Bump Firing

[kayakersteve]

Hey guys, I stumbled across this on youtube and it appears to be a technique that essentially makes a semi fire like an auto - Check out video. Would this be considered illegal??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Va1TXGSCXk&NR=1

[ilbob]

Its a technique thats been around a long time. Its a way of operating the trigger faster, thats all. Perfectly legal.

[longcoldwinter]

1)Its legal
2)it will get you kicked out of most ranges
3)its stupid to do because it increase the chances of having a round go off out of battery

[kayakersteve]

1- I'm glad!
2 - Dont use public ranges - Own my own 40 acres!
3 - I did not ask for your opinion on it, just whether it was legal!

[bcrash15]

ya, it's legal, (already knew that from the other answers). But even if your on your own place you might attract some unwanted attention as it will sound like a full-auto gun, so keep in mind who could be in hearing range.

Accuracy is nil, but that's not the point. ;)

longcoldwinter has a valid concern though, rounds going off OOB is not a trivial event (though having the gun away from your face should help somewhat if it is going to happen).

[grize]

not trying to question the validity of your statement or start an argument but could you please explain how this would increase the likelihood of the gun firing OOB?

Thanks
Matt

[bcrash15]

As it was explained to me, it is possible the risk of OOB during bump firing is more related to the style of holding the weapon rather than the rapid cycling. The rifle can be jerked some funny ways if only supported by the hand guard instead of supporting hand, firing hand, and shoulder. This could cause some guns with floating firing pins (basically all military-style guns) to experience a heavy inertial strike (where the firing pin hits the primer lightly as a result of the bolt coming closed, the gun should not fire at this point but wait until the hammer falls). So technically if this occurred it would be a slam-fire that could potentially cause an OOB firing if the action hasn't closed completely. This type of problem would be exacerbated by certain types of ammo, poor condition of the weapon, and especially a dirty/fouled action that may have more resistance to locking into battery or gunk built up on the firing pin or chamber face that makes the inertial strike worse.

Disregarding the particularities of every gun (some models may have designs that make them prone to problems), in general, I suspect a clean weapon in good shape with decent ammo shouldn't have issues if held steadily.

YMMV, so do it at your own risk ;)

[T. O'Heir]

"...just whether it was legal!..." Sure. It's an enormous waste of ammo, but there's no law anywhere about wasting ammo. Remember that any idiot can post anything on YouTube.

[tomh1426]

I never tried it, not my thing!
This way looks more fun to me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfwFP_RwTQ&feature=related

[jorjohn11]

I bought a M1A match rifle last year and took it out to sight it in and do some practice. My 10 year old grandson shot it a few times then loaded a mag up and bump fired the whole mag. :eek: I guess he also saw it on youtube.

[nate45]

I've done it with my AR and Garand from the hip with the thumb in the belt loop trick and with the AR and the rubberband. Also like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucFsWuHivYk) with a 1911.:)

[detrod]

Its a waste of perfectly good bullets.... but it is fun!

[AutoPistola]

I've never mag dumped, but I've done several two round bursts and a six round burst from a loose shoulder mount with an AK. What a rush!

I also found something for the AK that might work similar to the rubber band trick with the AR. I found a way to work a pony-tail holder through the mag release to the trigger, keeping reverse tension on it. Never tried it , as bumping is not on my agenda anymore, but I found a way that probably would not interfere with the mag release lever. I've also pondered that perhaps a spring-loaded stock could aid in bump firing.

These days I shoot for accuracy and usually have no more than 10 rounds in my 30rd mag (because I like to rack the action a lot).

[NRAhab]

I never tried it, not my thing!
This way looks more fun to me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfwF...eature=related

...holy smackeye, I know that guy. Man, the internet is a small, small world.

On an on-topic note, with the ATF's notorious history of ignoring the rules, I wouldn't even put a rubber band on my gun to help me bump-fire the thing; lord only knows they'd probably think that was a machine gun and ban rubber bands or something.

[Stagger Lee]

It's the firearms equivalent of putting a playing card in your bicycle spokes or a glasspack muffler on a Yugo. It's useless and there's no way you can do it and not appear gayer than Richard Simmons working out to an Elton John record.

If you want to be cool and have a full-auto, save your money until you can buy a real one.

[hogdogs]

stagger, There is another reason to setup a rubber band powered bump gun... Privacy... When you go tax stamp route on a full auto than you are giving up some privacy and anonymity.
One more reason is that you cannot loan out your full auto to a buddy to enjoy but you can loan out your semi-auto rifle.
Brent

[PT111]

I used to see how fast I could shoot a full tube out of my .22 when they were 50 cents a box. But at the price of ammo now it's not $20 worth of enjoyment in hearing rat-a-tat-tat. :D

[Csspecs]

Well I know what you mean about it being spendy... I made the video below before I made some 60s for my gun.... Yikes does it get loud and expensive. It's a blast to do as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkhpJZVL0Uk

[Stagger Lee]

stagger, There is another reason to setup a rubber band powered bump gun... Privacy... When you go tax stamp route on a full auto than you are giving up some privacy and anonymity.

So what? I've never had a reason to be afraid of owning something that's legal for me to own, and I don't live under the delusion that the federal government is lurking in the weeds waiting to take it away.

That aside, the whole "bumping" thing isn't anything like having a real full-auto so let's not even make the comparison. It's not reliable, you can't aim (although I know that someone will come along and post how "they" can hit every other apple on a tree four hundred yards away bump-firing their SKS...this IS the internet, after all), and the very action is fundamentally unsafe in that you're basically just spraying bullets in a general direction because you're not holding the gun tightly or using the sights. It's nothing more then self-gratification and a stunning display of immaturity. Frankly I don't want anyone who does that sort of thing anywhere around me or my family with a gun...it's the stamp of an idiot and I'm perfectly fine with anyone who puts a rubber band or a shoelace or whatever onto a semi-auto going to jail and losing the gun if they get caught...and I feel the same way about Hellfires and cranks and any other gimmicks that the Rambo wanna-be's buy. These are the jerks that make all the decent gun owners look bad.

If you want a real full-auto, save your money and buy one and shoot it responsibly. If you can't or won't do that, then shoot the semi-auto ones that you can afford in a safe, responsible manner.

[nate45]

Well, once again you opinion on a subject sounds obnoxious and condescending, but that is no surprise as you seem to have a propensity for it.

I'll call up Blake Miguez and tell him the famous firearms expert and social commentator Stagger Lee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagger_Lee) said he looked 'gayer' than Richard Simmons and also like an immature idiot while demonstrating the bump firing of a 1911.:rolleyes:

Cajun Machine Gun 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xpN3L4sqv8&NR=1)

[NRAhab]

It's probably worth pointing out that Blake is a world class IPSC shooter, and yet despite his obvious skill at bump firing his 1911, he certainly doesn't do it in competition.

Bump firing is a fun way to money in to smoke and noise certainly, but it terms of practical use it's doesn't really compare to accurate aimed fire.

[nate45]

Bump firing is a fun way to money in to smoke and noise certainly, but it terms of practical use it's doesn't really compare to accurate aimed fire.

I agree with you 100%, bump firing a 1911 or an AR or whatever is just a stunt and really serves no practical purpose. It is fun doing it though.

I was just responding to Stagger Lee's use of pejorative terms in voicing his opinion of disdain for the practice.

I read about acts and practices on this site quite often that I disagree with, or even perhaps in my opinion, find foolish. However if I comment on the subject I manage to do it without labeling those I disagree with as 'gay' immature idiots who should be in jail.

[Stagger Lee]

It's cool. Nate's just got this weird fixation that causes him to stalk me around the board and snipe at me like one of those little ankle-biter dogs. He never really adds anything to the discussion or tries to. He just hates me personally because I don't share his belief that the government is an evil force that's out to get us all. He's intolerant, immature and insecure and when people like him are hating on you, you know that you're doing something right. :cool:

[nate45]

It's the firearms equivalent of putting a playing card in your bicycle spokes or a glasspack muffler on a Yugo. It's useless and there's no way you can do it and not appear gayer than Richard Simmons working out to an Elton John record.


It's nothing more then self-gratification and a stunning display of immaturity. Frankly I don't want anyone who does that sort of thing anywhere around me or my family with a gun...it's the stamp of an idiot and I'm perfectly fine with anyone who puts a rubber band or a shoelace or whatever onto a semi-auto going to jail

Stunning maturity and tolerance in those posts.

It's cool. Nate's just got this weird fixation that causes him to stalk me around the board and snipe at me like one of those little ankle-biter dogs. He never really adds anything to the discussion or tries to. He just hates me personally because I don't share his belief that the government is an evil force that's out to get us all. He's intolerant, immature and insecure and when people like him are hating on you, you know that you're doing something right.

Another mature well thought out post with no vitriol or animosity in it.

I don't follow you around you just manage to insert your inane opinions in a lot of the same threads I've posted in.

I don't hate you I just find you're posting style and the way you talk to people behind the anonymity of the internet grating. I doubt you express yourself to people in that manner in person.

As far as the whole notion that I find the government 'evil' or out to get us. I don't know where you got that idea from, I've never posted anything like that at all. Maybe you just get that perception if anyone is remotely critical of the government, which in your view seems to be able to do no wrong.

[barnetmill]

As has already been mentioned bump firing, especially with AK's has been known to blow up rifles when the rifle fires out of battery. If you must do it, wear kevlar gloves and protect your face in some way that a gun at waist level blowing up will not send fragments to strike your face and neck.

It does look like a lot of fun, but fun usually has a downside.

[musher]

I'm thinking about this claim that bump firing can lead to out of battery firing and I'm having trouble seeing the mechanism that leads to that outcome.

In order complete a successful bump fire cycle, you need to allow the trigger to reset, then trip it again utilizing the momentum generated by recoil to move the firearm away from your finger (rather than vice versa), resetting the trigger, then using the constant counterpressure on the forearm to move the firearm towards your finger, tripping the trigger.

Assuming your firearm is functioning correctly, this should produce 1 of two results. The rifle goes into battery and tripping the trigger produces another cycle OR you rush the cyclic rate of the firearm and end up pulling the trigger too soon which gives you the same result as standard semi-auto fire--no second shot.

If you can pull the trigger and have the firearm fire out of battery, you run the risk of this happening anytime a round doesn't chamber fully. This is a defect, not a feature.

[Csspecs]

With AK's I know that there is a projection on the back of the bolt that prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin unless the bolt has closed. I would hope that most firearms have something to prevent firing out of battery.


It's not like I am risking my life by doing this... And it is fun, other wise knob creek would not have as big a turn out as it does. And machine guns would not cost 10,000+

So provided I keep my rounds on target and under control there should be no issues.

[cchardwick]

Take a look at this bump firing, it looks like he has it shouldered and it looks like all his shots are within a pie plate or so. That's pretty darn good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfwFP_RwTQ&feature=related

I've seen people bump fire from the shoulder just like this video but without a rubber band, and their stance and rifle seem very stable. I'm not sure why people are condeming bump firing and then in the same paragraph approve a full auto class 3 weapon. Either one will draw the same amount of attention. I suggest getting a class 3 suppressor (silencer) before bump firing to keep the attention down. If you practiced enough and were really good you could keep your bump firing to three round bursts.

I agree that a round can't go off out of battery unless you have a defective rifle / firing pin.

Anyone who says there is no use for full auto fire hasn't been in combat with 10 guerrillas charging you at the same time (or 10 terrorists with swords).

:eek:

As far as a waste of ammo, if you cast your own bullets and reload you could probably reload 1000 rounds for around fifty bucks.

[Stagger Lee]

While you may think you're not risking your life, you're a danger to others around you with that sort of unsafe gun-handling. And if you doubt that, feel free to show up at any gun safety class or professional shooting school and start doing that kids stuff on their ranges. See how long that lasts.

What part of "responsibility and safety" do a few people here not understand?

Anyone who says there is no use for full auto fire hasn't been in combat with 10 guerrillas charging you at the same time (or 10 terrorists with swords).

I got money says you've never been there either. :rolleyes: But that's not the point. Even if you were actually in the military and not just banging away on the woods, "bump-firing" isn't tactical or even real full-auto...it's just horseplay of the sort that would have you thrown off of any supervised range in the country...including ranges that allow real machine guns.

[kayakersteve]

What part of "responsibility and safety" do a few people here not understand?


I own my land/range, so wont be getting thrown off there any time soon - I wouldn't attempt this at a public range any sooner than I would attempt drawing a loaded gun from my holster - Ranges must have laws and regulations for everyone's safety - These people seem to have control of the weapons and I dont see an issue in the environment they are doing it.
It does not appear unsafe or unresponsible to me!
It looks fun and I am going to try it.

I also shoot from my vehicle for practice, shoot prone, sitting and moving - Try that at your local Range

[NRAhab]

Take a look at this bump firing, it looks like he has it shouldered and it looks like all his shots are within a pie plate or so. That's pretty darn good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfwFP_RwTQ&feature=related

It's not "really" shouldered, there is a lot of space in between the butt and his shoulder which you can see in other videos. As to his accuracy, that target is about 10 yards away - I've been to the range where this video was made a whole bunch. He's also doing this with a 9mm AR, not a .223 or an Ak, which would have significantly more recoil than the 9mm.

Bump firing can be fun, certainly - but there are safety risks. If you're firing an actual rifle caliber, it's not too difficult for that rifle to get away from you in recoil, which then becomes dangerous to bystanders. Bumpfiring is usually banned at most public ranges, and for good reason, mostly because it's inherently unsafe.

[ziggy222]

actually i have a video of my neighbor bump firing his ar223 from the shoulder while aiming.at his dads farm.he did'nt do to bad.to expensive for my taste though

[Bones507]

Now after reading and seeing all this i got to try it with my 10/22, just once for the hell of it. :D
With the way ammo prices are now i wouldnt waste .223 rounds.

[cosmolinelover]

StaggerLee,

You're ruining a legitimate discussion about different bump firing techniques. Fine, you don't like it, you find it to be childish and 'gay'. Thats YOUR opinion. But why don't you let the rest of us discuss the pros and cons in a rational matter, rather than resorting to namecalling. We all already know the way you lean on things, and its always in the anti-freedom, pro-government direction. Thats FINE, but why don't you allow the rest of us to address the OP rather than just shooting down the entire thread.

To the OP:

Here's the 'rubber band' guys page. http://www.poormansmachinegun.com/
He seems to have figure out bump firing pretty well--and arguably shouldn't go to jail just because some people don't like rubber bands.

As far as bumping myself, I've had limited success doing it from the shoulder with my AK, the hip is a different story, but hitting anything is pretty much impossible (for me!).

There was a guy that put together something called the Akins accelerator that had some sort of spring in the stock to assist in bumping a 10/22, but I believe the ATF shut him down after giving him initial approval for the product. Without such an aid, I have a hard time seeing how any .22LR could be bumped successfully, but if you figure it out Bones please show us how!

[NRAhab]

The problem with the rubber band is that it's a "device" - and if the ATF ever sees that video, they're going to have some fun questions for Mr. Poor Man's Machine Gun.

[Csspecs]

The ATF knows of the rubber band technique, all it does is add the the trigger tension (like instead of a 3# trigger he has a 6# trigger).

I have a letter from them for a few questions, what the thought seems to be is if the shooter is causing the trigger to be pulled each and every time. The shoe lace and the akins accelerator both are examples of what is NOT allowed because only one action is required to cause multiple shots... If you have to pull the front of the gun to get each shot then it's not a machine gun.

[NRAhab]

Because the ATF is well known for sticking to their word and definitions of "device."

[Csspecs]

Really they said no using a device to bump fire..... Please post a link or the law in whole or part because a lot of people would be better off knowing that if it's a rule. (not saying your not right I just never read that law or ruling)

[Tamara]

I have a letter from them for a few questions, what the thought seems to be is if the shooter is causing the trigger to be pulled each and every time. The shoe lace and the akins accelerator...

Don't forget that the Akins people had a letter from the BATFEIEIO, too. A letter from them is barely worth the paper it's printed on. Speaking for myself, I've always felt that "When in doubt, don't," is the safest way to avoid getting cross-threaded with that august organization.

[Double Naught Spy]

I'm thinking about this claim that bump firing can lead to out of battery firing and I'm having trouble seeing the mechanism that leads to that outcome.

We did some testing with bumpfiring a 9mm Beretta Storm. We found we could fire strings of 10-20 rounds at rates ranging from 900-1200 rounds per minute. Since the Storm isn't a locked breech design, then the possibility exits for ending up with an out of battery detonation. There is no indication that the gun was designed for the parts to work appropriately at that speed...which is higher than most full auto guns are timed to run.

As for the notion that it is a waste of ammo, I have seen enough posts here to believe everyone wastes ammo. So it is just a matter of choosing how you want to do it.

In terms of accuracy (marksmanship control, actually), the poor man's machinegun youtube vid posted above is a bit unusual. I don't believe I have seen the same method being used with an unsilenced gun - the silenced helping moderate the recoil.

[cchardwick]

I think this is the shoestring trick. I believe that this is illegal. By the way, we are all walking around with an illegal machine gun, one on each foot LOLOL.

Shoe String Machine Gun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsPN7Iprfp0)

[jpwilly]

I've done this "bump fire" but never from the waist. I agree it looks weird. I'm not going to bash those who do unless it's unsafe to others. People drive performance cars too fast and crash them doesn't make every performace car driver a bad person or a bad driver.

Here's me (http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p38/jpwilly/?action=view&current=range020208006.flv)...flame suit on!

[Regular Joe]

My biggest problem with bump firing anything is that it's the sure fire quickest way to ruin a barrel. Barrel gets hot fast and expands. Gases flow around the bullet in the throat. Throat erosion happens very quickly, and then the gun is good for absolutely nothing but bump firing. Sheesh! When I was into shooting prairie dogs, I would bring 2 varmint rigs, and switch rifles every 20 rounds or so to prevent that. And these were bolt guns!

[kraigwy]

Bump Firing?????

Remember folks, you cant miss fast enough to win a gun fight.

[Csspecs]

Thats why some of us have bumpfire only guns... Thats about all Wasrs are good for :D

[jpwilly]

Regular Joe, Sorry but I completely disagree with you. Bump firing a mag or two through a Romanian "G" chrome lined AK barrel originally spec'd for full auto over time for tens of thousands of rounds isn't going to ruin the barrel. But yes it may ruin your precision rifle. Not an AK not a few mags worth.

[Dave Haven]

Remember folks, you cant miss fast enough to win a gun fight.One of the truest statements I've ever read!:D

[Regular Joe]

No-one has to agree with me. No-one shoots my guns but me:rolleyes: