Stay put or go investigate?

[hawken50]

ok, let me start off by saying i don't want to know what you'd do. i want to know what you think i should do. i'm 25, and in ok shape. i'm a veteran but never saw combat. (Go Navy!) i am not an leo. not a black belt. not a sniper. although i would like to think i'm a pretty good shot with a rifle, i'm probably just an average shot with a pistol. i have had training with a pistol but the navy dosen't put a big emphsis on sidearms with it's hole snipes (engineers). i have a flashlight, a 40 s&w pistol and a couple spare mags in a small safe next to my nightstand. also keep in mind i live in ny.

so considering all that, if i was awoken one night to the sounds of someone breaking into my house, what should i do? obviously grab the gun. obviously call the cops. obviously get the wife and daughter barracaded in one room. but then what? sit and wait? sneek downstairs and investigate? yell out "i'm armed so youd better clear out!"? what if i couldn't reach the police? wait untill all sounds ok?

just looking for opinions.

[tlm225]

Per your scenario (known break-in in progress) sit tight, prepare to defend your position from intruder. Even if (or especially if) police cannot be summoned your primary duty/responsibility is to protect your loved ones from harm. By venturing out you risk ambush by intruders. Clearing a residence is difficult enough for two trained officers, let alone doing it solo. As for shouting a warning I see it as a toss up, on the one hand they may flee. On the other hand you just gave away your position.

[Maxprime]

It's a situational-call. I'm in bed by myself and someone is knocking stuff over in my living room or I hear a window break/door open? I'm going out cocked and locked and ready. If I'm in bed with wife, etc. and no one else to protect - I stay put with her and wait for someone to open the door. If there are others to protect, I do my duty.

Basically, no point in bringing others into harm in the situation. If you go out and get shot stopping a robber, you are the only one that suffers if no one else is involved. But if a robber shoots you because you're armed, he'll probably go hot on anyone else he sees in the house. Determine who's at risk here and make an educated call.

[zulustyle]

Howdy,
Just out of curiosity do you own a dog(s)? The reason I ask is because my child sleeps in a different room than my wife and I. What I would do is grab my weapon, let the dogs out of our bedroom,cautiously make my way to my daughter's bedroom' and put her in the master bathroom with my wife who by that time has hopefully been able to contact 911. I feel that owning a dog would be a valuble assest/deterent/safeguard in regards to a break-in and or home invasion.

[chris in va]

You're gonna want to hear from someone in NY on this. Each state has various laws concerning what you can/can't do in this situation.

For example, TX let's you shoot someone stealing your property. Other states make you run and hide in your own house first before defending your life.

Yet other states won't let you do anything legally until the BG actually comes at you with a threatening manner. Basically all you can do is stand there dialing 911 while he cleans your house out. Then again, there's always the Southpark "it's coming right for us!" thing.

[jdberger]

Stay put. Call cops. Defend the family. Keep a cell phone by the bed. You may recall that the BTK guy that they just caught in Kansas liked to cut the phone lines before he went in.

Just remember to stay put. If you can, lock the door of the room that you are in. NO JURY, not even the idiots that make it onto juries in my neck-o-the-woods, is going to convict a man if 1) he can't retreat further, 2) he is defending his family, 3) he is in a locked room that someone had to break into to get to him, 4) he made every effort to contact the police. You might get charged, but won't get convicted.

Then again, you might get convicted for not having a safety device on the gun you were holding... :D

[LAK]

Indeed, someone from NY is going to have to address the legal matters - some states I believe require you to leave your house if possible before you use deadly force.

I know it sounds awfully mercenary to those who are very attached to their pets; but a good, protectively-inclined watch dog in the house will, in the worse case scenario wake everyone one up in the house to the fact that someone is trying to get in, and ultimately even if an intruder(s) kills the dog, buy enough time to gather everyone into one defensive point.

Most of the time a barking medium to large dog will discourage all but the most intent in gaining access to the inside of your home. If someone breaks in with your dog barking mad and attacking them, either overcomes or kills your dog, you know that you have a real problem and what can be assumed to be an imminent deadly threat.

I would refrain from shouting warnings to an unknown house guest. There may be more than one, and as soon as you open your mouth they have a good idea where you are.

As far as clearing your own home, I do not think it is beyond the sensible capabilities of the average person as long as they are prepared - have a plan - and have taken steps to make sure their castle is fortified and laid out to their advantage.

Making the dwelling as difficult to break into as possible, the goal should be that no one can gain entry without making sufficient noise to wake everyone up, and that even with substantial tools this noisemaking process will give you a minute or two to react.

A search on keyword "clearing" on this forum should give you plenty of food for thought.

[jburtonpdx]

I like the idea of locking the door with the family baracaded inside with me... I make sure and have a cell phone handy all the time now, even at home. No lines for any BG to cut that way. I treat it like my gas tank, never let it get below half charge.

If you had 911 on the line (recording the call as they always do) and were to shout "I fear for my life and will shoot you if you come through that door" (make sure you sound convincing) that just might be a good piece of evidence to bring to your defence. It is possible the dispatcher will want to stay on the line with you till LEO arrives as soon as they know you have a firearm. This way they can tell you the good guys are in the house.

The room in my house I have choose for this would put the line of fire basically into a hill near my house if I did have to fire... That entire, responsible for anything the bullet hits thing made me make a choice like that...

[Tamara]

Bunker up, and get the cops on the cell phone.

I would refrain from shouting warnings to an unknown house guest. There may be more than one, and as soon as you open your mouth they have a good idea where you are.

Me whispering on cellphone: "Sshhh! There's a man with a gun in my house."
911 Operator: "What's that, ma'am? Speak up! There's a band on the run with your spouse?"

I don't know about you, LAK, but I'm not going to be exactly whispering to the 911 operator, so, unless the intruder(s) are deaf as posts, they're going to hear me telling the person on the other end of the line to "Hurry up and get somebody here, because I'd really rather not have to shoot anybody..." :o

[sean85746]

Were I you...I would gather the wife and kids into your primary defensive location. We have already chosen my daughter's bedroom, so we only have to transit the hallway one time.

My wife will be armed with her Remington 870 12 guage backed up with her 3" .38. I will have my Glock 17L with tactical light and 33 round mag sticking out of it (wife bought it, why not use it?), and OUR CELL PHONE in case the phone lines have been cut. All my other guns are locked in a Browning Gun Safe, so...the BG arming himself with a gun from the master bedroom is not a consideration.

By this time, I will be wondering why our rottweiler hasn't eaten whomever has invaded our little castle. If anyone without a badge comes into the hallway (shooting gallery)...they will need a coroner.

Amen Tamara...also the slide racking on the 12 guage should also be a dead giveaway that someone's butt is about to leap out of the frying pan into the fire.

[jtkwon]

Don't go looking for them. All advantages go to the person who remains fairly well covered and concealed, and it's a real disadvantage to go through any doorway or walk down any hallway. They call them fatal funnels for a reason.

Personally, I don't plan on a loud phone call, racking a slide, or making any noise to let them know I'm there - you then hand them the opportunity to improvise a tactic that may well work on attacking you (like setting your house on fire with you in it).

My pistol is always loaded, always with a round chambered. So no noise until it goes boom.

[Tamara]

Personally, I don't plan on a loud phone call, racking a slide, or making any noise to let them know I'm there - you then hand them the opportunity to improvise a tactic that may well work on attacking you (like setting your house on fire with you in it).

Where do you live?!?!?

Around here, burglars and armed robbers are after stuff. If they just wanted to burn the house down, they wouldn't bother going in first. :rolleyes:


Hey, folks, this shouldn't be a news flash, but 99.9999999999999999% of the time, when the nighttime intruder realizes that there is an awake, armed, homeowner on the horn with the heat, he's gonna split. Be prepared for contingencies, okay, fine; but basing your home defense scenarios around an invasion by SWAPO guerrillas when you live in Dubuque is kinda drawing to an inside straight, don'tcha think?

[dolanp]

Sheesh people. Get an alarm system! Dogs are a good deterrent but having a house alarm that will go wailing when someone breaks in is a better one. Put the sign in your yard and the stickers on your windows. Robbers are typically going to take the path of least possible resistance. If it's some deranged psycho rapist/killer, he'll still probably run away at the sound of an alarm but if not then you'll be prepared to react.

[gb_in_ga]

Speaking of alarm systems, what about those of us (like me) that have them? Can I assume that anyone who ignores the alarm is that much more of a threat? If they ignore the signs and the window stickers and the alarm itself and are still coming in, I'd say so. The setup I have makes it unnecessary to call 911 -- the alarm system does it for us. Actually, the police call us, not the other way around. And I don't have to worry about the phone lines being cut, as we have underground utilities here -- including phone, and the alarm system happens to have it's own backup power just in case. All in all, it is a pretty good setup.

[TallPine]

Our big black mutt usually sleeps downstairs. What she would do if someone broke in is up to question, but at the minimum she would knock them down and lick them :p

We all sleep upstairs. Until the twins leave home, there are three more dogs in their room including a Belgian Mal :cool:. A 15 watt florescent light burns all the time near the foot of the stairs.

My plan - should we ever actually have an invasion - is to take a stand at the top of the stairs with a rifle, while hollering out for my daughter to release her Mal.

Depending on the sound of things, I may or may not go downstairs to rescue an invader from the dogs. :D

We have no cell phone service at our place, and a deputy response is at least 30-45 minutes (or more) away. If lucky, might get HP before then depending on where he/she is cruising at the time, but still we are 10 miles from the hiway.

[Bic]

Tamara

Thankyou!! I was starting to question what part of the planet I was on

[InToItTRX]

Gather your weapon and family all go to 1 room you have pre selected, and call the cops. They should arrive quite quickly as long as you mention to 911 that your in danger and their is someone in your home, sometimes it helps to mention you have children believe it or not. If for some reason you decided to go investigate check your local laws. Here in Arizona if you shoot someone for stealing items from your home you can get in quite a bit of trouble with the law, and will probably face jail time. You may only shoot them if you feel your life is in danger, not if their walking out the door with your TV set. New York might be different however. In Arizona you can threaten deadly force if someone is stealing your stuff, but you could not act on it. No matter where you are that is what insurance is for, so let them steal stuff. Protect your family!

An alarm system is an excellent idea, it will give you a few extra seconds to gather your weapon and family, and will also call the police for you, given the lines are not cut. A dog is even better; I have a German Shepherd who will let me know when a car or person is coming up the driveway. He will bark and let out quite a vicious growl. If it did not scare off anyone then the burglar is quite stupid!

[USP45usp]

they're going to hear me telling the person on the other end of the line to "Hurry up and get somebody here, because I'd really rather not have to shoot anybody..."

Yuppers, the same here :).

I don't have any dogs (used to) and only a cat but she is protective (she has attacked people that she didn't know).

I have a safe room, which is my bedroom. It's an old house so it has thick, heavy oak doors, not the hollowed out ones that you will find in homes now days. I installed a dead bolt on it right in the middle (it has no handle or knob on either side to turn). Of course you have to remember to put the key side to the outside of the bedroom :o (Yes, I put it in backward the first time).

My cell and my .45 is on the night stand. My shotgun is under the bed and my AR is in the corner.

Wayne

[jtkwon]

Tamara, I have a stalker. He's my wife's ex-husband. And stalking warrants and protective orders are nearly useless.

He's already burned me out of one home. He's not a burglar.

[Guy B. Meredith]

I am glad this question came up as it has made me think that I might want to alter my plans for such incidents.

For those of you in California, you need to be aware that using a cell phone actually causes delay. All cell phone calls are handled by CHP who, in turn, contact the local LE.

Might want to check with the local officers, but my reading of the CA laws says that use of deadly force against persons "unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred..." makes it a good shoot.

[F350Lawman]

There are too many variables. Because of my house's layout and where my children sleep, going to the source and having the conflict there is the only "good" option. For you the circumstances may be different

Just for starters:.

1. how confident are you that once you get there you are equipped (in all ways) to handle the task at hand

2. how far away is help ( if you stay put and call for help will the police likely take 2 minutes or 15??)

3. can you get the rest of the family together safely and bring them to your holdup spot without getting caught by surprise by the BG

4. if you stay where you are, is it a good place to defend

5. what's the backstop where you hear the sound like (if he's breaking in a window or door, where will his and your misses go if you engage there? Is that better than possibly shooting it out where you are?)

6. does it sound like it could be more than one BG?

I think in the end your going to nmost likely do what your personality dictates. If your the cautious, lie in wait type of guy you'll more likely go for that option. If your the aggressive, "the best defense is a good offense" type you'll go for that. No real wrong or right answer until the siruation arises and you can ascertain all the variables. Maybe you should have a plan for both options. JMHO

DON'T FORGET TELL THE POLICE WHAT YOU ARE WEARING AND THAT YOU ARE ARMED IF IT GOES BAD YOU DON'T WANT THE REPONDING OFFICERS TO BARGE INTO YOUR GUN BATTLE AND SHOOT YOU. YOUR DESCRIPTION WILL HELP TO AVOID THIS

[hawken50]

yes i do have a dog, and i have no doubt that he would kill or die to protect me and my family. however the more i think about it the less i like the idea of using him for home defense. my dog, although very large and very intimidating to strangers, is not a trained attack dog. he is the family pet. he is under my care and deserves my protection. (the priority would still definatly be my wife and child). so i think the best place for him would be in the bedroom w/ wife and daughter while i take post at the top of the stairs. that said, where he is when thing's go bump in the night is pretty much up for grabs, so an intruder will have more to fear from him than me.

thanks for all the input.

[Dwight55]

Hawken, . . .

Motion activated lights are fairly inexpensive, and can be wired back to your bedroom so when you go to bed at night, you activate the circuits to them. Bg comes in, . . . moves, . . . lights come on, . . .

Maybe bg leaves, . . .

If you have view of downstairs, . . . you have bg located

BUT MOST IMPORTANT, . . . forget about your "stuff" down there. Your family is first, their safety (and yours) is paramount. Program your sheriff's number, . . . the local PD's number, . . . the State Police or Highway Patrol, . . . like another poster mentioned, . . . don't call 911. Call the ones you need, . . . but call them and wait for them to do their job.

I like Tamara's idea of telling the operator in a loud voice that you are armed, there is an intrusion, and you wish the boys in blue would hurry so you don't have to shoot anyone. Then prepare to shoot, . . . but from the position of defending your bedroom from a bg invader.

May God bless,
Dwight

[zulustyle]

Howdy,
We have a friend that installs alarm systems for a living. He said often times the best defense is a dog. The problem with a lot of alarm systems is often times people don't use them on a consistant basis. Depending on the sensetivity of the alarm they can go off rather easily. Just 2 weeks ago one of my co-workers recieved a call while at work from the monitoring company for his alarm system. He was told that one of his motion sensors had registered movement and caused an alarm to be activated. He was told the police were contacted as well.....Long story made short the actual culprit turned out to be a boquet of Valentine day balloons which faltered just enough to register motion in an otherwise empty room.
From personal expirence I had a run in with an overly sensitive alarm a few years back. I was able to come home one day early on leave and thought I would surprise my mom. I took a cab to her house and knocked on the door. Next thing I know an alarm system that I was totally unaware of goes off. so there I am on the porch alarm going off and waiting. The cops showed up and I explained the situation...Thank God I was in uniform. Not faulting the cops at all, but they throughly made sure of who I was and got in contact with my mom prior to her arriving home to make sure I was legit. They also stayed on the scene until my mom got there.
Becuase of the afore mentioned I know a lot of people use their alarm systems selectively.

[lcgriff]

Funny you ask this question because I just asked my father-in-law this question and he is a police chief. Make sure you know the laws of your state. Know when it is okay to use lethal force and when its not. According to statistics, most intruders are unarmed, looking for something to steal, and will leave pronto if they know someone is in the home. If you can see the intruder before he sees you and you see that he has a gun, its best to shoot first and ask questions later. I would stay put and let them know to get out or you'll shoot.

[gb_in_ga]

Zulustyle:

Yes, you do have a point there. For that matter, our motion sensor has been notorious about giving false alarms (we have 3 cats), to the point that it never gets activated, so we rely on the door and window sensors instead.

[JohnKSa]

I've heard it said that attempting to clear a house by yourself is known in LEO circles as "Looking for a bullet."

[Nnobby45]

Every instructor at every training program I've every went thru, along with every book written by knowledgeable people I've ever read says:

1. House clearing by yourself is pure suicide. You simply don't have eyes in the back of your head. ( A few years ago I read that only one student at the Gunsite Training Center had ever survived the Fun House and didn't "get killed")

2. If a family member is being hurt, then God be with you as you run into a possible ambush to try and help them (as you likely will). I like the go in real fast approach, personally.

3. By all means take up a defensive position and let the intruder be the one to commit suicide by coming to you.

You can't call the police everytime you hear what's probably just the cat,or something explainable, making a noise. You may need to investigate just to insure yourself that everything is ok.

TIP: Electronic hearing protectors can amplify sound so you can hear a flatulated mouse at 10yds. Be careful. :D

[Tamara]

I've heard it said that attempting to clear a house by yourself is known in LEO circles as "Looking for a bullet."

"Attempting to safely clear a typical residential structure solo is about as safe as trying to snatch a marble off the bottom of a running Cuisinart." :eek:

[The Body Bagger]

get yourself an AR with a bunch of 30rd mags loaded with lightweight 35-45 grain ballistic tips.....you hear some noise, just start firing (spray and pray).....and in the morning you can walk out into the living room and see it was just your Glade Air Fresher fan kicking on......

[LAK]

Tamara,

As far as phone calls, I can generally make myself clearly understood without raising my voice. My experience with professional dispatchers is that they are generally quite cool and casual on the phone, and I think it is conducive to good communication if the caller is as well. I was really referring to the idea of shouting a warning directed at any intruder "somewhere inside".

[jdberger]

Just a quick story about a personal experience.

When I was a younger lad, I didn't have much money and usually lived in mildly sketchy areas of town. I'd had the occasional intruder before - as much my fault for not locking the door as it was theirs for being too drunk to know which apartment they were walking into.

Anyway, somewhat later I was living in a different place, in a studio apartment. I was working in a pawnshop at the time, there was always the possibility that one of my customers had managed to figure out where I lived so I kept a pistol and a shotgun near the bed.

One late night, I woke to a huge loud sound like someone sawing away at my back door. Being that it was a teeny apartment, I figured that I could clear it myself (small box with kitchenette and bathroom). I grabbed the shotgun and crawed out of bed.

The shotgun was a Franchi SPAS 12 with the nifty folding stock. For those unfamiliar, a serious BFG. Honestly, it weighed 10 pounds unloaded.

I realize that the sound is coming from the kitchenette - it is really loud. Adrenaline is dumping into my body, I'm getting tunnel vision - all the fight/flight responses.

I round the half corner to the kitchenette and flick on the light. Out of a closed bag of Lays Potato Chips jumps a mouse which zips down the counter and into a gap between the stove and the wall. Thank goodness I didn't have the finger on the trigger. The first round in that pig was 00. It could have done some serious bad things to my stove.

So...I guess, no moral here. Just an amusing story.

The mouse did come back, but he had a fatal mishap with a trap.

j

:)

[kennybs plbg]

I don't think the question was of legal action, it was more ethical. The #1 priority is to protect the family and yourself. If you have an intruder in the home and if "YOU" feel your life or your family is in danger you have the right to waste him.

kenny b

[accordingtome]

. :eek:

[Tamara]

The first round in that pig was 00. It could have done some serious bad things to my stove.

Wouldn't've done the mouse any good, either. :D

[Derius_T]

Although it has already been said quite a few times, don't try to clear the house yourself. The only way you leave your defensive position is if you have to get to another family member. Go fast, stay low, and God be with you.

1st priority is to get all the family members behind you so to speak, hopefully in a room with one access point that can be covered. Get on the horn to PD right away. (Some may call me paranoid, but I keep a cell phone on the nightstand, JUST IN CASE that highly trained team of elite ninjas has the foresight to cut my phone lines) :D

My house is tough, with kids being on pther end of house, but thats why I have a surly old chow and a 200lb english mastiff. (I don't think the big old mastiff would ever hurt a fly, but GOD HE'S BIG, and scares the holy crap out of anyone who sees him, the chow on the other hand, is cranky, old, and just plain mean when it comes to anyone not in his "pack".)

[kennybs plbg]

NYS Penal Law, S 35.20 as followes:

3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other
person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or
terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.

It's what is in the mind of the person at the time of the shooting. It boils down to what the person thought or was thinking. A jury must judge by what the person was thinking at the time by being in his shoes. Not what they believe to be right or wrong themselves. As I said before it boils down to what "YOU" believe at the time it happens.

kenny b

[jdberger]

Wouldn't've done the mouse any good, either.

Mouse was WAY too fast and me with sleepy eyes and all that. What was so amazing is the huge amount of NOISE the little varmint was making while snacking on my Lays!

I agree that clearing your own house isn't the best idea, but since it was such a small place (500 sq. ft.) and the Murphy bed was right in the middle, my six was clear and I only had to low look around the corner to the kitchenette. There really wasn't a very good place to barricade myself.

[hawken50]

thanks for all the advice. although i wasn't talking about legal repercussions, i appriciate that too. my main concern was what would be safer for my loved ones. taking the fight to the intruder (let's just say it's a crazy hell bent on murder) or letting him come to me, and thus closer to my loved ones. i don't remember who posted it but i think the logic of "if you go to him and get shot, then who protects your family?" rings true. better to stay in an already secure area and not get jumped from behind.

one question about clearing your own house though. i would think because you know your own house, even in the dark, this would give you all the advantages over and intruder whos already tripped over something and woke you up.

i think i'll stick with stay put though

[KentuckyGuy02]

Thank God I live in KY, where if someone enters your apartment/home at night then you have the right to pull the trigger.

[Derius_T]

Hawken50 wrote:

one question about clearing your own house though. i would think because you know your own house, even in the dark, this would give you all the advantages over and intruder whos already tripped over something and woke you up.

You may know the house, but does that really give you alot of advantage? Worth staking your life on? So intruder has tripped, woke you up, and is now on HIGH ALERT! (if he doesn't run) If its a guy intent to kill you and family, not just rob you, now he's more cautious. Maybe he holes up somewhere where he can see you coming and suprises you? You never know. You can't see everywhere at once. What if there is more than one? Some work in pairs/groups. IMHO, best thing to do would be secure family, secure area, call LEO's, and be ready for a firefight if anything breaks through where you have barricaded yourselves. Your stuff is replaceable. Your kids aren't.

[jdberger]

What if there is more than one?

Definitely a great point that has been overlooked so far. There may be more than one guy/gal.

Look, here is the deal. You are not Rambo. You cannot effectively clear a house by yourself. yoiu just can't. You can't see behind you, you can't cover all the angles at once. This isn't Doom or Quake. The Delta, FBI's HRT, local SWAT teams all train their asses off to be able to clear a room and survive and they use a 5-6 guy team.

Gather the family. Get somewhere safe. Stay put. Call the cops on your cell. Shoot anyone coming through the door who isn't calling out that they are a cop. The cops are your house clearing team, let them do their job.

You may have rights to shoot in other circumstances - but your life and the safety of your family come first. Don't let your pride get in the way of doing the right thing.

And finally, do you really WANT to shoot and kill another human being? Scumbag or goblin or badguy - you are killing someone's husband/brother/son/dad etc. That is quite the weight for your soul. Not saying that you should give a damn about all that when the goblin comes for you - then they lose thir humanity and get to learn the hard way that the instinct for survival and preservation of the clan trumps the spitiual dilemma.

My favorite president said something to the effect of "walk softly, but carry a big stick."