Do you get involved...

[BillCA]

Lots of discussions have revolved around either getting involved on the behalf of another person or not.

Please watch the video below and presume you're one of the bystanders who can clearly see what's happening. Do you get involved?

Video: http://www.filecabi.net/video/07190513_attack.html

[5whiskey]

"He who knows the good it is he ought to do and does it not, sins."
"There is a greater form of evil, and that evil is the indifferance of good men."



In this situation? Hell Yes

[newerguy]

I'd want to know who those guys on the passenger side are.

Who else is around? Does a, "hey what up", send the bad guy running? Sometimes it does? I'd go that far. How about, "the cops are on the way"? How about a 911 call? Let's say I know the guys on the passenger side aren't involved, they aren't the bad guy's friends, or I'm pretty sure they aren't. I might think about getting involved, based on that video. I don't want to see an old guy get beaten to death, but I'm still not up to killing the bad guy, if that's the question. I'd be worried if I thought he had friends. A gun would still not be on my list of tools to employ.

OK, here's a real life senario I've been waiting to bring up: You see one drunk threatening another guy with a knife. It's looking bad. The other guys got his hands up and is backing away. A lot of people are standing around. People are yelling, "knock it off", or "calm down". The guy with the knife has his back to you. You are worried the other guy is going to get hurt or killed. Are you justified in shooting the guy with the knife? If I told you I ended that situation with an arm bar and and wrist lock, and based on the fact that worked, I don't think a person would be justified in using deadly force, what would you say?

[cosmolinelover]

That was a tough video to watch. Absolutely disgusting. There was a shooting at an apartment complex I lived in not too long ago and I chose to protect my own and stay inside, rather than step into the line of fire. However I would hope that if I ever witnessed such an event I would have the gumption to step up and do something. Although I'm not sure what I would do.

[Groundhog]

BillCA,

Believe it or not, that 'type' of situation was actually covered in our CHL class. It would be nice if you could determine if the other bystanders were with the BG or not. If you KNEW the weren't (or say they weren't there) the most you ought to do is (assuming you were willing to risk escalation) pull out your cell phone and say you are calling the police. A possibly wiser response would be to ensure you are safe and quietly call police. I didn't listen to the sound on that video so I may be missing some clues that could alter my reaction. I would most definitely call the police asap. Given what I saw, not sure if I'd go further than that. It sure doesn't warrant deadly force though. "Well officer, he was beating him up so I shot him!"

I would like to know what a LEO would do if they were there and on duty (you see it happening). Just for my own curiosity. Would you or should you draw on the suspect and order him to surrender? Or do you use some other method to attempt to get him to surrender first?

OK, here's a real life scenario I've been waiting to bring up: You see one drunk threatening another guy with a knife. It's looking bad. The other guys got his hands up and is backing away. A lot of people are standing around. People are yelling, "knock it off", or "calm down". The guy with the knife has his back to you. You are worried the other guy is going to get hurt or killed. Are you justified in shooting the guy with the knife? If I told you I ended that situation with an arm bar and and wrist lock, and based on the fact that worked, I don't think a person would be justified in using deadly force, what would you say?

I'd have to know more to answer that. Why was I there? If I was drinking, I wouldn't have my gun on anyway. I have no hand to hand skills so it would be very foolhardy for me to attempt something like you did. I really am not sure what I'd do in that situation.

[BillCA]

Interesting replies.

Keep in mind the victim is an elderly man (91 years old) and according to the news intro, he was punched 21 times by a larger attacker. Thus we are only seeing a portion of the entire incident.

Also note that the question is if you get involved, not necessarily drawing and shooting the S.O.B.


You see one drunk threatening another guy with a knife. It's looking bad. The other guys got his hands up and is backing away. A lot of people are standing around. People are yelling, "knock it off", or "calm down". The guy with the knife has his back to you. You are worried the other guy is going to get hurt or killed. Are you justified in shooting the guy with the knife?

No.
With the info provided, I'm not able to determine if the armed man is simply defending himself against the other or is the instigator of the event. Additionally, with "a lot" of others standing around, a shooting could/would endanger them. Lastly, in the event of a shooting, there is a possibility that at least one or more people knows the knife-user and is sympathetic to him which will show up as inaccurate or confusing witness statements.

[Magdaddy]

Yes I would.

[Syntax360]

Ya, without a doubt.

[garryc]

They attack a 91 yr old man because they see him as an easy mark. Likely, if a younger stronger man would have stepped into the picture they would have run away.
In Ohio you may intercede on behalf of another with lethal force if they would have been justified in using lethal force if they could. It's your responsibility to mount an affirmative defense and prove the shoot was justified( I.E. guilty until proven innocent) In this case, due to the age difference, he would have been. Yet, in Ohio, the old man would have had to have had no part of initiating or escalating the incident before he would have been justified in using lethal force. All that would need to happen is the perps saying that the old man called them the "N" word, then you would be charged with at least a felonious assault with a weapon, even if you didn't know the facts. Tough call when it comes to using a weapon. Yet I would intercede with physical force any way, probably with the pepper.

[Groundhog]

To me, an unarmed attack like that is the worst kind to deal with. You have the least amount of justification for getting involved. That's why I wonder what a LEO would do if he saw it happening.

My worst 'fear' if you will, would be someone coming at me or a loved one with just fists. My best defense against it (besides the usual avoidance stuff) is that I look intimidating. To me, hand to hand combat is just as life threatening as someone attacking with a weapon. Still, it would be difficult to defend against justifiably.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Time to post again the well known factors that determine helping behavior.

Diffusion of Responsibility
Ability to intervene
Risk
Identification with the person
Perception of negative affect
Evaluation of whether the action aids promoting group survival
Perceived evaluation of any rewards
Seeing others help

----- Most responses in these sort of threads can be analyzed on how these factors add up for your decision.

There are no absolute, despite what internet folks say - we can predict what happens based on these sorts of things.

[Groundhog]

Glenn, I have never seen that before. Could you go over a few of these?

What is:

Diffusion of Responsibility
Identification with the person
Perception of negative affect (guessing your helping is perceived negatively?)
Perceived evaluation of any rewards

[Duckman44!]

the scenario you described sounds unlikely to say the least. You are aware that an armbar is a move performed with at least one party partially on the ground, right? I'm not sure how you performed an armbar on a guy that was standing up while you were doing the same. Going after someone with a knife isn't the best idea. Even if you are a Matt Hughes wannabe!:rolleyes:

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Diffusion of Responsibility - you think others will help so you hang back

Identification with the person - you feel sympathy for the person, think they are worthy of help. Thus, the young, the old, the innocent. Someone of your racial or ethnic group, your city, your neighborhood - you have some bond that leads you to help them.

You help an old lady - you might not intervene in a gang banger fight.


Perception of negative affect - your actions will make you feel bad or others will think badly of you. If you didn't help rescue a child - you might feel guilt, feel like a coward, think others will think you are a coward. It violates your moral principle not to help - lots of reasons to feel crappy about yourself or worry that others will think you are a crappy person. That makes you feel crappy.


Perceived evaluation of any rewards - you will be a hero. You will get monetary rewards, praise, girls will kiss you, etc. Clearly some of our posters have perceived themselves to be proclaimed as defenders of the realm and showered with garlands after their pro-social action.

The point is that there are models of pro-social action that have a combination of factors. Most posters on the shall you help threads touch on various points and some ignore the influence of others. However, reading their responses I can see some of these factors acting implicitly.

Couldn't shoot yesterday - Mother's day - wife and child and I bonded. See you at the next match, Greg.

[Groundhog]

Thanks Glenn,

It was a good shoot, but just a repeat of Fiesta with some stages gone. Low turn out. I shot AND bonded! :D Of course, my wife had to work until 5.:p

[markj]

I would help the old guy, usualy yelling stop is enough to distract the BG, may get more involved.

I took a knife off a guy once, he stuck it in my neck and let go. Got the scar, lost the knife, this was in a bar where I was bouncer, he was drunk.

[Groundhog]

Please watch the video below and presume you're one of the bystanders who can clearly see what's happening. Do you get involved?

I'd be curious to also know what you would do and why?

[MacGille]

I would have kicked the bg in the balls. I would definitely intervene. I am not afraid of drug abusing hoodlums. I guess that's why I am not a cop anymore. The departments got so PC that we could not be peace officers anymore. This BG deserves to get his head broken by someone who is not afraid of getting involved. Or getting sued. Unfortunately we now have a society run by lawyers and insurance companies. Too bad the Men have all become too afraid to lose their posessions to look out for their fellow men. This victim put his life on the line for us, and we watched him get beaten. Shame on us.

[BoringAccountant]

Fox must have picked up on it today finally. Here is the story (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,272081,00.html).

It appears the people in the video were possibly with the bg.

[Slugthrower]

No doubt about it. The BG would have gotten his f**king a** beat till I broke something and even then I may have not stopped. A good reversed hip toss and then driving my skull into the lower part or side of his filthy f**king face until bones begin to crush inward would only be the beginning!!!

I have been in enough street fights to know that when my adrenaline kicks in pain means nothing. It would only take a few seconds to finish that fool. If any of his buddies wanted some they most likely would get shot and if they were lucky I would let them taste some blinding violence. The others that were that were with the BG look like little wusses to me anyway.

I used to live in a predominantly black neighborhood as child. I am not scared of any sissy a** black men. 3 against one wasn't fair for the BGs the last time I kicked there f88king Gdamn teeth in. Put that piece of dog sh#T in a locked room with me!!! I guarantee that I will make him regret the day he was born!!! THAT VID MAKES ME SOOO F Ing mad , I am ready to rage on his carcass!!!

Two things that one best never do before my eyes. Do not beat on children or elderly people! Spanking children is one thing beating is yet another. No matter there race.

[Dwight55]

I could not view the video, . . . so I assume it is the one where the bg was trying to carjack the 91 year old's vehicle.

Far as I'm concerned, . . . anyone who did not intervene is almost as guilty as the bg who beat the old man.

I really thought it was large of the old man to offer constructive advice to the bg, . . . thinking that my advice, were I the old man, . . . well, . . . it wouldn't have been quite as constructive:D

May God bless,
Dwight

[PTR 91]

This is what society has become, people just standing around and watching a 91 year old man being beat up. If I saw that I would beat the attacker into a coma with my bare hands. If this where to happen my town, the attacker would have been shot to death or mobbed by the towns people.

[Lurper]

I would get involved to the extent of calling 911 (before anything else) and then yelling at the BG to stop. The reality is that (in AZ) if I believe that the guy is going to be beaten to death, I can use deadly force. However, in that setting getting involved could be a real detriment to your well being. You don't know how many of the bystanders are accomplices or sympathetic to the BG (and worse armed!). If you get involved, what are the odds in terms of the number of opponents? If you get involved but don't produce your weapon, you risk getting your a$$ beat and having it taken from you (possibly used against you and the old man). I dont' have a problem risking my life to help my fellow man (I have a commendation to prove it), but I am not a fool willing to lay down my life in a futile display of bravado. If I am to intervene, I want it to be in the most effective manner possible. Taking photos with your phone, writing down the bg's description, paying attention to who in the crowd knows him, all of those are helpful ways to get involved.

How the BG and crowd reacted to my yelling that I called the police would determine my next actions. But, I can't see a good outcome to this whether I am armed or not.

[newerguy]

I'm not sure how you performed an armbar on a guy that was standing up while you were doing the same.

Call it dubious if you want.

I think its about the easiest way to do it. I'm behind, and to his knife hand side, he's looking away, with his knife arm out to the side. He's basically not moving. I grabed his wrist with my right hand, put my left hand on the back of his elbow. It's basically the same as one of the more common come-alongs at this point right? Then I pulled with my right hand, pushed with my left, stepped forward and brought him down.

[Doug.38PR]

Do you get involved

Yes.


You do of course want to look before you leap, but once you've looked, don't just stand there watching.


Just a thought that crossed my mind, I remember seeing a news report a few years ago on either ABC's Prime Time or 20/20 (it may have even been NBC's Dateline) where the reporter covers various incidents which occured against victims while people just stood by and watched offering no help when help was clearly available. The one I remember most from this report is where a woman was being chased on a bridge on foot where cars were tied up in traffic one night. She was running between cars as a man chased her. Somebody managed to videotape the attack, but nobody came to her rescue. If I remember right, she was killed.


I don't know why this is. 40 years ago, if a man was publicly cursing and carrying on with profanity in a public place like a restaurant real men (plural) (and I don't mean "macho" men) would have told him to shut his dirty mouth or suffer the consequences to say nothing of someone hassling a lady or beating on an old man.

Now we sit by in passivity as though the violation or taking of another human being was just a spontanious form of entertainment or curious event.

Why? I guess it's because we live in such a self-absorbed and spoon-fed media entertained culture. Everything is graphically given to us over TV and movies in explicit detail that we are numb to it when we see it in real life.

And/or we live in such a passive effeminate culture.

My .02 cents worth.

BTW, that old man in the video will probably never fully recover from those blows. It's VERY difficult for old people to heal from wounds and bruises, also they get them A LOT easier than when they were younger (my late grandmother and her late brother who were in their 80s used to get small bruises and bleeding under the skin all the time from just bumping into doorknobs or from some other kind of simple bump or scratch. It would take forever for it to go away if at all)

[deerslayer79]

Coming up on something like that would definately make my blood boil :mad: .I would be more than happy and help out that old guy,After I got done openin a large can of whoopass on that [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color],I would probably help the old dude out and let him get a few licks in just for ****s and grins...

[Slugthrower]

"If you get involved but don't produce your weapon, you risk getting your a$$ beat and having it taken from you (possibly used against you and the old man). I don't' have a problem risking my life to help my fellow man (I have a commendation to prove it), but I am not a fool willing to lay down my life in a futile display of bravado." Lurper

I agree that there is a thin line between bravery and stupidity. Call it bravado if it makes you feel better. The truth is that a man that must always carry a firearm in order to have courage is nothing but a coward. Assuming that we all carry a gun 24/7 makes me think that you are a typical white male that grew up in a middle class family, who never got into a fight a day in his life. That BG couldn't even knock out a 91 year old man a yet you are scared to death take a punch in the face from the BG. The others that are with the BG are smaller than the 5 foot 9 inch assailant they would run like the bitches they are. The fight wouldn't have been futile, except maybe for you. Makes me think that you are more of a coward than a man that would beat on such an elderly man. I only wish you were face to face with me now. I would say it to your face! You would do nothing because you are a sissy. That commendation must have been for helping an old lady across an ultra dangerous street. You are a WUSSY LURPER!!! :mad: :barf:


The only reason to carry a gun is to even the odds with the other wusses that carry guns out there.

Some things are worth fighting for. If this get's me kicked from this forum, so be it.

Frankie Seeds.

[PTR 91]

Slugthrower are you a little guy or a big guy, again it realy doesn't matter in a fight. I agree with you that things can be better handled with fists. Anyone that can just sit there and watch that happen to an old man is wronged in the head.

[Slugthrower]

PTR I am 5 foot 9 185lbs. Meaner than hell to boot. I am kind and gentle for the most part. But when you take advantage of the elderly or young, the devil will come out in me. I Apologize for the rant.

[longtooth50]

I am 57 & very bad autharitis. I still would have to get involved w/ something like that when I knew what was taking place. I could not close my eyes or look in a mirror.

[Capt. Charlie]

I fully understand that emotions can run high in a case like this, but this could have been debated without resorting to attacking each other.

Closed, for that very reason.