the BRASS frame gun.
Your fine with the steel frame and both Kenny Howell @ R&D and Wm. Kirst
make drop-ins...Both will tell you "not to be use in Brass frame guns".

I have an R&D in a 2nd Gen. Colt Black Powder Series 1960 Army.
It has/will shoot 45 LC Black Hills & 45 Schofield and is a hoot to do so.
I've had many Cartridge rounds through it and countless C&B I owned the gun 30 + years...and it still as tight today as it was in 1978 when I bought it NIB.

[madcratebuilder]

MCB how is the stock attached to the brass frame revolver ???
I don`t remember ever seeing one quite like that one .

It has the typical Colt gripe frame that screws to the frame of the revolver. Instead of being two piece trigger guard/grip frame the TG and GF are cast as a single piece and it has a tang that attaches the stock with two screws that enter at the bottom of the tang. This is the first one of these I have seen too. Good old Pietta, they make a lot of different styles.

[Deadguy]

Also, DO NOT use a cartridge conversion on a shoulder stocked revolver with a barrel under 16" long. If you do, you are making a "short barreled rifle" that you must register and pay a tax according to the NFA.

[Raider2000]

Also, DO NOT use a cartridge conversion on a shoulder stocked revolver with a barrel under 16" long. If you do, you are making a "short barreled rifle" that you must register and pay a tax according to the NFA.

That advice is 100% sound & I agree, just didn't think of it at the time.

[madcratebuilder]

The gun in question is not a shoulder stocked revolver but a revolving carbine. The stock is not detachable.

In it's current configuration as a C&B it is exempt from NFA rule. With a conversion cylinder installed it would be considered a antique firearm?

From ATF's NFA guide:

(16) The term "antique firearm"
means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm
with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition
system) manufactured in or before
1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described
in subparagraph (A) if such
replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned
for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition which
is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not
readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle
loading shotgun, or muzzle loading
pistol, which is designed to use
black powder, or a black powder
substitute, and which cannot use
fixed ammunition. For purposes of
this subparagraph, the term "antique
firearm" shall not include any weapon
which incorporates a firearm frame or
receiver, any firearm which is converted
into a muzzle loading weapon,
or any muzzle loading weapon which
can be readily converted to fire fixed
ammunition by replacing the barrel,
bolt, breechblock, or any combination
thereof.

It's clear as mud, it would be a NFA firearm with a conversion cylinder installed and would be considered a short barreled rifle if the barrel is under 16 inches in length. Take the conversion cylinder out and it's NFA exempt.

Another reason not to buy a conversion cylinder. If I put it in the wrong gun I could go to jail and even worse lose my collection. Possible just having one in my possession would be bad juju.

[Gator_Weiss]

Is there enough power and energy in the cap and ball revolving carbines to hunt anything bigger than a squirrel or rabbit?

If we took a shot at a deer with a .44 cal cap and ball revolving carbine, we know we are losing some energy between the barrel and the cylinder. We also know that we are dealing with a very light projectile insofar as black powder is concerned, and we are dealing with smaller powder charges that are normally fired in the revolvers.

I have not fired one of these. They are damned good looking pieces, and would be fun as hell to shoot.

The shooter that mentioned hunting with one -do you think anything bigger than small game at close ranges would be effective?

Now the Walker - that is a larger cylinder that holds a much heavier powder charge. With a conical bullet, and a stock mounted, the Walker might possibly generate enough energy to snipe at a deer with at a close to moderate range - perhaps from a tree stand or blind.

What are your thoughts on this?

I think if I was going to buy one of these revolving carbines, I would like to try the Remington. Strong frame, steel, and a slightly larger powder capacity in the Remington cylinder.

[bprevolver]

Madcratebuilder:

You have a pretty rare carbine. I have one NIB that I purchased from Cabela's back in 1998. They were only on the market for a couple of years.

Fingers McGee: You mention have a Dance revolver? Is it a Pietta .44cal. or .36cal.? Maybe a Uberti?????

[bprevolver]

Madcratebuilder:

You have a pretty rare carbine. I have one NIB that I purchased from Cabela's back in 1998. They were only on the market for a couple of years.

Fingers McGee: You mention have a Dance revolver? Is it a Pietta .44cal. or .36cal.? Maybe a Uberti?????

[Raider2000]

Is there enough power and energy in the cap and ball revolving carbines to hunt anything bigger than a squirrel or rabbit?

If we took a shot at a deer with a .44 cal cap and ball revolving carbine, we know we are losing some energy between the barrel and the cylinder. We also know that we are dealing with a very light projectile insofar as black powder is concerned, and we are dealing with smaller powder charges that are normally fired in the revolvers.

I have not fired one of these. They are damned good looking pieces, and would be fun as hell to shoot.

The shooter that mentioned hunting with one -do you think anything bigger than small game at close ranges would be effective?

Now the Walker - that is a larger cylinder that holds a much heavier powder charge. With a conical bullet, and a stock mounted, the Walker might possibly generate enough energy to snipe at a deer with at a close to moderate range - perhaps from a tree stand or blind.

What are your thoughts on this?

I think if I was going to buy one of these revolving carbines, I would like to try the Remington. Strong frame, steel, and a slightly larger powder capacity in the Remington cylinder.

In comparring both the Colt 1860 Army & the Remington New Model Army the difference in powder ammount is maybe 5 grains FFFG to the Remington & very negligable in any real performance.

Now as far as taking animals with a .44 caliber C&B Revolver 8" barreled there have been quite a few persons that have used the Remington designed revolver with sucess in taking Wild pigs & Deer sized game at a resonable 30ish yards distance & ofcorse the larger Ruger O.A., Dragoon & Walker sized revolvers & practice they can certainly take Deer sized game at a little longer distance but unless you are very well practiced with a praticular weapon I wouldn't try any further than 50 yards with the larger sized ones.

[Fingers McGee]

Quote BPRevolver
Fingers McGee: You mention have a Dance revolver? Is it a Pietta .44cal. or .36cal.? Maybe a Uberti?????

Jim, It's a Traditions/Pietta .44 made in 2007. Would love to find a Uberti and a .36. Of course I'd also love to find one of the Tucker & Sherrods like MCB did.

Are you sure about the manufacture dates on the carbine? I recall seeing one in a Gun Shop in Jeff City MO. I was at a drill weekend and stopped in during lunch for some carridges & they had one in the display case. I retired from the Guard in 1994, so it had to be well before then, I'm thinking 91 or 92. I'm still kicking myself for not buying it.

[noyes]

Nice collection.

[mnw42]

I'd like to know were you got the stocks for that Colt, I'd like to find one for my 1861.

[madcratebuilder]

You have a pretty rare carbine. I have one NIB that I purchased from Cabela's back in 1998. They were only on the market for a couple of years.

Thanks Jim, I'll do some more searching using that S&G name.



Are you sure about the manufacture dates on the carbine? I recall seeing one in a Gun Shop in Jeff City MO. I was at a drill weekend and stopped in during lunch for some carridges & they had one in the display case. I retired from the Guard in 1994, so it had to be well before then, I'm thinking 91 or 92. I'm still kicking myself for not buying it.

The date stamp is 1998 on mine. I have not found any on-line info.


I'd like to know were you got the stocks for that Colt, I'd like to find one for my 1861.

If you are referring to the detachable shoulder stock, they come up on Gunbroker and even evil bay occasionally. If you want one for a 61 Navy then the 51 Navy should be the size you need. The 60 has a longer grip frame so it may use a different shoulder stock. Is your frame and bottom of the grip cut for the shoulder stock? I don't recall seeing a 61 with the frame cuts, but 61 collection is very limited. Most shoulder stocked revolvers have the fourth screw on the frame but the stock I have (Uberti) fits frames with out the fourth screw fine. You just need the cut out in the recoil shield and the grip.

[bprevolver]

I went back through 20yrs of catalogs to make sure about the dates the Schneider & Glassick Carbine was manufactured. I was unable to find anything before 1998 or after 1999. Does mean they weren't but the date codes are the only true indicator of date of manufacture.

Fingers McGee, are you sure it was a carbine with a fixed stock and not the brass frame Buntline with a stock attached. The Buntline has been around for several years.

Pietta also made 1851 Navy in .44cal. (I refer to these in our book as an 1851 Army) with a 12" barrel, steel case hard frame, and an adjustable rear sight on the barrel the same as the Carbine. I was made in 1997.

If anyone runs across the carbine with manufacture dates outside the 1997-2000 time, please post for all of us.

[Fingers McGee]

Jim,

Well,I'm pretty sure. It was over 15 years ago. I had been buying and shooting C&Bs for quite a while up to that point, and it was different than anything I had run across up til then; carbines with removeable stocks. I've been looking for one like it ever since.

Ken