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View Full Version : Collectibility of older Cab'n'ball revolvers?


Griswold
October 29, 2006, 05:10 PM
Question- Is an older, well-maintained BP revolver made in the early days (pre 1970, say) worth more than a newer counterpart in roughly equal condition but now desecrated w/warning stamps all over it? After all, many of the pioneer co's are no longer in business, and even the early production of guns by Navy Arms were marked differently. I just want to know if I'm nuts for hunting up these early Replica Arms, Centennial Arms (Belgian production), etc, at gun shows. Is there any collector value, real, growing or imagined to them?

Griswold

Steve499
October 30, 2006, 04:49 PM
I've not heard of there being any collector market for those types you mention. That being said, I would never have thought the current value on old surplus military rifles would ever get where it is today. In 1960 they were a little more than a dime a dozen, but not too much more. Sure wish I had stocked up then. Who knows, maybe we should start accumulating the old replicas for the future.

Steve

mec
October 30, 2006, 05:55 PM
not heard of any premium. what might be desirable are early replica/allenfirearms ubertis that had real bone charcoal case hardening.

BigG
October 31, 2006, 09:25 AM
real bone charcoal case hardening.

I didn't know there was any other kind. How are they finished now, if not with "real" case hardening?

I've heard about the Ruger "painted on" case hardening but have never considered owning one of that marque.

I used to drool over an old Replica Arms catalog in the 1970s but have never seen an actual Replica Arms revolver, to my knowledge. Are they marked? Who produced them? Thanks for the info!

mec
October 31, 2006, 09:50 AM
current ubertis use some sort of cyanide process. Looks fine but not quite as vibrant as the older finishes.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=46571&d=1161226929

current:
http://usera.imagecave.com/mec/1860army25duelistsm.jpg
On the other hand, current lock parts seem to be much better than in the past

Griswold
October 31, 2006, 08:58 PM
BigG - The Replica Arms Company was headquartered out of Marietta, Ohio, and their guns were marked "Replica Arms/Marietta, Ohio" in 2 lines, on the barrel lug near the wedge on the Colt patterns that I've seen (Paterson, Walker,Dragoon and Navy). I speculate they eventually were folded into Navy Arms, but don't know for sure. Of those I have seen, most bear the diamond FAP mark of Pietta, but a few may bear the DGG marking of Armi San Paulo (Euroarms). I do not recall seeing any Uberti/Replica Arms combinations from this era, as Uberti may have been more deeply committed to Navy Arms at this time.

BigG
November 2, 2006, 04:28 PM
Thank you, guys. The only repro revo I have right now is a Signature Series 3rd Model Dragoon from Colt. It's got pretty good looking case hardening, to me, and that old deep Colt high polished blue on the blue parts.

I do have an old original 1860 vintage pocket .31 Model 1849, but the finish has turned brown on that bad boy. :uhoh: :)

MEC - I bought and read your BP Pistol & Revo book and enjoyed it immensely. Are the springs in that little 1849 the same as the larger Colt SAs like the SAA, 1860 Army, 1851 Navy? I'm looking for either hand or trigger/bolt type springs. Thanks in advance, bud!

mec
November 2, 2006, 04:48 PM
The 49 pocket models are smaller than the others. The 51 Navy, the 60 army, the 61 Navy and the single action army generally do interchange. You can usually find the specific springs and other parts at VTIgunparts.

BigG
November 2, 2006, 07:25 PM
Thanks, MEC. !! :)

I followed your directions on how to disassemble a Colt revo and found that the hand was incorrectly assembled or had slipped off the press fit plug (arbor) that fits in the hammer. I pressed it back on, reassembled and it carries up like a reg'lar ole Colt. Good enough for a ~ 140 year old Colt, anyway! :D

I feel like getting some paraphernalia and making some smoke with this ole smokepole. :)

BigG
November 2, 2006, 07:55 PM
MEC and friends - here is a pic or two of my 1849 Pocket Model Colt. It works, after 140 some years. :eek:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i115/BigG_photos/Picture19031.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i115/BigG_photos/Picture19030.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i115/BigG_photos/Picture19028.jpg

mec
November 2, 2006, 11:16 PM
"(arbor) that fits in the hammer. I pressed it back on, reassembled and it carries up like a reg'lar... "

If it doesn't want to stay tight, a dab of j&b weld might do the trick. The trigger /bolt spring for a modern uberti will probably fit and it's likely that the lock work will be close enough to modify for a fit.

bprevolver
November 24, 2006, 01:38 PM
I would invite everyone who is interested in the modern production of percussion revolvers to visit the web site of the Replica Percussion Revolver Collector's Association at: http://rprca.tripod.com

Contray to previous posts the replica percussion revolver is probably the fastest growing collectable firearm at this time. Appreciation is more than 80% in the last ten years. The RPRCA has an international membership. The web site averages over 200 hits a day (shows some interest).

There is a book forthcoming: "Replica Percussion Revolvers-A Collectors's Guide". This book has been in research for over ten years. There are some limited productions of certain replicas that are are already in the four figure value catagory.

Reasons for the interest is the number of importers and manufacturers who are no longer in the business leaving a collectable firearm behind. There is no restriction on these guns (they can even be mailed). A very impressive collection can be built for a fraction of the cost of an original. I recently attended the Tulsa Expo gun show, one of the largest in the country. There were literally thousands of original revolvers on the market. I have kept accurate count of the guns for the last ten years of attending this and other shows. This last show there were fewer than fifty replica revolvers for sale.

Griswold
November 27, 2006, 09:11 PM
I have been to that website, and even attempted to sign on through their membership form, but nothing ever changes there. They've had two guns listed as sold, yet on display there forever, with a number of toy guns that shouldn't be there at all. I could understand "keeping" the example of the personal presentation piece from Mr. Pietta, if there were more available background presented, and better photos with it. Indeed, that appears to be one of the major flaws of the site, as the photos of the guns listed seem distant and uninformative, which is a shame, given the diversity of the collection displayed. Granted, as to sheer numbers, it's an interesting assortment, but the format lacks the flexibility of some other sites. Perhaps Tripod is not the best platform for this site? I do agree that more needs to be preserved about the early days of these guns, as with the early Alcan Old Model Pocket Colts, the early Uberti's, Centennial Arms, Replica Arms, etc. Personally, I'm just a poor collector and can only note what passes thru my hands. - Griswold

bprevolver
February 2, 2007, 06:53 PM
Due to some remarks by a previous poster, I feel a rebuttal is in order

I am the founder of the Replica Percussion Revolver Collector's Association, founded over twelve years ago on the internet. I have been a collector of firearms since I was 11yrs old and bought my first .22cal Mossberg Model 46B rifle (still have that gun). I am now 72yrs old and still collecting. I built the largest collection of Model 1911-1911A1 pistols in the U.S. in the early 1960's. Everyone told me I was stupid because they would never be collectable or worth much. Too many made. We can all see where that went.

It is for this and other reasons that I do not pay much attention to armchair critics who have great opinions but have never really done anything original in their life’s. I am also the retired Department Head of Computer Science and Engineering Technology from Texas A&M University, West Texas Campus, so I do know a little about computers. Mr. Griswold is quick with his opinions but very shallow with suggestions. Maybe that is because he has none. If he was unable to join the association, then it is because he could not fill out the application properly. Over one thousand members, internationally, were able to do this okay. The purpose of the web site was to see if there was an interest in the collectability of these firearms and to share information. It was not to “sell” guns. At one time there were over five pages of collectable guns on the site and all sold. The others were left for display. The RPRCA has over 700 guns in its collection that "have passed through their hands", so there is some basis in fact, not speculation, that went into the displays on the web site, including the "toys" that many people enjoy. They still promote interest so have a place.

Since I finance this venture personally I see no reason to pay anyone for a “domain”, a “server”, or any other trimmings that egotist think they need to be “acceptable”. The Tripod domain is a part of the Microsoft empire as is Hotmail and will not go away as other servers come and go, causing changes of address. This web site, http://rprca.tripod.com has been at the same address for twelve years. It would be shear stupidity to change it’s URL when the site has over 500,000 hits (more than most manufacturers) in that twelve year period.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion posters may have.

mec
February 2, 2007, 07:39 PM
I found it interesting to learn about the collector's interest in the replicas.

pohill
February 2, 2007, 07:49 PM
Nice gun there, Big G. Real nice. I was looking at an original 1849 .31 in Maine the other day - they wanted $4999.00. If I had it (moola), I'd have it (gun). And you actually shoot it? As we used to say in the 70's...in the 70's...damn, I can't remember what we used to say. Anyways, great gun. Bet it has some stories to tell...
P.S. Mec's book is Da Balls (translate - great book)

Old Dragoon
February 3, 2007, 04:24 PM
Very Nice original and in great shape. I cannot afford to collect guns to hang them on the wall or take up safe room. Hence if I can't shoot them, then I can't buy them. Here are two of my newest oldies One is a gunsmith Conversion that now sports an R & D conversion cylinder, the the other is an Armory Conversion, both guns were issued in the Civil War. The first one even has O.W. Ainsworth Sub Inspector Marks. Yep he inspected Remingtons as well in later years Colts. Perhaps someday our Ainsworth Inspected Remy's will be as valuable as Ainsworth inspected Colts....

Gunsmith Conversion with Ainsworth Sub Inspectors marks
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c83/1Old6Dragoon1/RemingtonGunsmithConversion-1.jpg

Armory Conversion with Sub Inspector marks
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c83/1Old6Dragoon1/RemingtonArmoryConversion-2.jpg

Steve499
February 3, 2007, 05:31 PM
Howdy, Dragoon, thought something ate you!

Tell about those two a little more. What cartridge, how you found them, etc.

Steve

Old Dragoon
February 3, 2007, 08:55 PM
nope not et yet...LOL been working every day and playing little, but haven't been able to get to the computer as it was in my landlords home until we set up WIFI. so now I have accesss 24-7.
I promised myself a retirement present and I want another original Remy Conversion, cuz I had to to sell my last one sometime back(a few Years). So I began to look and the first one had been on GB for some time on and off, so I bid the minimum on it and I got it. It has drilled thru BP cylinder for 44 Martin or Frankford Arsenal, it isn't 44 Rem. Colt as the 44 colt brass rims slide into the chamber...BOO_HISS, I do not want to alter the original C & B cylinder because it still has the sub inspector mark near one Safety notch. I got an almost new Uberti 45 LC conversion cylinder and now she rocks.

I'm selling the R & D 45 LC because I found a couple new 44 Rem/Colt 44 C.F. R & D conversion cylinders and one is in the mail as I type this. I didn't know R & D made the 44 Colt(.451 Dia outside lubed bullet) type Conversion, but the two I found are just that.

I didn't really intend to buy the two origianls, Because I wanted the second one but didn't have the cash the first time it came up(minutes after I had bid on the other one) (Doesn't it just happen that way). So I had to wait for weeks to raise the money(Sold all my Euroarms and my Uberti Carbine too) hoping that it would not sell. It didn't, until I could "Buy It NOW"!

It will be here Tuesday. In those few weeks I had spoken for another and it was sold out from under me. Bummer!, but in the end I got the one I wanted.
The second one is an armory Conversion in 44 C.F. with all the sub inspector marks, like the first, only nor Ainsworth. Both were issued during the Civil War and saw action afterwards during period of use. Both have very good rifling, The first one has the best, sharpest,and deepest rifling I have seen on an original. The guy told me the second one has sharp rifling as well and is supposedly an 80% gun. We'll see.

Have you heard anything of the Rmeington Kid, it's been nigh onto a year since I saw a post of his. Hope he's OK.

MPP1423
February 9, 2007, 11:13 PM
Steve&old Dragoon,

Its Been Some Time Now But I Have Had A Lot Happen In The Past Year Or So That Has Kept Me Busy.im No Longer A Police Officer,thanks God!! Not The Job To Have Today!i Was Wondering About Mike As Well(rem Kid).i Attempted To Send Him An Email And It Was Returned.i Do Hope He Is Well!what About You Guys?

Old Dragoon
February 10, 2007, 12:05 AM
I heard from the Rem. Kid last week. He has a tough year too. ongoing health problems and Etc. and he said he'd be back online shortly. Glad to see you back too. Old home week I guess. I haven't been here for a long time either. Glad you're back, Did you get to take your hunting trip?

I have retired, but still doing some partime Equine services and pet sitting around town, keeping me busier than I want right now, but that's life I guess...P.S. it helps buy the toys like the ones oictured....LOL

Old Dragoon
February 10, 2007, 12:07 AM
Before I forget. You need to hook up wirth Sundance 44's he lives in MS., Just south of Memphis.

MPP1423
February 10, 2007, 01:58 AM
Dragoon,
I Did Get To Take My Trip To Colorado And Was Able To Take A 650lb Cow Elk At 49 Yrds With My Bow.i Was Very Happy.i Sure Hope Rem Is Doing Better!i Still Shoot My 58's When Time Permits But I Have Also Added 2 1851 44's To My Collection.so Now I Have 2 Colts (repo's),3 1858's,1 1863 31 Cal,and My Ruger Old Army.im Glad To Be Back And Hope To Share And Receive Tips Again.i've Shot Bp Pistols For Many Years But I Picked Up My Best Info Here From You Guys That Really Know Your Stuff!

l.cutler
February 10, 2007, 06:15 AM
Is there a listing of makers marks to identify manufacturer on the repro revolvers? I recently picked up a brass framed .36 sort of Colt Navy type, but with round barrel. It was cheap and couldn't pass it up. I found a listing of proof mark dates, and mine dates to 1973 but what appears to be the manufacturers mark is just a circle with odd squiggly lines in it.

Old Dragoon
February 10, 2007, 01:42 PM
Would those odd Squiggly lines resemble a rifle bore?

l.cutler
February 10, 2007, 02:44 PM
No, but on looking further in the bottom of the circle are what appear to be a v notch sight with a front sight lined up in it. I don't know how to describe the lines above the sights, a little like RR but kind of squiggly and out of shape. Sure wish I had some way to post a picture!