AR-15 keeps jamming

[Cooter85]

I just bought my first AR yesterday. It's a S&W M&P 15. It came with two 30 round magazines, one BFI, and one that just says NHMTG S/42 and feels cheap and flimsy. I took it out shooting today, and the darn thing jams every few shots. I was really excited to shoot it, and then got more bummed out as I kept having to stop to clear jams. They were kicking sideways in the chamber, and not feeding the next cartridge.
I tried two brands of ammo, and two different clips. It is a brand new gun, and from what I was told, one of the better brands of AR 15's. I know it isn't broken in yet, but this is ridiculous. The clip was pushed in all the way, and I had no problems chambering the first round, but after I shot, it wouldn't chamber another. Any ideas to what the problem is?

[Lavid2002]

does the spent casing get caught in the action because the bgolt catches it before it can completely clear the rifle? If so you can try a few things
*Take your bolt out and clean out the lip of the extractor, to assume a new gun is a clean gun is false. Many firearms of mine were dirty when purchased from being tested at the factory or whathave you. clean er up! And dont lose that spring!
*Buy a D-fender extractor helper....these are pricy for an o-ring. Just go to AR15.com and look for what size o-ring it is that you place around the extractor spring to help it. Save you 15 bux! I beleive its a #6 oring BUT! dont hold me to it :D
*Stick it out, try cleaning it out and if you dont wana buy an o-ring or the "d-fender" scam instead of the o-ring then wait until the gun breaks in...shes brand new. Shoot it a little bit and let the parts get all luvy dovey...if you stil have problems consider further evaluation and let me know via P.M.

Hope this helps : D
Dave

[oldcspsarge]

The ammo is a little light for the recoil spring all being brand new.

Lock the bolt carrier to the rear by pushing the mag catck lock or by using an empty mag.

Let it stay locked to the rear for 2 days and then go try it out on the range..that should take enough set to cure that problem.

[Lavid2002]

As for your failure to feed problem check the magazines. Give the cartridges a smack to the back of the magazine after its loaded, then make sure ur magazine isnt diving when feeding the carteidges. Do you have the same problems with each mag? Did you try other brands of mags? if so.....

hmmmm maybe the problem is in the ammo....after all you said the rifle is FTE by stove piping, and FTF. Perhaps the rifle is short-stroking...This occurs when the bolt fails to cycle completely due to a lack of pressure. This can cause stovepipes(You have this) and it can also cause the bolt not to travel back enough to strip off, and feed a new catridge. Try different types of ammo....NOT WOLF! Let me know what ammo your using and lets see what happens : D

[oldbillthundercheif]

What kind of ammo were you using?

If it's not an ammunition problem, try more magazines. AR mags vary wildly in quality.

If it isn't the ammo or the mags, I guess try cleaning your gas tube. It seems unlikely that S&W would ship a rifle in a filthy condition, but stranger thing have happened.

It could also be a lubrication issue. Break it down, clean the hell out of it, and apply a light coat of CLP. I've had bad luck with other lubes in ARs, but CLP works great.

[Wildalaska]

Ammo type?

WildcoulditbeAlaska TM

[DnPRK]

Buy a couple known good magazines such as Magpul's PMAG. Also use lots of lube on the bolt and bolt carrier during break in.

[CGSteve8718]

Do you notice the bolt carrier group even moving after you fire the first shot? It sounds like you have a short stroking problem. This could be caused by gas leakages that you may have in your rifle.

If you bought the rifle new, this could be due to some shoddy manufacturing and parts. Possible leakage points are near the front sight, at the carrier key, gas rings, and where the bolt extends through the carrier by the firing pin.

A big part of gas leak trouble is gas tube and carrier key contact. You can check how well they mate by removing the bolt from the carrier, and removing the charging handle, slide the carrier in and see if there is any drag.

I don't know if that's what your problem is, but you can check it, or get someone to do it for you. If you have a gas leakage at the front sight, you'll notice black spots there. A new rifle shouldn't have these problems, and gas tubes are "self cleaning". You don't need to "clean" gas tubes, because the pressure from firing cleans it, that is what is meant by self cleaning, if you stuff things in it, all the stuff that falls off of patches or q tips will just end up back in your action area.

[DonR101395]

As the others have said, clean it lube it and try a different magazine. While you're cleaning check the gas key for movement, a gas leak will cause it to short stroke, but I'm inclined to say it's a lubrication or magazine issue. Don't stick anything in the gas tube at around 30,000 psi they are self cleaning and all of the carbon ends up on the bolt where it's slowed down and cooled.


Edit: Steve beat me to the punch.

[lmccrock]

New gun? Call S&W first thing. Do not replace any parts since they should be selling you a working rifle. Did they supply a magazine with the rifle?

The aluminum mags may feel flimsy - they are pretty durable. If you must go for more, I tried a CProducts Stainless Steel mag and it worked, and that is the one they drove over with some vehicle and it still worked.

And let us know what ammo.

Lee

[Cooter85]

I appologize for not stating the brands of ammo. Wolf and Lellier & Bellot.
The gun was well lubricated
I had no problems with the spent cartridge clearing, it was chambering a new one that was the problem. The catridges were either turning sideways in the chamber, or not chambering at all. I do plan on trying other magazines, I hope that is the problem. Isn't BFI mags made by Bushmaster though?
Also, I thought Wolf was a better brand of ammo. What are some good brands of .223?

[oldbillthundercheif]

Wolf is the bottom of the barrel. Some ARs will run it, some won't. S&B is a little better, but not the best.

From your extra information it sounds like a magazine problem. If the feed lips are not perfect you are likely to get feeding problems like you describe.

Try a few different high-quality mags and a few different types of ammo and I bet you will find a combination it likes.

[DonR101395]

Also, I thought Wolf was a better brand of ammo. What are some good brands of .223?

S&B can be weak, but it's still not bad ammo. Wolf should run in a properly functioning gun, but some guns do have problems with it.
FWIW, I'm on my 10th case of Wolf .223 since last July with no problems in my Colt, LMTs and and guns I've built. If you try another brand of ammo and mag and have no gas obvious gas leaks, call S&W.

[CGSteve8718]

lmccrock, are you sure you aren't referring to Magpul's PMAGs? Because I know for sure they did the truck test with those.

Anyway, it sounds more of a mag problem cooter than a gas leakage problem. If it's not, I agree with the poster who said, send it back to them, since it is a brand new rifle.

As for mags, plain aluminum USGI mags work fine, someone will confirm this, but I don't remember which ones they were. I believe they were the ones with the green followers. You see, there are people who try to sell mags as being USGI, and aside from the follower and some other details, they are not. Don't be scammed at gunshows, shops, etc.

PMAGs also work fine, and seem to be the late great hype lately. They are relatively cheap at $15 retail.

Don't concern yourself with the ultra expensive H&K mags, they feel very sturdy, but under hard conditions, actually don't hold up as well as USGI or PMAGs. This is coming from numerous people I talked with who have attended tactical carbine classes taught by very knowledgeable folks, but it's still hearsay from me. Take it for what you will. However, I myself have used H&K mags (as they were issued to me) in some military classes, and they worked well for me. Although I think some of these private trainers run even more rounds than we did in a given course.

As for Wolf, I don't want to turn this guy's thread into a "don't use Wolf" thread, but I believe that a quality functioning rifle will feed any factory ammo just fine. Like DonR, I also have never had any problems feeding Wolf .223 in my Colt AR 15, or with any other caliber in other guns for that matter. And with prices the way they are, Wolf is affordable. Same with Sellier and Bellot.

[Strauss]

My Bushmaster M4 that I just got apparently does not like Wolf :mad: My gun had the exact problem yours is having when I shot Wolf. So far, every other brand has worked fine. I did go back to Wolf to give it one more try after breaking the gun in a bit, and I still had the same problem with it. No more Wolf for my AR, but my Saiga in 7.62x39mm sure does like it! :)

[Wildalaska]

Owwwwoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

WildchalkanotherupforwolfAlaska TM

[10-96]

Granted, I haven't bought just a whole lot of 'em- I have yet to lay hands on a brand new factory mag that hasn't given me headaches. The worst was Bushmaster and GI Okay Industries. The crappy part was the Okays were issued to us in Iraq. I spent a lot of time with a small file and pliers to get our 30 rounders to operate with at least 28 rnds. I just ordered some PRI mags for my 6.8 and I'm really hoping they aren't goobered up.

Is the S&W chambered for 5.56 or .223? Able Ammo has some 5.56 Federal Lake City for a decent price that ought to get you through your woes (maybe) until you get things running right. How many rounds are you putting into each mag? Try loading to half the capacity, lots of lube on the bolt, and call S&W if all else fails.

[Cooter85]

I appreciate all this feedback.
I went ahead and ordered a couple magpul pmags a few minutes ago. I'll post the results when they come in.

[LittleLebowski]

You might think about a Crane O-ring upgrade as well.

[Tim R]

NHMTG is a contractor for Colt. I have not had problems with a NHMTG mag. The only difference between a NHMTG and a Colt mag is the floor plate.

Define well Lubed. The bolt and bolt carrier?

Gas rings lined up? They should be spaced 90 degrees apart.

I have 2 White Oak service rifle uppers. Number 1 won't run on our beloved Black Hills remand. as it short strokes. But it does run on my reloads very well winning matches and money. I haven't tried Black Hill remand. in upper #2 and it wins matches and money.

No firearm I own has ever touched Wolf ammo. Ever.

[Toolman]

I'm not familiar with the S & W AR (yet). Does it have an adjustable gas block? If so, maybe the manual tells you how to adjust it?
My AR's are Bushmaster & Rock River.

[44 AMP]

First. Any time you have any issues with feeding and functioning of any semi auto rifle or pistol, the first thing to do is try a different magazine, and if possible use one known to work properly in another gun.

Based on your description it sounds like what is happening is that the round is popping up out of the magazine as the bolt pushes it forward, before it is supposed to, and instead of being guided to the chamber by the feed lips it is bouncing around infront of the bolt, and is too far out of alignment to chamber when it gets there. It hits one of the lugs, bounces sideways, and is pinned by the bolt. Another posibility is the round is "nose diving", meaning that the nose of the round is moving down when the bolt pushes it forward, catching on the front of the magazine. Then either the whole thing stops (not what you described), or possibly the round pops out of the mag, and does what I previously described. Either way, a magazine problem.

First thing is try a diffferent mag. Second thing is try the original mag without loading it up full. Old soldiers learned back in Vietnam that M16s worked better if the mags were a couple of rounds short of stated capacity. Some work fine full up, others do not.

I see you have ordered new mags. Let us know how they work out. If you still have trouble, we can go from there. And for pete's sake, get some decent ammo. Once you know your gun is ok, shoot the cheap junk if you want (and if it works), but don't assume your rifle is bad unless you know for sure the ammo is good. There is a reason cheap ammo is cheap, and it usually ain't because they sell it in bulk!

Good Luck, and write if you get work!

[deathshead]

sell it and buy an ak :D

[oldbillthundercheif]

sell it and buy an ak

Better yet, keep it and buy an AK. Everyone should have at least one of each.:D

[deathshead]

agreed. I miss my ar

[ibfestus]

...and some of them are Vietnam era. I have never had a magazine problem after 20,000 rounds. Most of my 30 or 40 mags are Adventure Line GI's.
Granted, I have never shot anything but brass cartridges both boxer and berdan types. South African, Chinese, Canadian, LC, Rem yellow, Win white, etc, etc.

I would bet money the problem is in the bolt/carrier group. Take the bolt/carrier and see if the bolt will rotate by shaking it. Use the same motion you woud use with a fly swatter.. the bolt should rotate freely. If it doesn't, it probably needs to be looked at,,, the gas rings or something is just not right.

I guess I'm lucky but I've owned AR clones, Colts, and a H&R M16A1 NFA registered machine gun. Never had any problems like you have described.

[pinstripe]

Sell it and buy 3 ak's. I did and would do it again, only sooner!:D

[Buzzcook]

Call S&W.

If you have the same problem with Remington or Federal ammo it isn't the ammo.

If you know someone with a similar gun try your mags in their gun. If they work it ain't the mags.

[pdh]

I am no means an expert..New to ARs myself....just got a Bushmaster V Match.....in the manual I read......the gaps in the gas rings....they should not be in line? All three staggered 120 degrees ? Could this be possibly a problem?

[acetum]

For all those that like WOLF ammo. Read page 37, http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/manuals/owners.pdf

My new .308 came with a yellow flyer saying that shooting WOLF would void the warranty.

Also I don't know if someone mentioned, but don't leave your ammo in the mags, unless you have Mapul mags with the dust/storage cover on them. Leaving ammo in the mags causes lip fatigue causing miss fed rounds.

http://www.magpul.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80_120&products_id=268

good luck...

[DaveInGA]

1. Clean and lubricate your weapon, be generous with the lube. S&W M4's are made by Stag and Stag is known to be a very tight gun when new.

2. Use Winchester white box ammo or some of the Lake City surplus that's come out for sale recently to test your rifle with.

I suspect you may find the gun will fire fine. If so, shoot it a while to break it in, keeping it well lubed (wet) for a while. If not, swap the mag and retry, if mag does not correct issue, contact the manufacturer.

Regards,

Dave

[DonR101395]

For all those that like WOLF ammo. Read page 37, http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/manuals/owners.pdf


Figures that DPMS hasn't updated their manual as manufacturers have updated their ammunition. Wolf hasn't used laquer in quite some time.

[lmccrock]

Sorry - out of town guests and I did not get back here.

lmccrock, are you sure you aren't referring to Magpul's PMAGs? Because I know for sure they did the truck test with those.
Pretty sure I was thinking CProducts, and specific to the stainless. The only reference I can find is here (http://www.oa2.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4568).

Seems like BFI is Bushmaster. The only BFI mag I have came with a Bushmaster rifle and is never a problem. But the only mags which did not work in my rifles were some no name steel mags. Even Thermold and Orlite work in mine (although those are not my first recommendation). Never tried Magpul PMags.

The Federal XM193 ammo is becoming available again ("Lake City"). Use that, and no one will challenge your choice. That having been said, Wolf should work. Wolf is selling some ammo with brass cases, so it ain't all the old lacquer coated steel.

Cooter, there is an AR15.com thread (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=366373) describing a similar condition. No answer, just company.

Lee

[Bart Noir]

Cooter, I bought a M&P15 (the T version with the long quad-rail) just a few months back and had the same sort of short stroke problems. My buddy and I kept adding lube (I was not edumacated on what it really requires and was certainly shooting it in a too-dry condition) and after 150 rounds the problems ended. And never came back.

So maybe it did need just a little break-in action. And now I keep it well-lubed, such that it sends a little smoke out of the receiver cracks on the first shot after lubing.

I highly recommend the 2 volumes of Patrick Sweeney's AR-15 books.

Bart Noir

[acetum]

Figures that DPMS hasn't updated their manual as manufacturers have updated their ammunition. Wolf hasn't used laquer in quite some time.

I saw nothing but that at the gun show last weekend. We went shooting and a friend of a friend showed up with it in his 40. I warned him, he shot it anyway, jamed all day long, after his gun heated up.

[GLK]

Mags Mags Mags Lube Lube Lube. BTW S&W 15 series(according to S&W) are no longer made by Stag.

[CGSteve8718]

I am no means an expert..New to ARs myself....just got a Bushmaster V Match.....in the manual I read......the gaps in the gas rings....they should not be in line? All three staggered 120 degrees ? Could this be possibly a problem?

Yes, stagger the gaps in the rings. They shouldn't align during operation, but when they do, it can cause gas leakage, which is not good. They have one piece gas rings as an upgrade, but it's not really necessary.

[DonR101395]

I saw nothing but that at the gun show last weekend. We went shooting and a friend of a friend showed up with it in his 40. I warned him, he shot it anyway, jamed all day long, after his gun heated up.

If they had laquer coated Wolf it was some pretty old stock. They stopped using it in the 2004ish time frame. I go through 8000-10000 rounds of it a year and haven't seen laquer in probably 3 years, in 04-05 I would still get a case of it from time to time when someone found a case in a corner.
Some guns just won't cycle it due to other issues such as tight chamber dimensions, weak extractor springs, undersized gas port etc.

[Bart Noir]

Patrick Sweeney has tried, more than once, to get AR-15 weapons to jam due to this laquer. He got them good and hot (the best way, launching bullets), put a round in the hot chamber, and set them aside to cool.

No jams resulted. This may only mean that some brands were more forgiving of the laquer than others, but I find it interesting.

Bart Noir

[MacGille]

After reading some of the posts about the AR I am outraged that the Government is equipping our troops with such an inferior weapon. Besides the inadequate caliber, the durn things don't function without the operator having to do major modifications and to constantly clean this piece of junk.

I was issued the M1 in basic training, and in spite of the weight (9.8 lb.) of it I dould depend on it to shoot when I pulled the trigger. I could also hit a man at 8oo yd, and when hit they fell down. And didn't get up again. In 1962 we were issued the m-14, and after some initial problems(cracking upper hand guards) they were servicible rifles. Granted in full auto you had too shoot short groups (3rds) to control them, but they were accurate out to 800 meters. We did have to learn to guard the magazine lips against damage, but the rifle went bang every time you wanted it to.

I know, I'm old fashioned, but a rifle that jams, fails to feed, stovepipes, and won't penetrate a windshield is not adequate for the best military force on the planet. I hope the powers that be will change this before we lose too many more Americans.:mad:

[Rampant_Colt]

quoted by MacGille:
After reading some of the posts about the AR I am outraged that the Government is equipping our troops with such an inferior weapon. Besides the inadequate caliber, the durn things don't function without the operator having to do major modifications and to constantly clean this piece of junk
<snip>
Surely you can't be serious...?
Have you even talked to a current soldier qualified with an AR?
Shall we re-equip our troops with Garands and M-14's? :rolleyes:
Please refrain from making untrue biased blanket statements

Please share your stories of caliber inadequacy concerning the modern 5.56mm and not 60's-era problems [that have been ironed out 40 years ago]

@ the OP - can you cycle the rounds manually?
try using Remington, Federal, Winchester or Hornady brass-cased ammo...
Is your rifle 5.56 or.223 chambered?

[GLK]

After reading some of the posts about the AR I am outraged that the Government is equipping our troops with such an inferior weapon. Besides the inadequate caliber, the durn things don't function without the operator having to do major modifications and to constantly clean this piece of junk.

I was issued the M1 in basic training, and in spite of the weight (9.8 lb.) of it I dould depend on it to shoot when I pulled the trigger. I could also hit a man at 8oo yd, and when hit they fell down. And didn't get up again. In 1962 we were issued the m-14, and after some initial problems(cracking upper hand guards) they were servicible rifles. Granted in full auto you had too shoot short groups (3rds) to control them, but they were accurate out to 800 meters. We did have to learn to guard the magazine lips against damage, but the rifle went bang every time you wanted it to.

I know, I'm old fashioned, but a rifle that jams, fails to feed, stovepipes, and won't penetrate a windshield is not adequate for the best military force on the planet. I hope the powers that be will change this before we lose too many more Americans.




Welcome to the 21st century, "this ain't your grandpa's AR/M16" is one way to look at it. My Son(a Marine)has done one tour in Iraq and says the weapons they were issued functioned just fine and seemed to do it's job as intended. Wonder if the terrorist are now using windshields for body armor:rolleyes:?

[Cooter85]

I finally got my Pmags in. My little town is pretty dry on .223 right now, but I managed to get a few boxes of PMC and one remington box (not the UMC, the yellow box.) First off, the remington ammo in the Pmag jammed every few shots. Then as I loaded the PMC, the jams got less frequent. And finally, the last 20 rounds fired with no jams. So I'm hoping I just need to put a few hundred more through it, to fully break her in.
To answer some of the questions from you guys:
The rifle says 5.56, and I haven't got a hold of any, only .223 but I'd heard M&P15's are pretty tolerant to either one.
Also, it is not a short stroking problem. The rifle ejects the spent casings fine. The problem comes from rounds being kicked sideways trying to chamber.
And yes I set the gas rings apart.
Yes I have plenty of lube in it.

I hope it is just a tough break-in that I need to get through. Thank you for your advice and support. And by the way, I will not sell this and buy an AK. The next rifle I buy will probably be an AK, but I love AR15's now, even though I'm having trouble with mine. I am proud our troops carry such a qualified rifle for the job.

[CRUE CAB]

Had a similar problem this weekend.
I had no feeding problems with Lake City ammo in varios mags, but PMC and Brown Bear would not feed but 2 or 3 rounds at a time.
The bolt would not pick up the next round out of the mag but only slide accross the top of it leaving scrapes in the brass.
My gun is an almost new SW with only a few mags through it so far.
My buddy was there with is older RRA and had no issues at all but his barrel was getting scorching hot compared to mine.
I know this is an old thread but does relate to my issue.
Thanks for any input.

[WhyteP38]

Yes, stagger the gaps in the rings. They shouldn't align during operation, but when they do, it can cause gas leakage, which is not good. They have one piece gas rings as an upgrade, but it's not really necessary.Actually, it is not necessary to stagger the gaps. You can even run an AR with just one standard gas ring.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I know this is an old thread but does relate to my issue.

It would have been better to start a new thread; because:

1. Half the replies will now be directed to the original poster instead of you
2. Your problem is not as related as you think, I suspect.

I had no feeding problems with Lake City ammo in varios mags, but PMC and Brown Bear would not feed but 2 or 3 rounds at a time.
The bolt would not pick up the next round out of the mag but only slide accross the top of it leaving scrapes in the brass.
My gun is an almost new SW with only a few mags through it so far.

OK, if the bolt is not picking up the next round and instead is riding over the top of it, then one of two things is happening:

1. The bolt carrier is coming back over the magazine before the magazine can push the next round into position.
2. The bolt carrier is not going all the way back and therefore isn't loading the next round.

However, you say Lake City works fine. This makes #1 unlikely because Lake City typically has a little more "oomph" to it and if the bolt were coming back too fast, it should be worse with Lake City.

That suggests #2 is the problem as PMC and Brown Bear both tend to be a little underpowered.

The quick way to test this is to load a single round of PMC or Brown Bear into your magazine and fire it and see if the bolt locks back on the empty magazine. If it doesn't, that suggests the bolt carrier is not coming back far enough.

Normally, there is a whole list of places to look for possible short-stroking problems; but in this case I would guess it is a case of new rifle tightness, not enough lubrication and underpowered ammo. Add generous, sloppy amounts of lube anywear you see wear points and give it another try would be my advice.

[CRUE CAB]

Thanks, if I have further problems I will definatly start a thread or find a newer one.
We are heading out to the range again this weekend.
Will do some head to head testing after a good cleaning and lubing up.
Thanks agian.