Aftermath of a shooting (my story)

[divemedic]

In the summer of 1991, Virginia Beach, VA. I was involved in an incident in which shots were fired. I did not fire them, and witnesses misidentified me as the shooter. I am posting this story to illustrate what can and did happen.

I lived on the end of a dead end street near Newtown Road in Virginia Beach. MY neighbors had gotten clearance from the city to close off the street and have a block party. There was a lot of beer drinking and BBQ. I had been out at the movies with my (then) wife. I had NOT been drinking, nor had my wife. We arrived home at about 10:00 pm, and found some of the neighbors still partying. The wife stayed out to talk to the neighbors, but the BBQ was all gone, so I went in the house to make a sandwich.

When I came back outside, I found her and my next door neighbor having a loud argument with a man I had never seen before. I walked over in time to hear the man threaten to strike my wife. I walked over and asked what the problem was. The man told me that he was going to beat up this "***hole and his **** girlfriend." I said that I didn't know what the problem was, but that he should not refer to wife that way, and that he needed to leave. I told him that we had called the cops, and that if he left right away, I would forget what he looked like when the cops arrived.

He told me that if I didn't get out of the way, I was gonna get it too. That was when I noticed that he was holding a baseball bat. Seeing a weapon immediately changed my mindset. I drew my weapon (at the time I carried a S&W 4506) and ordered him to drop the bat. Still holding the bat, he turned around and walked away, and told me he was a part of "The Bayside Arms Posse" and that he was going to come back and show me whose town this was.

We called the cops. 15 minutes later, they arrived, and assured me that they would handle it by driving the area (Bayside Arms Apartments)where the gang hangs out. They left.

A few minutes later, there was a neighbor from a few doors down knocking at my back door. It seems there was 6 or 7 miscreants going door to door looking for me. As my wife again called the police, I grabbed my shotgun (870 Wingmaster with 19 inch barrel and an extended 8 round mag tube) and opened the door. I racked the shotgun, and immediately heard someone yell "They have guns, let's get out of here!" They jumped in a car with no license plate, and fled with their lights off. I did not see them very well.

When the police arrived (ten minutes later) they searched the neighborhood, and then they left, promising to make more frequent patrols. My neighbor came over, and we both agreed that the idiots would return. We hid in the street armed, hiding among the parked cars, waiting for them. As it turned out, we didn't have to wait long...

[divemedic]

Just after midnight, two cars full of people pulled down the street. The car closest to me had 4 teenagers in the car. It was later determined that the car closest to me contained one female and three males. They were all known gang members with lengthy arrest records for various offenses including drug offenses and weapons charges. One of them had been arrested 22 times before his 17th birthday.

I didn't know any of this. All I knew was that a car load of people who had threatened violence was 10 feet from me, and the front seat passenger had what appeared to be a long gun in his hand. (It turned out to be an SKS- at the time, one could be bought for $95) I ran to the car and stuck my shotgun into the window of the car. I said something along the lines of "If anyone moves, I will kill you."

I then heard a shot. I looked up in time to see the other car peeling away, and my neighbor lying on the ground. The car closest to me sped away. As they drove away, another neighbor (who HAD been drinking) ran out of his house and fired a shotgun at the car. (It was a 12 ga Mossberg 500 with a 3" magnum barrel) I dragged my downed neighbor into my house to find my wife on the floor of the kitchen, talking to the police.

It turns out that my neighbor dove when he saw a handgun, and was not hit when the shot was fired.

They arrived less than 5 minutes later, but it seemed much longer. We told them our story. While we were doing so, the car came back. This teens were all unarmed, and claimed that they were sitting at the light when I shot at them for no reason. They showed a pattern of holes in the driver's side door of their car.

I pointed out that the pellet count in their car was too high for my 2 3/4" shotgun, and that they could not have happened they way they said, as the bullet holes were in the wrong side of the car. The cops told me not to tell them how to do their job. I was photographed, and my guns taken. An SKS was found in the trunk of the teens' car, which the cops also took. more to follow...

[divemedic]

Three days later, I got a call from a detective with VA Beach police. He said that he had a warrant for my arrest, and that if I came in that afternoon, he would get me released on my own recognizance. He said if he had to look for me, the bond would be high, considering the charges. I was stunned. I drove to the police station, where I was arrested for brandishing, discharging a firearm within city limits, and aggravated battery.

I went to see the attorney that helped me get my CWL (he had been recommended by the NRA) and we went to the prosecutor's office and filed charges ourselves against the teens for aggravated battery (the cops refused to- they said that they had not seen them brandishing a weapon).

When we got to the court, it turned out that the tests on my shotgun did indeed show that my shotgun had not been fired, nor had any other weapon that the police had taken that night. There was no evidence of GSR on my hands. However, the witnesses (teens in the car) all testified that they had seen me shooting.

Then, the attorneys asked the judge if they could have a recess, and it was granted. My attorney talked to the others, and then came over to me and said that the other side had offered to drop the charges against me, if we agreed to drop our charges against them. We agreed, and so did they. It all went away. More to come...

[Alleykat]

I don't know what's coming next, but the best response, in my humble opinion, would have been to have killed all the teens while they were armed, when the opportunity arose. Wouldn't be too much discussion by the teens afterwards.

[divemedic]

(Alleykat- my thoughts exactly- the experience taught me that)

For weeks after that, gang members would sit outside of my house, watching us through binoculars. We called the cops daily. I still had no weapons, as mine had not yet been returned. They had plenty, I guess bought on the street. One day, my neighbor came over and told me he knew how to put a stop to the harassment.

He stood in my second floor bedroom, about 10 feet back from the window, looking back at the gangsters through the scope of his Remington 700. After a minute or two, the one with the binoculars did a double take, and they got in their car and left.

The harassment continued, and my wife did not want to stay home alone. We moved a few miles down the road.

Lessons learned:

- I should not have allowed the bat wielding teen to leave AND/OR
- Once I saw a weapon (the SKS) in the teen's hands in the car, I should have shot him. Letting either of them leave, taking with them the evidence to prove me correct, was a mistake.
- When the police arrive, keep quiet until you have an attorney there. There is not anything you can say that will help you that won't wait and help you after the attorney gets there. You can, however, say something stupid or make a minor mistake that will come back to haunt you.
- When the cops get there, they will likely take all of your guns, not just the ones they think were involved.
- Lawyer up. Don't try to handle things yourself. There is an old saying: "A good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge." I was amazed at how my attorney knew everyone, and at how he got things done that I couldn't. Well worth the money.

[divemedic]

Here is a link (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=20944609) to what I believe to be one of the members of that gang. (I googled the gang name, he was the first hit)

Here is another link (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bayside%2C+VA) about them.

Bad news.

[Samurai]

It is impossible to know, until we are placed in a similar situation, exactly how we would react to those circumstances.

...

That said, if I may make one suggestion for a "Lesson Learned": Don't EVER, EVER point a loaded gun at someone unless you are justified and WILLING to shoot and KILL them. If you ever DO point a loaded gun at someone, and you ARE justified, shoot and kill them, no questions asked.

Your legal trouble seems to have occurred when you "brandished" (pointed at someone) a loaded gun, without proper justification (i.e., you were in not in actual fear of imminent death or severe bodily injury, but rather, you were "lying in wait" with a loaded gun, stalking the gang-bangers). This was a bad decision, and one for which you should have learned an important lesson.

Pointing a loaded gun at someone is, legally, "use of deadly force." Don't do it unless you are justified in pulling the trigger, and if you can legally pull the trigger, then PULL IT.

[divemedic]

Interesting theory, but that requires one of two things:

Waiting until the weapon is actually pointed at you before taking action, or shooting an individual who stops taking aggressive action once they see that you are capable of meeting force with force.

In the above situation, that would have required me to either wait in my home, knowing that the shooters would return. This would have given a distinct advantage to the aggressors, and allowed them to attack at their own leisure, perhaps even after I was asleep..

Instead, I choose to meet them away from my home, in a situation where I chose, and allowed me to keep them away from my wife and kids. It also allowed me to retain a tactical advantage, which I needed all I could get. The police were (judging by their previous response times) 10 minutes away. If I had allowed 6-8 attackers to get out of their cars, what would my tactical situation be in taking on 6-8 attackers, as opposed to taking on two car loads before they could exit their vehicles, and separate?

Since I made that choice, the only option left to me was to shoot a person who ceased his attack as soon as I pointed a weapon at him. Would you suggest that I shoot a person who drops his weapon as soon as I point my gun at him?

Difficult tactical AND legal situation. I maintain that if I had shot the bat-boy, the situation would have been over at that point.

[Mikeyboy]

Unfortunately I have to agree with some of the other post. Owning a firearm is a great responsibility and your fighting criminal teens with immaturity. If someone comes into your neighborhood trying to act like a tough guy with a bat, you call the cops. You don't stand around and arge with him, or say you will not turn him in to the cops if he leaves. If he swings or threatens to kill you with the bat, you shoot him dead. If a gang of teens are knocking door to door lookijng for you, you don't go outside with a shotgun looking for them, you call the cops, if they approch you on your property and threaten you with guns, you kill them. It is that simple.

Still gangs are a PITA and I'm sorry that you were forced to move because of them.

[azredhawk44]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, divemedic.

I'm glad to hear that it all sounds sorted out finally though. Very hairy, very frightening and unpleasant regardless of the outcome. Good story to read and absorb opinions from though.

Do you think the gang is done with you at this point?

[Odd Job]

Yep, it is easy to be an armchair general afterwards: who knows what I would have done in the same situation.
I don't know, I really don't. And that's because I can't get the atmosphere, the nuances, the 'flavour' of the thing without being there.

I can say (in the comfort of my chair, with no threat around and no wife and no dependents), that I suspect I would have waited inside the house and not gone outside (the time they came back in the car).

These little arse-hats in their gangs are nothing but vermin in my opinion. They should make it legal to exterminate them.

By the way, divemedic, one thing that is quite useful if you have a vehicle or a group hanging around in the street and you want to get rid of them, is a match-box bomb. I don't know if you have tried those before, but I have found that they are quite good. I suppose you could call it a home-made firework. You throw it, it bounces off the road and usually explodes 1 or 2 metres off the ground.
Not sure on the legality of it (the components are matches, matchboxes and tape).

[Selfdfenz]

divemedic

Not sure what your situation is now and 1991 is long ago but that neighborhood sounds like a great place to be from......preferably far away.

S-

[Duncan223]

amazing story and some wisdom to be gleaned... thanks for sharing your story

[divemedic]

At the time I moved in, it was not that bad, and I was stationed in Norfolk, at the NOB base 10 miles away. As a married E-5 with 2 kids, it was difficult to afford better. The neighborhood has gotten MUCH worse in the 17 years that have passed since I left.

Offering to forget him for the cops if he left was my attempt (unsuccessful) to defuse the situation without using a weapon.

As far as the above posters who suggested that I call the police, I did. Three times. Ten minute plus response times each time.

Try an experiment. If you have friends who own paintball guns, airsoft, water guns, something similar, get 6 of them to try and attack you and two dolls, simulating your kids in your home (you can simulate them kicking in doors, etc) See what they can do to you and your simulated family in 10 minutes. I can tell you that I learned from this experience that 10 minutes is forever.

Something else that I discovered:
Sitting at home in front of the computer, it is easy to make the decision to pull the trigger. I learned by experience that a host of thoughts goes through your head.
- Adrenaline and fear
- the thought that you are the only one between them and your family
- The worry about pulling the trigger and what it will do to your life. Not only the hesitation at taking a life, but the hesitation at whether or not it is going to be a "good shoot" and going to jail.
- I reran the situation in my mind and in my nightmares for months afterwards. You will too, if you are unlucky enough to be in the same place.
- One of my neighbors told me that I should have "shot the gun out of his hand." Think that is stupid? Remember, people like that are going to be your jury. The prosecution will see to it that no gunnies are on the jury, thanks to voir dire.

In the end, here is what I decided:
I didn't go to jail. I didn't get sued. Judgments in Virginia can be good for as long as 20 years. I could still be paying them. I was not hurt, my neighbors were not hurt, and my family wasn't hurt. Sure, the "bad guy" got away, but so what? My mission is to protect me and mine, not save the world.

All in all, I don't see how the situation could have turned out much better.

[FrontSight]

So, what happened to your neighbor who actually did shoot? And why did you edit out the part about waiting in the bushes for them?

[Alleykat]

I guess there really is a place in civilized society for hand grenades! Only solution for gangsters is destruction.

[divemedic]

Nothing happened to the neighbor who fired the shot. The cops never even took his name, picture, or weapon.

I didn't edit out the part where we waited for them. It is in my first post. Read:

We hid in the street armed, hiding among the parked cars, waiting for them.

[B. Lahey]

Sounds like it worked out well to me. A dangerous situation but nobody was seriously injured or killed, and the good guys stayed out of jail. That's about the best ending that you can tack onto a situation like this. All of us probably would have reacted differently in one way or another, but you can't argue with the results. Thanks for telling us about it, I'm sure it was stressful as hell.

[obxned]

This situation is crazy, but not surprising. Virginia Beach police are famous for treating legally armed citizens like criminals and criminals like fine citizens. It is little wonder that gangs of sub-humans think they can get away with anything the want.

I don't have any idea how to make Virginia Beach a safe or sane place to live. If I lived there, I would move. Leave the whole town to the goblins, and when it becomes bad enough to sink the tourist business, maybe then something will be done.

[hkg3]

Amazing. Thank you for sharing.

[BoringAccountant]

Great story...glad to see it turned out the best way for you and your family.

Three questions...

First, next time you break up a story so suspenseful like that, let me know so I don't start reading it at work and then have to finish when I got home. J/K :D

Second, how long after the incident did you receive your guns back?

Oh and did the Don't Talk to the Police thread cause you to inform us of your story?

[Al Norris]

divemedic, while I understand your thread is in response to the Don't Talk To The Police! (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297893) thread, it's actually more in line with Tactics and Training.

We're moving there, but I'll leave a redirection link for a couple of days, so everyone who wants, can find and read.

ETA: Yeah... What happened with your firearms?

[threegun]

I maintain that if I had shot the bat-boy, the situation would have been over at that point.


You would have had just as much trouble if not more from the rest of the gang had you killed a member. From what I hear they always try to avenge a shooting of one of their own. Your home would have been riddled with 762x39 in a drive by at the least.

The best thing you did was to move. Protecting yourself and family from people who want to kill you is nearly impossible. You can't protect 24/7 with work and sleep. They have many members and all the time in the world.

Great read thanks.

[Keltyke]

To be legally entitled to shoot, you must feel you are in IMMINENT danger of loss of life or grave bodily injury.

There are three criteria to be filled for this to be true.

The attacker must have:
1. Ability - Is he physically and mentally capable of carrying out his stated or assumed actions?
2. Opportunity - Is he close enough to carry out his stated or assumed actions?
3. Intent - Is he advancing in a threatening manner?

If all three of these are satisfied, shoot. Shoot until the threat is negated, then shop shooting.

For example: Man 30 feet away, advancing with a raised baseball bat in hand.
Draw your weapon. Aim. "Stop or I'll shoot!"
If the individual stops or turns back, reholster your weapon. Continue to observe.
If he continues to advance, shoot until he stops advancing.

For example: Man standing still 30 feet away with a baseball held down by his leg - NOT an imminent threat. In this case, you may not be legal to even draw your weapon. In some states, drawing your weapon is "use of deadly force". It can also be "brandishing" and/or a "menacing threat" or "assault".

[Samurai]

divemedic,

I'm not saying that what you did (hiding in the street, armed, waiting on the gang-bangers to return) wasn't "tactically" smart. I'm simply saying that it was illegal. In this country, it is illegal to "lay in wait" for someone. And, by hiding in the cars on the street, armed, intent on shooting at the gang-bangers if they returned to shoot at you, you broke the law.

The old-world legal theory behind the "lay in wait" prohibition is that you should not go looking for a fight. If you know trouble is coming, you're supposed to leave the area, if you can, and alert the authorities.

I understand, it's your home, and you shouldn't have to leave. But, by going out into the street, armed, and hiding and waiting for the guys to come back, you went looking for trouble. And, when trouble came, you ran up to them and pointed a gun at them. In other words, you ran up to a parked car so that you could use deadly force against a car full of people. Although you may have feared that the people in the car might have "eventually" opened fire on you, resulting in "eventual" harm, you clearly were not in fear of "imminent" death or serious bodily injury, or you would have either run away, or shot them. Because you believed you could "take them alive," and you tried to do so, you were unjustified in doing what you did.

Sorry, that's just the facts. Having a CCL doesn't give you an outright license to "enforce" the law. It only gives you the right to shoot people who are presently trying to shoot you.

[gvf]

We hid in the street armed, hiding among the parked cars, waiting for them.

Would you have done this if you had no gun? Just your hands? Likely not, you wouldn't have wanted to put yourself in so much danger to start with by leaving your house.

Well, just because you have a tool - a gun - that can also be used offensively, doesn't change the requirements of SD : the action must be defensive. Forget the tool.

De-coupling guns from SD Law is necessary or the use of the particular tool we can carry -- its easy offensive as well as defensive capabilities and its association with police usage -- can distort the meaning of the law and who we are.

SD Law does not refer to guns. It's not for you as a CCW - its for anyone and everyone.

------------------------

SD Law and Guns do not exist together legally - and are not connected in law. You have only one allowance with a CCW: to carry a lethal weapon with a waiver from the usual Gun Law prohibiting that. Nothing else, no power, no rights, that are different from anyone else's.

CCW law does not refer to shooting people. SD Law does not refer to shooting people. SD Law's origins lie in the Middle Ages, centuries before common use of guns.

SD Law refers to the weird, unusual, once-in-many-life-times fluke emergency situation of an innocent victim, walking along in life, who suddenly finds they are about to be killed NOW and uses force that could result in lethality as a Last Possible Act to save their or another's life.

Everyone has the right. And no one has it for any other situation or for any internal mind-states they may have: personal angers, biases, righteous rages, opinions on crime or people's dress or the 2nd Amendment, nor feeling scared, happy, sad, manly, insulted - or anything else.

[bennadatto]

DiveMedic...I truly hate that you had to go through that situation. It seems that our justice system is set up in such a way that honest citizens must allow the safety of their families and themselves to be pushed to the edge of endangerment to accommodate the "rights" of law-breakers. Shame on society for allowing this to happen.

As for your handling the situation, your objective was to ensure the safety of your family and yourself...mission accomplished, good job.

[Pilot]

Hard to Monday morning quaterback, but as others have said leaving the house with a shotgun and lieing in wait for them was the wrong move. It put you in danger and invites criminal charges which is exactly what happened to you. If you had stayed in the house and they tried to gain entry, different story entirely.

[True Texan]

Divemedic,

Thanks for an extremely informative read. Truly terrifying:eek:.


I am curious; if the PD take away all your guns (I thought that they could only take the weapon used); can you demand 24/7 police protection? If they take away your method of protection they are, effectively, placing you at the mercy of your enemies. What kind of solutions to this are there?

[simonkenton]

The guy in the My Space account is 21 years old.
He was 4 years old when this happened.

[Samurai]

Oh, yes. +1 on the threads above: I do NOT mean to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, or to second-guess how divemedic handled this. There is no way of knowing how we might react to similar circumstances.

I meant only to offer an explanation as to why the courts and the cops might have decided to arrest divemedic after the incident...

But, all that aside. Divemedic, you survived. You came home that night. Good for you.

[Flippinstk]

Quote:
We hid in the street armed, hiding among the parked cars, waiting for them.

Quote:
Hard to Monday morning quaterback, but as others have said leaving the house with a shotgun and lieing in wait for them was the wrong move. It put you in danger and invites criminal charges which is exactly what happened to you. If you had stayed in the house and they tried to gain entry, different story entirely.

WOW.... I really gotto go along with Pilot on what he said... You hid in the street???? These are the kindof stories that give us a bad name.

[gvf]

: I do NOT mean to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, or to second-guess how divemedic handled this.

I second that altho my earlier post was negative on the legal aspects.

But before others pile on the law: thinking it inhibits us, it's purpose is precisely due to the confusion and anger that visits anyone in such situations.
It's SUPPOSED to inhibit life and death choices only made on those feelings.
So, it's to demand an objective eye, and that demand ultimately protects many people - including us - who could otherwise be killed because of someone's mistake, due to their anger, fear or whatever.


Second, the tests for valid SD SHOULD be extremely stringent: in a split second judgment on which lives depend: we could be wrong, killing an innocent person - we could even err in fact but have a legitimate case that it was reasonable to believe otherwise. Still, an innocent person is dead.

This is not the kind of situation - human life dependent on split-second decisions- that should be loosely treated by law.

[B.N.Real]

divemedic-the amazing part of your story is that you and your neighbors worked together to protect your family and property.

I take issue with the "I should have shot the teen with the ak part,though"

You and your neighbors showed amazing restraint in dealing with these criminals.

Make no mistake,it reads to me like these kids were not out to 'have a little fun'.they were out to kill you to send a message that they owned your neighborhood.

Had you killed that teen,the media would have undoubtedly branded you a wanton murderer and pumped out all kinds of excuses why a kid had an ak in the car that night.

You would have been jailed and also have been sued in a civil court if not assessed guilty in a criminal court for second degree if not first degree murder.

Your true story is a humbling tale of respondsible people acting respondsibly in the face of criminals that knew they have a decided advantage(being teens) with the law.

The only way to deal with these kinds of criminals is how you did it.

And,these days it never hurts for your own protection to have a video camera with a good microphone to record what happened as it happened and don't give your only copy to the police.

Amazing story and so glad to read that nobody had to die to end the threat.

[Chui]

Thanks for sharing. I, too, despise gangs. It looks like it's a multi-racial gang which for some reason makes me feel even more uneasy. Why? They "disarm" your sense of what a gang is (i.e., same race, usually).

At any rate, what you did violated the current laws in this nation. I'd not convict you if you shot hobgoblin 1, 2, 3 or 4 but that's just me. They don't have sh1t to lose and you've got everything to lose. Yep, we can critique your actions sitting in "Ann Arbor, Michigan" or "Ashville, North Carolina" but you were THERE and I empathize with you.

Now, the "police officers" weren't worth their weight in grass clippings. They were liars. I probably would not have dropped the charges but we all have financial limitations.

Good to see you made it through.

[divemedic]

I did eventually get my guns back. I still own the 870, I can't ever seem to get rid of it. I honestly think that shotgun saved my life that night.

While my actions may or may not have been illegal, I did what I did in the interest of protecting my family. It does no good to say I was not breaking the law when some gang banger shoots through the windows of my house and kills my wife or kids. The shotgun portion of the incident had nothing to do with CCW. I was not carrying concealed at the time.

We spend a lot of time on firearm boards talking about shootings- real and hypothetical. The truth is, the vast majority of self defense shootings are not so cut and dried as to be obvious "good" or "bad" shootings.

All bluster aside, I feel like I did what anyone would do- when threatened, I drew my weapon and called the cops. The cops did nothing. The gang came looking to kill me, in greater numbers this time. Again, I called the cops and the cops did nothing. When they returned a third time in even greater numbers, I was waiting for them. The alternative (the way I saw it) was to wait for them inside my home until they eventually came in great enough numbers to succeed in killing me and my family.

Regardless of what you think of my actions that night, I would invite everyone to think about what you would do in such a situation. Leave your home? and go where? Wait inside for them, and thereby give the tactical advantage to the shooters, while hoping that the 10 minute response time of the cops is good enough? Something else? For those that suggest I should have run away, do you mean that I should have left my home that night? Or do you mean that when they pulled up, rifles in hand, that I should have tried to run from men in vehicles, armed with long guns, while my wife and I tried to carry a 14 month old and a two year old child?

It is easy to talk about the law and what makes gun owners look bad, but when there are critters in front of you with guns who outnumber you by a 4 to 1 margin, and they are looking to kill you and your family, those arguments become academic. These incidents are a good example of the real world, and not some "what if" scenario where everyone knows what is right. There are ALWAYS shades of gray, and this is what we need to think about and plan for.

I knew the myspace page that I linked to was not one of the actual people there. I googled the gang name, and that page was the first hit. I used that page to illustrate that the people involved were nasty characters who mean business, not just some wannabes that run their mouths. The threat was very real.

Edited to add- I am not some Rambo wanna be that was waiting for a fight. If I had been, I would have pulled the trigger when I got the chance. My attorney even told me that I had showed more restraint than many LEOs would have. After the cops blew me off three times, I knew I was on my own.

[chris in va]

I look at it this way. If there was no 'law', ie cops/lawyers, lots of this armchair quarterbacking would get thrown out the window.

You did what you had to do to protect yourself and your family in the absence of LEO's. Bottom line.

[skydiver3346]

You know, I just read each and everyone of the responses to Divemedic's harrowing account. There were some pretty good responses and everyone gave us something to consider.

But, when you really look at this situation, none of us was there, only he was. Secondly, what would you really do if this actually happened to you personally? Your wife and/or kids are there on the street or in the house (depending on you to protect them 24/7)... Sounds like a really bad ass gang of dirt bags he was dealing with who kept coming back and back again. They called the police but obviously not much was really done about it. The proof was the gang kept returning to harass them, etc. What would each of you really do if this happened to you and your wife is scared as hell, etc.

Its easy to say just why don't you just move to another neighborhood or do this or that, etc., but until it actually happened to you, most of us just don't know EXACTLY what they would do. I sure as hell don't know for sure? I am thinking that I might do this, (I would have shot the first guy with a weapon who was a threat to myself and family). A bat is a horrilbe weapon to be struck with and could lead to permanent damage and/or death. This is Divemedic's front street, his neighborhood for Christ's sake! Don't we the citizens have any rights anymore? Do the gangs rule and we just have to take whatever they dish out. I'm sorry, but honor is something and we need to appreciate his stance. Yes, it was dangerous and could have had disasterous results, but you got to admire his standing up for his rights and protecting his family and neighbors.

Anyway, definitely gives us food for thought doesn't it? I know that it will get me to thinking about what I am going to do (ahead of time) if this or something similar was to happen to me and my family.
Thanks for lettting me vent. Good luck to everyone and I sure hope you never have to endure anything like this.

[gvf]

Wait inside for them, and thereby give the tactical advantage to the shooters, while hoping that the 10 minute response time of the cops is good enough?

You can't take SD lethal actions based on suppositions. They weren't at your home - I think you said at that time they weren't even on the street - and yes, you should have called the cops. What would happen next? I don't know - no one does. You precluded all safe conclusions by choosing to act on what COULD have been the fatal one - including that the police had come very quickly and that the car would have kept on driving.

The problem isn't the human reaction you had - I might too do the same thing, anyone might. The problem is it's not based in what the law is and what would protect others in similar situations from you acting on suppositions - and you think because it was right it was OK. Anyone can think anything is right and frequently do. You can't kill people based on that - or anything but the reality of what is transpiring NOW. Otherwise we all can be dead.

[gvf]

Wait inside for them, and thereby give the tactical advantage to the shooters, while hoping that the 10 minute response time of the cops is good enough?

You can't take SD lethal actions based on suppositions. They weren't at your home - I think you said at that time they weren't even on the street - and yes, you should have called the cops. What would happen next? I don't know - no one does. You precluded all safe conclusions by choosing to act on what COULD have been the fatal one - including that the police had come very quickly and that the car would have kept on driving.

The problem isn't the human reaction you had - I might too do the same thing, anyone might. The problem is it's not based in what the law is and what would protect others in similar situations from you acting on suppositions - and you think because it was right it was OK. Anyone can think anything is right and frequently do. You can't kill people based on that - or anything but the reality of what is transpiring NOW. Otherwise we all can be dead from all the people who are "right".

[Keltyke]

Wait inside for them, and thereby give the tactical advantage to the shooters, while hoping that the 10 minute response time of the cops is good enough?

If you wait inside, the tactical advantage is yours. They don't know where you are or what you're armed with.

If several calls ar made to 911, saying, "Man with a gun." Or, "Shots fired." Will bring every cop in 5 miles running Code 3 to get there.

Usually you canNOT "lay in wait." That makes it premeditated and/or "trap setting". As a CWP holder, you may NOT advance or attack. Your duty to the law is to DEFEND and, if possible, retreat to a safe place. Now, in SC, there is no "obligation to retreat". You may stand your ground. You also have no obligation to retreat from the boundaries of your property, which include whatever vehicle you're riding in at the time.

All that being said, it's easy to second guess the poster's actions while sitting calmly in an armchair. All you can do in the field is make the best decision you can at the time, with the information you have at the time.

[divemedic]

This is an interesting exercise. I am going to give you more information, and let's look at my tactical situation. Go to google maps. If you search for

848 Broad Meadows Blvd
Virginia Beach, VA

You will see that the address is on the corner of Broad Meadows and Newtown Road. A box comes up that allows you to click on "Street View." Click that, and click "Satellite" and you will see the neighborhood. On the street view, my house was the one directly in front of the silver Chrysler. My neighbor lived in the house with the open door. The place looks so much like I remember it, it is stunning. Little has changed.

The street view pic is amazing. That picture gives you a view of the area from roughly the spot where the car load of gang bangers was parked. I was hiding in roughly the spot between where the red Ford and the Silver Chrysler are in the picture.

According to google earth's ruler, it is 35 feet from your vantage point to my front door.

You can see there wasn't much room to keep them at arm's length.

[Selfdfenz]

Divemedic shared his experience and perspective on what I think we can all agree was a very distressing situation for him, his family and some members of his neighborhood. What I or you or anyone else think [yep,think] we would have done under identical circumstances is speculation and that’s all it will ever be. The after action critique isn't adding anything positive.
Why can’t we just leave it at kudos to him for sharing and be glad no one was injured or killed.
Best,
S-

[Creature]

I live in this neck of the woods...and things are no better now, if not worse, than they were then. In fact, gang sign is everywhere here you look here in Virginia Beach. The evening local news is not complete without at least two or three reported shootings here in Virginia Beach and in the rest of the Hampton Roads region. I cant wait to get orders out of here.:(

Glad you made it out okay, dm.

[Keltyke]

The after action critique isn't adding anything positive.

Actually, it is. By analyzing a person's actions, we can possibly improve on those actions the next time it happens.

For the person to continue with the only knowledge they had at the time is handcuffing him to those same actions - right or wrong.

Discussion generates alternate actions which are possibly better than the ones taken.

We always strive to improve, and we can always learn from others.

[BoilerUP]

Thank you for sharing your experience...regardless of the hindsight legality of events I'm glad nobody (you, your family, or the perps) were hurt in this incident.

No telling how many lives have been spared by the sound of an 870 slide!

Here's to hoping NONE of us are faced with these decisions...

[Tennessee Gentleman]

divemedic,

Glad you didn't shoot one of those guys. Had you done so you would most probably be in prison now or just getting out. When you left your house and "lay in wait" you cancelled out pretty much any self defense claim. Call the cops, put your family in a covered place and wait for the cavalry. Had I been on a jury that tried you for murder I would have found you guilty and locked you away. You were every lucky.

[Keltyke]

All bluster aside, I feel like I did what anyone would do- when threatened, I drew my weapon and called the cops. The cops did nothing. The gang came looking to kill me, in greater numbers this time. Again, I called the cops and the cops did nothing.

You definitely need to move, dude!

[divemedic]

Glad you didn't shoot one of those guys. Had you done so you would most probably be in prison now or just getting out. When you left your house and "lay in wait" you cancelled out pretty much any self defense claim. Call the cops, put your family in a covered place and wait for the cavalry. Had I been on a jury that tried you for murder I would have found you guilty and locked you away. You were every lucky.

That, IMO, is where our laws are seriously wrong.

1 Gangbangers out on the street after 22 arrests by their 17th birthday.
2 Underage illegally carrying weapons
3 Attack a citizen in his own front yard, not one, but three times- police do nothing (must be busy writing speeding tickets)
4 Citizen defends himself IN HIS OWN FRONT YARD FROM ARMED CRIMINAL has to worry about going to prison
5 Gangstas think prison is a joke, for them prison is a revolving door vacation
6 Other gun owners support this kind of thinking

Am I the only one who sees the problem here?

Edited to add:

This is why I love living in Florida:

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

(3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury of the person, or the person's child, sibling, spouse, parent, or dependent, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

[Creature]

Using the address you provided above, I can see how exposed you could be by viewing your old house using the "street view" in Google Maps. I panned around and that is not a good place to find cover if there werent any cars in the area for the Block Party to take place.

[Hook686]

I understand your fear. My immediate thought to your explainations, including legal codes, is:

1) Do gangbangers have the right to self defense ?
2) Do gangbangers have the right to walk, or travel, on public property ?
3) Is sitting in wait, with a loaded weapon, essentially an 'Ambush' ?

If I conclude that a person has the behavior pattern of sitting in ambush with a loaded weapon, is then okay for me to speculate that this poses a very real threat to myself and my family ? If I do conclude this, is it then okay for me to take you out before you can execute your ambush ?

[divemedic]

1) not when committing a felony.
2) not when committing a felony.
3) not when a party is attempting to kill you. There is no difference between waiting for a party in your yard than there is in waiting for them in your living room. If I were sitting in my yard with just my pistol, would that still be an ambush? Does the self defense law say that I only have the right to self defense with certain weapons?

Again:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

1 Gangbangers out on the street after 22 arrests by their 17th birthday.
2 Underage illegally carrying weapons
3 Attack a citizen in his own front yard, not one, but three times- police do nothing (must be busy writing speeding tickets)
4 Citizen defends himself IN HIS OWN FRONT YARD FROM ARMED CRIMINAL has to worry about going to prison
5 Gangstas think prison is a joke, for them prison is a revolving door vacation
6 Other gun owners support this kind of thinking

Not my intent to justify the results of our judicial system. Although, I have not seen a better one and I have travelled and lived all over the world.

Many of the points you made above you did not know at the time so it wouldn't have helped your case. Anyway, based on your story you weren't on your own property but in the street. I think even in Florida you would have been sent to prison if you had opened up on those men in your ambush. I think there are some other posts here are worth reading like gvf and keltyke.

Also, if you had killed one or more of them then the gang really would have wanted your blood and you know if somebody wants you dead they will probably get you. What they did later on was just mess with you. Had you killed some of their own then they would have had to "save face" and kill you.

All this because of a guy who yelled and cussed at your wife?:barf: Much better to descalate the situation and leave.

Again, I say you were lucky and if the lesson you learned was that you should have killed any of those gangsters rather than not then you learned a bad lesson and might have to pay for it one day. I hope not.

[divemedic]

I still think I was correct. Those here that feel I was wrong, too bad. I lived, my family lived, and anyone who wasn't there, and more importantly sits in his living room planning "what if" scenarios cannot say what they would have done.

As to whether or not what I did was legal, I point out the fact that I was taken to court, and won. 'nuff said. I'm outta this one.

[skydiver3346]

Well,
I have never seen so many varied opinions in all my life. Divemedic told his story and even though none of you was there but him, (years ago) we all give want to give him advice as to "what WE would do", if that happened to us..............

He did what he thought was best and thats it. Maybe it was stupid to some of you (maybe not) but when you get right down to it, that was his call, period!
I'm getting sick and tired of seeing and reading about all these these scum bags running the country. A bad guy can do what he wants and gets away with it. We can't, because we don't want to be incarcerated and have a record. They don't give a rat's ass about a criminal record or being in prison, (obviously). It is time to stand up and tell them enough is enough.
Have you looked around lately, the bad guys are running the country, the courts, etc. Their liberal lawyer's opinions are the law of the land.
Political Corectness is the order of the day. Man, I really am sick of all this crap. It is time to stand up for your rights and do what you think is best for YOUR situation. When and if it happens to you or your family, to hell with what other folks tell you what is "right". Do what is right for you and forget about the court of public opinon............
Yeah, some of you think I may be a little too out of line here, etc. That's okay, I know what I feel is right for me. That's all that counts, when you get right down to it...................

[Hook686]

If you don't like the bad guys running the country, want tougher prison times, more prosecution ... I suggest you elect representatives that advocate that and vote for spending money, increasing taxes, to pay for it, or stop wasting money in Iraq and start providing that money for our infastructure.

It takes time and money to secure our streets. Are you willing to pay for it ?

[Odd Job]

There seems to be a bit of conflict in this thread, and I am going to give you all my 2 South African cents on the matter.

Some time ago, I posted a thread here about a Johannesburg mall/shopping centre incident in which I discharged a firearm during a sequence of events that resulted in the capture of a thief who had also beaten up one security guard and (as far as I could tell at the time) mortally stabbed another one.

The thread is here if you want to read it:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222887

There are some similarities between what happened there and what happened with divemedic:

1) I never asked to be in that position, but I felt compelled to do something. Unfortunately, because I had not been in that situation before, I had to do things according to my best perception of the situation and the circumstances at hand.
2) That perception and those circumstances can never be fully replicated or described, to the point where you as the reader can confidently say what you would have done in those circumstances. It just isn't going to happen, because you weren't there.


However, when discussing the legalities and tactics of the situation objectively and taking into account only the facts, it is possible for us to have a debate here and arrive at a reasonable conclusion with regards to whether the person (divemedic or me) made any mistakes or put himself or another at greater risk because of his actions. This is all done retrospectively, in the comfort of our armchairs of course.

Nonetheless, as regards my situation in the shop, I accept that I could have handled that better, based on suggestions by TFL members who posted in that thread. There is a chance (not a certainty) that if I am in a similar situation sometime in the future, I will heed that advice and modify my response appropriately. Much will depend on the new circumstances, obviously.

As far as divemedic is concerned, I don't think he should have waited outside the house. I think he did it because that was the best approach he could think of at the time. That was the solution that looked the most viable in those circumstances.

However, in my opinion it will be better (should a similar situation occur again) if divemedic does not come out of the house. There have been clear and rational reasons why it is better not to come out of the house.

Similarly, in my situation, there have been clear and rational reasons why I shouldn't have fired a warning shot and chased an armed thief down a few city blocks. After the stabbing I should have closed the distance and fired COM.
And that's what I should do if it happens again. But it all depends whether I recognise the similarities of the situation and decide to apply the lessons I have learned to minimise risk to myself and others.

[Keltyke]

When and if it happens to you or your family, to hell with what other folks tell you what is "right". Do what is right for you and forget about the court of public opinon............

No, the only court you'll need to worry about are the criminal/civil ones you will stand in trying to explain why what you did was right. If you don't convince the judge and jury you were "right", you might end up going away from that precious family for a while.

Breaking the law doesn't solve breaking the law.

[skydiver3346]

"It is better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6:............

I agree with that for sure, good advice. By the way, since when is defending yourself and/or family considered breaking the law? If that is the case, we are all in deep doo doo.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Those here that feel I was wrong, too bad. I lived, my family lived, and anyone who wasn't there, and more importantly sits in his living room planning "what if" scenarios cannot say what they would have done.

As to whether or not what I did was legal, I point out the fact that I was taken to court, and won. 'nuff said.

The shame of it is, if you had stayed in the house, called the cops and waited for them your family would still be alive and you wouldn't have had to go to court.
Also, this "armchair quarterbacking" charge is incorrect. Many of us including myself have been in situations where if we had chosen to could have escalated them into something bad. Get the emphasis on chosen! As long as I have a choice and divemedic did, I am going away from the problem. That is not just smart but morally correct IMHO. Choosing to "stand your ground" when you could easily and safely leave but rather choose to get into a confrontation where a person may be killed is both wrong and may get you put in prison. Lots of good advice from folks here. Do what you wish but you can't say you weren't warned when you are sitting in court.

[skydiver3346]

You make a good point Tennesee Gentleman,
However, didn't divemedica say: "that one of the bad guys sitting outside his house in a car had a SKS assault rifle? That could easily wound or kill someone "hiding in the house" if they fired it at the home.
I don't have all the answers, aren't we just getting sick and tired of dirt bags like that getting away with anything they want to do (and we just have to take it)????
Guess I am just fed up with it. I read everyday in the paper about things like this and nothing ever gets done. We need to elect people who care about the law abiding citizen far more than the bad guys...........
My last comment on this situation folks and thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

[gvf]

Guess I am just fed up with it. I read everyday in the paper about things like this and nothing ever gets done. We need to elect people who care about the law abiding citizen far more than the bad guys...........
My last comment on this situation folks and thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

The violent crime rate is at historic lows these last few years, and cops are doing much in many areas to curb violence further. Gang violence in my area and all violent crime is down 14% this year. New York City, another area I'm very familiar with, has 45000 cops, and is now safer than almost all urban areas in the country with a population of over 100,000. It is the safest of all major cities in the US, and ranks somewhere near San Jose, California as far as violent crime. Look at data on violent crime over periods back to the 19th century, and the numbers continually decrease in their general direction, markedly decrease.

The remarks about crime like the above quoted produce a predispostion towards BIG mistakes in SD situations.

We had a case in my area of new CCW who got into a road-argument with a minority in mid-afternoon at a mall - shouting etc. Both were about to park and had stopped or slowed to a crawl. The minority got our of his car and walked towards the CCWs car, both arguing. CCW pulled his gun and shot the "threat", killed him.

There was no "threat", just an argument, no weapon displayed by the victim or possessed by the victim, whose pregnant wife watched from their car as her husband - a professional man - was killed in a routine shopping trip to the mall over a parking-space.

CCW is in prison. But 4 lives - probably more - are destroyed, and one literally. This was an act caused by stero-type, of all kinds: of people, of crime, etc., and its consequent irrational fear and altered judgment.

Better get the facts right. And act on only those: what is really happening NOW. Forget all the bias and predisposition, all the opinions, societal judgments, all the political, self-righteous, victimhood claptrap.

[#20fan]

Taken from the Lectric law library


LYING IN WAIT - Being in ambush for the purpose of murdering or harming another. A waiting and watching for an opportune time to act, together with a concealment by ambush or some other secret design to take the other person by surprise. The lying in wait need not continue for any particular period of time provided that its duration is such as to show a state of mind equivalent to premeditation or deliberation.

Lying in wait is evidence of deliberation, malice and intention and so is often used as a special circumstance to enhance sentencing in criminal cases.

Pretty much says it.
That said I am very glad to hear that you and your family are none the worse for wear. I know from personal experiance that shootings can take a very long time to get over if ever.
No one died, it was a good ending, Period.

[Keltyke]

By the way, since when is defending yourself and/or family considered breaking the law?

You certainly MAY defend yourself and family, but you must do it within the law. There are times the law allows you to shoot and times it doesn't. Of course, you CAN step outside the law, but if you do, you open yourself to the same legal process your assailants will undergo. You and your family may be separated for a while, and/or incur total financial ruin. As RESPONSIBLE gun-carrying/using citizens, we walk a fine line.

Defend, yes, but do it legally.

[Teppo Sensei]

it sounds likes you were looking for a fight
in virginia open carry is legal

when you said they took all your guns makes me want to hide some of mine
a pistol in a ziplock bag in the AC vent
inside of fridge or freezer if you dont have kids

[Apple a Day]

1) The local cops are known for being PITAs. I've had a couple of runins. Some are good guys but a lot of them are real jerks.
2) All of us who live here know the situation hasn't improved. Every day there are a couple of stories of thugs shooting each other. The area in Va Beach and lower Newport News is in serious decline.
3) You came away unharmed and your family is unharmed. You accomplished your objectives.

Could it have been done better? Probably. Nobody's perfect. Could you have avoided a lot of grief by walking your wife out of the original argument and sat comfortably in your home with a gun and phone? Probably. Was sitting in ambush with your drunk neighbor who got you in trouble by shooting at a retreating vehicle not the best idea - the drunk neighbor with the ND part, I mean - ? Probably. I object more to the drunk neighbor with a gun shooting at a retreating vehicle more than the ambush. If he hadn't taken the bad shot you wouldn't have been in as much trouble.
Live and learn... but first you gotta live.
Stay safe. Glad you're okay.

[Silvanus]

Thanks for sharing your story. I have no idea what I would have done in your situation, so I refrain from trying to tell you what you did right or wrong. But one more lesson that I learned from your example is to always have a spare firearm that you DON'T give to the police when they want to confiscate all your guns while you're still in danger:eek:

[Dihappy]

2 things i find frightening:

You hid and waited for them to return

and

After it was over, you seem convinced that you should have taken him out when you had the chance.


People talk about armchair quarterbacking, but i definitely know what i WOULDNT have done: walked out with a gun/shotgun and laid in wait, and especially run up to someone in a car and point my gun at them.

Im as sure about that as i am sure that i wouldnt have stopped to make myself an omelet.

[devildogdad]

What if you sit by an upstairs bedroom window, tactical rifle of choice by your side not pointing out,and look out the window. Does that constitute 'stalking' ?

Are some of you saying that you should leave your house and say go to a motel because you don't feel safe? Is that really the best way to handle this?

Difficult situation,

[ATW525]

What if you sit by an upstairs bedroom window, tactical rifle of choice by your side not pointing out,and look out the window. Does that constitute 'stalking' ?

It would not be stalking... stalking is completely different. Well, unless you're looking out the window to eyeball your neighbor, that is.

I wouldn't think it would be unreasonable to keep a look out for trouble if you had a credible reason to expect it. The actions you take if trouble shows up are likely going to have a big influence on the potential difficulties you'll face after the incident is over, though. I believe that gunning them down from the window as they pull up in their cars or try to cross your lawn will be severely frowned upon in many jurisdictions.

Are some of you saying that you should leave your house and say go to a motel because you don't feel safe? Is that really the best way to handle this?

Any solution that ends up with you and your family alive and not in prison is a passable one. Different people have different priorities and will likely use different methods to arrive at such an outcome. Some people will stand and fight for their homes, some people will prefer to abandon their homes in search of greater safety, and yet others would have just let the gang member smack their wife and neighbor around because they wanted to avoid conflict altogether (I hope none of the latter category are on this forum, but such people most definitely exist).

[Stagger Lee]

...

[azwizard]

Divemedic,

I too lived in VB at the same time as you while serving in the Navy at Dam Neck, 1988-92. Lived near Witchduck Rd. and the Lynnhaven Mall. Pretty much the same situation that happened to you happened to us as well.

We moved into a new Condo type development as a E-5 with dozens of Military family's around us initially. As people were reassigned and moved away alot of the houses didn't sell and were turned into rentals or section 8 housing. We had two apartment complexes on either side of our development that were already seedy places to be after the sun went down and things just spilled over into our neighborhood as the gangs fought it out.

As the crime level increased and the nightly gun shots went off, I started carrying at all times. We built a 6 foot tall privacy fence around the back and side yards as a buffer, and did the same with our immediate neighbors yards as well.

Same sort of scenario developed out front of my home one afternoon, wife came home from work and the neighbor to the left side and the two from across the street were arguing with a thug from the apartments out back. Seems the thug was trying to tear down a section of fence along the side yard that was installed as a utilities easement there by closing off a short cut through our neighborhood into the apartments behind us. My wife (ex now) was trying to mediate the situation and not getting anywhere when I pulled into the driveway.

The Thug at that point tried to take out one of the neighbors with his ball bat that he had been using to destroy the fence with and was chasing my wife away from the downed neighbor when I rounded the corner. Big mistake! He never even saw me coming as I cracked him on the collar bone with the barrel of my .357. He dropped the bat and sat there crying like a baby as I tied his hands up with my belt and had one of the other two neighbor's call the police.

Subsequent 15 minute wait for the police and the ambulance arrived for the downed neighbor. During the making room for the paramedics shuffle of people the Thug takes off running, screaming it's a gang thing and he'll be back with his posse.

Police show up finally and take statements and say they'll check out the apartments during the night and off they go. Downed neighbor has concussion and is off to the hospital. My wife goes off to get his wife from work and take her to the hospital.

The remaining neighbors and I agree to watch out for each other for the next few days. Didn't take but 4 hours for the gang to show up and flash bang the neighbors house (concussion guy's) thank god they were still at the hospital, guess they thought that's where I lived. I had taken the kids and picked up my wife from the hospital and we were out to dinner when that happened. VB Police paged me and advised me not to return home. Great..

[azwizard]

So wife is scared and won't go home not that I really wanted to take them there anyway so we spend a few nights with friends and finally go home a few days later.

Next morning one of the neighbors across the street's wife gets carjacked in her driveway while loading the kids up for school. Her and the kids weren't hurt but they were told it was in retaliation for what had happend just days previously. That's it my wife's on the phone to her Mom and her and the kids are on a plane to Phoenix before noon, and I spend a couple more nights on our friends couch as a precaution.

Go home and the house has been ransacked, called VB police they make another report and more promises to drive by, Do I have any guns in the house as they want to confiscate them so that I don't escalate the situation, :mad: I lied and told them they were all stolen when they broke into the house, ok, ok, make sure to call us if they come back! :mad: and off they go!!

Fortunately my guns were all at my friends house less my .357 ;) which was between the seats in my car. Used my Neighbors phone (concussion guy) to call and get the Insurance agent out and make an appointment with a Realtor.

Showed up 2 days later to meet the Insurance agent and the Realtor with about 15 of my armed to the teeth friends and a moving truck :D. We posted a guard around the house and yard and I finished all of my business with the above mentioned professionals and packed up what ever wasn't broken and left.

I canceled my paperwork to re-up after 12 years and started looking for a job. Found a nice one in Arizona and have been here since. The really sad thing was about a week after I listed the house and moved they killed concussion guy in his driveway when he got home from work. :mad:

Tactics wise our house and yard weren't really defensible unless we stayed inside, and I suspect that might be the case in most suburban settings. That wouldn't have proved wise since they had access to flash bang grenades and who knew what else. And yes SKS's were extreemely popular and cheap there then.

That would not be the situation on the ranch now. You can't get anywhere near my place that I or the animals don't see you coming for at least 1/4 mile before you pull up in front of the house. Friends call first before coming over and everyone else gets stopped in their car by my really big dog fluffy and me on the front porch.

[HiBC]

I think the Republic of Texas has a better idea...
I have no advise.
Could be,I need to let the system handle it till I reach the point that nothing else matters.Once,I stuffed my 97 full of #4 buck with the idea that whatever happened to me didn't matter so long as my wife and daughter were OK.No need to tell the story,it didn't go that far.I was understood,and believed.

In testimony that what is right doesn't matter,my town late 90's a young man was jumped by four young men.He ran.They caught him,had him down,and were kicking the crap out of him.He pulled his Buck folding hunter and killed one.He got 5 years.Our DA said "You brought a knife to a fist fight"
I wonder,if this DA had 4 guys knock her to the ground and begin kicking her if she would feel justified in pulling a Smith out of her purse and shooting till it was over.
See,we are supposed to be sensitive to the idea these poor little gang bangers can be saved by the public school system if we are sensitive and patient enough.You failed to be politically correct,and sometimes,that will cost a lot.But,maybe if you had done anything different,somebody would be dead.

[FM12]

Former Navy myself (TM3/SS). You did as good as you could, no one should have the expectation of any better or different. Glad you're here to tell your story. One real life experience shared is equal to 10,000 "well, what if this , or that." I Lived in Charleston SC while in the Navy and had some experiences with thugs, but nothing like this. I've been a cop now since being HONORABLY discharged in 1975. The justice system SUCKS, especially for the law abidding citizens.:(:(

[meathunter]

For goodness sakes, lay off him already. Where you there, was it your families life at risk?? :mad:

Nothing is quite as offensive than Monday morning quaterbacking a situation like this. While I respect LEO's and appreciate the hard job they have, I do not expect them to be there to protect or to save me from danger. That is my job, because I am always there and armed.

I live in a quiet burg close to Dallas (I long to move to the mountains :D), but that will not happen until I retire or when the SHTF. So far, the gang bangers and other low life scum (meth heads, etc,.) have not moved here because the county LEO's have a very tough redneck reputation and carry .45 ACP's on their hips. To date, that has helped keep undesirables out of my little hamlet.

Since Texas has adopted the castle doctrine plus my CHL, I feel a little safer.

divemedic,

Stop explaining already, you did the only thing you could do. The best defense is a good offense.

Everybody has an opinion. Mine may stink and be offensive, but it's still my opinion

[Stevie-Ray]

- The worry about pulling the trigger and what it will do to your life. Not only the hesitation at taking a life, but the hesitation at whether or not it is going to be a "good shoot" and going to jail.No matter how we hope to "do the right thing" when faced with the ultimate horror of kill or suffer killing, that worry will always be there. I can only hope that, God forbid, if I'm faced with that choice, that worry lasts a tenth of a second, no more. But, even a good shoot produces a life completely changed more times than not. I'm very sorry you had to move, but under the circumstances, I certainly understand. We, in this neighborhood, have had to "take our streets back" from miscreants bent on taking over more than once, though not quite to the level of your experience, and I won't elaborate on it here. Suffice to say all we've done is to prolong the house values for a time and our area remains quiet and, for the most part, still desireable. Hopefully it stays that way for a few years, until I can once again get a decent price for my house, and leave on MY OWN terms. And, here's hoping you never have to be put in a similar situation again. All the best.

[wildturkey76209]

Personally I am astounded that you dropped the charges against the gangbangers in the first place. Second, it seems that you must have had either Larry, Moe, and Curley prosecuting those thugs or the DA's office had a serious case of sympathy for the devil. Tough situation. Seems like you almost have to let one of them take a shot at you before you can kill the lot of them...

[Homesteader]

Very sorry that you had to go through this, and I'm thankful you're willing to share so we all can learn. It has been an interesting discussion. I'm a newbie to it all (firearms and SD) and am not trying to be judgemental or say anything about what transpired, only understand better.

During the first incident, was the thug just holding the weapon, or taunting/threatening with it? Of course, even if he was just holding it, that could change in an instant. Did he advance when others backed away?

When you knew they'd be back and waited outside for them, you've said that that was to keep any conflicts outside, away from your family. Was there enough time where you could have had your wife and children leave while you monitored the situation? I understand not wanting to completely leave your home, but would this have helped you defend better? With an empty home, would you choose the same course of action?

[CCDWnKY]

Guess I am just fed up with it. I read everyday in the paper about things like this and nothing ever gets done. We need to elect people who care about the law abiding citizen far more than the bad guys...........

And here in lies the problem. Which one of these crowds do the lawyers make their money from?

What are most of our elected officials before being elected? Lawyers!!!!

They are not going to put themselves out of business, you can bank on that!

All of their twisted laws are just job security as they convert law abiding citizens into criminals with laws the average citizen will never be able to abide by 100% of the time.

Not to get off topic here, but on topic with my reply, I recently visited some friends in Tennessee. None of which are carry conceal holders. I had to do some internet research on the TN CC laws. I was disappointed to find out I could not carry my weapon into a restaurant that serves alcohol, even though I do not drink and it is not a bar. (In KY you can). So I had a decision to make, (all the while thinking about the Luby's TX incident) do I abide by the law and leave my gun in the car, or carry it in, knowing no one will ever know I am carrying it. I opted to obey the law, even though I have very strong opposition to it. I would have never forgiven myself if something would of happened that day to my family.